Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Monday, August 18, 2008

Did John McCain Steal A Scene From Alexander Solzhenitsyn?

There’s a rumor going around the internet that John McCain stole a story from an Alexander Solzhenistyn book and set it in the Vietnamese prison camp he was held in.

McCain’s been getting a lot of mileage out of his “Christianity-in-captivity” story. It’s been in ads, and speeches, and his talks from the pulpit. And for good reason: It’s extraordinarily affecting. In it, McCain is spending another Christmas Day locked in a Vietnamese prison. A guard walks up to him and, with his foot, etches a cross in the dirt. McCain and his captor stare at the symbol for a moment, before the guard scratches it away and leaves McCain to his thoughts. “To me, that was faith,” says McCain. “A faith that unites and never divides, a faith that bridges unbridgeable gaps in humanity.”

What’s peculiar about this story is that, as a DailyKos commentor noticed, it precisely echoes a tale from Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago:

Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work.

It’s quite a coincidence. A couple bloggers have started looking for some further evidence that this story actually happened to McCain.

This sounds like a bit of a stretch to me.  Solzhenistyn’s book was published in 1973.  McCain was released from the Hanoi Hilton in March of 1973.  Given that McCain was in pretty serious medical condition upon being released and required a good deal of time to recuperate it seems unlikely that he would have immediately dived into Solzhenitysn’s three-volume discourse on the horrors of Soviet gulags looking for details with which to embellish his own prison camp stories.

And such embellishments hardly seem necessary, no?  McCain’s experiences in those Vietnamese prison camps are sensational enough as they are, so why would McCain feel the need to embellish them?

Plus, as Megan McArdle points out:

Vietnam is a country with pretty rich Catholic tradition; tracing a cross in the dirt at Christmas is not something so unthinkably bizarre that it could only have happened in one communist dictatorship.

The only way this would actually hurt McCain is if you found a signed letter from him saying that this never happened.  Since it’s very unlikely that such a letter exists, the very best that this effort will achieve is sowing seeds of doubt in a few minds, making themselves look desperate to almost everyone else (and thereby making people wonder what’s wrong with Obama, that they’re this desperate), and outraging a number of people that you would call McCain’s honor into question with absolutely no evidence, or hope of obtaining same.

I think that last bit illustrates exactly how this will backfire for the Obama faithful.  Attacking McCain’s POW stories with little or no basis does almost nothing to discredit McCain himself, and a whole lot to make the would-be discreditors look foolish and petty and trite.  If anything, such attacks and smears serve more to endear McCain to those who feel sorry that his tortuous service to this country in Vietnam is twisted so blithely in the name of politics.

Comments

One of Mac’s fellow POWs tells of McCain relating the incident with the religiously sympathetic guard while they were all still being held. 1971.

Via Byron York:

... So I called Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who is campaigning for McCain, to ask him about it.

“I recall John telling that story when we first got together in 1971, when were talking about every conceivable thing that had ever happened to us when we were in prison” Swindle told me a few minutes ago. “Most of us had been kept apart or in small groups. Then, in 1970, they moved us into the big cell. And when we all got to see each other and talk to each other directly, instead of tapping through walls, we had 24 hours a day, seven days a week to talk to each other, and we shared stories. I vaguely recall that story being told, among other stories.”

“I remember it from prison,” Swindle continued. “There were several stories similar to that in which guards — a very few, I might add — showed compassion to the prisoners. It was rare, and I never met one, but some of the guys did.”

Pal2Pal on August 18, 2008 at 10:19 pm

The same thing would have happened to Kerry’s detractors by the way, had his stories been true.

The problem was there were several stories that were clearly open-faced lies, such as his Christmas in Cambodia.

The trouble as I see it is most liberals really don’t or can’t distinguish between objective truth and “true to the narrative”.

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 01:51 am

Part of it is they just can’t imagine any of their communist heros making a cross, say nothing of honoring Christmas!

golfmann on August 19, 2008 at 04:30 am
Avatar for Jay

There are two possibilities:

Either he’s losing it and he’s inadvertantly confusing things that happened to someone else, with things that happened to him; OR he deliberately plagiarised someone else’s story in an attempt to exploit his POW status as a way to endeer himself to conservative christians.  You choose.

Andrew Sullivan writes:

And it would not be salient if McCain hadn’t deployed the anecdote in his own words - with a misleading image - in a campaign ad, and used it again in front of an evangelical audience Saturday night. And it would not be salient if religious fanatics had not a strangle-hold on the Republican party, seeking doctrinal assurances and echoes of their own type of faith in political candidates.

Here are the perfectly legitimate questions reporters should now, in my opinion, ask McCain:

why did you not mention this transcendent story in 1973? Why, in discussing three Christmases in captivity in Vietnam, was this story - far more powerful than any of the other anecdotes - omitted? How was it possible for the gun guard of May 1969 to be present at Christmas that year when McCain had been transferred to another camp? Is it possible that McCain’s memory has faded with time and that he has simply fused his own memories with other stories - as Clinton did with Bosnia sniper fire and as Kerry did in remembering another Christmas he could not have actually witnessed where he said he did?

This is either dispicable or dangerous and you don’t care either way, because it doesn’t help you.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 07:27 am
Rob
Rob
19961 comments
Send a private message

Either he’s losing it and he’s inadvertantly confusing things that happened to someone else, with things that happened to him; OR he deliberately plagiarised someone else’s story in an attempt to exploit his POW status as a way to endeer himself to conservative christians.  You choose.

Because it is completely outside the realm of possibility that McCain might have had an experience in a POW camp similar to one described in a book.

But keep making those accusations.  We all know how desperate you Obamamaniacs are these days.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on August 19, 2008 at 07:37 am
Avatar for Jay

Orson Swindle isn’t just a former POW.  He’s funneled tons of money toward John McCain’s campaign and is one of his most ardent supporters.  He’s also known for his sham “grassroots” and lobbying shenanigans.  I you expect me to swallow his account of the story, I’m going to need a chaser.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 07:37 am
Avatar for Jay

Because it is completely outside the realm of possibility that McCain might have had an experience in a POW camp similar to one described in a book.

This is hardly just “similar experience in a POW camp”.  This is an identical account of a rather anecdotal story.  Sure it’s possible.  But it’s also possible that McCain once wrangled a Unicorn...but not bloody likely.  If this is the tract you’re going to take, then there’s no hope for you.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 07:40 am
Rob
Rob
19961 comments
Send a private message

This is hardly just “similar experience in a POW camp”.  This is an identical account of a rather anecdotal story.  Sure it’s possible.  But it’s also possible that McCain once wrangled a Unicorn...but not bloody likely.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that McCain’s lying here.  If you can I’ll join you in heaping scorn on the guy for lying.  But what you’re workign with here is nothing but innuendo, and all it’s really telling me is that you guys are desperate because your messiah is faltering.

Honestly, if this is the best you can come up with on McCain you guys are in deep trouble.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on August 19, 2008 at 07:53 am
Proof
Proof
13502 comments
Send a private message

Unbelievable! What are the odds that there would be dirt to make crosses in in both places?

Clinton made a cross of stones on the beach at Normandy. Maybe he was plagiarizing Solzhenitsyn, too? /sarcasm


Excuse me, you were saying?

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Proof on August 19, 2008 at 08:05 am
Avatar for Jay

I worked for a District Judge that complained that instead of doing any work, lazy appellate judges would hide behind the burden of proof.  After all, there are certain things that cannot be proven and it’s much easier to use that as an excuse.  That’s what you’re doing here.  Instead of looking at the evidence and examining it with any modicum of common sense, you hide behind an impossible burden of proof. 

You’re so transparent Rob.  You analyze Obama’s answer to a question with a comb of the finest tooth, but you let this slide?  At least I admit that I’m biased. 

Honestly, if this is the best you can come up with on McCain you guys are in deep trouble.

Who said it was the best?  It’s just one more in a long line.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 08:58 am

Who said it was the best?  It’s just one more in a long line.

Insight from mathematics:

0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0=0

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 09:01 am
Rob
Rob
19961 comments
Send a private message

I worked for a District Judge that complained that instead of doing any work, lazy appellate judges would hide behind the burden of proof.  After all, there are certain things that cannot be proven and it’s much easier to use that as an excuse.  That’s what you’re doing here.  Instead of looking at the evidence and examining it with any modicum of common sense, you hide behind an impossible burden of proof.

I think it’s pretty disturbing that there are judges out there who are willing to accept certain things in their courts without evidence.

But really, what you’re telling me is that you can’t prove anything here but you’re going to make the accusation anyway.  Because you hate McCain and worship Obama.

Far from making McCain look bad, you’re making yourself look clownish.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on August 19, 2008 at 09:18 am

Too coincidental. It’s legitimate to question it....

McCain’s a big Solzhenitsyn fan...read “Solzhenitsyn at Work” by John McCain from an excerpt drawn from “Hard Call: The Art of Great Decisions,” which Senator McCain coauthored with Mark Salter. It’s reprinted in the New York Sun here

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 09:22 am

you hide behind an impossible burden of proof.

Actually you are hiding behind innuendo, and there is nothing remotely “common sense” in your argument.  Here we have a story told by McCain to one of his fellow prisoners in 1971, two years before the publication of the Gulag Archipelago.

To counter that, you just have a vague similarity in the two stories (the only common element is the cross in the dirt).  Like nobody has ever thought to etch a cross in the dirt, especially in a place where drawing a cross could get you imprisoned.

Don’t make accusations that you can’t prove, or if you do make unprovable accusations, don’t get surprised when you get scorn heaped upon you for doing so… since that itself is an ultimate act of cowardice.

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 09:22 am

Vietnam is a country with pretty rich Catholic tradition

!
Oh. It is?

Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on August 19, 2008 at 09:25 am

Joel:

Too coincidental. It’s legitimate to question it....

Drawing crosses in the dirt in a totalitarian regime just never happens?

You need a bit more food that this for any “legitimate” questioning to occur.

Why did one of McCain’s fellow prisoners collaborate that he heard the story from McCain in1971:

You’ve probably seen that there are some out there in the blogosphere questioning the authenticity of John McCain’s “cross in the dirt” story, which McCain told Saturday night at the Saddleback Summit.  But there doesn’t seem much mention of the fact that McCain had a lot of fellow POWs in Vietnam, and they can be asked for their recollections.  So I called Orson Swindle, a fellow POW who is campaigning for McCain, to ask him about it.

“I recall John telling that story when we first got together in 1971, when were talking about every conceivable thing that had ever happened to us when we were in prison” Swindle told me a few minutes ago.  “Most of us had been kept apart or in small groups.  Then, in 1970, they moved us into the big cell.  And when we all got to see each other and talk to each other directly, instead of tapping through walls, we had 24 hours a day, seven days a week to talk to each other, and we shared stories.  I vaguely recall that story being told, among other stories.”

“I remember it from prison,” Swindle continued.  “There were several stories similar to that in which guards — a very few, I might add — showed compassion to the prisoners.  It was rare, and I never met one, but some of the guys did.”

Absent any other “proof”, I think we need to move onto something with more substance.

Which as far as I can tell that alone excludes us from discussing anything Obama.

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 09:28 am

Sparkie:

Oh. It is?

French colonization....

Any questions?

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 09:29 am

Have any of you idiots who question McCain’s account read any of the many accounts of the POWs? Do any of you understand the words honor and integrity? You all make me sick with your accusations and implications of lying. Read Bud Day, read Jeremiah Denton, read the accounts, the citations, etc. You sit in your basements without a responsibility in the world, you have never been tortured (and no getting grounded on Friday night does not count), you’ve never lived in a filthy cell for years, been starved, been denied medical treatment, had multiple broken bones, massive infections, and suffered beating after beating.

Is Denton lying too:

“I experienced what I couldn’t imagine human nature was capable of,” Denton said. “I witnessed what my comrades could rise to. Self-discipline, compassion, a realization there is a God.”

He also experienced periodic compassion from the North Vietnamese. Sometimes the guards would weep as they tortured him.

One experience, he will never forget. Denton kept a cross, fashioned out of broom straws, hidden in a propaganda booklet in his cell. The cross was a gift from another prisoner. When a guard found the cross, he shredded it. Spat on it. Struck Denton in the face. Threw what was left of the cross on the floor and ground his heel into it.

“It was the only thing I owned,” Denton said.

Later, when Denton returned to his cell, he began to tear up the propaganda booklet. He felt a lump in the book. He opened it. “Inside there was another cross, made infinitely better than the other one my buddy had made,” Denton said.

When the guard tore up the cross, two Vietnamese workers saw what happened and fashioned him a new cross. “They could have been tortured for what they did,” Denton said.

Pal2Pal on August 19, 2008 at 09:31 am

Carrick...I’m voting for the guy but, honestly, this is pegging the meter on the bullshit detector…

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 09:34 am
Avatar for Jack

The burden of proof is on you to prove that McCain’s lying here.

NO!!!!

The burden of proof is on McCain to prove that he’s telling the truth. That’s how it works in the real world.

Jack on August 19, 2008 at 09:41 am

Pal2Pal. What you quote is evidence of humanity and compasion, which exists alongside with inhumanity and brutality. No surprise here.

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 09:48 am

Joel, I very likely will not be voting for the guy, and my own bullshit meter is being pegged the other direction.  Mostly because all there is to the accusations are unprovable innuendo.

This doesn’t come anywhere close to Kerry’s Christmas in Cambodia or his “boat was hit by a mine” stories in terms of being falsifiable.

The bottom line is the left is all pissed off because the Obamanator did such a lousy job at Saddleback,and they are just trying to distract attention from the fact that all they have is an empty suit.

(I think this was roughly the period where in 2004 it started becoming clear to Democrats that there was an electability problem with their nominee.)

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 09:49 am

Nobody outside the lefty blogs and those righty blogs that feel compelled to quote him and foist him on the rest of us has ever even heard of Andrew Sullivan. He is a nobody. A nothing. Not fit to wipe the shoes of any one of the POWs or any military man or woman for that matter.

There were two men known as “hard resistors.” One was Bud Day, the other John McCain.

Read the full account HERE.

Colonel George E. “Bud” Day is the most decorated service man since General Douglas MacArthur.
Day has been awarded the Medal of Honor, Air Force Cross, Distinguished Service Medal, Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Hearts, in fact, more than 70 medals and awards. He calls John McCain a hero, and thinks voters deserve to know more about his Hanoi Hilton cell mate.

...

“I don’t know how many American prisoners of war were heroes,” said Day’s friend and fellow POW John McCain, now a US Senator, “but I know that Bud Day was one. In my life, I have never known anyone who better exemplifies the cardinal American virtues: compassion, guts, determination, resourcefulness, and intelligence. Bud Day is one of the greatest men I have ever had the honor to know.”

Pal2Pal on August 19, 2008 at 09:55 am

NO!!!!

The burden of proof is on McCain to prove that he’s telling the truth. That’s how it works in the real world.

Jack,

The real truth in the “real world” is that McCain probably wasn’t counting on your vote anyway.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 19, 2008 at 10:02 am

Perspective....Obama’s not exactly’s:

1.) Selma March Got Me Born - NOT EXACTLY, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google’Obama Selma ‘ for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)

3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - NOT EXACTLY, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - NOT EXACTLY, your cousin Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate election in 2007, in Kenya .

It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Oba ma, is Odinga’s follower.

Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian church where they took shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - NOT EXACTLY, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - NOT EXACTLY, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’ (from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - NOT EXACTLY, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years, until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.

4-3-08 Article ‘Obama was ‘quite religious in islam’’ http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60559

February 28, 2008. Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago: Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as ‘one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.’ This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says ‘Obama’s narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.’

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - NOT EXACTLY, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.

13.)An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - NOT EXACTLY, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ‘08 - NOT EXACTLY, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - NOT EXACTLY, you didn’t write it, introduce it, change it, or create it.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - NOT EXACTLY, as of March, 2008, state bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - NOT EXACTLY, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - NOT EXACTLY, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction off Israel .

31.) I Want Americans To Decide - NOT EXACTLY, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

32.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - NOT EXACTLY, you passed 26, most of which you didn’t write yourself.

33.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - NOT EXACTLY, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

34.) I Don’t Take PAC Money - NOT EXACTLY, you take loads of it.

35.) I don’t Have Lobbysists - NOT EXACTLY, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.

37.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - NOT EXACTLY, you weren’t in office to vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time.

39.) My uncle liberated Auschwitz concentration camp - NOT EXACTLY, your mother had no brothers and the Russan army did the liberating.

from Tennessee Conservative Watch

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 10:05 am

For you pampered babies who are too lazy to read the first hand accounts, here is just a snippet from Bud Day:

When the cast was cut off Day’s right arm, his hand flopped around uselessly. He could not help himself with his left hand, either. His weight had fallen to about 100 pounds. Another prisoner, Air Force Maj. Norris M. Overly, was assigned to take care of him.

Day and Overly were moved to another POW camp, the “Plantation,” a few miles away. The reason, apparently, was so Overly could also care for another incapacitated POW: Navy Lt. Cmdr. John S. McCain III, shot down and captured on Oct. 26, 1967. (McCain’s father, Adm. John S. McCain Jr., became the head of US Pacific Command nine months later.)

The V hoped to cultivate or exploit McCain. As POW camps went, the Plantation was a showplace, the residence of a former French mayor of Hanoi. Conditions were better and treatment was not as harsh. High-ranking Vietnamese came to see McCain and talk to him, but he wasn’t cutting any deals.

Nearly all of the POWs tried to hold to the Code of Conduct for US armed forces, which said they should give their name, rank, service number, and date of birth, and nothing else. Some POWs—Bud Day and John McCain among them—were known as “hard resisters,” who took severe torture before telling the V anything. A few of the POWs made no effort to resist and thus obtained special privileges.

In February 1968, Overly was released to go home early, and Day and McCain looked after each other. Day’s arm had come out of the cast misshapen and ulcerated. His hand was out of alignment with his arm. The bones were not joined. The V were not interested.

McCain wrapped Day’s arm in bamboo and rags and squeezed the bones together. About a month later, the bones joined. Years afterward, doctors in the United States expressed the opinion that McCain ought to get a degree in practical orthopedic surgery.

At the Plantation, Day and McCain learned the tap code the POWs used for communicating with each other. Tapping was an offense punishable by torture if a POW was caught at it.

Pal2Pal on August 19, 2008 at 10:06 am

The bottom line is the left is all pissed off because the Obamanator did such a lousy job at Saddleback,and they are just trying to distract attention from the fact that all they have is an empty suit.
Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 10:49 am

Agreed ! ! !

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 10:08 am

Joel-sixpack tries to change the subject.  Bat’s kids stopped doing that at the age of 5.  Did you know that?

This McCain guy will say anything to get elected.  Pathetic.


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 19, 2008 at 11:05 am

The New York Sun is reporting Obamasiah “appeared to misstate” his position about abortion and his campaign has “acknowledged” that the state and federal provisions were identical.

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 11:11 am

The real truth in the “real world” is that McCain probably wasn’t counting on your vote anyway.


Bat One on August 19, 2008 at 10:02 am

I wonder why this sounds like something I said about you and Barak Husein Obama?

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 01:53 pm

The New York Sun is reporting Obamasiah “appeared to misstate” his position about abortion and his campaign has “acknowledged” that the state and federal provisions were identical.

Is that some more of that dreaded thread jacking you pretended to be so angry about the other day Joel-sixpack?


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 19, 2008 at 01:56 pm

ellinas,

The verity of both statements, yours and mine, is why I later disparaged the intellectual level of your more recent commentary, comparing it, unfavorably, to that of H.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 19, 2008 at 01:59 pm

My.

Excitable Andy is of the opinion that McCain made the story up with an eye towards assuaging the Religious Right.

Sadly for sully Tom Maguire is able to document similar expressions of faith dating back to 1973 and 1974, before the term “Religious Right” had been coined in the current political sense, well before the emergence of what would become known as the “Religious Right” as an electoral force, and before McCain entered politics as well.

Tom continues to savage sully in a follow on piece:

Andrew Sullivan is shocked (shocked!) that anyone could think that his questioning of McCain’s cross in the dirt story could be characterized as “Swiftboating”:

Swift-boat? Moi?

It’s worth noting that pursuing the cross-in-the-dirt evangelical parable as it might have happened to McCain is in no way impugning anyone’s war record. No one is disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam, his heroism, his sacrifice or any jot and tittle of his combat in arms and time in captivity.

Uh huh.  McCain tells a story of his war time experience meant to illuminate his character.  Sully questions that story but he is not “disputing in any way what McCain did in Vietnam”.  Hmm, I guess he is merely disputing what a Vietnamese guard did, and what McCain remembers.  Quel difference!  Or as Sister Toldjah rejoins “Yeah.  And my writing this post? It’s not part of my blog.”

But wait, it gets even better!

Solzhenitsyn Biographer: Cross-In-Dirt Gulag Story Never Happened
By Greg Sargent - August 19, 2008, 2:05PM

There’s been a ton of buzz on the web for the last day or so—beginning with this Daily Kos diary—suggesting that John McCain patterned his story about a Vietamese captor drawing a cross in the dirt before him on a similar episode from Russian novelist Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s time in the Soviet gulags.

But it turns out that this episode probably never happened to Solzhenitsyn at all, and according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer it appears nowhere in his published writing. Columbia University professor Michael Scammell, the author of Solzhenitsyn: A Biography, says the episode “never happened,” and didn’t appear in Solzhenitsyn’s book, Gulag Archipelago, either.

Sadly, I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for sully, or “jack” or “jay” or “overcompensating elinas” to correct their misstatements and apologize.  The leftards never do…

Which raises a question: Does one have to be unable to admit error to become a leftard, or does becoming a leftard remove the ability to acknowledge error?  The world wonders.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 02:34 pm

ellinas,

They don’t seem to understand that their intellectual arguments require little more than what they receive.

It must be more of that personal responsibility stuff we keep hearing about, but rarely see!


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 19, 2008 at 02:45 pm
Avatar for Jay

Sadly, I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for sully, or “jack” or “jay” or “overcompensating elinas” to correct their misstatements and apologize.  The leftards never do…

You still lost Rodney? 

But it turns out that this episode probably never happened to Solzhenitsyn at all, and according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer it appears nowhere in his published writing.

And where, prey tell, is this account in all of John McCain’s former writings?  Why does it not come to light until 2000?  Why is the ONLY account of John telling this story BEFORE 2000 from a good buddy/supporter/lobbyist dirtbag, Swindle? 

You guys are just pissed off that anyone would dare question the mired recollection of a former POW.  And it’s so foreign to you that the fact that he was a POW should not excuse him from having to answer for a dispicable act like this. 

Did you hear about when John McCain was police chief at a small harbor town?  When the town was terrorized by random water deaths, he, a scientist and a grizzly fisherman headed out in the fisherman’s boat..."The Orca”...to seek out and destroy an otherworldy Great White shark?  That was sweet.  Prove to me it didn’t happen.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 02:54 pm
Avatar for HG

It must be more of that personal responsibility stuff we keep hearing about, but rarely see!

Moonbats are blind in the light.  Don’t blame others for your intellectual shortcomings.

HG on August 19, 2008 at 03:01 pm

Bat one. Gee thanks.
I personaly never underestimate the mental prowess of the retarded.

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 03:11 pm
Avatar for HG

This is either dispicable or dangerous and you don’t care either way, because it doesn’t help you.

So are you saying you only care because politically it does help you?

HG on August 19, 2008 at 03:14 pm

But it turns out that this episode probably never happened to Solzhenitsyn at all, and according to a Solzhenitsyn biographer it appears nowhere in his published writing.
Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 03:34 pm

Rodney

I followed some lib links [DailyKos] etc. that ended up at the Huffington Post. I guy by the name of Mark Nickolas posted a side by side comparison between the Saddleback version and [the referenced] Solzenitzen version.

Nicklaus writes:

Now check out how what Solzhenitsyn wrote in The Gulag Archipelago:

He then links back to Kos which cites Fr. Luke Veronis The Sign of the Cross as the source of the Solzenitzen Cross in the dirt story.

Here’s the link to the Veronis sermon.....that is the Kos/Huffington source of the controversy.

Fr. Luke Veronis is an American priest serving in Albania. His sermon was preached on the Sunday of the Cross, March 30, 1997, at St. George Church in Durres, Albania. For more information on the ministry of the Orthodox Church in Albania.

There are no “quotes” from Solzhenitsyn or The Gulag Arcipelago in the the good Father’s sermon....after he tells the “cross in the dirt” part of the story in the sermon, he says:

Years later, Solzhenitsyn’s writings enlightened the entire world, telling us not only about the horrors of the Soviet prisons, but also witnessing to the power of God and the hope of the Cross.

I wonder what “source” Veronis used.

Joel on August 19, 2008 at 03:25 pm
Avatar for Jay

So are you saying you only care because politically it does help you?

Wow, how Zen of you.  Unfortunately, it doesn’t even make sense.

I’m making the point because it’s dispicable or dangerous.  Are you confused by this?  Because it’s actually very simple.

Jay on August 19, 2008 at 03:26 pm
Avatar for HG

I’m making the point because it’s dispicable or dangerous.

You left out a third possibility.. it’s true. Your false dilemma is not point at all.  It is you who is confused.

HG on August 19, 2008 at 03:32 pm

Has anyone read “The Gulag Archipelago”?
Going back and forth like children is stupid. Someone please read the book, and tell us the truth.
He said this, the other one said that unending bullshit.
Read the fucking book for Christ’s sake. Idiots.

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 03:42 pm

Let me see if I’ve got this correct. A man, John McCain, who received the Legion of Merit for his role as acting Chaplain and spiritual adviser to the POWs and who regularly conducted prayer and religious services and religious holiday celebrations, is somehow lying. A guard, who witnessed for days, months, years, the strong leadership of John McCain, witnessed his faith and the faith he generated in others, somehow could not have been moved to reveal his own religious sympathies?

We know that Denton had a similar experience with a guard replacing a woven cross that one of the more vicious guards had destroyed.

He has told the story on many occasions starting with his own POW-mate in 1971, again in ‘73, it is in his book, Character is Destiny, and those who know him or served with him know him to be a man of immense integrity and they know what is true and what isn’t. They may not all agree with him politically, but I’ll bet you won’t find one who denigrates McCain’s leadership and integrity.

Pal2Pal on August 19, 2008 at 03:43 pm

the anonymous leftard posting as “jay” proves me right when I wrote:

Sadly, I don’t recommend anyone hold their breath waiting for sully, or “jack” or “jay” or “overcompensating elinas” to correct their misstatements and apologize.  The leftards never do…

(and they never click through, either.) I must say that I find this amusing!

And where, prey tell, is this account in all of John McCain’s former writings?  Why does it not come to light until 2000?  Why is the ONLY account of John telling this story BEFORE 2000 from a good buddy/supporter/lobbyist dirtbag, Swindle?

I haven’t read all of John McCain’s published pieces.  Truth be told, I have read none of them (which has a lot to do with why I find this amusing!).  Most (but certainly not all)of John McCain’s fellow PoW are his friends.  The fact that you dismiss Swindel’s corroboration on that basis alone says a lot about you.

You guys are just pissed off that anyone would dare question the mired recollection of a former POW.  And it’s so foreign to you that the fact that he was a POW should not excuse him from having to answer for a dispicable act like this.

Heh!  You are obviously new around here!  If you’re looking for McCain fans, you need to look elsewhere, as they are relatively few and far between here.  There’s only one subject in re McCain that will get you shouted down summarily, and this ain’t it.

Your following fiction, like the basis of your accusation here, isn’t really worthy of being repeated.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 03:44 pm

Imagine my suprise.

The leftards have all run away.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 09:14 pm

Has anyone read “The Gulag Archipelago”?
Going back and forth like children is stupid. Someone please read the book, and tell us the truth.
He said this, the other one said that unending bullshit.
Read the fucking book for Christ’s sake. Idiots.

ellinas on August 19, 2008 at 09:33 pm

Leftards, moonbats.....just more of those intellectual debate tactics that the right keeps telling me makes them better than the left.

Are you mad because your candidate will say anything to get elected?


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 19, 2008 at 09:40 pm

overcompensating elinas,

Yes, back in the early 80’s.

Here’s a clip of John Ringo’s The Last Centurion just for you!

There was one Greek government. Not four. One. All the surviving ambassadors agreed and there was even a U.S. Embassy still open. They’d had some major issues, still did. But they were, well, the Greeks. Sure, they hadn’t won a war since Palatia. But they’d been fought for and over and through for centuries and they just kept being Hellenes. As long as there was enough mutton, retzina and ouzo they were good. A company of infantry replicating the Ten Thousand’s march. Oh, hell, yeah! Come on over! We’ll bring the ouzo! You’re cute, you know that? How’s your butt look?


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 09:49 pm

eunichized the beardless boy catamite toddles through as well…

Quit straining and just give us a surf report…


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 19, 2008 at 09:51 pm

the anonymous leftard posting as “jay” proves me right when I wrote:

That was very bright of you to call the gentlemen who provided his name “anonymous”.  Did you hurt your head when you tried to use that big word properly?

Anonymous:

1.  without any name acknowledged, as that of author, contributor, or the like: an anonymous letter to the editor; an anonymous donation.

Doh!  Dictionary.com said “any” name.  Imagine that?

If you’re looking for McCain fans, you need to look elsewhere, as they are relatively few and far between here.  There’s only one subject in re McCain that will get you shouted down summarily, and this ain’t it.

Oh king beardsley, are you voting for McCain yes or no?


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 19, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Key the ringing of the bell: First to follow the latest talking point order that went out today:

… your candidate will say anything to get elected?

Pal2Pal on August 19, 2008 at 10:34 pm

Has anyone read “The Gulag Archipelago”?

There are a few.

I’m pretty sure that Jay, who is little more than a blithering sychophant, is not one of them.  The two stories have little in common, and of course Jay has to assassinate any service person who comes to McCain’s defense… How classy.

Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 11:45 pm

And of course none of you have been assassinating Jay’s character, right Carrick?

And this isn’t anything you guys haven’t done to Obama a 100 times. 

The rank hypocrisy on this site is so thick, you could cut it and serve it for dinner.  I am sure you all find it quite delicious.


Combating Republican dirty tricks since 2002!

Example: Republican Dirty Trick

Hannitized on August 20, 2008 at 12:01 am

Joel, I very likely will not be voting for the guy, and my own bullshit meter is being pegged the other direction.  Mostly because all there is to the accusations are unprovable innuendo.
..........
The bottom line is the left is all pissed off because the Obamanator did such a lousy job at Saddleback,and they are just trying to distract attention from the fact that all they have is an empty suit.
Carrick on August 19, 2008 at 10:49 am

Looks like Carrick & Rodney are correct.....I can’t find the cross in the dirt story anywhere in the book.

We all should have known this was leftie bullshit from the get go; when, instead of referencing the “ The Gulag Archipelego” with a page number as the source, KOS instead referenced a sermon [based on one of his essays] given by a Catholic priest in Albania in 1997.

Imagine that....

Joel on August 20, 2008 at 03:27 am
Proof
Proof
13502 comments
Send a private message

The rank hypocrisy on this site is so thick, you could cut it and serve it for dinner.  I am sure you all find it quite delicious.

Only when you show up, H. It seems to follow you!

Excuse me, you were saying?

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Proof on August 20, 2008 at 04:44 am

Proof,

Indeed, eunichized has a choking little cloud of hypocrisy which follows him around like a tail.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 20, 2008 at 06:11 am

H:

The rank hypocrisy on this site is so thick, you could cut it and serve it for dinner.  I am sure you all find it quite delicious.

When I attack yours, Jay’s or Barry’s services records, let me know.

Somethings we don’t do, without considerably more ammunition that Jay is bringing to the table.  I have no problems calling you or Jay on your shit, because slinging shit is how both of you start any dialogue on this blog.

Personally I love the irony in this:  Kerry self-impeached with the stories he gave, and his fellow servicemen not only refused to back up his lies, they pointed out the problems with the stories (problems that any reasonable, non-biased person could confirm for themselves).  One of the biggest of course was the role that the not-yet-elected Richard Nixon had to do with Kerry’s Christmas in Cambodia.

Of course that episode has left a lump in the stomach of many a liberal, because you guys fast-tracked Kerry to the top of the line on the basis of his “war hero” status, then you got slammed by it.

Now we have the opposite:  We have the supposed similarity between a story told by McCain and a passage in a book calling into question McCain’s story, even though the only thing the two stories have in common is the cross in the dirt (in the other version it’s a fellow prisoner, and he uses a stick rather than a sandal...)

What we’re hearing now is that that the cross in the dirt story never even appears in The Gulag Archipelago:

Anyway, this settles two aspects of this tale: This never happened to Solzhenitsyn, and there’s no way McCain could have picked it up from his works.

As Joel mentions, the other “cross in the dirt” story apparently originates with an evangelical who attributes his parable to The Gulag Archipelago.

Either way, McCain’s story is better than the one he supposedly was ripping off.  If you can’t tell a parable in church, where can you tell one?

wink

LOL

Carrick on August 20, 2008 at 08:03 am

Carrick opined:

We have the supposed similarity between a story told by McCain and a passage in a book calling into question McCain’s story, even though the only thing the two stories have in common is the cross in the dirt (in the other version it’s a fellow prisoner, and he uses a stick rather than a sandal...)

Except that the scene does not appear in any of the three volumes of the GULag ArchipilAGo nor in any other writings by Solzhenitsyn.  I refrained from commenting on this until Solzhenitsyn’s official biographer waded in since:

1.  It’s been over twenty years since I read Gulag.
2.  I don’t have time to re-read it now.
3.  My not remembering any such scene was hardly conclusive given items 1 and 2 above.

Pity our leftards (who won’t even correct themselves when caught in obvious error or falsehood) don’t hold themselves to a similar standard.


Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Rodney Graves on August 20, 2008 at 03:15 pm
Avatar for Jackie Chestnut

McCain was definitely having a Solzhenitsyn moment-very few people want to call him on it. After all it’s only the other party that has to be accountable. And the blind shall continue leading the blind.

Jackie Chestnut on August 20, 2008 at 07:22 pm

Gentlemen,

This whole “issue” little more than leftist make-believe, suggesting nothing so much as the fact that while liberals (at least of few of them) may know their Russian literature, they know nothing about military service.

Everyone who flies Air Force, Navy, or Marine Corps aircraft, particularly in areas deemed less than friendly to US interests, is required to classes in Escape and evasion, interrogation resistance, and mock (barely!) POW training.  And while no one who teaches these classes advocates trying to write out name, rank and serial number in stones across the front lawn of a POW camp, pilots and crewmen are taught a variety of codes, symbols, voice intonation and handwriting anomalies to convey information to those on the outside world.  The cross in the dirt, a symbol highly unlikely to occur in nature, was most likely just such a sign.  That Russian prisoners in the Gulag resorted to similar signs in hardly surprising.  The tap-tap codes described by James Stockdale, Jeremiah Denton, Bud Day, John McCain, and others was similar to one used by prisoners the world over, including Russia.

Ultimately, the reason the Swift Boat Vets were so effective against John Kerry was because what they said was the truth.  This rhetorical counter-punch at McCain… four years later… has all the force of a dab of Chapstick.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 20, 2008 at 07:57 pm

Gentlemen,

This whole “issue” little more than leftist make-believe, suggesting nothing so much as the fact that while liberals (at least of few of them) may know their Russian literature, they know nothing about military service.


Bat One on August 20, 2008 at 07:57 pm

Bat One. In your zeal to imitate Michaelangelo and or El Greco I say you failed miserably. Instead of picking the proper small sized brush necessary for the detailed painting in front of you you picked up a very broad one. I suggest you stick with your day job.
In case you used the broad brush on purpose, are you willing to go on record that “liberals” in our military are worthless know nothings because they cannot learn?
Surely you will reconsider such a slanderous statement against those that are serving for your freedom. Aren’t you?

ellinas on August 20, 2008 at 08:27 pm

… are you willing to go on record that “liberals” in our military are worthless know nothings because they cannot learn?

ellinas,

What a silly question!  It is conservatives who stand for optimism and hope, while liberals are seemingly always complaining about miserable everything is.  If liberals, whether in the military or not, were incapable of learning, there would be no hope that they would ever learn enough to become conservatives!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on August 20, 2008 at 08:38 pm

Good answer.

ellinas on August 20, 2008 at 08:43 pm