Democrat Jim Moran: Jewish Conspiracy Controls The Media

That’s not how he put it, of course, but he may as well have.

In an interview with Tikkun, a California-based Jewish magazine, Moran said the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is “the most powerful lobby and has pushed this war from the beginning. I don’t think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all, but because they are so well organized, and their members are extraordinarily powerful — most of them are quite wealthy — they have been able to exert power.”
[...]
AIPAC “members are willing to be very generous with their personal wealth. But it’s a two-edged sword. If you cross AIPAC, AIPAC is unforgiving and will destroy you politically. Their means of communications, their ties to certain newspapers and magazines, and to individuals in the media are substantial and intimidating.”

Of course, the NAACP has substantial ties to certain media outlets and powerful politicians. So do a lot of other lobbyists. Here in the heartland, the agriculture lobbyists all but send out politicians paychecks.
So why does Moran single out the Jews? It’d be interesting to hear him answer that.

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  • http://Array MikeAdamson

    r108…your inability to separate attacks on arguments from attacks on the person making the argument is remarkable. Your perseverance would normally be commendable but sticking to the worst kind of transparently dishonest argument has earned my pity instead.

    It’s tough to refute an argument composed almost exclusively of logical fallacy and unsourced innuendo thus I can only repeat why Moran’s statements as quoted are not antisemitic in my opinion. AIPAC policy preference is not the same as Jewish community policy preference. It is quite easy to criticise AIPAC without criticising Jews in general and the proposition that Moran’s words constitute antisemitism is wrong.

  • robert108

    What is Robert108′s answer?

    My answer is that your question has nothing to do with the Moran situation. I don’t think valid criticism constitutes either racism or antisemitism; Moran’s statements were antisemitism concealed as criticism of the war. In other words, he wasn’t being honest; he was attempting to drive a wedge between AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish community. Get it now?

  • robert108

    Does that make me a racist?

    You know as well as I do, Dave, that according to lefties, any criticism of a black person is racism. That isn’t my point, of course, but I know you enjoy making yourself look silly with your pathetic attempts at analogy.

  • robert108

    Of course the real important question is whether I should buy QID on Nasdaq before closing or wait til tomorrow. Any thoughts on that?

    Since the market just went up over 300 points today, you might just be a bit behind the curve.
    BTW, you don’t have my permission to use my quote for your nefarious purposes, unless you also include my explanation.

  • robert108

    BTW, Mike, no part of my criticisms of Hussein Obama have anything to do with race or religion. I just think he’s unfit for any public office. It’s an individual criticism, not a general one. Moran’s criticism of AIPAC was, in part, involved with their being Jewish. Without saying it directly, he was calling them the favorite leftie name for Jews who have left the Dem plantation: neocons.

  • robert108

    My problem earlier was that I couldn’t read Moran’s mind.

    I’ll make it easy for you; no mind reading required.

    “the most powerful lobby and has pushed this war(not “supported American interests”, but “pushed” the war. You know how Jews can be pushy.) from the beginning. I don’t think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all,(they’re the “bad Jews”, unlike you “good Jews”) but because they are so well organized, and their members are extraordinarily powerful — most of them are quite wealthy — they have been able to exert power.”(Yes, it’s the pushy, rich and powerful Jews who are bad)

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…I don’t think he’s against some Jews so much as he’s against some Jews’ policy positions.

    WB…r108 is just being a scamp and believes no such thing.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…since QID is an inverse ETF based on the Nasdaq 100, that’s sort of the idea. I held off at any rate.

  • MikeAdamson

    So why does Moran single out the Jews? It’d be interesting to hear him answer that.

    According to the quote you provide Moran singles out AIPAC, not the Jews.

  • MikeAdamson

    You are using a term inaccurately…

    Nope. You’re a right winger until you are in a position to change common terminology to suit your liking.

  • http://proof-proofpositive.blogspot.com/ proof_positive

    Jimmy Carter has just jumped on the anti-AIPAC, anti-Israel bandwagon.

    Jimmy Carter would never stick a knife in Israel’s back!
    He will merely take those already stuck there and twist them!

  • robert108

    MikeA: Nothing mysterious here; I was replying to what you wrote here:

    According to the quote you provide Moran singles out AIPAC, not the Jews.

    So, you are saying that he is only against some Jews?(AIPAC)
    Sorry that one got by you.

  • docdave

    I’m not Dave but I get that your argument, or what there is to it, is simply intellectually dishonest and pure nonsense

    Hey, Mike, I thought you were the resident expert on intellectually dishonesty and pure nonsense. The way you cherry pick and obfuscate puts you well in the lead.

  • robert108

    …it’s your ludicrous argument…

    You can’t simply disagree; according to you, my argument is “ludicrous”-a personal attack.

    I have denigrated your argument because it lacks any logical consistency.

    At least you admit it. Actually, you were unable to refute it.

    …you are so virulently opposed to positions that differ from your own…

    I can’t just disagree, I have to be “virulently opposed”. More personal attack.

    All this personal attack from one comment.

  • robert108

    r108…I get it. It’s like how your disapproval of Senator Obama demonstrates you’re only against some blacks.

    Not even close. Another bad analogy from you, Mike; you must be getting desperate to defend your mistakes by a pathetic attempt to play the race card. I called you on your statement, and you can’t deal with it.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108

    It’s the same old wheeze about a “Jewish cabal” running things from behind the scenes.

    Strange but I don’t see anything about cabals anywhere in that article. Are you sure you read it properly?

    I initially observed

    According to the quote you provide Moran singles out AIPAC, not the Jews.

    Given that my comment accurately portrays what Moran said, I think you’ll have to try another avenue. Perhaps you could claim that you read Moran’s mind and looked into my heart and confirmed the presence of antisemitism.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…I get it. It’s like how your disapproval of Senator Obama demonstrates you’re only against some blacks.

  • robert108

    Furthermore, Moran’s comments about AIPAC are pretty much NAZI boilerplate about how rich Jews control everything from behind the scenes. Pretty standard antisemitic stereotype.

  • robert108

    Are you insane? Do you have any idea what you’re saying and how it makes you look?

    More ad hominem instead of facts/logic. No matter how much you try to make this about me, I only care about the truth. I don’t care how I “look” to you, only that what I say is true, and you have not presented anything that demonstrates what I said was untrue. Rather, you have avoided the facts of the matter, and have continued to try to win by denigration. That just doesn’t work with me.
    I realize you are antiwar, and also anti-”neocon”, so your looking the other way when a Dem makes antisemitic remarks is totally understandable. I’m not on your plantation, so I speak my mind. Sorry it makes you so uncomfortable.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…what mistake was that? I assume you mean that I thought you were joking with your ludicrous question but please correct me if I’m wrong.

  • MikeAdamson

    Moran’s comments about AIPAC are pretty much NAZI boilerplate about how rich Jews control everything from behind the scenes.

    I’d agree with you if Moran was talking about all Jews or even all wealthy Jews but since you can read you know he’s not.

  • Neiman

    DAMN JEWS!

    Anecdotally speaking only, most Jews that I know and that is quite a few, are liberal Democrats. In fact, it has always irritated me that so many American Jews seem to lean towards liberalism as a people and not conservatism. I won’t bother to speculate as to why this seems to be so, I only make that observation from my personal experiences.

    It is also true that in most countries wherein Jews have settled in any numbers since the diaspora, because of their emphasis on education of their people, their close knit community ties, their involvement in business and their financial successes therein, they have been often perceived by the naturalized citizens of those nations as being in control of the governments in the countries they inhabit and more often than not, they have suffered pogroms, persecution and extermination as a result of their success. I might add that most countries initially welcomed and were grateful for the Jews stabilizing their economies and only later on became jealous of their success in the process.

    There is no doubt the Jews have powerful lobbying groups in this country to advance their causes and having succeeded economically here as everywhere else they have settled, and there appears to be a great number of them in positions of power in almost every industry and in government. I think anyone applying the same principles would enjoy the same rewards.

    However, in an open society like America, for any Jewish cabal to exist undetected and unexposed, it would require a number and level of conspiracies to have existed for a long period of time and so successful as to defy the imagination; and I have seen no objective evidence of such sinister plots. Until then, at best some racists can complain that as a people they seem to have excelled in pursuing and attaining the American dream more than some other ethnic groups.

    Damn Jews, they get good educations, work hard, take personal responsibility for their lives, support each other and succeed, how dare they? Other racial groups have to varying degrees applied this education and hard work principle in their close knit communities and have likewise made us soft, fat and lazy Americans jealous of their success in our country. Maybe there is a lesson here for us white bread Americans to learn? Naw! Probably not, as it is not a Jewish problem at all – it is all the fault of those damned Eskimos!

  • robert108

    MikeA: Good Luck on your trading.

  • robert108

    WB…r108 is just being a scamp and believes no such thing.

    No, it’s Moran whose beliefs we are questioning. I don’t think pointing out the obvious is being a “scamp”, but then I don’t practice dismissive personal attack, either.

    I don’t think he’s against some Jews so much as he’s against some Jews’ policy positions.

    Yes, like “I support the troops, but I don’t support their mission.” Pretty transparent.

  • robert108

    Wrong, Mike. It’s the same old wheeze about a “Jewish cabal” running things from behind the scenes. Why do you support such a venemous concept? Why are you trying to excuse Moran saying such a thing?

  • robert108

    MikeA: So, in your view, he’s only against some Jews?

  • robert108

    r108…what mistake was that? I assume you mean that I thought you were joking with your ludicrous question but please correct me if I’m wrong.

    The question followed perfectly from what you said(which was the ludicrous part, IMO) and what Moran said.

  • robert108

    Some here seem to be taking criticism of AIPAC as veiled antisemitism.

    It’s not “veiled”.

  • robert108

    Moran’s statements about AIPAC revealed his antisemitism; I have said so from the very beginning.
    I called you on your trying to split hairs by claiming that his criticism of some Jews(AIPAC) was somehow not antisemitic. I don’t agree with you there, and made it quite clear. It seems silly to me to maintain that accusing some Jews of doing things that they have been persecuted for throughout the ages is not antisemitic if you don’t include all Jews in that accusation. What percentage is necessary to qualify it as antisemitic? Fifty percent? Ninety-five percent? If one accused all Jews but one of that crap, is that somehow not antisemitic by you thinking, since “all Jews” are not included?

  • Dave

    Moran’s statements were antisemitism concealed as criticism of the war. In other words, he wasn’t being honest; he was attempting to drive a wedge between AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish community. Get it now?

    Oh, now I get it. My problem earlier was that I couldn’t read Moran’s mind.

  • MikeAdamson

    I’m saying straight out that it’s not appropriate for a publicly elected official to attack a particular ethnic group.

    I agree with you. How do you feel about elected officials criticising a particular interest group?

    If he had said this about a bunch of rich and powerful blacks, or gays, would you react the same way?

    If the bunch of blacks or gays constituted an interest group which advocated policies with which the elected official didn’t agree then I would react the same way. I take it you don’t brook criticism of the NCAAP by elected officials or am I wrong?

  • moran

    Another piece of anecdotal evidence supporting this, My sister bought me pint glasses with the Moran family crest on them for a gift one year, and the crest consists of a shield with three six-pointed stars on it.

  • MikeAdamson

    Joel…leave aside my “ilk” for a moment and look at what Moran said. He criticised AIPAC. When you criticise Hispanic immigration groups are you against Mexicans? When you criticise Democrats are you against Americans? When you criticise abortionists are you against doctors? Some here seem to be taking criticism of AIPAC as veiled antisemitism. Is that your position as well?

    Your ilk “infers” religious intolerance of Islam when critics factually represent muslim aims and label it “Islamapohbia.”

    I don’t believe that all Muslims should be judged by the words and actions of a violent sect. After all, if Islam really is the enemy then why does America support the Iraqi government? Isn’t it composed of Muslims?

    But maybe it was just another [botched joke eh?]

    I thought r108 was joking but I now see he’s not. Why don’t you read what Moran said and see how Rob’s post is misleading then if I try to pull the same thing, you can call me on it? That’s better than talking about my “ilk” and ascribing statements to me that I’ve never made.

  • robert108

    Birds of a feather…But don’t dare question their Semitism!

  • robert108

    I’m not Dave but I get that your argument, or what there is to it, is simply intellectually dishonest and pure nonsense.

    You continue to try to make me the issue rather than the facts.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    More [words can mean anything] hair-splitting nonsense by Mike!

    The inference is there Mike.

    I don’t “think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking …[but of course, I could be wrong]

    Your ilk “infers” religious intolerance of Islam when critics factually represent muslim aims and label it “Islamapohbia.”

    Your Ilk “infers” racism and bigotry from truthful statements about minorities and labels them “racially charged.” [open borders etc.]

    You play with words TOO much Mike. Look up the meaning of “infer” and “allude.”

    But maybe it was just another [botched joke eh?]

  • docdave

    Why don’t you read what Moran said

    As usual, Mike, you are a muslim apologist. I read the WaPo article (did you?) and here is what it said with regard with Morans anti-Jew, pro-muslim history.

    Although hailed for forging ties with the region’s Muslim community, Moran has gotten into trouble with the local Jewish community before. In 2001, he angered groups by saying in an appearance before the American Muslim Council that then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was coming to Washington “probably seeking a warrant from President Bush to kill at will with weapons we have paid for.”

    The next year, Moran returned $2,000 in political contributions from a Muslim activist with ties to the anti-Israeli groups Hamas and Hezbollah. [gee, I wonder what he said or did to deserve the terrorist support]

    And in 2003, at an antiwar forum in Reston, Moran said: “If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq, we would not be doing this. The leaders of the Jewish community are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is going, and I think they should.”

    You can spin this anyway you want (and I’m sure you will) but Moran is clearly a muslim supporter and a jewish detractor and I expect everything he says will echo his biases.

  • MikeAdamson

    This thread is about Moran making antisemitic statements.

    You talk in specifics then switch to the general case when it suits your purposes…please make up your mind. If it’s about Moran’s “antisemitic” comments then please point out said comments. The comments I read in Rob’s post were specifically aimed at AIPEC. Joel says that criticism of AIPEC is necessarily antisemetic. You could clarify your point if you’d indicate whether that is your position as well. If so, then I can at least understand your point even if I think it’s wrong. If that’s not your position, then you’re just trolling and we can get on with our lives.

  • robert108

    r108…why is criticism of AIPEC antisemetic? Is criticism of the Israeli Labour party also antisemitic?

    You keep using the same old tactic, Mike; generalizing a specific statement. This thread is about Moran making antisemitic statements.

  • Neiman

    …us soft, fat and lazy Americans…

    Speak for yourself.

    Ah, more intelligent debate from my arch enemy! If you cannot understand that most of America has gotten literally and figuratively fat and lazy off our many great successes since our founding, you lack any understanding at all.

  • robert108

    Anyone disagreeing with you about anything are objects of your extreme, unreasoning hatred! Your reference to Islamic terrorists being your enemies
    is silly a smokescrean for your rather generic, overarching hatred of almost everyone in the world.

    There you go again, projecting your emotional state on others. It is you, Neiman, who unrelentingly spews hatred on this blog. I’m sorry you don’t have the emotional maturity to deal with disagreement, but that certainly isn’t my problem.
    It is impossible for me to feel anything for you but pity.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/ likwidshoe

    AIPAC is powerful and they’re not above criticism.

    I’m as big as an Israel supporter that you’re going to find at this blog. I also praise the Jewish people for being such a small percentage of the human population (less than 1/5 of 1%), yet responsible for damn near half of humanity’s science discoveries. They’re an industrious smart people and humanity would be much better off if the rest of us took more cues from them.

    That said, Moran was right in stating that AIPAC doesn’t “represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking”. That’s because the reality is that most American Jews politically have their heads up their asses. They’re liberals!

    Before any logically impaired people accuse anybody of “NAZI boilerplate” comments for noticing these simple observations, shove it! It’s an argument that holds no water. AIPAC, the Jewish religion, and Israel are not supreme entities above criticism. Some of you need to stop acting as if they were. We’re talking about people here. Give the Jews the respect and reverence that they have earned, but at the same time remember that they’re only people who can be criticized and critiqued just like the rest of us.

  • Moran

    My name is also Moran. Moran is an Irish name that original came from Spain. I always learned that the original Morans were sailors from the Spanish Armada that sank off the coast of Ireland. In Spanish the name Moran comes from Morano. Morano was the name given to jews who chose to convert during the Inquisition, it means “pig.” Even though they converted, they were still looked down upon.

  • robert108

    I take it you don’t brook criticism of the NCAAP
    by elected officials or am I wrong?

    Obviously not. Can’t you do simple logic? You see, what you are denying is that Moran’s “criticism” was ethnically-based. His descriptions match the age-old prejudice known as antisemitism. He included their Jewishness, and that’s where he crossed the line. I have said this so many times, and you have not dealt with it, except to try to dismiss me on personal grounds. You also fail to deal with the part about the Dems throwing Jews and Israel “under the bus”.
    I have also mentioned that his “criticism” of these rich and powerful Jews also fits right into the “neocon” stereotype advanced by those who hate the Jews who have left the Dem “plantation”.

  • robert108

    I think if groups such as AIPAC want to influence public policy then government members should feel free to offer their opinions.

    Interesting ideology; sorry I missed it at first. So, if a bunch of rich, powerful Jews are doing something the Dems don’t like, they are somehow entitled to use their political power to go against a group of citizens expressing their views? Interesting. You have no problem with that? Sounds like you think it’s OK to crush dissent for political purposes.

  • MikeAdamson

    You have yet to make a reasoned argument for your position…

    My position is quite reasoned and very clear…Moran criticised AIPAC and Rob, Joel and you have taken this criticism as antisemitic because AIPAC’s membership is Jewish. I think you are wrong because AIPAC doesn’t speak for all Jews and, in fact, advances positions that are opposed by many Jews. For your line of reasoning to hold validity you would be forced to admit that Jews criticising AIPAC are also antisemitic…a development that I wouldn’t necessarily put past you but one that you haven’t stooped to yet.

    Please explain why it is OK for an elected official to make the statement he made.

    Because AIPAC is a lobby group advocating a hawkish view of Middle Eastern relations in defense of Israel. I think if groups such as AIPAC want to influence public policy then government members should feel free to offer their opinions.

  • robert108

    For your line of reasoning to hold validity you would be forced to admit that Jews criticising AIPAC are also antisemitic…

    Not unless they are elected public officials; you missed that part of my argument. BTW, is your example merely hypothetical, or do you have any examples?

  • robert108

    I didn’t miss it…I’m don’t know why it’s relevant. Are you saying that elected officials shouldn’t comment on public issues? Are you also
    suggesting that elected officials shouldn’t discuss activities of interest groups like AIPAC?

    As usual, I’m not “suggesting” anything; I’m saying straight out that it’s not appropriate for a publicly elected official to attack a particular ethnic group. It might be appropriate for a private citizen to do that, but Moran is representing his Party, not just his personal feelings. If he had said this about a bunch of rich and powerful blacks, or gays, would you react the same way? Maybe the Dems are ready to throw the Jews and Israel under the bus, to gain favor with the Muslim lobby.

  • robert108

    You’re a right winger…

    Only in your mind…who’s the authoritarian here?

    Before I waste any more of my time with your minutiae, let me ‘splain it to you. I already know that Dems/lefties are racist, homophobic and bigoted in every way. I don’t care so much about Moran’s and Carter’s antisemitism, but I do care that the Dems want to extend their pandering to the Islamofascists by trying to throw Israel under the bus, and all for their own selfish political purposes. Any questions?

  • robert108

    It’s reinforcement, or a surge, if you like.

  • robert108

    AIPAC policy preference is not the same as Jewish community policy preference. Exactly. Moran was trying to drive a wedge between AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish community. That was one of my points. It was the part about “good Jews” and “bad Jews”, remember? It is quite easy to criticise AIPAC without criticising Jews in general It certainly is, in general, but Moran was doing something else. and the proposition that Moran’s words constitute antisemitism is wrong. I think what he was doing was very obvious, but you disagree. Notice I used no denigrating or dismissive language in disagreeing with you.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108

    I guess I just have to keep repeating this until you get it: His criticism of them was partly based on their support for the war, and partly because they were rich and powerful Jews.

    What makes you think that his criticism is based on their Jewishness rather than on their ability and willingness to advance their political agenda?

    You see, according to the Dems, there are “good Jews”(those that support the Dem ideology), and there are “bad Jews”(like AIPAC) who support the war, among other things.

    Do you honestly believe that or is this just part of your anti-Dem schtick?

    When the Dem Party was the party of slavery, they divided blacks into “good n*ggers” and “bad n*ggers”; they are still in that state of mind.

    Are you insane? Do you have any idea what you’re saying and how it makes you look?

  • robert108

    Whenever you feel like addressing my objection to Rob’s post with something beyond reactionary platitudes, please let me know.

    I have already done so many times.

    If replying to your personal attacks with comments about your “style of argument” is considered by you to be a personal attack, so be it.

  • MikeAdamson

    the court, I don’t know, but it isn’t relevant to this thread.

    Oh, I see.

    Keep changing the subject, though.

    and Jimmy Carter isn’t changing the subject. You are a hoot!
    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

  • MikeAdamson

    It was the part about “good Jews” and “bad Jews”, remember?

    I remember…that is an example of the unsourced innuendo I was referring to.

    It certainly is, in general, but Moran was doing something else.

    Your evidence for this other than the standard Dems bad, lefties bad, etc. etc.

    I think what he was doing was very obvious, but you disagree.

    True.

    Notice I used no denigrating or dismissive language in disagreeing with you.

    I find your entire line of reasoning an insult to my intelligence and an affront to the dignity of blog commentators everywhere. You don’t need to employ denigrating or dismissive language because your “argument” does it for you.

  • robert108

    It’s common on the Right too…which leads me to believe that it is a human trait rather than an ideological one.

    Actually, it’s common among those whose beliefs are emotionally based, which is much more characteristic of lefties.

  • robert108

    Right on, Bat! Of course, the only example Rob and I used was what Moran actually said. Shame on us! /sarcasm

    When Moran said: “I don’t think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all…”
    He was saying that AIPAC’s support of the war(“pushing the war” as he said it) was Jewish thinking, but not “mainstream Jewish thinking”, so he was directly talking about their Jewishness. He definitely indicated not only that AIPAC were the “bad Jews”, but arrogated to himself the position of deciding what comprises “mainstream Jewish thinking”. But don’t question his Semitism!

  • robert108

    Newsflash: Former President and national disgrace Jimmy Carter has just jumped on the anti-AIPAC, anti-Israel bandwagon.

    http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/09/18/carter-stoops-anti-israel-rant-liberal-radio-program

  • MikeAdamson

    I do like. Perhaps you’ll like this collection of court documents relating to the AIPAC espionage prosecution, given your distaste for the leaking of government documents and all. I shouldn’t take the prosecution of AIPAC staffers for espionage as antisemitism though, should I?

    Perhaps the Justice Department is trying to drive a wedge between AIPAC and the Jewish community.

  • Bat One

    Et tu B1? I don’t think the rules of this debate permit the use of examples to make one’s point.

    Mike,

    By now you ought to understand that I don’t subscribe to ANYONE else’s rules…ever!

    Still, sarcasm (yours and mine) aside, you will have to agree that Democrats are extraordinarily well versed in the art of casting aspersions on those who disagree with them… witness my example above in which anyone who questioned the NAACP’s definition of public school “segregation” and the NAACP’s use of forced busing as a pointless and unworkable “solution” were shamelessly labeled racists, bigots, ad nauseum.

    The fact is, Democrats are exquisitely blatant liars when it comes to the intentions and motivations of conservatives. Another example? When congressional Republicans tried to reduce the rate of year-to-year increase in federal social spending during the mid 1990′s, Democrats howled that the GOP was trying to starve children and kill off seniors by withholding their Social Security payments and their medicines under MediCare. Perhaps you weren’t paying attention just then.

    Casting aspersions on an opponent’s motives in hopes of subverting the power of that opponent’s argument is an all too common tactic among those on the Left. So its hard to understand how some two edged criticism, such as that raised by Jim Moran’s inane comments, isn’t completely justified.

    After all, as that old expression says, those who live by the thwart…

  • MikeAdamson

    Casting aspersions on an opponent’s motives in hopes of subverting the power of that opponent’s argument is an all too common tactic among those on the Left.

    It’s common on the Right too…which leads me to believe that it is a human trait rather than an ideological one.

    Now if we could just do something about those puns….

  • robert108

    Once again, you ignore what he said for your own fantasy. I quoted him. If his screed was just about opposition to the war, why mention the “J-word” at all?
    Generally, you seem intelligent, but not in this case.

  • robert108

    You believe that Moran’s criticism of AIPAC is criticism of Jews generally and you think that’s antisemitism.

    I believe no such thing. Moran specifically referred to their being Jews in his statement, which made it an ethnic reference. If he had just disagreed with their support for the war, that would be normal for a leftie, but he mentioned their being Jewish, and that’s where he crossed the line. His using stereotypical antisemitic imagery just compounds his mistake.
    As I asked you originally, is it OK to criticize some Jews, but deny that you are criticizing Jews?

  • robert108

    Because AIPAC is a Jewish lobby group. Duh. Also, Tikkun is a California-based Jewish magazine but I wouldn’t expect you to worry too much about the details.

    Thanks for making my point. He criticized one Jewish group to another Jewish group, for his own partisan purposes, but don’t question his Semitism!

    I have already addressed this, when I said he was attempting to drive a wedge between Jews. Short term memory problems?

  • MikeAdamson

    If his screed was just about opposition to the war, why mention the “J-word” at all?

    Because AIPAC is a Jewish lobby group. Duh. Also, Tikkun is a California-based Jewish magazine but I wouldn’t expect you to worry too much about the details.

  • robert108

    Don’t question their Semitism!

  • MikeAdamson

    Bat One

    The problem with your argument is that you expect liberals to be rational and logically consistent.

    Et tu B1? I don’t think the rules of this debate permit the use of examples to make one’s point. I know you are joking with the “rational and logically consistent” remark…perhaps a little humour is what’s needed although if you do see logic in r108′s argument, I’d love to hear your take.

    r108

    Your style of “debate” is very weak, and I can see why you might be insulted by my “style” of argument, which is very strong and true.

    How ironic, a personal attack…the sure sign that you know how weak your argument is. Whenever you feel like addressing my objection to Rob’s post with something beyond reactionary platitudes, please let me know.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…when you’re elected President of your Constitutional Republic then you can determine what political terminology we can and can not use.

  • robert108

    r108…when you’re elected President of your Constitutional Republic then you can determine what political terminology we can and can not use.

    Oh, please! You are using a term inaccurately, and I called you on it. Now you need exaggeration? Personal attack not enough for you?

  • robert108

    Sadly I have no witty retort for that gem but I will use that as my
    signature for awhile.

    The Dems/lefties, in their lust for political power, liberally use the race card, the homophobia card, the angry feminist card and now the “good Jew, bad Jew” card to assemble their political support. In other words, racism, sexism and bigotry are simply political tactics to use against their opponents.

  • MikeAdamson

    Only in your mind…who’s the authoritarian here?

    If it was only in my mind then obviously I wouldn’t bring it up.

    I already know that Dems/lefties are racist, homophobic and bigoted in every way.

    Sadly I have no witty retort for that gem but I will use that as my signature for awhile. I’ll get back to you if I have any questions.

  • MikeAdamson

    So, if a bunch of rich, powerful Jews are doing something the Dems don’t like, they are somehow entitled to use their political power to go against a group of citizens expressing their views?

    That’s an odd thing for you to say…where ever did you come up with that?

    Not unless they are elected public officials; you missed that part of my argument.

    I didn’t miss it…I’m don’t know why it’s relevant. Are you saying that elected officials shouldn’t comment on public issues? Are you also suggesting that elected officials shouldn’t discuss activities of interest groups like AIPAC?

    As for examples, you can start here if you like.

  • Bat One

    Actually, Congressman Jim Moran (D-VA) is no stranger to the far left side of the fence. And his foot is obviously well acquainted with the inside of his mouth. Nor is this his first attempt at anti-Jewish bigotry.

    Both Greyhawk at Mudville Gazette and James Taranto of WSJ’s Best of the Web quoted Moran as blaming the Jews for the invasion of Iraq… back in 2003!

    “If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war with Iraq we would not be doing this,” said Moran.

    Taranto then went on to offer this eerily similar quote,

    This is a war that has been promoted for years by the most radical Jewish supremacists in Israel and America.

    The author of that second quote was racist extraordinaire, David Duke.

  • MikeAdamson

    Is this story part of the discussion or is it a bonus item?

  • robert108

    Sorry but that doesn’t address it at all. It merely explains why the word “Jewish” came up…that was your question. Remember?

    Please, Mike, try to keep up. You indicated that I was somehow unaware that he was speaking to one group of Jews about another group of Jews, specifically trying to create distance between them. Here’s what you said:

    Because AIPAC is a Jewish lobby group. Duh. Also, Tikkun is a California-based Jewish magazine but I wouldn’t expect you to worry too much about the details.

    I then pointed out that I had made this point already, indicating that I was aware that he was addressing one group of Jews to separate them from another group of Jews. Remember what I said about “good Jews” and “bad Jews”? I covered it pretty well, in fact, so your statement implying that I was unaware that he was speaking to one group of Jews(who he described as being not only different from AIPAC, but as being the “mainstream” of Jewish thinking), was not only wrong, but egregiously so.
    In fact, not only did he arrogate to himself the power to declare what is “mainstream Jewish thinking”(what authority does he have to make that judgment?), but that another group, with whom he differs, does not represent “mainstream Jewish thinking”. His entire statement concerns Jewishness, and his judgments about it. How is that not antisemitic? Who is he to make those judgments?

  • MikeAdamson

    I have already addressed this, when I said he was attempting to drive a wedge between Jews.

    Sorry but that doesn’t address it at all. It merely explains why the word “Jewish” came up…that was your question. Remember? :)

  • robert108

    I find your entire line of reasoning an insult to my intelligence and an affront to the dignity of blog commentators everywhere. You don’t need to
    employ denigrating or dismissive language because your “argument” does it for you.

    This is possibly the funniest thing you have ever written, Mike. Your style of “debate” is very weak, and I can see why you might be insulted by my “style” of argument, which is very strong and true.
    Poor baby!

  • Dave

    If I said: “I’m sick of black rappers like 50 Cent, Kanye West, Snoop Dogg, and Shorty Shitstain (I did not make that one up!) writing songs encouraging violence, misogyny, and drug use. They’re setting a bad example.” Does that make me a racist? For the purposes of R108′s ever-changing criteria, assume that I am a “public official.”

  • MikeAdamson

    Of course the real important question is whether I should buy QID on Nasdaq before closing or wait til tomorrow. Any thoughts on that?

  • robert108

    You’re the one describing Tikkun as “one group of Jews” whereas I know nothing about it beyond the fact that it’s a newspaper that interviewed Moran.

    Wrong. Moran told Tikkun(described as a “California Jewish-based magazine”; did you miss that?) that AIPAC didn’t “represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all”. I don’t see how it could be any more obvious that he was playing to the readers of Tikkun(Jews) by telling them that AIPAC’s thinking wasn’t like theirs, thus pitting one group of Jews against another. How is it that you don’t get this obvious pandering to one group over another within a larger group, in order to divide them from one another? It couldn’t be more plain.

  • http://www.HealthInsuranceShopper.com/ California group health insura

    So why does Moran single out the Jews? It’d be interesting to hear him answer that.
    Absolutely

  • MikeAdamson

    You indicated that I was somehow unaware that he was speaking to one group of Jews about another group of Jews, specifically trying to create distance between them.

    This is actually symptomatic of the difficulty we find ourselves in. I didn’t indicate anything like that…you’ve brought up the “driving the wedge motivation” without any evidence whatsoever. You’re the one describing Tikkun as “one group of Jews” whereas I know nothing about it beyond the fact that it’s a newspaper that interviewed Moran.

    The rest of your comment is self-referential mumbo jumbo with no bearing on the thread topic or our debate at all. You’re reduced to repeating your bytes in a mantra like fashion because you can’t bring yourself to accept the plain and verifiable fact that Moran was talking about AIPAC.

    Your subsequent comment does cover more territory but it’s far to long to use as a signature.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…thanks. I see we’ve made this thread a two pager so I think I’m done. Have a nice evening.

  • robert108

    I repeat, don’t question their Semitism!
    Moran and Carter are definitely antisemitic; the court, I don’t know, but it isn’t relevant to this thread.
    Keep changing the subject, though.

  • MikeAdamson

    You see, what you are denying is that Moran’s “criticism” was ethnically-based. His descriptions match the age-old prejudice known as antisemitism. He included their Jewishness, and that’s where he crossed the line. I have said this so many times, and you have not dealt with it, except to try to dismiss me on personal grounds.

    Exactly…you can stop harping on this because I do get it. You believe that Moran’s criticism of AIPAC is criticism of Jews generally and you think that’s antisemitism. I do not accept your argument because, while AIPAC is composed of Jews and does advocate for the state of Israel, AIPAC is but one voice in the Jewish community. If Moran consistently criticised all Jews and every Jewish organisation then you might be on to something.

    It’s your assumption that criticism of any Jew or Jewish organisation represents an act of antisemitism that I am dismissing. I don’t dismiss your assumption on any personal grounds but because your assumption is wrong.

    You also fail to deal with the part about the Dems throwing Jews and Israel “under the bus”.

    Because we’re not talking about that. You’re welcome to bring it up just as I brought up the question of whether you find criticism of the Israeli Labour party antisemitic. You’re free to answer points and questions as you see fit just as I am.

    I have also mentioned that his “criticism” of these rich and powerful Jews also fits right into the “neocon” stereotype advanced by those who hate the Jews who have left the Dem “plantation”.

    I haven’t addressed this comment because I don’t believe that “neocons” are disaffected Jews who have left the Dem plantation. I’m comfortable with these general observations as to what a neocon is.

  • robert108

    BTW, Mike, I’m not a “right-winger”, I’m an American conservative. I support the Constitution and individual independence, neither of which are “right-wing”. It is a conceit of lefties that those who support American values are “right-wing”, but they are dead wrong. Right-wing is military dictatorship, which is simply a different flavor of totalitarianism from that advocated by the lefties, who are really communists.

  • MikeAdamson

    Of course, the only example Rob and I used was what Moran actually said. Shame on us! /sarcasm

    Of course, if you read what Moran actually said then you get no idea that he’s being antisemitic. You need the unsourced innuendo and logical inconsistency provided by a helpful truthseeker to reach that conclusion.

    Straight shooters those right wingers. Yup.

  • robert108

    MikeA: I agree. It’s afternoon where I am, but the thought is appreciated.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…I’m sorry but I honestly thought you were joking with your question. Since you weren’t, my serious response is that your question is ludicrous but not surprising.

  • robert108

    Here you have another Dem politician dumping on AIPAC and Israel, but don’t question their Semitism!

  • robert108

    I think a real antisemite can exclude most Jews from criticism because they aren’t in positions to engage in the behaviours antisemites believe Jews
    engage in.

    I’ll take your word for it. Once again, I consider Moran’s statements to be antisemitic. Nothing cheap or rhetorical about it. It’s a heartfelt opinion, however dismissive you try to be. I think public officials have a greater responsibility for their public utterances than does the average citizen; what politicians say carries the threat of future legislation, especially in this time of increasing govt power and influence in our lives.

  • Jerry

    It’s interesting that AIPAC has said essentially the same thing. The Chairman of AIPAC once said that: “we control the congress [of the United states]” and that they were: “..negotiating over the Secretary of State.” [with the newly elected Bush 41 administration]. Perhaps AIPAC is also anti-semitic?

  • robert108

    In order to avoid confusing you again, Mike, here is what Moran said in his interview, describing AIPAC:

    Moran said the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is “the most powerful lobby and has pushed this war from the beginning. I don’t think they represent the mainstream of American Jewish thinking at all, but because they are so well organized, and their members are extraordinarily powerful — most of them are quite wealthy — they have been able to exert power.

    So, he was only referring to wealthy, powerful Jews who are members of AIPAC, and who support the war. In other words, not all Jews, but some Jews. Get it?

  • Neiman

    Once again you display your inability to engage in intelligent debate of the issues, it is always a personal attack with you. Maybe you should look in in mirror comrade, then you will see the hate is coming only from you!

  • MikeAdamson

    r108…why is criticism of AIPEC antisemetic? Is criticism of the Israeli Labour party also antisemitic?

  • Bat One

    Was it really all that many years ago that THE hot button issue was the use of federal judges and buses to “de-segregate” the nation’s neighborhood schools?

    The plaintiffs in all those cases was the NAACP, the premier special interest group of the Democrat party. And some of the very same liberals who today defend the remarks of Jim Moran, were first in line to label anyone who protested the agenda of the NAACP as being racists and bigots.

    R108,

    The problem with your argument is that you expect liberals to be rational and logically consistent. By now, you ought to know better than that.

  • MikeAdamson

    You continue to try to make me the issue rather than the facts.

    You’re not the issue at all but rather it’s your ludicrous argument that is the issue. There is no way that I can see to construe what Moran is quoted as saying as antisemitic. Perhaps he has said things on other occasions which could be labeled antisemitic…I don’t know and that’s not what we’re debating anyway.

    More ad hominem instead of facts/logic.

    Guilty…sorry about that.

    Rather, you have avoided the facts of the matter, and have continued to try to win by denigration.

    I’m not sure what thread you’ve been reading because it can’t be this one. I have denigrated your argument because it lacks any logical consistency. I’ve explained why Moran’s statements aren’t antisemitic and I’ve demonstrated why your logic is wrong by applying it, as Dave also did, to other situations and circumstances. What is being criticised here is AIPAC’s policy positions and its ability to influence policy in Washington. Since your position is largely in accord with AIPAC’s positions on the war, on Israel and on international relations generally and because you are so virulently opposed to positions that differ from your own, you are quite comfortable adopting and advancing whatever argument supports your viewpoint.

    It’s comical actually.

    I realize you are antiwar, and also anti-”neocon”, so your looking the other way when a Dem makes antisemitic remarks is totally understandable.

    War as a last resort only, anti-”neocon” policies, no antisemitic remarks were made, I don’t care if Moran’s a Dem or a Repub.

    Sorry it makes you so uncomfortable.

    It’s the dishonesty that frustrates me but I’m sure I’ll live.

    dd…thanks. ;)

  • MikeAdamson

    Moran specifically referred to their being Jews in his statement, which made it an ethnic reference.

    I’m not arguing that Jews aren’t an ethnic group and I’m not arguing that Moran wasn’t talking about people who share a common ethnicity i.e. they’re Jews. Of course he was referring to members of an ethnic group but your argument is that his criticism of AIPAC can be considered a criticism of Jews in general. This is wrong because not all Jews agree with AIPAC.

    is it OK to criticize some Jews, but deny that you are criticizing Jews?

    No because that would involve a contradiction and probably a lie. It is okay to criticise some Jews for the policies that they advocate then deny that you are criticising them because they are Jews.

    Moran is talking about a group of people who happen to be Jews and advocate positions that he, and a significant number of Jews, disagree with. His beef is with AIPAC, not with Jews.

  • Dave

    That isn’t my point

    I don’t care what points you are not making, I care what points you are making. If you apply the same standards to my hypothetical statement about black rappers as you did to Jim Moran’s statement, does that make me a racist? What is Robert108′s answer?

  • robert108

    …your argument is that his criticism of AIPAC can be considered a criticism of Jews in general.

    False. I guess I just have to keep repeating this until you get it: His criticism of them was partly based on their support for the war, and partly because they were rich and powerful Jews. In the Dem ideology, all Jews belong with the Dems, and since this particular group of Jews isn’t toeing the Dem Party line, he criticized them. Get it? It doesn’t make him look any better that he employed typical antisemitic stereotypes that were used by the Nazis, among other, in their persecution of Jews throughout history.

  • robert108

    Once again you display your inability to engage in intelligent debate of the issues, it is always a personal attack with you.

    More projection from our resident drama queen. It’s not all about you, Neiman.

  • MikeAdamson

    Moran’s statements about AIPAC revealed his antisemitism;

    Fair enough. If AIPAC’s policy positions were shared by all Jews and if the policy positions were criticised because they were advanced by Jews then I could agree with you.

    It seems silly to me to maintain that accusing some Jews of doing things that they have been persecuted for throughout the ages is not antisemitic if you don’t include all Jews in that accusation.

    I think a real antisemite can exclude most Jews from criticism because they aren’t in positions to engage in the behaviours antisemites believe Jews engage in. It’s actually not silly at all.

    I suspect that you will find criticism of Jews who share your opinions to be antisemitic…it’s a cheap rhetorical trick but it’s seen often enough.

    Thanks for the clarification.

  • Neiman

    I understand that you project your shortcomings on others.

    You amaze others with your great intellect and clever retorts, not. You must be the laugh of the party!

    Anyone disagreeing with you about anything are objects of your extreme, unreasoning hatred! Your reference to Islamic terrorists being your enemies is silly a smokescrean for your rather generic, overarching hatred of almost everyone in the world.

  • MikeAdamson

    This article is also quite good as to who and what the neocons are.

  • robert108

    I will plead guilty to dismissing it because it’s too silly to do otherwise and I’ll have to
    dismiss your delivering it if you persist.

    You have yet to make a reasoned argument for your position, while I have made several for mine. Your above statement is yet another example of your being dismissive instead of making a reasoned argument.
    Please explain why it is OK for an elected official to make the statement he made. A private citizen, no problem, but this guy is representing the citizens who elected him.

  • robert108

    MikeA: You see, according to the Dems, there are “good Jews”(those that support the Dem ideology), and there are “bad Jews”(like AIPAC) who support the war, among other things. Moran was letting the good Jews know that he was only criticizing the bad Jews. That’s the antisemitism.
    When the Dem Party was the party of slavery, they divided blacks into “good n*ggers” and “bad n*ggers”; they are still in that state of mind.

  • robert108

    Ah, more intelligent debate from my arch enemy! You vastly overestimate your status; Islamic terrorists are my arch enemies. If you cannot understand that most of America has gotten literally and figuratively fat and lazy off our many great successes since our founding, you lack any understanding at all.

    I understand that you project your shortcomings on others.

  • MikeAdamson

    Once again, I consider Moran’s statements to be antisemitic. Nothing cheap or rhetorical about it. It’s a heartfelt opinion, however dismissive you try to be.

    Very cheap rhetoric in my opinion. The best rhetoric can withstand a minimal amount of scrutiny whereas this latest example is too self-contradictory and transparent…IMO of course. I will plead guilty to dismissing it because it’s too silly to do otherwise and I’ll have to dismiss your delivering it if you persist.

  • http://sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/white_folks_greed_runs_a_world_in_ Joel

    He criticised AIPAC. When you criticise Hispanic immigration groups are you against Mexicans? When you criticise Democrats are you against Americans? When you criticise abortionists are you against doctors?

    Horse Manure Mike!!

    Some here seem to be taking criticism of AIPAC as veiled antisemitism. Is that your position as well?

    Yes, that’s my position as well!

    Also from the link:

    Moran uses several age-old canards that have been used throughout history that have brought violence upon Jews.

    He uses clearly anti-Semitic images such as Jewish control of the media and wealthy Jews using their wealth to control policy.

  • WETBACK

    Come on theres Jews who are against Israel, theres Jews for Jesus. Are you saying all Jews believe the same despite what they say?

  • MikeAdamson

    lik…that’s a little too much common sense from you this early in the morning. Feeling okay? ;)

  • robert108

    …us soft, fat and lazy Americans…

    Speak for yourself.

  • MikeAdamson

    r108

    My answer is that your question has nothing to do with the Moran situation. I don’t think valid criticism constitutes either racism or antisemitism; Moran’s statements were antisemitism concealed as criticism of the war. In other words, he wasn’t being honest; he was attempting to drive a wedge between AIPAC and the rest of the Jewish community. Get it now?

    I’m not Dave but I get that your argument, or what there is to it, is simply intellectually dishonest and pure nonsense.

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