Democrats: Republicans Want To Repeal The 17th Amendment!

WASHINGTON - FEBRUARY 06: (AFP OUT) Democratic National Committee chairman TIm Kaine delivers remarks at the DNC winter meeting on February 6, 2010 in Washington, DC. Top party officials and supporters gathered for the annual meeting to map out their agenda for the year. (Photo by Brendan Hoffman/Getty Images)

And they say that like it’s a bad thing, according to Peggy Noonan:

“Thus the new DNC scare ad, which features the usual “Jaws”-like monster music, and then the charge that the Tea Party and the GOP are “one and the same.” Not only that, they’re cooking up a plan to “get rid of” or privatize Social Security and Medicare, repeal the 17th Amendment, and abolish the departments of energy and education and the EPA.”

Here’s the ad in question:

As Neal Boortz points out, this is typical of Democrats in campaign mode. Since 1952 Democrats have been campaigning on the idea that Republicans will get rid of Social Security, and for 58 years Social Security has stayed put. It, along with the rest of the claims made in the video, is a tired old mantra.

Which isn’t to say that Social Security shouldn’t go on the chopping block. Shallow political scare tactics aside, we’ve got to do something as the program is an unsustainable ponzi scheme.

But I digress. What’s interesting to me is the mention of repealing the 17th amendment. Interesting not just because I doubt that many Americans could even tell you what the 17th amendment did, but also interesting because the last member of Congress to suggest repealing the 17th amendment was…Democrat Zell Miller who did so just before retiring.

So much for it being merely the domain of right-wing tea party extremists.

The 17th amendment, by the way, changed the manner in which our US Senators are chosen. Previously the Senators were appointed by the states. The 17th amendment made them popularly elected like the members of the House. The way our founders set things up, the House was intended to represent the populace. The Senate was to represent the various state governments. The Senate, put another way, was a counterbalance to the more direct democracy of the House. It was a check against the whims of the mob, essentially.

We never should have changed that, and the fallout from changing it is palpable even today. For instance, if the Senate was appointed by the states as opposed to popularly elected do you think the Congress would have ever been able to pass a health care bill that hugely expands already bankrupt government health care programs like Medicaid at the expense of states who, by and large, can’t afford it? Do you think that the steady erosion of localism, the transfer of political power from the state level to the national level, would have happened to the degree it has if the Senate were appointed by the states?

Of course not.

Liberals love the 17th amendment because it moved us away from the sort of distributed government our founders preferred to the centralized, all-powerful federal government they prefer. Undoing the 17th amendment is no radical notion. It would be the correction of a mistake, and a restoration of the republic to a form our founding fathers would approve of.

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  • http://intensedebate.com/people/SigFan SigFan

    I heard a comment by Beck the other day (I think it was him) about the tired old Dem "the Republicans are going to take away SS" ploy that they are ginning up again. The comment was that in fact every time any changes or reductions have been made in SS it has been the Democrats that proposed and enacted it. I don't know for certain that is true, but it wouldn't shock me at all if it were. If anyone has a source that could verify or refute it I would appreciate the link. I hope the public has gotten wise to this tired old canard and will throw it back in the Democrats faces this time. Unfortunately though, there are probably a significant number of people who will believe it.

  • tom

    Repeal the 17th? Let's Git er done!!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/AKAWOOF AKAWOOF

    Deny thy father and refuse thy name.
    Protect Social Security.
    Advance democracy.
    No longer be a Republican.

    We'll welcome you beside the golden door of freedom.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Onslaught1066 Onslaught1066

      Didn't Demeo and Liberalette both die at the end of this progressive tragedy.

      golden door, pearly gate, whatever.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

      The cake is a lie!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

    Well, we sure could stand to "abolish the departments of energy and education and the EPA.” Look at the bucks we'd save.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/suitepotato suitepotato

      The DoE is not generally among the bodies I'd reduce. It still has a vital part to play in nuclear energy research and organization. The problem in this case IS the states and the mob, playing NIMBY all the time. They all want cheap energy that lasts for a few thousand years, but they want it in someone else's back yard.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/party_of_edd party_of_edd

        It's DOE, not DoE! And it's no surprise that you would resent where you came from. You have a lot of self hate, and that is evident by your posts. You resent the DOE because you failed the opportunity to obtaining a valuable education, it did not fail you.

        My bet is that you came from a poor family and that is why you resent the poor and pretend to be a fan of the rich. You most likely pretend you belong to the group you do not fit in.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

          That was the most random, stupid rant I've ever read.

  • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tarpon tarpon

    Agree, the 17th Amendment gave us the "Schumer seat" in perpetuity. A bad thing for everyone. The States now get unfunded mandates out the wazoo, and the people get socialism. Woodrow Wilson managed to get this done on the early 20th century "new progressive" mass hypnosis. The States and their Senators were supposed to stabilize, limit the federal out of control government — Like what we have today.

    Early 20th Century Progressives — It's also the root of our current Republican progressives, they bought the koolaide.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Tots4Masses Tots4Masses

      The statement to "…stabilize, limit the federal out of control government" is exactly right. Now we the people have realized that we can vote ourselves all sorts of benefits such as "Free Healthcare" that we CAN'T AFFORD! The lack of a counterbalance in the Senate is what allowed it to go through.

      I'm ready to push for it to be repealed.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

        one has to wonder if the Senate was controlled by at least Republicans if not Conservatives if this would get any notice from any one on this board?

        • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/tarpon tarpon

          If something is bad it's bad, and the 17th Amendment was a bad move.

          No matter who is in charge. My guess is Democrats always forget their will be a tommorrow.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

        You are right. The Senate was put in as a counterbalance to the democracy of the masses represented by The House. Now for you Conservatives and Libertarians this mus gall you since it suggests that people cannot think for themselve so gov't must be installed to controll the masses. Nanny Statism in its infancy. Ouch that has to hurt.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

          That's a very superficial and typically predictable answer. It wasn't about nanny stat ism. It was designed to slow the pace of legislature and the growth of government. It was thought that the Senate, being voted on by the state legislature, would protect the interests of the State and check the power of the Federal Government.

          • boborygmi

            "The Founding Fathers were more than a little suspicious of democracy, which is why they chose to structure the selection of Senators as they did " Bat. "e are right on the cusp of what the Founders most feared about democracy… the likelihood of the majority of voters using government to loot the property and wealth of those who are more successful. " These are also Bats words. FEAR of democracy Fear of majority of voters …. This means they believed some control some gov't control was/is needed. We the founders have to protect the people from themselves, thus the Nanny State is born.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

    1: produce an amendment to repeal the 17th. It is part of the Constitution. Live with it, change it or shut up. 2: You complain about 'we the people ' not having the power they should have going so far as to push for a recall of our Senator. Now you would diminish the power of the people, their vote, and let the state gov't decide. WTF can't have it both ways.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

      As I recall, then-Senator Zell Miller introduced a proposal for a constitutional amendment to repeal the 17th. This was before he made burbling mincemeat out of Chris "Tingle" Matthews on national TV.

      The Founding Fathers were more than a little suspicious of democracy, which is why they chose to structure the selection of Senators as they did. Repealing the 17th has far more upside than down.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

        again you are against the one power you have your vote. If you give up independence/your power to a State Gov't you are still giving up your power. The Founding Fathers didn't trust a true democracy but they did install a process to amend. Now if the Founding Fathers didn't trust a democracy why allow any sort of process for a recall. Isn't a recall basic populism democracy?

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/party_of_edd party_of_edd

        I recall that Zell Miller made himself a fool by acting like a raving mad man. I believe he exhibited his desire to kill another American for having a differing opinion.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

          As Dalton once put it, "Opinions vary."

          Here in Georgia Zell Miller is regarded as a hero, by Republicans who questioned his initial appointment to fill Paul Coverdale's seat, and Democrats alike. His "desire to kill another American" as you so breathlessly put it, was merely an exercise in hyperbole… something with which you wouldn't have any familiarity, right?

          Snort!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/thormat thormat

          Like most of the lib trolls on this blog.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/goon48 goon48

    I think it is a great idea.

  • http://www.restorefederalism.org RestoreFederalism

    The repeal of the 17th amendment has so much going for it ( http://www.restorefederalism.org ) that all political parties should be in favor of it. Thoughtful people from all political persuasions – not just evil Republicans – can get behind it. Democrats like Zell and editorialists in Slate.com have supported the idea. Just note that those who are opposed to repeal never give good reasons for the status quo, they only deem the idea “crazy” and move on.

  • stillings

    The Dems want to repeal the ENTIRE Constitution.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/The_Whistler The_Whistler

      By twisting the constitution to mean things that it never did.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

    Is this a poem?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/navtechie navtechie

    52% of those that see this ad are too stupid, ignorant or brain dead to understand or disbelieve its claims.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/sbark76 sbark76

    A repeal of the 17th would let the State Congress recall a Senator who is consistently voting against the states populace on major issues (Obamacare, cap/tax) , such as Conrad/Dorgan ………..we wouldnt need a dozen lawyers, a string of State AG's, a bunch of judges ……and of course millions of dollars
    ………..all to just think about it

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

      polls are not legally binding, votes are. Now you want to give away the power the people have to a State Gov't.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

        To a state government elected by the voters of that state? Yep! We are right on the cusp of what the Founders most feared about democracy… the likelihood of the majority of voters using government to loot the property and wealth of those who are more successful.

        Unlike you, the Founders understood the dangers and the limits of a democracy. But then what would you know about democracy? You're a Democrat!

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

          Whats the difference then. Why not the voters that vote in the Senator. Instead you would have one more layer of government.
          "Unlike you, the Founders understood the dangers and the limits of a democracy" Again they know better then the masses. Sounds like elitism to me. I thought you hated that. Sounds also like Nanny State in its infancy.
          "To a state government elected by the voters of that state" EXPANDING, " to a federal government elected by the voters of the country. YEP
          "the likelihood of the majority of voters…….." I thought the majority was suppose to be followed, Majority of the voters don't want Obamacare, Majority of the voters are conservative, majority of the voters want less gun control. majority of the voters want less gov't interference
          But now when the majority of the voters want gov't and thats not a good thing.
          WTF can't have it both ways. Perhaps you left a phrase out" A majority of the voters who think like I do are the only correct majority and are the only ones that should have the power. "

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Not exactly your best effort here. Go back and re-read your Constitution. And if you are even moderately clever, you'll see that the Founders placed their limits on the expansion of the FEDERAL government, not the states.

            As for what the majority wants, that is democracy, which is something, at the federal level at least, the Founders were more than little leery of. And with good reason, as I've poiinted out above.

            You might also want to consider upgrading your vocabulary. Your continued use of "I thought" is laughable, and an insult to the intelligence of your readers who know better.

          • liberal_larry10

            4. Attack the messenger while avoiding the message. This type of response can range from not-so-subtle attacks on the credibility of the individual opponent or the source of facts quoted, to more insidious personal insult and hateful vitriole aimed at those who dare challenge right-wing orthodoxy. Again, the object is maneuver out of the rhetorical corner without addressing the reason for being boxed in to begin with. This is but another form of obfuscation.

            http://sayanythingblog.com/entry/liberal-argument…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Are you really so ignorant and cognitively dysfunctional that you can't read your own bastardized comments correcty??? Let me draw your attention to the phrase "… while avoiding the message."

            Now, despite the fact that "booby" made a haltingly circular, patently adolescent argument, avoiding rather than addressing the points I had made, I still managed to answer his "points," with constitutional reference, while still taking note of his unfamiliarity with the Constitution and proper English usage… and all without so much as a drop of sweat.

            Besides, considering the number of times you have found yourself rhetorically cornered and chosen to turn tail and run instead of facing up to your defeat, I can't see that your criticism has much value. But thanks for playing all the same.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            4. Attack the messenger while avoiding the message. This type of response can range from not-so-subtle attacks on the credibility of the individual opponent or the source of facts quoted, to more insidious personal insult and hateful vitriole aimed at those who dare challenge right-wing orthodoxy. Again, the object is maneuver out of the rhetorical corner without addressing the reason for being boxed in to begin with. This is but another form of obfuscation.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            As for what the majority wants, that is democracy, which is something, at the federal level at least, the Founders were more than little leery of. And with good reason, as I've poiinted out above.

            So much for the Tea Party and that popular vote against Obama care!!

          • http://ndgoon.blogspot.com goon48

            So how do you decide which log in to use? Do you flip a coin and say today I am Larry the Liberal Moron or Hannitized? Being a sock puppet must be hard…

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Au contraire, Dumb-a$$!!! What was being discussed prior to your witless intrusion was the institutionalization of democracy, not another childish rationalization for the autocratic imposition of secular socialism favored by the freedom-hating loons of the Left – from Obama all the way down to you and your assorted sock puppets.

          • liberal_larry10

            Bat, you smack yourself in the mouth with your own words. Every time you burp out a sentence it's like that right-wing talking point comes back to smack you in your mouth like a boomerang.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Now THIS is what's properly known as ad hominem… a petty attempt at insult without any pretense of a substantive answer to the points raised. No answer to the charge of leftist "imposition of autocratic socialism." No addressing the on-going charge of sock puppetry. Just more boring, unimaginative insults.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            According to Rob Port, it's not an ad hominem if I am accurately describing you and your actions. :)

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Given your anti-freedom, anti-free market, hyper-partisan lack of objectivity, and of course that language dysfunction thing, its hard to take seriously the idea of you "accurately describing" anything with which you disagree. Which makes the whole question hypothetical, regardless of what Rob, or Merriam-Webster have to say about it, or which sock puppet you happen to be using at the time.

          • liberal_larry10

            Because you are anti-small business and pro-giant corporation, it's hard to take any criticism you level against us American capitalist loving citizens, who stand by what the founding fathers envisioned for our country.

            Not to mention the fact that you can't seem to articulate honestly your disdain for fiscal responsibility, while simultaneously bastardizing Reganomics and throwing all of Reagan's economic advisors under the bus when they tell you that you are harming the countries economic status.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            I guess imitation is STILL the highest form of flattery. Thanks so much for the compliment!

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/liberal_larry10 liberal_larry10

            I was quoting you. Not quite the same thing, hysterical one.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            No.. you weren't quoting me. You were intentionally MIS-quoting what I had written in yet another puerile attempt at being clever.

            So again, thanks for the compliment. In an odd way, its gratifying to know that when you are stumped for something substantive to say, you turn to those of us who are, demonstrably, your intellectual superiors for enlightenment. Pity it doesn't stick!

          • liberal_larry10

            Bat_One, how do you come to the conclusion that by putting your exact wording in block quotes, it is not quoting you?

            Is English your first language? I quoted you and then made a comment based on what you said.

            Either the founding fathers did not want direct democracy (not "democracy", you dumb@ss), or they did. You can not have it both ways.

            If the founding fathers believed, as you say, that they had good reason to dismiss popular opinion, then who really cares what the Tea Party people have to say about Obamacare? Right?

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            Recycling garbage is not to be considered imitation.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            e, Its comforting to see that you are still able to live down to the expectations of the rest of us… no matter how low those expectations sink.

          • http://intensedebate.com/profiles/ellinas1 ellinas1

            Not living my life according to your low expectations, nor do I seek your approval for anything.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

        Yes, whats the problem? The Tenth Amendment clearly states all powers not SPECIFICALLY delegated to the Federal Government are reserved for the People or the States.

        The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

        The original make up of Congress was designed to give both parties, the State and the People,
        representation in Congress.
        http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/commo…

        Article I, section 3, "The Senate of the United States shall be composed of two Senators from each state, chosen by the legislature thereof for six Years; and each Senator shall have one Vote." The election of delegates to the Constitutional Convention established the precedent for state selection. The framers believed that in electing senators, state legislatures would cement their tie with the national government, which would increase the chances for ratifying the Constitution. They also expected that senators elected by state legislatures would be able to concentrate on the business at hand without pressure from the populace.

        • Bat One

          Greg, This discussion, and your response, bring to mind an interesting question: Perhaps, in addition to the 17th Amendment, it might be time to re-visit the 14th Amendment!? By bringing the states under the same umbrella of consitutional restriction, the 14th forced the federal government into a position of primacy that the Founders never intended. The fact that the federal government is way too powerful and way too intrusive should be reason enough to take a hard look at the 14th Amendment and the restrictions it placed, directly and indirectly, on the states.

          • Greg in Alabama

            I agree. The Federal Government was designed to do things that were national in scope, defense, regulate trade, treat with foreign Governments. It was never designed to lord over the States. In fact it had severe limits. We've went way beyond those limits. Thomas Jefferson put it like this…

            I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground that 'all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states or to the people.' To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, not longer susceptible of any definition.

            We let Congress grab way to much power. The scary thing is, they are not the Branch of Government that has had the biggest power grab. Hands down the worst power grab in our system is that of the Judiciary. They were never intended to be as powerful as they are now.

            Quote from Thomas Jefferson.

            At the establishment of our constitutions, the judiciary bodies were supposed to be the most helpless and harmless members of the government. Experience, however, soon showed in what way they were to become the most dangerous; that the insufficiency of the means provided for their removal gave them a freehold and irresponsibility in office; that their decisions, seeming to concern individual suitors only, pass silent and unheeded by the public at large; that these decisions, nevertheless, become law by precedent, sapping, by little and little, the foundations of the constitution, and working its change by construction, before any one has perceived that that invisible and helpless worm has been busily employed in consuming its substance. In truth, man is not made to be trusted for life, if secured against all liability to account.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/VladTaltos VladTaltos

            The fact that conservatives quote Jefferson just proves how ignorant they are. He distrusted the military and loved the people. The exact opposite of conservatives. If he was alive today you would savage him.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Enigma_Cypher Enigma_Cypher

            You're switching the subject. The quote was about the powers given to the federal government , not the military.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

            The fact that you offered no real substance and resorted to an attack proves more about you than anything you said about conservatives Counselor. Please feel free to dispute anything I said with actual quotes, facts or thoughts. One line answers are easy or are you to stupid to do any research of your own?

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

            By bringing the states under the same umbrella of consitutional restriction, the 14th forced the federal government into a position of primacy that the Founders never intended.

            One thing we all forget today is that the Constitution is a grant of power to the Federal Government by the States and the People, with limited duties and power. The Fourteenth Amendment flipped that status on its head. All power rests with the Federal Government and the States need permission to govern.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

            Greg, This reminder of yours may well be the most important thing posted on SAB all year! We forget it at our mortal peril.

            One thing we all forget today is that the Constitution is a grant of power to the Federal Government by the States and the People, with limited duties and power. The Fourteenth Amendment flipped that status on its head. All power rests with the Federal Government and the States need permission to govern.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

            I am interested in knowing what part of the 14th you object to. Is it : All persons born or naturalized in the United States …….are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside? Or perhaps it is: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; or was it Section 4 banning States wanting payment for the rebellion they sponsored or"any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave… .

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

            By bringing the states under the same umbrella of consitutional restriction, the 14th forced the federal government into a position of primacy that the Founders never intended.

            Its all right there in the answer we gave earlier. We now have a Federal Government so powerful that it feels free to regulate the type of light bulb that we buy and the kind of shower head we and toilet we can use.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

            Didn't answer the question.. What part of the 14th do you disagree with and would like to cut. Three questions above surely of those you must have an opinion.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

            no cajones on this board

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

            Ok without resorting to a long and boring answer, the Due Process clause. Through the Incorporation Doctrine this clause has taken on a power of its own. Turning the balance of power from the State government to the Federal government. Its a lot like the Interstate Commerce Clause where everything can be justified through "interstate commerce". Which is why we have politicians telling us there is nothing the Federal Government can't do.

          • boborygmi

            Thank you so when you write the amendment to overturn this amendment they strike that clause……… So then the corrected Amendment should read
            The States have the right to make and enforce laws that abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States;and the states may deprive any person of life, liberty,or property with the due process of law and this law shall supersede Federal law. I take it the rest of the 14th is alright.

          • http://enigma-cypher.blogspot.com/ Enigma_Cypher

            That's not what he meant and you know it.

            The rights enumerated in the Constitution are adhered to by the states as part of their membership in the Union. The federal government was never meant to become the all-encompassing monstrosity that it is today.

          • Greg in Alabama

            Well said.

          • boborygmi

            Again want was wrong at that time that made it necessary to creat the 14th. If you take away what the 14th proscibes isn't what I wrote what you would have. It gives the states rights to make laws. Don't all laws allow some gov't entity to deprive some freedom somehow. It would have been bad if the phase without due process would have been included.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

          Whats the difference then

          The Senate was supposed to be more deliberate and resistant to pressure from fads or trends. Our entire system of Government was designed to work slowly and be resistant to change so laws would have to be well thought out and vigorously debated you know, Checks and Balances.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000876812467 Bruce Hass

    I like everything about this ad, except the theme music. Should be a show stopper. Happy days are here again, maybe. The Republicans could use the ad themselves.

  • gun toting Liberal

    Obama the DEMOCRAT is my President…The US Senate is DEMOCRAT….the US House of Representatives is DEMOCRAT…get over it and get a life ND teabaggers and neocons…

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

      We'll see if that still holds true in November! Cheerio!

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/goon48 goon48

        I think there is going to be a drubbing in November.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Enigma_Cypher Enigma_Cypher

      Just because that's true does not give them the power to disregard the Constitution.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000876812467 Bruce Hass

    I like everything about this ad, except the theme music. Should be a show stopper. Happy days are here again, maybe. The Republicans could use the ad themselves.

  • http://www.facebook.com/dale.wetzel Dale Wetzel

    Tom Brusegaard should be in that ad. http://tinyurl.com/32cbfkb

  • alanstorm

    "privatize Social Security and Medicare, repeal the 17th Amendment, and abolish the departments of energy and education and the EPA."

    That these are features and not bugs is the biggest indication of the political divide today. Roughly half the population thinks that advocating more freedom for individuals is radical.

    I know what their big, unspoken objection is: that freedom includes the freedom to fail, and that can't be allowed.

    Boborygmi never even gets close to reality. Bobo, the Senate was supposed to be the states' representative, while the House is the peoples'. Only a liberal could misunderstand such a simple arrangement. Reinstate that arrangement and get the Feds out of areas where they are not required to be.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

      The question is: Why the need? If the mob "the unwashed masses" are to be feared then isn't the Tea Party Movement to be feared. Isn't the recall effort for Conrad misplaced. If the argument is too much gov't interference why put another layer of gov't between the people and the Federal gov't. If the arguement for the 17th is as bat wrote"To a state government elected by the voters of that state? Yep!" can't the same be said about the President and Federal elected officials? The people in office are for the most part in because they were voted in. The 17th just expanded the direct connect to the people. The 17th is a part of the Constitution ratified by the States. Start the petition for the repeal if you think the political winds are blowing the RIGHT way.

      • alanstorm

        I'll be happy to respond if you can come up with something to respond to. Stringing together unconnected and incoherent sentences isn't good enough.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

    If you are going to have direct election of Senators, instead of the process originally outlined in the Constitution, then there really isn't much point in having an upper chamber in the first place. The reason for having the Senate, as Alan explains is to represent the interests of the states, not the people.

    In all but two states, Nebraska and Hawaii, the federal bi-cameral model is followed. In those two states the legislature is unicameral, while in all the other states, the legislature in bi-cameral. And it is a pointless arrangement and a huge waste of taxpayers' resources since at the state level, the state senate districts are imaginary and artifical… just like the state house districts, or the current federal house districts. The bicameral model only makes sense in the original, constitutional structure where it is the states themselves that are represented. Don't forget, it was the states that formed the US, and thus the federal government. Preserving the individual states' identities, at the expense of the federal government was the whole point.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

    If you are going to question amendments don't you question the Founders? DIdn't they put in an amendment process? This Amendment process is the greatest check against excesses at the federal level and allows for change in societal structure. The process is the ultimate power for the states. If you feel the wind is blowing RIGHT then start the process. What I find laughable is that you and your ilk complain about gov't controll, and the power of the majority you do not accept the power of the majority when it goes against you. From what I have read above you believe that the state is the ulitimate power not the federal gov't nor the democratic masses.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

      Why yes, its right there in the Constitution. The People and the State are the source of the Federal Governments power. Any power not specifically given to the Federal Government or denied to the States are EXCLUSIVELY reserved for the People and the States. The Federal Government was designed to have "primacy" over State governments but only in well defined areas.

      Section 1 Article Eight

      The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

      To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

      To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

      To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

      To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

      To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

      To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

      To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

      To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

      To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

      To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

      To provide and maintain a Navy;

      To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

      To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

      To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

      To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Notice all of those are National or International in scope. The Founding Fathers wanted local government because it was more accountable.

      I do enjoy your straw man about "questioning the Founders". Who is questioning the Founders? We are questioning whether or not those amendments are a good idea and if they should be repealed.

      What I find laughable is that you and your ilk complain about gov't controll, and the power of the majority you do not accept the power of the majority when it goes against you.

      Right back at you. You guys rammed Health Care through even in the face of massive opposition.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

        "The Founding Fathers wanted local government because it was more accountable. " Can't get more local then the voter. The question is simple do you don't you trust the voter?

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

          If you trust the voter the 17th amendment stands. If you don't start, the repealing process with a new amendment but remember that the 17th was ratified by the States…… If you don't trust the voters , as the Founding Fathers didn't then you believe that some sort of Nanny State is needed. Some hierarchy in our case Representative Gov/t. is needed. . Some sort of recall happens every 2 years whether Representative, or President, or Senator.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

          The Founding Fathers wanted local government because it was more accountable.

          Can't get more local then the voter.

          Voters are local. The Federal Government is not. One size fits all laws for a country the size of the US are not the best way to do things. For example laws on water restrictions make sense in Arizona and California but don't really make sense for the upper Northwest that get a large amount of rain.

      • http://intensedebate.com/people/Enigma_Cypher Enigma_Cypher

        Exactly. The Constitution makes it very clear that the only powers the federal government has are those that are given to it by the states.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

    You guys rammed Health Care through even in the face of massive opposition.

    Let's not forget which side's idiot leader informed us all that we had to pass the bill in order to know what's in it. That single statement is reason enough to remove Pelosi and every other "leader" or incumbent, and start over again. Nobody who insults the intelligence of the American people with that sort of stupidity should hold any sort of public office… ever!

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/VladTaltos VladTaltos

    The reason the founding fathers wanted the state legislators to elect the Senators is not nearly as altruistic as you suppose. It was largely because of their position. It was a way that they could keep their power. They would be chosen.

    And this political entrenchment lasted for 100 years.

    Every conservative a-hole who supports term limits should love the 17th amendment.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ghickok234 Greg in Alabama

      You have evidence to prove that? Or are you to stupid to look it up?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

      Altruistic??? Surely you didn't meant to use "altruistic."

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/batobe Bat One

      The Founding Fathers didn't want a democracy, didn't trust a large, intrusive federal government, and wanted the states to be the premier government body. Their chosen means of selecting Senators, to represent the states, is no different in purpose or practice than their creation of the Electoral College to select the president.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/boborygmi boborygmi

    Have the reasons for why the 17th was corrected been fixed?

    • boborygmi

      must have been late. THe 17th came about for a reason. Has the reason been eliminated, changed, disappeared.

      • Greg in Alabama

        What reason was that?

        • boborygmi

          according to my research it was to circumvent the corruption and buying of votes in state legislatures. It would be tougher to by the votes of the masses then a few state legislators. In todays Forum under the Broder Opinion column "Senate Running on Empty" he mentions an article by George Packer,"The Empty Chamber". The problem with the Senate, which you mention was intended to slow down the law making and <be more deliberate and resist fads and trends> They did this by compromise <Its best leaders have been men who were capable,at least on occasion, of rising above partisanship or parochial interests and summoning the will to tackle overriding challenges in a way that almost shamed their colleagues out of their small mindedness."
          I don't see where electing a Senator through the States Chambers or by the democratic masses would change that. Lack of leadership on both sides and small mindedness on both sides are the culprit. When a Senator from either side moves toward compromise they are chastised and belittled.

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