Democrat Wants Protectionism In Climate Change Bill

This is going to be a big, big headache for proponents of cap and trade. Senator Max Baucus wants provisions in the climate change bill that put tariffs on goods imported from countries that don’t similarly punish carbon emissions. Why? Because by punishing emissions here in the United States we are inevitably going to drive up the price of US goods and services, and Baucus doesn’t want Americans saving any money by buying from foreign companies.

“We must push our trading partners to do their part to curb harmful emissions and we must devise a border measure, consistent with our international obligations, to prevent the carbon leakage that would occur if US manufacturing shifts to countries without effective climate change programs.”

The problem with bringing this up is that it tacitly admits that cap and trade is going to ramp up the cost of goods and services. And it also illustrates the “rock and a hard place” position it would put the economy in.
On one hand, if the cap and trade doesn’t contain the protectionism Senator Baucus wants companies (and all the jobs and prosperity they create) are just going to flee the country and sell us their goods from more business-and-production friendly environs. If the does does slap tariffs on goods imported from non-carbon-caped nations, then it exacerbates an already dire problem with the prices of goods and services going up. If American markets are denied products from places like China, access to low-cost goods is going to become scarce.
Meaning the purchasing power of your dollar is going to go down as prices go up.
Even Obama understands this is a bad thing. Protectionism may be good when you’re campaigning for union votes or among the economically illiterate (same thing, really), but in the real world protectionism doesn’t do anyone any good.

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  • http://Array sayanything-2

    Keep spinning that lie, its all you got.

  • sayanything-12

    How about this 2009 paper from GRL? I don’t think it supports that consensus you were talking about.

    It states that the ratio of the increase in atmospheric CO2 to anthropogenic CO2 emissions has remained constant since 1850. That’s pretty important because one of the principal claims of the AGW alarmist crowd is that the Earth is nearing its capacity to absorb CO2. And if that were true, you should see an increase in that ratio over time (as the Earth’s CO2 reservoirs fill up, more CO2 would end up in the atmosphere).

    The question of solar forcing is a big “nobody knows”. On the face of it, the evidence seems to be pointing towards a more steady state total solar illuminance (one that doesn’t vary much with solar cycles), rather than a less steady state one. That leaves the question open “what is the mechanism by which the sun would be modulating Earth climate?” in that case.

    You need more solar forcing than is currently claimed to explain past warming and cooling episodes (prior to the putative turning on of the human “global warming burning” in 1980). So there is some support that something related to the solar cycle must be modulating Earth climate.

    One possibility is solar magnetic fields (is polarity fiips roughly every 11 years of course), which influence the Earth’s van Allen belt.

    See this.

  • sayanything-48

    Everyone knows that preventing climate change, or at least the
    worst consequences of it, is not going to be easy.

    Who knows it, again? Everyone? What exactly are we trying to
    prevent? First it was global cooling, then it was global warming, now it’s
    climate change… Before we make some insanely rash actions, maybe we
    should define the problem.

    While the task required is large and difficult, there are some
    simple, quick, and easy fixes that can make a real difference, and perhaps
    even buy us more time.

    Buy us more time from what? the normal
    cycle that the Earth goes through when the Sun (yeah, that big ball of fire
    that warms the globe) goes through its normal cycle? Is that what we’re
    trying to stop? The normal cycle of the Sun?

    The solution is simple then… put out the Sun. Cycles stopped… No
    problem.

    But they are being ignored.

    Thank God there are some rational minds still out there, excluding youself,
    of course.

  • http://www.2plus2equals5.net winston_smith1
  • sayanything-48
  • sayanything-12

    LOL, why nature?

    GRL is more pertinent.

  • sayanything-48

    Now, *that’s* consensus!

    LOL! Now that’s rich… WIKI? Anyone can modify ANYTHING on Wiki…
    With Wikipedia, you too can be an expert on ANYTHING!

    The fact of the matter is as follows:

    1. The Earth has an irregular rotation around the Sun.
    http://www.cso.caltech.edu/outreach/log/NIGHT_DAY/elliptical.htm
    2. The Sun varies in Temperature (not by a great deal, true, but… see #3)
    http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/sun_output_030320.html
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1996ApJ…472..891S
    3. Humans are, as of yet, incapable of correctly modeling a simple cloud.
    We do not have enough datapoints to understand fully the effects of solar
    radiation, cosmic radiation, the Earth’s Magnetic Field, the Solar Magnetic
    Field, the Planetary ambient heat, the tidal movement, the Lunar drag, the
    oceanic forces or the wind currents… to properly model a simple could. We
    can’t do that, but we can tell that CO2 is the cause of all the planets
    woes?
    4. CO2, in the current percentages of atmospheric concentration, is not a
    threatening green house gas.
    5. The lushness index of the planet has increased 20% meaning that plants
    have absorbed the excess CO2 we’ve produced.
    6. We only have fairly specific heat data for the last 100 years, prior to
    that we have samples of cores from ice and rock that give us broad notions
    of temperatures, but not enough to specifically model a trend such as is
    being attempted today.
    7. Many of the current weather stations are sitting in human manipulated
    weather areas, such as next to A/C heat exchangers, or on Asphalt.
    http://wattsupwiththat.com/category/weather_stations/
    8. There MOST CERTAINLY is a lack of consensus.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLcvCp4DHJw&feature=PlayList&p=6A4488664A051D09&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2
    Start
    at 4:20

    http://www.stevefielding.com.au/forums/viewthread/125/P2145/#6536

  • sayanything-48

    Okay, so it’s all a government conspiracy, except for Inhofe?
    I’ve got nothing against republicans, but this guy is a complete loon
    (there are democrat loons too, of course.) Seriously, you can’t be holding
    up someone like that as an example.

    I was nearly convinced with your Wiki link, but you really captured me with
    calling Inhofe a loon… You’ve completely convinced me with all your
    non-references to non-fact and I am now COMPLETELY on board with the global
    warming issue. Man made global warming has to stop. The BEST way to do
    that is to kill ALL the humans… Lets start right now. You go first!

  • sayanything-48

    You know… this administration acts like they are playing Sid Meyer’s Civilization… to loose.

    You ever done that? Pick a game… do really well at it for a while, then intentionally do everything you can to fail as quickly as possible?

    They’re destroying our financial system. Alienating our allies… Crippling our production capacity… Decimating our health care industry… Killing our Auto Manufacturers… Violating agreements…

    I’m not a Christian, but did you ever wonder what steps the Anti Christ would take to enact the “One World Government” the Bible talks about in Revelations?

    I can’t imagine it would be too different than what’s going on today.

    I’m just sayin’…

  • sayanything-48

    I have to appologize… I did not check the link prior to writing the
    response. 2H9, do you have a more specific link to show that Mercury is
    cooling?

    A better example of decreasing solar irradience on mean surface temperature
    is Mars, since it still has an Atmosphere and we have a satellite in orbit.

  • sayanything-48

    YAY! We’re going to cripple the economy AND create a trade war!!! YAY!!!!

    I just cannot wait to see what China buys from us once we put new tariffs in place.

    SWEET Mother… How DUMB are these people? I am POSITIVE that my parents generation did not have to watch these people as closely as they need watching today…

  • sayanything-48

    WTF am I going to ready more random PDFs on the Internet? Who
    has that kind of time? If they are worth anything, they’ll be published and
    I’ll read about it in the news.

    What’s the difference between a PDF and a web page? You’re very strange…

    PDF’s are the typical scientific publication format for the web… But
    you’ll go and believe Wiki. Then, when presented with information, you
    won’t read it…

    So, you’d rather that the US economy be destroyed in the name of a scam…
    the #1 exporter of Food for the world will no longer be able to do so…
    but Hey… as long as we feel like we’re doing something for the planet…

    T.A.R.D.

  • brain trust

    I saw the headline to this and I got my hopes up that they meant to “protect” us from their bad environmental laws. Me bad!

  • sayanything-2

    Its link is always the same. If it wants people to go to its blog it should simply say so. Get a readerblog and proselytize to its heart’s content.

    And it amazes me that people keep screeching about “Republican protectionism” when it is, the vast majority of the time, Democrats pushing protectionism.

  • sayanything-12

    Sorry, do you have links without PDFs that go to the journals directly so I can review the authors and the journals?

    What’s wrong with the PDFs?

    They are the actual scientific articles, including abstracts etc.

  • sayanything-12

    If any major journal published an article disproving global warming

    Well they aren’t going to disprove “global warming” ’cause it’s a fact we were in a “Little Ice Age” in 1850, and that it’s much warmer now than then.

    If that’s the “consensus” you were referring to (and I agree there is absolute consensus on that), then that isn’t worth so much.

    GRL=Geophysical Research Letters.. one of the most important and prestigious journals in that area. Nature and Science are splashier journals to publish in, but that’s not generally where the science progresses.

    It’s not like we publish in e.g. GRL then if it makes good, we republish in Nature, lol.

  • sayanything-106

    Good point, they are going to hear us when they get voted out of office in the next election.

  • sayanything-2

    The “consensus” is that global warming is a lie, and changing it to “climate change” has proven to all the world that it is a lie.

    canadaspambot? Look up. See that big, flaming ball in the sky? That is what “changes” the climate. Not humans.

  • sayanything-2

    Oh, and 2 words. Smoot. Hawley. How well has THAT worked?

  • brenarlo

    Colin Peterson already got an exemption for corn growers. This is getting hilarious!! It won’t be long before there will be huge law firms dedicated solely to weaving companies through the carbon schemes.

  • sayanything-2

    And you are right, the Mars and Venus temp drops do relate more to Earth. That won’t alter the screeching of the religious fanatics such as canadaspam though.

  • sayanything-2

    Sorry, have to read in all the early writeups, they are kinda focused on the visual and multi-wave length imaging, now. Which I really like. Some impressive stuff. All the same, temp charts from this mission are showing lower gradients than their computer models and previous data indicated.

    Same is true for data from asteroid observations. Larger masses that have been tracked and profiled since the 1970s are giving substantially lower temp data in the last few years.

    I know. As the leftard screechers will screech, all of that is simply anecdotal. Hahahahahahah!!!

  • sayanything-12

    SuitePototae, I’ll say the same thing to you I said to Canadaguy. If you frame the statement correctly, you’ll get consensus.

    E.g., take “the Earth is warming and man is playing a role in that”.

    Almost no researcher would disagree with that statement.

    The devil is in the details here: How severe is the outcome if we e.g., don’t act?

    Not really a consensus there: Most research I’ve seen (including summaries of research like the IPCC) are pretty conservative in terms of what they actually state, and the AGW activists are left to tell us to basically ignore what the science actually says.

    And yes, there is a lot of alarmist crap that gets published in peer reviewed journals. There’s a reason we have the phrase “bandwagon effect” in our language.

  • sayanything-2

    And notice how fast candaspam ran away from the fact that its co-religionist wants to stifle international trade, and sharply curtail energy production on a global scale. Now, why would that be?

  • sayanything-2

    Nope. Just the data from MESSENGER. I know, NASA is a rather unreliable source, but it is what there is.

  • sayanything-2

    Yea, this aversion to actual information simply because you have to spend time reading it is rather curious. Perhaps I should give it a listing of links, and it can spend 6 or so months reading them. Naaaaw, that would never happen, too many big words, graphs, and whatnot. If it has a hard time reading a pdf it would be entirely incapable of so much as navigating(sorry, that means finding your way around) a NASA webpage.

  • sayanything-12

    canadaguy:

    “Since 2007, no scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion”.

    I asked you what the consensus is that we have all supposedly given over to. You didn’t answer.

    Can you state what that consensus is in your own words?

  • sayanything-2

    Seth, good comment, but it was wasted. canadaguy is a spambot, merely parroting crap in order to post that link, and nothing more.

  • sayanything-2

    “so I expect complete references” Something you will never get.

  • sayanything-2

    Oh, and just to be clear, since it is becoming quite clear that the issue is somehow in question, humans consume and nothing you can do will change that. And pretending it somehow is “destroying” the “environment” is religious hokum. Nothing more.

  • jimmypop

    I WONDER…. do these people think before they talk? maybe they dont know we can hear them?

  • sayanything-2

    Want a discussion point? Mercury is cooling, according to data from MESSENGER. http://messenger.jhuapl.edu/index.php Don’t believe what I say, I am an a$$hole. Believe what the scientific instruments are saying.

  • sayanything-48

    I’ll have to re-review my links. I don’t know where he got the Inhofe
    reference. I wouldn’t post as science data links from politicians
    unless the latter were trained as the former.

  • sayanything-48

    Mercury is cooling

    Now that’s just weird… When the other planets were warming up so was
    Earth… Now the other planets are cooling and so is the Earth…

    What a WHACKY coinincidence that is!!!

    How much CO2 is on Mercury???

  • sayanything-48

    Seriously, you can’t be holding up someone like that as an example.

    What a fool you are. Inhofe’s name is on the site and you presume that the article came from him, thus won’t read it? What an absolute JERK you are.

    That, by the way, was just one of the links I provided and was simply to show that there are dissenting opinions on ManMade global warming.

    Is the globe warming? Depends on what time period you compare it to. Go back 10 years, and the answer is No. The globe is cooling.

    Trends over time are a funny thing, and we don’t know enough or have enough data points to understand all of the interrelations between the various factors. For instance, as CO2 rises, plant life grows acting as a natural solar panel absorbing solar energy. As plaentary heat increases, water vapor increases which can increase cloud cover which returns solar energy to space, thus cooling the globe, thus returning the water vapor to liquid.

    The Earth loses thousands of tons of atmosphere per year to solar winds. Since we only recently came to learn of this, I’d imagine that there might be a good deal more that we do not know.

    But, again… Let’s press on with the total destruction of the Economy that lifts/lifted the world… No need to fret, however, I am sure that China and thier very friendly regiem will cover for us.

  • sayanything-48

    Seth, good comment, but it was wasted. canadaguy is a
    spambot,

    Ah… Thanks! and Thanks!

    ;-)

  • sayanything-2

    The “globe” ain’t warming. Oop, there it is.

  • sayanything-2

    What we have here, y’all, is yet another religious fanatic. And no amount of reality will change what it believes. Hold that lie tight, canadaspam, maybe it will keep you warm next summer. Though, I think the “consensus” indicates it won’t.

  • sayanything-12

    Sorry couldn’t help thumping Canada a few more times. Trying to knock in sense:

    WTF am I going to ready more random PDFs on the Internet?

    Well DUH.

    The PDFs I linked to were to peer reviewed literature already. No need to look further.

    Who has that kind of time?

    Those of us who like being informed, instead of just shooting our mouths off and showing how ignorant we can be.

  • sayanything-2

    Oh, and my beer tap system was all leaky and whatnot.

  • sayanything-2

    Yep, and human activity has nothing to do with it.

  • sayanything-12

    canadaguy:

    All the latest scientific results in all the journals supports the current consensus on climate change.

    Which consensus are you referring to? Seriously.

    Could you state what you think the “scientific consensus is” that “all the latest scientific results in all the journals” support? I’m a scientist, so I expect complete references. ;-)

  • sayanything-2

    wiki? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!

  • sayanything-2

    I’ll take the hit! It was me and my Winabago, we’re guilty!

  • sayanything-48

    Oh, and my beer tap system was all leaky and
    whatnot.

    Now THAT’S funny!

  • sayanything-48

    Nope. Just the data from MESSENGER

    I just didn’t see the data reference. That’s all…

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Sure, the consensus is that global warming is real and happening now, and that humans are the primary cause.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Yes, I am a turing-complete spambot. :)

  • sayanything-81

    Are you contesting my claims about the past states of the earth?

    My teaching is top notch. Spit all the venom you want. I enjoy what I do.

    Moreover, I have been accepted to a fancy project in Europe next summer.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Show me an article on the cover of Science or Nature, and I’ll submit. I follow the evidence, which ever way it goes.

  • sayanything-4808

    It’s a chosen belief, backed only by specious pseudo-logic. When put up against known facts of planetary mechanics, geochemistry, ice cores and all the rest, it is entirely run into the ground. When you add in the number of selective data use such as from malfunctioning sea level buoys, heat sensors placed in artificially hot places, and calculations whose methodology is not properly explained in mathematical rigor and the rationale framed mebulously in prejudicial phrasing that would make a marketeer smile… the result is something that is as believable as the so-called studies telling the world that we could not loft satellites to orbit and never ever reach the moon.

    Figures they say do not lie, but liars have long used figures, which without proper relation with other quantities and relations specified with solid mathematical logic that holds to complete and total scrutiny, allow those with selfish motivations to beguile others.

    There is no such consensus and claims of it are hogwash by people who want to stifle debate and idiots who are blissfully unaware of how science and math work, how the human mind works, and human history to say nothing of lying through their teeth in putting up a display of such naive trusting that were they real, they could scarcely have made it past ten without being institutionalized.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    syantiss, I already commented about the wiki, it’s not meant to prove anything, it just shows that scientific organizations are in agreement. I won’t comment about the “what’s up with that” site, they have been debunked many times.

    Look, if what you’re saying is right, why is none of this being published in major journals? Is it a conspiracy? If you think so, we can agree to disagree and be done with it. If not, how do you explain it? Perhaps because the evidence doesn’t stand up when peer reviewed? Anyone can publish anything on the Internet (including me) but that doesn’t prove anything. The scientific method exists for a reason, and I think it’s done pretty well over the years (electricity, airplanes, landing on the moon, computers, etc.)

    The point of my blog is to discuss how to *deal* with the problem that exists, and as far as I tell tell, there’s as much evidence for global warming as evolution or the Earth being round. I mean no sarcasm when I say, prove me wrong. If I see articles popping up in the major journals that completely debunk the science of the past 20 years, then I’ll pack it in. I just don’t think this is very likely.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    I think you don’t think its very likely because you don’t want to be convinced.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Everyone knows that preventing climate change, or at least the worst consequences of it, is not going to be easy. While the task required is large and difficult, there are some simple, quick, and easy fixes that can make a real difference, and perhaps even buy us more time. But they are being ignored.

    http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/2009/11/low-hanging-fruit.html

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Of course I would accept it if the world’s scientists did. Remember, outside of the US, global warming has nothing to do with left or right politics.

    Anyway, I am giving up at this point. If there’s a major article published that disproves global warming, please post a comment on my blog, or email me (there’s a link in my profile on blogger) and I’ll post a public retraction and apology.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Whatever. If any major journal published an article disproving global warming, and it stood up to peer review, I guarantee it would end up on the cover of Science, Nature and a whole lot of other journals too. And whoever published it would likely win a Nobel Prize.

    (Note, Nobel’s for science are usually awarded fairly, don’t get me started on the Obama BS award!)

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Btw, in case you haven’t guessed already, I’m not American and don’t care who you guys elect. I’m certainly no Obama or Gore fan. Actually, I was kind of hoping you guys would elect Ron Paul, although I don’t think he’s got a plan for global warming, but on other issues I like him.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Ha. I dooubt it. The Nobel prize, at least the peace prize, is given to liberals for being liberals.

    And if a study did emerge debunking global warming people like you wouldn’t accept it. You’d attack it as heresy.

    Evidence abounds to prove that human activity is not having anywhere near the impact on the climate people like you claim. But without the Armageddon stories the politicians don’t have a valid excuse to tax, spend and regulate more.

  • sayanything-1317

    Sorry gotta kick him a few more times myself.

    Syn posts from CalTech and Harvard, Space.com and scientists. Carrick piles on with GRL. Others post other scholorly articles.

    CanadaGuy comes back with Wikipedia and “SelfDestructiveBastards.com”.

    Which side sounds more logical….hmmm….

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Okay, so it’s all a government conspiracy, except for Inhofe? I’ve got nothing against republicans, but this guy is a complete loon (there are democrat loons too, of course.) Seriously, you can’t be holding up someone like that as an example.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Hi syantiss. All the latest scientific results in all the journals supports the current consensus on climate change. I have not heard the theory before that the changes are caused by the sun. I know there’s a sunspot cycle, but that’s just every 13 years or so, I assume you mean it’s been increasing in output for hundreds of years or longer?

    I try to stay current on astronomy news, and I haven’t heard anything about this. Can you please provide a reference to any recent scientific findings that have been peer-reviewed and support this position? If this is real, you might also want to send the info to the folks at astronomycast.com, they might want to use it for a topic in one of their podcasts.

    Btw, the whole cooling thing is partly true. If it weren’t for global warming, the Earth would indeed be on a gradual cooling (we’re talking a degree every few thousands of years) towards another eventual ice age. But since the carbon emissions are causing things to warm so much faster, the cooling is so tiny by comparison you can’t even notice it.

    Thanks.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    These must be technical terms you use while instructing your students, right professor?

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    WTF am I going to ready more random PDFs on the Internet? Who has that kind of time? If they are worth anything, they’ll be published and I’ll read about it in the news.

  • sayanything-1317

    Most articles of any worth that include any kind of meaningful analysis are usually in PDF.

    You can judge the worth of the article by who writes it and where it is, not by the format. An html site from “Allconservativesarefascistsandneedtobeexecuted.com” is not as likely to be as trustworthy as a PDF from let’s say…NASA?

    Thank you for letting us know how useless PDF is though… /sarcasm.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Sorry, do you have links without PDFs that go to the journals directly so I can review the authors and the journals?

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Yes. Sit there on the couch and wait for people to spoon feed you the information.

    That’s the best way.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    carrick, see here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

    “Since 2007, no scientific body of national or international standing has maintained a dissenting opinion”.

    Now, *that’s* consensus! But, please, provide a reference to any article in a major journal such as Science or Nature in recent years that disputes global warming.

    And forget the difference between the terms, it’s the same thing. I tend to agree “climate change” is probably a bit PC, but it is true that there’s more changes than just warming. I usually just stick with global warming, cause I’m old fashioned. :)

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    Really? Global warming has nothing to do with politics outside the us?

    Please, I’m not an idiot.

  • http://www.selfdestructivebastards.com/ canadaguy

    Of course, a wiki isn’t proof, it just shows what the scientific organizations are thinking. As I said, if there’s a recent publication in Science or Nature or something of that stature that casts doubt, I would like to know.

  • sayanything-81

    global warms. yawn. its been frozen and its been a molten ball of radioactive sh*t.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com robport

    What’s wrong with them is that they’re sort of inconvenient for his argument so he needs to move his goal posts a bit.

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