Say Anything Blog

holding Sarah Palin to one standard with regard to her religion and holding Barack Obama to another is grossly unfair.

From a pure PR perspective (e.g., how it looks rather than what it really is) Obama managed to sweep his church issues under the rug so quickly precisely because he didn’t mention God in every other sentence. Possibly, voters percieved that to imply that his time spent at Wright’s wasn’t all that important to him.

On the other hand. Whether or not Palin really is a pious book banner, she certainly added to her image as one by sounding like she gave her speeches mid-rapture.

Again, this is a comment purely on image (which I think, for better or worse, is what ultimately decided this election).

http://www.filmeneutics.com

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

WF Buckley was the epitome of a “cocktail-party” Republican. However, he was first a Christian. So, no, the people who didn’t vote for M/P were not neccessarily thrown off Christianity. There is a movement afoot to change the party to that type, always has been, but, most true Conservatives are not scare off by Christians.

BTW, Rob, Oogedy Boogedy to you, too!

Bless her heart.....

Whether or not Palin really is a pious book banner, she certainly added to her image as one by sounding like she gave her speeches mid-rapture.

I guess I didn’t get that impression at all.  But, again, I’m from fly-over country and don’t really harbor any of the biases against oogedy-boogedy types that many in more urban areas do.

Knowing is understanding.

Again, this is a comment purely on image (which I think, for better or worse, is what ultimately decided this election).

Agreed.  In politics, perception is everything, and Palin was handled badly.

BTW, Rob, Oogedy Boogedy to you, too!

for the record, “oogedy boogedy” isn’t my term.  Kathleen Parker came up with it, and it offends me despite the fact that I’m not a christian.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

First, the term “Oogedy Boogedy” is deliberately offensive, it is to use a term about body shaking and repitition of a phrase as a derogatory, demeaning description of Christians. If it means to relate body shaking and repitition of the words “Ooogedy Bogedy” to Holy Spirit filled Christians it is blasphemous in the extreme and whoever originated it will not escape some consequences at the hand of the Lord for this mindless attack upon Christians and the Holy Spirit.

There is no objective proof that anyone resisted voting for McCain-Palin as an anti-Christian vote, that is a fantasy created by those hateful of Christ and the Church, but it is not supported by facts. If the GOP continues, even through blogs to attack Christains and demean them or suggest they give up their core values or key issues as a price to be part of the GOP, I suspect the GOP is already dead and we need to get on with the funeral, it is already beginning o stink of moral decay.  If there are no conservative Christians at the heart of the GOP, then I promise you they will never win another election, well except for a few pretend RINO types like Snow and Dukakis.

Without Christians the GOP and the nation are absent any moral or spiritual values, except those manufactured by man and they are ones that blow with the wind, having no substance. God has already withheld His Divine Hand in blessing this nation, look at the economic mess we are in, and as this Christian bashing continues, by our freewill choice America will have once again told God He is persona non grata in the affairs of our country; and this time, He will let us fall into the ashheap of history, as have so many great empires before us, as He will have no cause to ever bless us again.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I think if Christians want to be effective they need to develop their arguments a bit further than “if it’s in the bible it’s good enough for me.”

Rather than say God says abortion is bad, make an argument.  I hear you might even get a few atheists to buy into the idea that that is an human life. 

I disagree with Rob that gay marriage isn’t a winning issue.  It won in California even.

I’m not saying your (my) issues aren’t important, just that you have to frame them differently. 

Finally, I don’t see a lot of issues where the church is pushing their religious values on everyone. 

Abortion and gay marriage would be the two but I don’t see that they are only the province of the religious group.

For the record while I go to church Sunday I don’t really consider my voting positions to be coming from the church.  Of course my basic values come from what I learn so I would never say it has no effect on how I vote.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Without Christians the GOP and the nation are absent any moral or spiritual values

Bull pucky.

Excuse me, you were saying?

The swing voter responds to the perceived more popular candidate prior to election.  They want to be on the winning side.  It is not about ideals to them, otherwise they would have made their minds up earlier.  The Republicans lost because the conservative base partially stayed home.  The polls indicated McCain was behind, and the swing voter smelled victory for Obama and voted for Obama.  To attract the swing voter to the Republican side, they have to perceive Republican victory which requires the conservative base to be motivated by a conservative candidate.  You can’t win the Republican ticket with a moderate Republican.

Neiman, the christian lecturer and punisher has arrived for the evening.

Rob,
I know Parker wrote that worthless screed. I detest the woman. She is the classic example of those who say their are one thing, but if it benefits them financially then they say another. She is a popularity whore. As for me saying Oogedy Boogedy back to you, I was just teasing, because you say you are an atheist. I don’t practice that particular type of Christianity. I am Southern Baptist. We are pretty much like Methodists. We don’t have bands, no one says anything during services, except Amen after prayer. We don’t do the super-churches w/ the cameras and words projected on screens. The pastors are very low key. This is what I do, I don’t knock anyone their expression of faith. As far as abortion goes, I am not the person to give an articulate reason against it. I am very simple in that area. Abortion=Murder. A true social Conservative is a Christian.

I don’t think Christians are scaring people. Its the RINOs in the republican party trying to blame the conservatives for the losses of the GOP. The RINOs need to realize that they are the ones that are damaging this once great party. If you think I am wrong look at the miserable campaign that McCain ran. I think the RINO’s if they don’t want to act like democrats they should go caucus with the Dems.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

I think if Christians want to be effective they need to develop their arguments a bit further than “if it’s in the bible it’s good enough for me.”

You have, I think, deliberately, in ignorance, framed your argument on a very old phraseology, which is as grossly unfair as it is wrong. On the other hand, are you suggesting man needs to improve upon God’s Word, add to or delete from it to sell a product? Not only are the Bible and Christianity not products to be sold; Truth is Truth simply because it is, just as evil does exist - evil is; Truth is not affected by time, geography or social setting, it is the truth because it is the Truth. For instance, thou shalt not kill (do murder), is eternal Truth and can neither be addded to nor detracted from by anyone. It is up to man to either accept or reject the Truth on its own merits, it is not up to any Christian to convince anyone of the Truth.

Rather than say God says abortion is bad, make an argument.  I hear you might even get a few atheists to buy into the idea that that is an human life.

It is covered under “thou shalt not kill (do murder),” how can any puny man add to or detract from that simple truth. You do not murder anyone, especially in this case, wholly innocent human beings. You might suggest acientific arguments or those based on human philosophy or on some other basis, but shall we appeal to enemies of Christ and the Truth for the Truth?

Finally, I don’t see a lot of issues where the church is pushing their religious values on everyone. 

Abortion and gay marriage would be the two but I don’t see that they are only the province of the religious group.

You are in my opinion wrong, in that it is secular forces, liberals and homosexuals that are pushing their values on everyone else, contrary to the fact these moral-spiritual values are timeless, they have always been accepted by every society in human history as being evil and they were rejected, it is only the aforementioned activists that are forcing their non-values on everyone else.

Whistler, while Christians are to be sources of Spiritual Light and Salt in the world, contending for the Truth, to occupy this world until He Comes; God Whom is outside all space and time, has already seen all of human history from beginning to end; and He tells us that Truth, for a season will fail, that evil will abound a great deception will fall upon humanity. Abortion will continue and homosexual marriage will enjoy a short victory, until Jesus returns and then it will be too late for the children of darkness.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I will precursor this by saying I am indeed a Christian, and I am also one of the sought-after young voters. 

Catering to the Christian right may work for the next few elections, but with a significant amount of people my age it just doesn’t resonate.  Now, I don’t think they should be abandoned at all, rather they should be accepted. But, the major problem is the GOP needs to figure out how to put everyone under one “bucket” like the Democrats do.

The Democrats let everyone be one and the same unlike the Republicans.  They have cocktail party Democrats, those who want to legalize pot, those who vote only on gay marriage, etc. and they all work together.

The GOP needs to figure out how to put more people under one umbrella and accept people in the party, not try to abandon the Christian right and also not abandon those so-called “coctail party Republicans” and Moderate Republicans.

Those fiscal conservatives who don’t vote on social issues like abortion and gay marriage, like myself for example, feel alienated by the Christian right. I do personally, so I am one of those people who feel abandoned by the party. 

I completely agree we need to stick to our core fiscal conservative issues, and certainly for those who do vote socially conservative we should embrace them as well.  But we should be accepting of other moderates. I don’t care what anyone else says on this blog, without moderates means lost elections.

The polls indicated McCain was behind, and the swing voter smelled victory for Obama and voted for Obama.  To attract the swing voter to the Republican side, they have to perceive Republican victory which requires the conservative base to be motivated by a conservative candidate.

While I cannot completely dismiss your point of view, I said early on, in the early stages of the Democrat Primary season that Obama would win. Why? Looks: People today are driven by appearance over substance, and MCCain compared to Obama was a scar faced old man. Vision: Obama was able to manufacture a simple, albeit empty vision for America , “change,” that he could sell to a people that cannot read or comprehend things much beyond the 6th grade level. McCain wanted to show off his indepth knowledge of things and was never able to delivera a clear, simple vision for the future that average people could understand.

At least that was the basis for my prediction many, many months ago and I remain convinced these were the primary causes.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Rob,
As much as I like her, I thought Sarah was a net negative for the McCain ticket from day one...she was too much of a traget rich environment for Tina Fey [SNL]

The battle for freedom must be won over and over again.

AKAJOEL: Why don’t the polls show Palin was a negative? She seems to have solidified the base of the party and brought some excitement to the entire election.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman, I’m not saying that I disagree with you, however getting your message across to people hostile to (excuse me) “bible bangers” is a difficult thing

I think these people can be reached and hey they might even start coming back to the Church.  If they’re approached right.

Now with all that being said, I think the lefties are scaring the young voters with the religious folks.  So when you say that God says abortion is bad they’re thinking about their professor who told them the Moral Majority wants to set up a religious dictatorship.

We’re a religious country with a secular government.  Let’s work within that.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

pcND said: The GOP needs to figure out how to put more people under one umbrella and accept people in the party, not try to abandon the Christian right and also not abandon those so-called “cocktail party Republicans” and Moderate Republicans.

Those fiscal conservatives who don’t vote on social issues like abortion and gay marriage, like myself for example, feel alienated by the Christian right. I do personally, so I am one of those people who feel abandoned by the party

I as a conservative don’t want to cow tow to the Olypica Snowjobs, Critie Wittmans, Lincoln Chaffee, Chrisopher Shayes and the General Powells of the Republican party these people holding the Republican party back, they act like democrats and are part of the problem they should just go ahead and change their party afiliation to Democrat. The polled that the GOP lost because republican abandoned their core beliefs.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

Those who write off the 2008 election by saying that Republican candidates weren’t conservative enough are in denial. They are political ostriches, refusing to acknowledge that the country and the electorate are changing and that old recipes don’t work any more.

Learn or Languish

I think these people can be reached and hey they might even start coming back to the Church.  If they’re approached right.

It is an old debate and it has been used by several Christian denominations to build mega-churches, it is very tempting to just massage the message better and the update the atmosphere to make Christianity more attractive to more people. Willow Creek started its movement by asking people what they were looking for in a Church and making their ministry fit within that framework. Well, guess what, they have been very successful.

Now this is between you and me and not open for a long debate and especially vain disputations with some here; but here it is: If Jesus Christ alone, as presented in Holy Scriptures is not sufficient, then He is not God at all. If He needs anything of man to make Him more attractive, more modern, more relevant, then He cannot be God and Christianity is a lie. The Truth is that few will find the door and eternal life with Christ, a great many will even confess belief in Him, but be far from Him. The simple message of Jesus Christ delivered by Peter at Pentecost and the simple preaching of the Spirit of Christ through Paul in the Epistles, changed the world, even time itself is measured by the before Christ and after Christ. It is that simple message alone without programs, visual aids, dynamic preaching, colorful and charismatic personalities or great temples that alone can change a human being and give them eternal life. We are about being used of the Lord to change one soul at a time and if that were our single minded focus, if we had not modernized and compromised the Faith once delivered, America would not be in the mess it is today.

Compromise, massage the message, update the image? Hardly! I recall two young, spiritually ill equipped missionaries that went to the Congo many, many decades ago and one died and the other left defeated and broken. They only converted one small boy, with the Apsotolic Gospel Message, unfiltered, without compromise. It looked like a disaster, why didn’t they sell the message better? Well, the truth is that through that boy a mighty revival went throught the Congo and that part of African and hundreds of thousands os souls were saved. So, would I prefer the Gospel they taught that appeared so unyeilding, so unattractive or the watered down Gospel that built a a Willow Creek and that might build a succesful conservative political movement? Give me the straight, seemingly failed message every time, it never looks pretty but it changes the world.

Sorry Whistler, it is late and I went on too long. It wasn’t aimed at you, it is more my own personal musings about the subject.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

This is the political arena and not building a church Neiman.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

There was a day when social behavior could be called into question or corrected with a bible verse.  That day is far removed from our society.  The fact is while most accept the existence of God, far fewer accept the bible as an authority on American society.  I’ll admit that some of the Neo Evangelical crowd makes me uncomfortable with their warped kingdom theology and its influence on their politics, but their faith in God is welcome from a positive view of unalienable rights and American liberty.  What troubles me as much as their kingdom theology is this sort of modern secular exclusivity that cringes at the mention of a Creator when He is essential to traditional American liberty.  We have got to get our heads on straight.

Now with all that being said, I think the lefties are scaring the young voters with the religious folks.  So when you say that God says abortion is bad they’re thinking about their professor who told them the Moral Majority wants to set up a religious dictatorship.

We’re a religious country with a secular government.  Let’s work within that.

Whistler - right on with this. Some young folks really have been scared away, even if they don’t necessarily agree with the Lefties because they are much better at sending a message to young people as a whole. That is something that the GOP absolutely has to improve upon.

If we christians were beheading you and blowing up your buildings you would be singing a different tune. But then, we don’t use fear to control.

If we christians were beheading you and blowing up your buildings you would be singing a different tune. But then, we don’t use fear to control.

Not sure who that was directed at, but I am a Christian. And I’m not overly concerned about any Democrat beheading anyone or blowing up buildings either.

Conservatism won the election.  Obama sounded more like a Republican than McCain and that’s why he got elected. 

The stupid asses out there who are not smart enough to look beyond the drivel that he was spewing and the ‘Drive by Media’ let him spew to see what his record actually was, were the ones who pulled the lever for the lying puke.

They and the far lefty morons who are here on a regular basis.

His election was nearly a draw, not the landslide that they make it out to be, and if there wasn’t all the voter fraud, and illegal fund raising from over seas, he would have been in a dead heat with a guy that he should have beat by 20 percentage points.

The conservative hens need to gather the chicks, not look at the media and the squawking heads, and do what is right for the country.

They need to get some people who will unabashedly stand up for conservative principals, and have the ability to communicate them to the general public.

After the fiasco of the next 4 years, there should be a solid conservative base to the country for as far as the eye can see.  As long as we don’t lose our way again and become Democrat light, or heavy as it were.

Nuff said.

Gman ( o)==:::

No Shoulder Shrugs.  A lie left unchallenged soon becomes the truth.

Obama sounded more like a Republican than McCain and that’s why he got elected. 

That’s a good point.  Perception is more important than reality in politics, and Obama - ever the talented actor - was able to make the public perceive him as a tax cutter.

Even though he’s a big-government tax hiker.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

People want lower taxes regardless of who offers them.  And the 95% are not concerned about the 5%.

We had a good 8 year run with Bush, but the country was sick of his policies and McCain was fighting such an uphill battle against GWB that he really was lucky to stay within 5-6% of Obama just based on the generic congressional ballot and polling numbers about anger at Republicans.

Ebbs and Flow.  This election was not about ideals so much as about image.  Now it is a matter of delivering what the American people think that they were getting and if Obama doesn’t fix the economy, save your house, save your job, provide healthcare, etc., it is the Democrats’ fault because they run the whole damned enchilada and have a filibuster proof majority in the Senate as of the latest polls.

It is time to rebuild conservatism, not dissect the Republican Party.  Conservative values of lower taxes and even most social values on things like Gay Marriage resonate.  Liberal policies don’t resonate and that is why Obama tried so hard not to appear to be a Liberal.

This is the kind of crap that needs to be dealt with. The anti-intellectual crowd doesnt realize that this stuff makes people cringe and run the other direction as fast as they can. 

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Church_sign_Obama_election_is_sin_1117.html

http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/barack_obamas_a_whitey/#comments

This is no way to win friends and influence people.

Conservatism won the election.  Obama sounded more like a Republican than McCain and that’s why he got elected. 

I must have missed that part.

Was it in between when he was campaigning as a Socialist or when he was campaigning as a Black Liberationist.

Oh I remember it was right after he was the most liberal senator in the history of the world.

Maybe it was just before he promised to raise everyone’s taxes and give us socialized medicine.

OH YEAH, it’s when he was palling around with terrorist...yep, that’s it, he as a conservative republican when he was palling around with terrorist. Silly me, how could I forget something like that.

Nutters crack me up.

Excuse me, you were saying?

Obama was the one Americans trusted most to cut their taxes.  They trusted him on the economy.

Americans didn’t know who Bill Ayers was and that election was not about socialized medicine.  And Obama did very little talking about that.

The election was about the economy.  You cannot argue that.  And Obama’s answer on the economy was tax cuts for 95% of Americans.  What he does to the other 5% makes very little difference to the 95% that want tax cuts. 

I am not saying that substance of what Obama is won.  I am saying that towards the end, his message was much more conservative than his actual policies will be.  He stayed on message about the economy and tax cuts and it was a message that McCain could not use because he was tainted with being part of the problem.

Americans did not elect someone to raise taxes, they elected someone that campaigned on cutting taxes.  Raising taxes does not win elections.

The issue is that Republicans are no longer conservative and they are no longer trusted to cut the size of government and cut taxes.  It is a core problem in how they are viewed.  The point is that the Republicans have governed in such a way that they are no longer trusted to cut taxes and manage the economy.

"realitybased"bob - Maybe it was just before he promised to raise everyone’s taxes...

I thought it was “cut taxes for 95 percent of workers”.

Nutters crack me up.

You’re being stupid, bob. Obama ran on tax cuts. He ran to the middle in much of his rhetoric.

I have said on here before that the difference in the Democratic party vs. Republican is that they don’t have the core values, so they have no problem with who is in the party. They have the big tent policy. Everyone welcome. This election excepted, if you look at the vast majority of the makeup of the Dem party it is a very strange mix. You tend to have a very white upper class group, be they actors, professors, media types, etc. Then you have young people, and minorities that tend to be the lowest class. That doesn’t really jive does it? Well, because the party is not based on the same type of system that is the Repub party, they all join together, regardless of their very varying viewpoints on issues. There are many factors for why O won, no. 1 being that the pendulum always swings back and forth in politics. Something not working? Get the other party in. no. 2 is the fact he is black. A tremendous amount of people who wouldn’t vote for Kerry in 04 went gaga over O. no. 3 would be the failure of the republicans in washington now to govern according to conservative values. 4. They ran a near flawless campaign. They took Rove’s blueprint and put it on steroids. no. 5 They stayed on message. For the most part O ran as a Centrist. He did talk about universal health care, having a non-military army, etc., but due to the fact most of the media ignored it, he got a pass. Most people don’t bother to think on their own, they figure if it doesn’t freak out Diane, Katie or Matt, it’s cool. no. 6 the media was lax in their duties, and biased. no. 7 image. He didn’t seem like a guy who was “palling around with terrorists” he came across as smart and cool, and level-headed. no. 8 The economy. I don’t think M/P would have won, but they would have been much closer. no. 9 Because people who don’t want to be producers in this world like the idea of “free stuff,” especially when it comes to class-warfare. no. 10 George W. Bush. He angered the conservatives for not being fiscally responsible, and on immigration. The left tend to be pacifist, so the war and Gitmo were a reason to attack him at will. The libs also didn’t like he was a born again Christian, and they didn’t like the fact he had decided he preferred Texas to the elites.

Anyway, that’s the way I see it, what did I miss/add that I shouldn’t have??

Obama won for three reasons:

1. The media was utterly, and undeniably in the tank for him. The AP ran campaign claims as objective fact. In most post election polls, less than 15% of people knew about Professor Hairplugs plagerism, but more than 60% knew about Palin’s pregnant out of wedlock daughter. The media gave us more in depth coverage of Palin than it did the other three candidates combined. And it’s great that I now know that Sarah Palin has the world’s only time machine that she used to go back and personally kill Martin Luther King Jr...but a lil more coverage of the number ones would’ve been nice.

2. This was an election about George Bush. Right, wrong or indifferent, a lot of people saw it as an election about change vs same. Which leads to…

3. This was one of, if not THE most unthinking election ever. Voters had no clue who Obama was, and they didn’t care. He was exciting and fresh and new. Hope hope hope changidy hopidoodle changathingee. Emotion won the day over logical thought. The average voter has an attention span of 30 seconds, and Obama was more able to keep and hold their attention.

And as a subset:

4. It doesn’t help that even we didn’t like McCain. He really sucked. And in a lot of ways, Obama just let McCain hang himself. The bailout was horribly unpopular, and while fully supporting it, Obama just blamed it on Bush. During the debates he talked very little about the bailout, and let McCain ramble on at the mouth about how much we needed to do exactly what the voters opposed.

That’s the long and short of it.

For the first time in my adult life, I am ashamed of my country.

Kenny said:

2. This was an election about George Bush.

More than any other reason listed in Kenny’s post, this was the over-riding, compelling dynamic in the election of ‘08.

In my humble view, the election was lost 12 - 18 months ago and no matter who the GOP ran, we were not going to win. John McCain, like Bob Dole, was the sacrificial lamb in a lost cause.

Let’s not forget that we also lost many, many house, senate, state and local elections as well. Thus, the legacy of George Bush was a sundered party and a resentful electorate.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

You’re being stupid, bob. Obama ran on tax cuts. He ran to the middle in much of his rhetoric.

Oh, yeah...sorry lik, I was reading the gop talking points.

VIVA ARBUSTO!!!

Excuse me, you were saying?

It will be painful for many [no doubt], but I’m going to enjoy watching these marxist bastards implode.

The battle for freedom must be won over and over again.

they don’t have the core values, so they have no problem with who is in the party. They have the big tent policy. Everyone welcome.

Yeah, they are the party of the uninformed, the unintelligent, the under class, the illegal, the over educated, the pornographers, cheats, gays, abortionists, terrorists, the slovenly, welfare recipients, educators, ‘goonions’, criminals, and most lawyers so that they can defend all of the above.

Who are the republicans?

Most business owners and people who love this country because they are free to succeed, practice their religion of choice, and raise their families(So Far).  Also people who work willingly for their own success, and most of the ones who defend it with their lives.

HMMMMM Where would I rather hang my hat???

Gman ( o)==:::

No Shoulder Shrugs.  A lie left unchallenged soon becomes the truth.

I think if Christians want to be effective they need to develop their arguments a bit further than “if it’s in the bible it’s good enough for me.”

For what it’s worth, if you can visit the websites of CareNet, National Right to Life, and other pro-life advocates and come away with that impression, I’m afraid you’re not really taking in the evidence.  I would actually suggest that these days, too many social conservatives are pretty much afraid to use the Bible.  It is, after all, one of the bases of our common law--though too many today have forgotten that.

I’m serious here.  You look at a pro-life billboard, and it’s far more likely to note that the baby’s heart is beating 18 days from conception than to use Scripture.  I would suggest that both scientific fact and human tradition are legitimate sources of authority for making moral decisions--let’s never forget what happened to the respect for human life in a few societies in the past century that chose to forcibly evict the Church from the public square.

I don’t totally agree with her but I think there’s some truth to it.  Let’s face it… Evangelicals are not typically fiscal conservatives or for smaller government.  If they are, then it’s a second tier issue much further behind fiscal sanity. They want the law to force people to do things.

The evangelicals threw their support behind Huckabee.  He’s very very very very far from being a fiscal conservative or limited government guy. 

If Rob is right (and i tend to agree with his assertion) that the GOP lost because they’ve become another big-government party, then, yes, you have to lay some of the blame at the religious right.  Why?  Because when GOP candidates and congresspeople want to “run to the right” they “run to religion.” And then they have to advocate for bigger government.

Let’s face it… Evangelicals are not typically fiscal conservatives or for smaller government.

I am an evangelical, and want both of those.  I don’t know where you get off talking like that.  What we want is for the Government to get out of our business whether it is religious, or fiscal. I don’t want the Government mandating anything, I want a level playing field for Christianity to be able to ‘sell it’s product’ just like everyone else.

I looked seriously at Huckabee, but once I got to his policy, I looked more seriously at Mitt.  Then I saw his health care plan in Mass.

I didn’t really find any of the major picks for the Republicans to be my choice.  I think Palin lines up pretty close, but she did stick it to the Oil Co’s in Alaska and spread the wealth around up there.

Rick Santorum was my guy on immigration, but he never made it past first base.

Bobby Jindahl???

What I want is Ronald Regan to come back from the grave and possess someone who can move the masses and make conservatism applicable to today’s problems and connect with the general public.

Gman ( o)==:::

No Shoulder Shrugs.  A lie left unchallenged soon becomes the truth.

If Rob is right (and i tend to agree with his assertion) that the GOP lost because they’ve become another big-government party, then, yes, you have to lay some of the blame at the religious right.  Why?  Because when GOP candidates and congresspeople want to “run to the right” they “run to religion.” And then they have to advocate for bigger government.

Right on the money.  What I think is funny is that you can be very fiscally conservative, but not necessarily agree with social stances of the Religious right and that makes you a Moderate, because you aren’t “socially conservative.” But you are exactly right, they aren’t conservative, they aren’t even Moderate....they want to enforce laws and limit freedoms, at any cost. 

In that case, I would think many people are happy to be Moderate by that definition.

Like it or not the Republicans aren’t going to win without the fiscal conservatives and the religious values voters coming together.

Even at that they’re going to have to make their case a bit better.

To illustrate let’s take the fiscal conservative argument.  You can’t just say WHY you’re for smaller government.  You have to make the case that smaller government IS better for nearly all.

And you can’t let the opposition define you.

If you want to see where the election was lost it was in the first week after the Dems took over in Congress and the Republicans acted as if it were business as usual.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Let me get this straight; evangelicals mostly disliked McCain intensely, but they are to blame for the debacle that ensued when other parts of the party selected him as the candidate?  Say what?

Reality here is that too many supposed “fiscal conservatives” fell for a guy who is anything but.  Many “social conservatives” also fell for people who were anything but.  Now is the solution to attack your allies?  Maybe when things went bad between Washington and Lafayette, Washington should have attacked the French fleet at Yorktown?

Perhaps it would be better to start constructing links between fiscal and social conservatism.  I’ll start with something that libertarians have been pointing out for years; fiscal conservatism ought to start with Exodus 20:15 (thou shalt not steal) and Exodus 20:17 (thou shalt not covet).  Pretty much the entire Democratic platform is prohibited by those two verse.

It’s up to the candidate to make himself acceptable to enough people to become elected.

It’s not up to people to vote for a crappy candidate.

The person to blame for this is John McCain.  If there is anyone else that is to blame it’d be people that voted for McCain in the primary who thought that once he was nominated that everyone on the traditional right would hold their noses and vote for him.

I don’t blame anyone who thought he was the best candidate which probably accounts for most Republican primary voters (as opposed to crossovers.)

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

g-man said: I am an evangelical, and want both of those.  I don’t know where you get off talking like that.  What we want is for the Government to get out of our business whether it is religious, or fiscal. I don’t want the Government mandating anything, I want a level playing field for Christianity to be able to ‘sell it’s product’ just like everyone else.

I think I agree with that statement.

Bike Bubba said: Let me get this straight; evangelicals mostly disliked McCain intensely, but they are to blame for the debacle that ensued when other parts of the party selected him as the candidate?  Say what?

I think a lot of Evangelicals weren’t all that comfortable with McCain. A fair number of them stayed home and are a solid base for Conservatives. The GOP needs these people to win elections.

Check out:
Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck
Goon’s World

What I want is Ronald Regan to come back from the grave and possess someone who can move the masses and make conservatism applicable to today’s problems and connect with the general public.

Huh, I thought you wanted taxes to be lowered?

Excuse me, you were saying?

The anti-intellectual crowd doesnt realize that this stuff makes people cringe and run the other direction as fast as they can.

Dragon,

Does natural law theory, the foundation of our unalienable rights and our entire constitution, make you cringe just because a Creator is essential to that theory?

Those who think so are a much, much bigger problem than some of the ‘new evangelical’ crowd.

Conservatives have strayed way to far from intellectualism.  I would argue that’s the conservatives’ biggest problem moving forward.  Think about it.  “You’re a great American Sean.” “The terrorists hate our freedom.” “Drive by media.” “Waive the white flag in defeat.”

How many times have we heard these slogans in various forms over the past 8 years?  It’s sickening.

Conservatives need to get back to Russell Kirk and the bunch.

We’ve been all marketing and no substance for too long now.  It’s time to change that.

Does natural law theory, the foundation of our unalienable rights and our entire constitution, make you cringe just because a Creator is essential to that theory?

This question is hyperbole. I question your assertion that a “creator” is essential in the modern world. Even if you accept that your question is based on a reasonable premise, the numbers will not add up. Demographics are changing rapidly, and this is something that will overide all the jesus, creator, social issues voters. The numbers are no longer there for the evangelicals. The fact that a large percentage of the population is not interested in these bible based arguments makes winning elections based on those premises a risky at best, futile at worst scenario for the GOP.
Also, I have always considered the GOP to be the place that you go for realistic expectations and pragmatism. I have always considered the GOP to be the place where rational thought and good stewardship of our countries resourses and treasure could be counted upon. Since the evangelicals have come into power within the GOP, these quailties have pretty much dissapeared within the party. The evangelicals dont have the tools or the credibility to rehabilitate the reputation of the GOP,much less run the country in a competant manner, and they have driven many who do have the tools away with the pandering to the anti-intellectuals.
We are diametrically opposed on this concept HG.

Two words for you: compassionate conservative. 

The most damaging thing to the Republican Party in 100 years.

The experiments in government demonstrate the superiority of unalienable right endowed by our Creator as opposed to the rights of men which rest on inference alone.  The Creator as the sole source of unalienable rights is plainly declared in our DOI, while “The Declaration of the Rights of Man” attempts to establish the unalienable rights without naming the source of those rights.  The difference rests in the hearts and minds of the people and that difference is evident by the greatness and place of America in the world as compared to France.  These two experiments in government make clear the superiority and accuracy of natural law theory and specifically unalienable rights endowed by our Creator.

Dragon,

You again fail to discern between natural law theory and religion.  This is hindering any reasonable discussion on this issue. 

The argument I made was that natural law theory and the place of the Creator within it is, whether you or anyone else will admit it or like it, the basis of our constitution.  If you wish to change that then you will need a constitutional convention.  If you want to remove the Creator as the source of our rights and replace it with rights that come from government, then it is on you to argue and prove why.

I question your assertion that a “creator” is essential in the modern world.

Given the success of our experiment in government based on that very assertion, you’re either ignorant, or willfully so.

Two words for you: compassionate conservative.

The most damaging thing to the Republican Party in 100 years.

Indeed.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

It seems to me that an intellectual would do more than to lay claim to the constitution by making it fit a philosophical template the excludes a Creator.  If as you self proclaimed intellectuals say, there is no need of a Creator, that our rights are not sourced to a Creator, then you ought to have the intellectual integrity to advance your own treaties on government spelling out how we come by unalienable rights and the purpose and function of government in light of such.  Instead you simply want to throw out the Creator and lay claim to the liberty that natural law theory achieved.  Talk about lazy. Talk about anti-intellectual.  Talk about hypocrisy.

treaties treatise

I question your assertion that a “creator” is essential in the modern world.

What does “modern” have to do with anything? If He exists it doesn’t matter whether a society is modern or not!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I question your assertion that a “creator” is essential in the modern world.

I can’t help but notice that moral sense alone is sentiment enough for morality to exist, but when found to ally with an innate knowledge of a Creator, observation, and reason, the intellect should give way to the inability of science to prove a Creator exists.  And, to add insult to injury, not to do so is anti-intellectual.

Mr. Obama won an electoral landslide, not a popular one, yet Whistler says:

The person to blame for this is John McCain.  If there is anyone else that is to blame it’d be people that voted for McCain in the primary

... most of whom were republicans, along with the 57,000,000 Americans of all political persuasions who voted for him.

The 4.5% margin for President-elect Obama came - as predicted - from independent and undecided voters who tipped after the economy tanked. Simple as that.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

Way to take me out of context:

I said

If there is anyone else that is to blame it’d be people that voted for McCain in the primary who thought that once he was nominated that everyone on the traditional right would hold their noses and vote for him.

I did not blame someone for voting for him if they thought he was the best we had to offer.

What I said about those people:

I don’t blame anyone who thought he was the best candidate which probably accounts for most Republican primary voters (as opposed to crossovers.)

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

The person to blame for this is John McCain.

... neither taken out of context, nor inconsistent with your historic and on-going distaste for the Senator from Arizona.

You are not at your best when you try to be coy.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

OH, I stand by my belief that it is primarily John McCain’s fault.

I thought you were thinking I was blaming the Republicans who supported him in the primaries.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I thought you were thinking I was blaming the Republicans who supported him in the primaries.

I was thinking that, because you were.

If there is anyone else that is to blame it’d be people that voted for McCain in the primary who thought that once he was nominated that everyone on the traditional right would hold their noses and vote for him.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The times, they are a-changin’...
Bob Dylan

A very small subset of them actually.  People that knew he was not acceptable to much of the base but figured they’d hold their noses and vote for him anyway. 

If that was part of their thought process they are partially to be blamed.

[W]hat you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.