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Thursday, February 22, 2007

Democrats To Propose Legislation Limiting Scope Of Mission In Iraq

And by “limiting” I mean they’re trying to dictate to the military which specific tribe of Islamic zealots they can attack.

WASHINGTON - Determined to challenge President Bush, Senate Democrats are drafting legislation to limit the mission of U.S. troops in Iraq, effectively revoking the broad authority Congress granted in 2002, officials said Thursday.

While these officials said the precise wording of the measure remains unsettled, one draft would restrict American troops in Iraq to combating al-Qaida, training Iraqi army and police forces, maintaining Iraq’s territorial integrity and otherwise proceeding with the withdrawal of combat forces.

The officials, Democratic aides and others familiar with private discussions, spoke only on condition of anonymity, saying rank-and-file senators had not yet been briefed on the effort. They added, though, the Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is expected to present the proposal to fellow Democrats early next week for their consideration.

The plan is to attempt to add the measure to anti-terrorism legislation that scheduled to be on the Senate floor next week and the week following.

The bolded statement is interesting in that it highlights the continued disconnect from the realities of Iraq by Democrats.

How can anyone who isn’t blinded by pure partisan hatred think it’s a good idea to narrow the scope of the authorization for war in Iraq to allow our troops only to one specific terror group.  What happens if the Mahdi Army unleashes a barrage of mortar fire?  Are our troops supposed to simply retreat?  What if that same groups overruns Iraqi forces and threatens to topple the Iraqi government?  Are our troops to stand by and watch what they’ve fought and died get destroyed all because Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid wanted to stick it to Bush?

What if our troops or Iraqis are attacked by one of the dozen or so other terror groups aside from al Qaeda known to operate in Iraq?  Contrary to popular liberal opinion, the war on terror does not begin and end with al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

And besides, is it even constitutional for Congress to try and dictate the rules of engagement to the President and the military in this fashion?  It seems to me that Congress’ constitutional duties with regard to war are fairly limited.  They authorize it and de-authorize it, and they fund it.  That’s it.  I don’t think it’s wise to send our troops put our troops in harms way while telling them “You can attack these people who are trying to kill you, but not these people who are trying to kill you.”

Regardless, this isn’t likely to pass.  With Lieberman putting his foot down and Sen. Johnson from SD out for the foreseeable future as he convalesces the Dems don’t even have a simple majority in the Senate on these sorts of issues, let alone the 60 votes it would take to invoke cloture or the 2/3’s it would take to override the President’s inevitable veto.

So, really, this is just an exercise in futility.  Yet another way for the Democrats to undermine the mission in Iraq and demoralize the public while not really accomplishing anything substantial at all.

Comments

I just hope the Dems keep threatening to exercise a non-existent authority to micro-manage the war, while we keep destroying the capabilities of those who fight against a self-governing Iraq there.  Pretty soon people will notice the Dems’ fecklessness in the face of our troops’ resolve.  The comparison will be stark and one-sided. The Dems reeeeally won’t be taken seriously. IF you ask me??? BUT no one ever asks me…

Zsa Zsa on February 22, 2007 at 07:30 pm
Avatar for bezelt

In 2003, Mr. Bush presented a single objective in his Iraq plan. He wanted to do a regime change in Iraq. That was the Bush team’s goal...to do a regime change.

The Bush team’s “civilian generals” had a new way to fight a war. It wasn’t going to take long. Be in and out in a hurry.

That did not happen. We are still there. Something happened to the Bush team’s performance. The rhetoric continued - non stop - but it had little connection to good performance.

So their regime change did not fix Iraq. It broke Iraq. Now the Bush team had no clue as to how to fix what they broke and no idea how long it would take. They appealed to their faithful with more rhetoric. It was no longer just Iraq that was the problem, now it was the world. Though they messed up the terrorist-Iraq link, now they wanted America and the world to watch them fix world terrorism.

But now, America and many other countries are starting to say no. They are not saying no to fighting terrorism. They are saying no to the BUSH TEAMS fighting terrorism. The Bush team has been ineffective in fighting terrorism. The Bush team seems to be saying(thats rhetoric not performance) they are the chosen ones to fight terrorism.

The Bush team seems to be saying that it is the only one the terrorist fear. That is a joke. Iraq proves that is a joke. Terrorists in Iraq are not afraid to fight the Bush team. Iraq was and still is in CHAOS. and there is no solution in sight.

If the Bush team was managing the Iraq war for a civilian company, they would all be history by now.

bezelt on February 23, 2007 at 06:54 am
Avatar for iam

What an idiotic piece.  Did congress in 1941 “micromanage” WWII by declaring war only on Japan and Germany?  Does a war declaration give the President, no matter how incompetent, a green light to attack anyone in the world?  There are terror groups all over the world, are we to interject ourselvres into the fighing in Bolivia?  In Turkey?  In Lebanon?  Sri Lanka?  What a idiotic and typically conservative piece.

iam on February 23, 2007 at 09:12 am
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Did congress in 1941 “micromanage” WWII by declaring war only on Japan and Germany?

No, of course not.  But they would have been micromanaging the war if they’d said “You can only use this many troops, you can only attack the SS and not the regular German army and you have to be done by this date.”

Does a war declaration give the President, no matter how incompetent, a green light to attack anyone in the world?

Are you implying that Bush has somehow exceeded the scope of Congress’ authorization for war in Iraq?  If so, please explain, because it’s pretty clear to me that he hasn’t.

There are terror groups all over the world, are we to interject ourselvres into the fighing in Bolivia?  In Turkey?  In Lebanon?  Sri Lanka?  What a idiotic and typically conservative piece.

We are fighting a war against an ideology.  We are showing the world that we will topple tyrants who oppress their people and promote, support or engage in terrorism.  That’s a powerful message that is intended to have ripple effects in all the places you mentioned.

But tell me, if you don’t support Bush’s policies on terrorism then how exactly would you solve the terrorism problem in all the places you mentioned?


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2007 at 09:17 am
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I said-Did congress in 1941 “micromanage” WWII by declaring war only on Japan and Germany?

You said-No, of course not.  But they would have been micromanaging the war if they’d said “You can only use this many troops, you can only attack the SS and not the regular German army and you have to be done by this date.”

- Are we talking about the same war resolution?  The focus is to be on al-qaida (read Germany, Japan, those who attacked us or our allies) your reply implies that the resolution speaks only of al-qaida in iraq and not of al-qaida in general.  Of course I would expect this distortion from someone with a weak arguement.  Also, if FDR had attacked Korea and Finland instead of Japan and Germany and was not making progress against those who attacked us, I would hope saner minds would prevail and force th administration to actually wage an effective war.

I said-Does a war declaration give the President, no matter how incompetent, a green light to attack anyone in the world?

You said-Are you implying that Bush has somehow exceeded the scope of Congress’ authorization for war in Iraq?  If so, please explain, because it’s pretty clear to me that he hasn’t.

- bush has no cause in the war resolution to intervene in any intra-iraqi conflict, thats the Iraqi govt’s job.

I said-There are terror groups all over the world, are we to interject ourselvres into the fighing in Bolivia?  In Turkey?  In Lebanon?  Sri Lanka?  What a idiotic and typically conservative piece.

You said-We are fighting a war against an ideology.  We are showing the world that we will topple tyrants who oppress their people and promote, support or engage in terrorism.  That’s a powerful message that is intended to have ripple effects in all the places you mentioned.

-a couple points, first you don’t fight ideology with tanks, you fight ideology with ideology.  Second, we aren’t toppling tyrants anywhere else who oppress their people and promote, support or engage in terrorism.  The attack in Iraq has made terrorism worse, not better, those ripple effects have turned deadly.

But tell me, if you don’t support Bush’s policies on terrorism then how exactly would you solve the terrorism problem in all the places you mentioned?

-there you go again, another pie-in-the-sky, we-can-solve everyones-problems-in-the-world-conservative.  What other maladies around the world should the US fix with our mighty armies?

iam on February 23, 2007 at 09:47 am
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The focus is to be on al-qaida (read Germany, Japan, those who attacked us or our allies) your reply implies that the resolution speaks only of al-qaida in iraq and not of al-qaida in general.

Your reply speaks to your ignorance of the situation in Iraq, where our troops face terror groups other than al Qaeda and threats from groups that don’t necessarily meet the definition of “terror group” at all.

This isn’t a war like those in the past.  The enemy doesn’t wear a uniform and isn’t necessarily from one country.  So yes, by trying to define the scope of the war down to just “al Qaeda” they are, in fact, micromanaging the war.

bush has no cause in the war resolution to intervene in any intra-iraqi conflict, thats the Iraqi govt’s job.

From the relevant text of the Iraq AUMF:

Authorization.--The President is authorized to use the Armed
Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and
appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States
against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council
resolutions regarding Iraq.

Surely you recognize that part of eliminating Iraq as a threat to the U.S. lays in leaving that country as a democracy, and not a rogue state with a weak government that can’t police the criminals and terrorists within it’s own borders.

IF you had your way, we’d leave Iraq, chaos would ensue and the country would return to what it was.  A rogue state that sponsors terrorism in the middle east and against the west.

a couple points, first you don’t fight ideology with tanks, you fight ideology with ideology.

I agree that you fight ideology with ideology, but how do you propose that we bring our ideology to the middle east when the people who oppose us are willing to us, civilians and themselves in order to promote their ideology?

I think you have a rather naive world view.

there you go again, another pie-in-the-sky, we-can-solve everyones-problems-in-the-world-conservative.  What other maladies around the world should the US fix with our mighty armies?

So then you recognize the threat of terrorism in the world, but you don’t have any ideas of your own on how to address it.

How typical.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2007 at 10:06 am

iam said, first you don’t fight ideology with tanks, you fight ideology with ideology

Almost every war is a battle between ideologies.

The Nazis weren’t defeated with rhetoric. They were defeated with war.

Or is that reality too “pie-in-the-sky” iam?

likwidshoe on February 23, 2007 at 10:24 am
Avatar for iam

Rob - Enough of the name-calling.

Most of what you post is either irrelevant or absurd.  No one is for any lagislation that prevents our military from defending themselves.  That’s one of your absurd points.  If a group of conservative religious murderers attacks our people, we certainly have the right to defend ourselves.  The resolution does not prevent this self-defense.

As for the rest of your reply, it’s all just made-up.  How many times do I have to say it?  The US can defend itself.  If any group, terrorist or not, tries to do us harm we can and should, do harm to them.  Iraq posed NO threat to the US and niether do the Shia and Sunni (in general, I’m sure there are some of them that would like nothing better)
There have been lots of wars like this, our own war for independence was guerilla warfare with no uniforms with fighters from all over(Indian, French).  The Vietnam war was guerrila warfare and I’m sure lots of others as well. 

As to point 1 of the authorization; there was NO threat from Iraq before march, 2003.  The possible threat exists BECAUSE of bush’s incompetence and ideology.  It’s the case of the arsonist firefighter, one can’t start a fire to justify putting it out.  The arsonist is jailed and others intervene to put out the fire, get it?
Point 2 of the authorization; What UN resolution allows the use of force to intervene in an internal religious conflict?  You want to copy and paste that too?
Your points here are both irrelevant and absurd.

If I make an invalid point call me on it but don’t call me ignorant and naive.

iam on February 23, 2007 at 10:47 am

The Libs always seem to have lots of complaints. BUT never any real answers other than cut and run…

Zsa Zsa on February 23, 2007 at 10:50 am
Avatar for iam

To likwidshoe,

Remember we didn’t enter WWII until we were attacked… WITH TANKS!  We didn’t attack germany because thay were nazis, we attacked them because THEY ATTACKED US!  Do you not get the difference?

iam on February 23, 2007 at 10:52 am
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To Zsa Zsa,

You know “Lib” is short for both Liberal and Liberty.  That’s what Liberalism means.  Our country was founded on the bedrock principles of Liberalism; Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

iam on February 23, 2007 at 10:58 am

To iam,
What I mean by Lib is one who wants to let government spend it’s citizens money liberally!… To take from and spend unwisely!

Zsa Zsa on February 23, 2007 at 11:07 am

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Majority of Americans want to put an end to the Iraq war. The elections proved it. We live in a democracy and the majority rules....correct?


“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D on February 23, 2007 at 11:34 am
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Zsa Zsa,

So the past 6 years in Washington, conservatives did all the crazy spending, how can that be if Liberals are the spenders? - and it was our childrens money they used!  Isn’t that outrageous!  In reality, to be responsible with your resources is a hallmark of Liberalism.  “Let’s not use it all up now for ourselves, let sacrifice a little so everyone else can reap the benefits as we have” - this pretty much sums it up. 
One can spend too much and one can spend too little, it all depends on how you spend it.  If you spend it to concentrate power, it’s done in the name of conservatism, if you spend to liberate power, you do it in the name of Liberalism.

iam on February 23, 2007 at 11:38 am
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We live in a democracy and the majority rules....correct?

Government by popularity polls! What a brilliant idea! And here we were stumbling along in our representative republic for all these years!


Excuse me, you were saying?

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Proof on February 23, 2007 at 11:39 am

Government by popularity polls! What a brilliant idea! And here we were stumbling along in our representative republic for all these years!

Did you vote last election Proof?


“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D on February 23, 2007 at 11:41 am
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At least once…


Excuse me, you were saying?

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Proof on February 23, 2007 at 11:42 am

Good, so you were part of the majority to throw those bozo’s out?


“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D on February 23, 2007 at 11:43 am
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throw those bozo’s out?

I’m afraid you’ll have to be a little more specific than that. There were bozos aplenty on both sides!


Excuse me, you were saying?

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Proof on February 23, 2007 at 11:48 am

And still are.


“We have a dollar that’s adjusting and I am for a strong dollar.....
Our dollar doesn’t buy as many barrels of oil as it used to and so therefore it’s more expensive for the American people”..... Bush 3/12/08

Mark D on February 23, 2007 at 11:49 am
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There were bozos aplenty on both sides!

And still are.

Buy your lottery ticket today! We are in perfect agreement!


Excuse me, you were saying?

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Proof on February 23, 2007 at 11:52 am
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Any reauthorization that is passed will get vetoed and doesn’t have enough voted to override that veto so the entire thing is political masturbation on the Dems part. I don’t doubt that they sincerely want to bring the troops home though. That’s eveident in that their best plan since the 06 election is to pass a non-binding resolution that says they don’t agree with the administration. I mean, even they are stupid enough to believe that if they win the White House in 08 and we are still engaged in Iraq that “disagreeing with Bush is enough of a plan to deal with the realities of Iraq.”

Besides, if they can defuse Iraq, they hope to yank the need for Guliani out from under the American people so that they can focus their energy on the revisionist history to claim that the last 4 years of economic improvement that the media wouldn’t report is actually because of them.

Rob B. on February 23, 2007 at 03:37 pm
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