Say Anything Blog

I sort of knew that, because John Bolton told me.

KABOOM!!

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/bolton_bhutto_/2007/12/27/60154.html

Former U.N. ambassador John Bolton says U.S. intervention in Pakistani politics was a factor in the assassination of Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto.

“In part the United States is responsible for this by pushing (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharraf to try and cut a deal with Benazir Bhutto, by encouraging her to go back in the country, by trying to act like we could have a democratic election campaign in a situation with great instability,” Bolton told the Fox News Channel this afternoon.

“I think the notion that by bringing Benazir Bhutto back to Pakistan we could facilitate moving to a Democratic system has obviously turned out to be incorrect.”

He said he thinks “this tragedy should guide us now as to what we do next, which I think ought to be declaring a time-out on internal politics; let’s re-stabilize, it probably will require a period of martial law.” “But let’s keep our eyes on the prize. For the United States, that’s the security of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons.”

“Let’s not forget either the failed assassination attempt against (former Pakistani Prime Minister) Nawaz Sharif today.” “So it’s obviously the intention of somebody, if those attempts were linked, to throw things into greater instability. That is the circumstance under which you could have a radical Islamicist regime come to power and get control of those nuclear weapons. That’s absolutely the worst-case scenario.”

The former American ambassador to the United Nations says he has no confidence in the political leaders’ ability to secure Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal.

“The issue is who can keep secure command and control over the nuclear weapons. I don’t think any of the civilian leaders could have done that which is why I didn’t see facilitating their return to power was in U.S. interests.”

“Right now I think you’ve got the risk that the military itself will fragment. It’s possible that elements of the military were involved in this, the radical Islamicist elements, and the last thing we need to do is have a further deterioration of the situation which I think continued politicking would almost certainly bring about.”

“The idea we should be pushing Pakistan into elections next month, I think is fraught with peril for the United States,” Bolton told Fox.

© 2007 Newsmax. All rights reserved.

“I think the notion that by bringing Benazir Bhutto back to Pakistan we could facilitate moving to a Democratic system has obviously turned out to be incorrect.”

Hmm?  So the “notion” that bringing her back to Pakistan WE could facilitate moving to a Democratic system, turned out to be a bad idea....and also, we are then responsible, in part, for her death.  Hmmm?

So who’s notion is it?  The Bush Administrations maybe?  Or was it Congress’s idea that WE could FACILITATE moving to a Democratic system?  I forget.

which means they need only connect a few dots and twist a few facts to dish out the President’s daily ration of blame.

And Hannitized,…
having observed this stuff for over a decade now on the WWW, if you get your talking points and political info from Newsmax, you are going to be steered wrong many times.

I think the Enquirer has a better batting average.

I think that most of us were expecting this BDS as soon as the attack occurred

Time magazine is Bush’s fault

having observed this stuff for over a decade now on the WWW, if you get your talking points and political info from Newsmax, you are going to be steered wrong many times.

Golfman,

While you may be true about Golfmax, I selected NewsMax because I thought you guys would trust it, since you dont trust the NYT.  But here is the problem for you, I SAW AND HEARD Bolton say it this morning.  Further, I noted it the MOMENT it happened in the first post about here assassination, nobody believed me.

Now, the depravity your side will sink to in order to deny reality is a sad, sad reflection on the current mind set of the Republican party.  Your constant derangement and paranoid interpretations of media bias are mostly false and pathetically predictable.  You guys need to grow up and start being adults. 

This line of thinking Bolton is dishing out IS logical and it IS accurate.  Why don’t you try and rationalize why it is not, instead of sticking to your right-wing meme?

Time magazine is Bush’s fault

You see pparets, this is why I choose not to bother becoming a member of this blog.  It is sadly nothing more than a right-wing circle jerk.  You have idiots like this guy making snide, stupid remarks in order to be funny and a part of the “crew” instead of insightful, intelligent arguments that articulate a rational thinking why they think what the NYT said is inaccurate or wrong.

I posted an article on the FACT what Bolton said and NOBODY wants to believe reality.  Republicanism HAS become a mental disorder.  Rush Limbaugh and all the right-wing radio pundits have scared you guys stupid.  You have become sheep and your shepherds are steering you off a cliff.

Hannitized,

I think it was yesterday that I told you that after careful consideration of the facts I have arrived at the conclusion that you are a moron.

I was, of course, right. But I’d also like to point out that you have absolutely no sense of humor and your arguments are more bitter rant than rational argument.

There are people on this site I often disagree with - or who often vehemently disagree with me - ewes, Sparkie, Nieman, nalhamid, etc.... But from time to time we find ourselves agreeing on one issue or another, often to my shock.

You seem to enjoy bitterly diagreeing with just about everything. Cranky little guy (girl? dunno, can’t tell) aren’t you?

Tell you what....try posting your own thing over at the reader’s blog and see how it works out for you. Tell us what you think about things and not just what you think about our opinions.

Don’t be scared. You might enjoy it.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

It was only a matter of time before Bush got blamed for it.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

Time magazine says,

Bush is to blame for “shoving democracy down the throat of the Middle East and Muslim world”.

and says,

that Bush is to blame for not having protected Bhutto (who was pro-democracy )

so,

Bush is to blame for imposing democracy and Bush is to blame for not protecting democracy.

That is beyond stupid.

I think it was yesterday that I told you that after careful consideration of the facts I have arrived at the conclusion that you are a moron.

Pilgrim: I think you spent too much time! A cursory glance should have told you that!

For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Tell you what....try posting your own thing over at the reader’s blog

I have a better idea.  Why don’t you try, like the smart fellow you are, to explain to me why Bolton’s words are inaccurate and how they differ from the Times?  Or, if that is too difficult for you to do, why don’t you explain to me why everybody on this site is continuing to IGNORE FACTS and reality? 

Are Bolton’s words so difficult to understand?

I think it was yesterday that I told you that after careful consideration of the facts I have arrived at the conclusion that you are a moron.

Oh yes, and this conclusion was drawn because “I” am the one saying Ron Paul said it was America’s “fault”, when he didnt?  Yet, when I post an article where I show not only did Bolton say we were partly RESPONSIBLE, it is viewed by morons like Proof, that he didn’t “blame America” and insists that he merely “stated his opinion”.  Why isn’t Ron a moron?  This is a joke!

I have to hand it to you Pilgrim, you have balls and it seems to me that you think with those more so than you do that mush-burger between your ears.

Here is another challenge for you genius; Try and write in words why terrorists attack Iraqi Police and the interim government?  Just try!  Please I am begging you.

You seem to enjoy bitterly diagreeing with just about everything.

Which again, shows your lack of attention to detail.  How many posts do I actually comment on?  2 out of 10?  Does that sound like everything to you?

That minor detail aside, do I enjoy “bitterly disagreeing”?  YES!  Because many people on this site, not all, do not use their brain.  They don’t think for themselves, as proven by this post, by the Ron Paul posts and several like these.  Over half of these posts are nothing more than propaganda that merely serves the mob mentality and they fail to rationalize or intellectualize.  JUST READ THE COMMENTS.

That is why I disagree, because it defies logic not to.  The reason why I enjoy it “bitterly” is because you guys are fucking scary and a dangerous mob....without a brain.  So yes, I am bitter because somehow, someway, someone has got to do something.....so far, being polite and nice has’nt worked out.  This time I am taking a different tack and to be quite honest it is just really frustrating trying to talk to you guys rationally, youre intellectually dishonest.

Hannitized, you seem like you might be a little angry.
I honestly think it is funny that people blame bush for every little thing that happens in the world. Bush isn’t that talented.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

(not)Hannitized: Bolton said our foreign policy of advocating democracy(or self-determination with democratically-elected representative govt) was “a factor” in her death.  I’m sure there were a great many factors, but your lust to spin that into us being to blame in any way for the terrorist scum who killed her(and 20 others) is pure BDS.  Even your screen name is a lie.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

intellectually dishonest.

Well, at least he’s signing his name at the end now!

For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

I’m sure there were a great many factors, but your lust to spin that into us being to blame in any way for the terrorist scum who killed her(and 20 others) is pure BDS.

Robert,

You are starting to use your brain and you are NOW beginning to break things down logically.  Good, it’s a start in the right direction.  However, if you continue down this road you are going to meet me and therefore, I predict that you will abandon logic and reason in the very near future on this debate.  Let’s continue.

First start by defining “factor”, so that I know, you know the meaning of the word you actually tried to use. 

Now, describe what you think another factor might be?

Choose from the list below, what might apply:

1) We pushed Musharraf to negotiate and work with Bhutto
2) Condi met with Bhutto to discuss US concerns for her to work on
3) We support Bhutto’s stance against radical Islam
4) We agree with Bhutto that Musharraf is a dictator
5) They didn’t like what she stood for
6) They think Bhutto is corrupt

Feel free to ad your own “factors” if you feel I missed some important ones.

Now, to say we are responsible means what?  What do you thing Bolton meant by that? 

If you don’t answer any of my other questions, fine.  Just explain to me what you think Bolton meant when he said we are RESPONSIBLE, in part.

(not)Hannitized: In response to your self-promotion, I will give you some of mine:

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/democracy_is_the_antidote_to_terrorism

Your attempt to blame us for the actions of the terrorist scum is pathetic.  You need to learn to think clearly.  My suggestion is to stop drinking the BDS KoolAid.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

Here are some factors:

The desire of Bhutto to return to Pakistan.
The desire of the terrorist scum to kill her.
Her refusal to leave after the first assassination attempt.

The only significant factor: The desire of the terrorist scum to kill her.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

Your attempt to blame us for the actions of the terrorist scum is pathetic.  You need to learn to think clearly.

I challenge you, Robert.

I have not “blamed” us for the actions of terrorists.  John Bolton has, as has the Times.

I challenge you to answer my questions, and if you accept, we will find out which one of us actually thinks clearly.

My prediction, you do not understand the meanings or definitions to the words you use.  You do not understand the meaning of:

1) Fault
2) Blame
3) Responsible
4) Factor

Until you understand the meaning of those words, your logic is as clear as MUD.....and that is your name spelled backwards.

The only significant factor: The desire of the terrorist scum to kill her.

Accepted “a” factor and a significant one, but not as the only one.  WHY do they have a desire to kill her?  What is it about Bhutto that makes them wan’t to kill her?

Most importantly, what do you think Bolton meant when he said the US is partly responsible for her death?  And did you agree that us pushing Democracy was a factor, as you agree Bolton stated?

Just explain to me what you think Bolton meant when he said we are RESPONSIBLE, in part.

It is clear (to me at least) that Bolton does not support the US encouragement of democracy in Pakistan, because he is concerned about the fractious elements within that country. He doesn’t have confidence in any (potential) civilian leaders and the idea of Islamic leaders is abhorrent, so that just leaves Musharraf and military rule (he does in fact advocate martial law for Pakistan).

Bolton suggests that the US policy of encouraging democracy in Pakistan made them partially responsible for Bhutto’s death, but only by default, IMO.

We could also blame Musharraf for allowing her back from exile or releasing her from house arrest.

We could blame the Pakistani people for wanting democracy.

Or we could blame the religious nutballs who sanctioned the attack.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

The only significant factor: The desire of the terrorist scum to kill her.

By “only” I mean that without it, the assassination would not have happened, not matter what else is going on there.

Read the article I linked for the rest of my answers.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

John Bolton has, No, he hasn’t. He said our foreign policy was “a factor”, which is not the same as blame.  I don’t agree with him on that, btw.  You keep trying this “appeal to authority” crap on me, even though I have told you repeatedly that it isn’t persuasive with me.  I’m only swayed by the truth. as has the Times.  Pure BDS.  They blame our President for everything.  Again, your “appeal to authority” is irrelevant to me.  The Times is wrong.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

It is clear (to me at least) that Bolton does not support the US encouragement of democracy in Pakistan,

Yes, well at least at THIS TIME.  It sounds like he thinks it is unstable at the moment...and he is right...but so is Iraq.

Bolton suggests that the US policy of encouraging democracy in Pakistan made them partially responsible for Bhutto’s death, but only by default, IMO

What do you mean by default?  It’s clear to me that Bolton says we are accountable/responsible.  Here is where the grey comes in, we are not “responsible” but our actions “could be” a “factor” and a factor does not mean we are responsible.  It just means those factors could have motivated the murderous bastards to want to kill her, but they killed her and they didnt need to choose to kill her.

We could also blame Musharraf for allowing her back from exile or releasing her from house arrest.

You can “blame” a lot of things, but in order for it to stick, you have to look at fault and where do the faults lye?

Or we could blame the religious nutballs who sanctioned the attack.

Yes, because they actually are responsible for the act.  Regardless of what motivated them, THEY are responsible, THEY get the blame and THEY are at fault. 

Any description of what motivated them is beside the point.  Because motivation didn’t kill her, decisions to act did.  That is why when you describe what motivated them to kill doesnt make you a blame America person.  Saying we are responsible DOES.

No, he hasn’t. He said our foreign policy was “a factor”,

Yes, he did!  And I told you not to use the word FACTOR until you looked it up. 

which is not the same as blame.

He said WE ARE “PARTLY RESPONSIBLE” as well.  Do you know what “BLAME” means??  Here, let me provide the definition for you SINCE YOU CANT THINK CLEARLY!!  I told you that you didnt know the definitions of the words you use.

Blame: to hold responsible; find fault with; censure: I don’t blame you for leaving him.

What did Bolton say?

“In part the United States is responsible for this by pushing (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharraf to try and cut a deal with Benazir Bhutto, by encouraging her to go back in the country, by trying to act like we could have a democratic election campaign in a situation with great instability,”- John Bolton

So, what did Bolton say was we were responsible for?  Answer:  Pushing Musharraf to cut a deal with Benazir.  THAT, was the FAULT that causes him to use the word RESPONSIBLE that is directly related to BLAME.

If he merely said it was a factor, that led the murderers to kill her, then he is only stating the cause in their distorted minds that made them choose to act.  Then and only then would he not be blaming them.  Therefore, he BLAMED AMERICA.  Therefore, RON PAUL DID NOT BLAME AMERICA.  Get it?

I don’t agree with him on that, btw.  You keep trying this “appeal to authority” crap on me, even though I have told you repeatedly that it isn’t persuasive with me.  I’m only swayed by the truth

If that were the case you would agree with me, because I just spelled it out and you are denying the truth.

Pure BDS.  They blame our President for everything.  Again, your “appeal to authority” is irrelevant to me.  The Times is wrong.

What is BDS?  If they find fault, then it’s up to you to prove he isnt at fault.  And what do you mean by “appeal to authority”?  I doubt you are thinking or speaking clearly.

There, I just schooled your ass!!

This thread is starting to remind me of pantomime!

Oh no it isn’t!

Oh yes it is!

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

What is BDS? Bush Derangement Syndrome. If they find fault, then it’s up to you to prove he isnt at fault. No, the burden of proof is on the accuser. And what do you mean by “appeal to authority”? That’s what you do when you try to use someone else’s words instead of making a logical argument with your own thinking. I already told you sI don’t agree with Bolton. I doubt you are thinking or speaking clearly.

There, I just schooled your ass!! You’re a high school kid, right?

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

Any description of what motivated them is beside the point. Because motivation didn’t kill her, decisions to act did. The terrorists killed her.

This is the first thing you have gotten right; maybe you should quit a winner.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

Bush Derangement Syndrome.

Oh I see.  Mature.

No, the burden of proof is on the accuser.

So here’s how it works R o b e r t.  They make an argument (that is what you read when your tummy gets upset and before you yell “BDS”, like the mature adult you are) and after you read it, you make a COUNTER ARGUMENT.  You don’t simply stomp your foot and call them Blame America Crowd, Socialists or whatever it is you guys do.

That’s what you do when you try to use someone else’s words instead of making a logical argument with your own thinking. I already told you sI don’t agree with Bolton.

R o b e r t, I was not using his words to make MY argument.  I was using HIS WORDS to show you what it looks like when somebody actually DOES BLAME AMERICA.  Also, to point out that the left isn’t the only one who does it.

You may not agree with Bolton, but you defended him, poorly I might add.  Why do you defend HIM and then get mad at others who say the same thing?  Could it be because you are intellectually dishonest?  Me thinks we have a winner.

You’re a high school kid, right?

If I was, then it would be a sad situation for you, since I just explained in great detail how your argument reveals you dont understand the words you use (or others for that matter).  I showed the difference between what a guy like Bolton said and what Ron Paul said.  And you’re still clueless.

What sort of derangement is that?

(non)Hannitized: I see you have degenerated into personal attack.  I’m not surprised, as you have no arguments of your own; instead, you try to use the words of others to demonstrate your own cleverness, like an adolescent attention-seeker.
If you ever get a real argument, supported by facts/logic, in your own words, get back to me.
You have become tiresome and boring.

"One must regard his leftist opponent as a parent regards his recalcitrant child. Don’t give an inch in a debate with a leftist, and you’ll soon frustrate him to the point that he falls back to his default position. He’ll gainsay your every point. He’ll even resort to calling you names and accusing you of having suspect parentage.”

I see you have degenerated into personal attack. 

In the last comment, where did I do anything you havent done to me?

I’m not surprised, as you have no arguments of your own;

You’re high!  I went into fantastic detail explaining how your misinterpretations of what Bolton said are wrong.  I went further to prove what true blaming America looks like.  You ignore reality, facts and definitions.

instead, you try to use the words of others to demonstrate your own cleverness, like an adolescent attention-seeker.

Now I am about to personally attack.  I have explained OVER and OVER to your subtle mind that I was not using HIS ARGUMENT to state ANYTHING.  I showed that Republicans BLAME AMERICA.  I showed that Bolton BLAMED AMERICA.  Thats it.  It is called an EXAMPLE.  It is called EVIDENCE and it stands in the face of this stupid BDS line you throw out. 

If you ever get a real argument, supported by facts/logic, in your own words, get back to me.

Scroll up R O B E R T.  Did you create the BDS argument?  Or are using someone elses argument there?  Genius.

You have become tiresome and boring.

You were never interesting!

This thread is starting to remind me of..

Handfire,

I seem to think I provided slightly bit more that than when I responded to you.  Did ya miss it?

Han,

I didn’t miss a beat, there just didn’t seem much to respond to, but hey ho, here you go.

There is a big difference between Iraq and Pakistan. Need I say more?

From Hannitized link to the Bolton interview

In part the United States is responsible for this by pushing (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharraf to try and cut a deal with Benazir Bhutto, by encouraging her to go back in the country, by trying to act like we could have a democratic election campaign in a situation with great instability,

As Bolton said, the US is partly responsible, because they encouraged the (re)democratisation of Pakistani politics, which led to Bhutto getting killed.
The design was not for Bhutto to be killed, but to help lead Pakistan into a new era of prosperity and freedom, but she died nonetheless and so, by default the US is responsible for not doing enough or for doing the wrong things.

These quotes highlight Bolton’s standpoint and illustrate why he thinks democratic reforms in Pakistan are bad right now. 

...let’s keep our eyes on the prize. For the United States, that’s the security of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons.”

Let’s not forget… (the) assassination attempt against Nawaz Sharif today...it’s obviously the intention of somebody...to throw things into greater instability.

… you could have a radical Islamicist regime come to power and get control of those nuclear weapons.

The issue is who can keep secure...the nuclear weapons. I don’t think any of the civilian leaders could have done that which is why I didn’t see facilitating their return to power was in U.S. interests

Note, Bolton’s concern is not that the US facilitation of democratic reforms has led to Bhutto’s death (although I’m sure he thinks it is a damnable shame), but that it has led to greater instability, which could lead to the nukes falling into the wrong hands.

Now, I haven’t said at any point whether I agree with Bolton or not, nor have a expressed an opinion on who is responsible (apart from the obvious terrorists), so please don’t start accusing me of being a “blame (the US of) America person”. I have just been commenting solely on his statement and my interpretation thereof.
I do not care for the rude and discourteous language you have used in this thread and don’t particularly wish to engage further, at this juncture.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

What is BDS?

Did you create the BDS argument?

What a lightweight neophyte! The term BDS has been in circulation a long time. Maybe this guy wouldn’t be so argumentative if he didn’t have to reinvent the wheel in every discussion he takes part in!
If this bozo would realize that Google is his friend, he wouldn’t sound like such an ignorant newbie dweeb all the time!

For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Note, Bolton’s concern is not that the US facilitation of democratic reforms has led to Bhutto’s death (although I’m sure he thinks it is a damnable shame), but that it has led to greater instability,

Mano,

ANY concern expressed in the fashion of blaming America is done with a larger interest in mind.  That isn’t even a point, its spin. 

What you seem to ignore is that when the Left blames America, with a larger interest in mind (NAMELY: Changing US foreign policy), its a BAD thing.  When a Republican blames America with a larger interest in mind, it’s understandable and all your abilities to evaluate nuance suddenly appear.

The point of posting Bolton’s comments is to show you that the “blame America first” meme, is just a bunch of hooey, except for a few far-left loons, NOT the NYT or Time.