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Thursday, April 05, 2007

‘Damascus Nancy’ And Unlawful Diplomacy

Nancy Pelosi's recent bumbling foray into foreign policy with Syria shows why diplomacy should be left to that branch of government - the executive branch - that actually has the authority to conduct it. Pelosi conveyed a 'peace message' from Ehud Olmert to Bashar Assad that - woops! - the Israeli government says it never gave to Pelosi. Apparently Nuancy not only missed the shades of gray there, she missed the black and white as well.

Amateurish and embarassing, yes, but is it illegal also? There is a law called the Logan Act that forbids U.S. citizens from conducting diplomacy without approval from the government. The act, as amended in 2004, reads as follows:

18 U.S.C. § 953. Private correspondence with foreign governments.
Any citizen of the United States, wherever he may be, who, without authority of the United States, directly or indirectly commences or carries on any correspondence or intercourse with any foreign government or any officer or agent thereof, with intent to influence the measures or conduct of any foreign government or of any officer or agent thereof, in relation to any disputes or controversies with the United States, or to defeat the measures of the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

This section shall not abridge the right of a citizen to apply himself, or his agent, to any foreign government, or the agents thereof, for redress of any injury which he may have sustained from such government or any of its agents or subjects.

Members of Congress are not immune from the Act, nor do members of Congress have any constitutional authority to conduct foreign policy. The role of the Senates in foreign policy is basically to ratify treaties and confirm ambassadors. The role of the House is to declare war, and control the purse strings. That's it, no more - only the President has the power to actually conduct or authorize foreign policy and diplomacy. Congress has no more authority to conduct diplomacy than it has to tell General Petraeus how to run the war in Iraq (and why do Democrats find it chronically impossible to understand the separation of powers doctrine? Is it laziness, political expediency, or mis/disinformation? Inquiring minds want to know).

Some have come close to violating the Logan Act: in 1971 John Kerry treacherously met with North Vietnamese government officials in Paris while President Nixon was trying to negotiate peace. Kerry much more recently raised toasts with the mullahs in Iran while proclaiming that the U.S. is a 'pariah state'. The irony of declaring the U.S a pariah state from Tehran was obviously lost on the master of nuance. Speaker of the House Jim Wright nearly ran afoul of it for meeting with the Sandinistas, Jesse Jackson came up with a propaganda 'agreement' with Fidel Castro, and Messrs. Jim McDermott and David Bonior infamously provided aid and comfort to Saddam Hussein on the eve of the Iraq invasion.

Given that history, can Nancy Pelosi be prosecuted under the terms of the Logan Act? Well, sure. A federal grand jury can indict a ham sandwich if it so chooses, but such a case is not likely to go anywhere for a myriad of reasons. As a matter of practical policy, no one has ever been prosecuted under the Act since it was passed in 1799. Moreover, the Logan Act may well be unconstitutional because it is vague and overbroad, thus leaving citizens to guess what behavior is proscribed, and criminalizing speech that would otherwise be protected. There is a question however, as to whether First Amendment protections extend to speech by U.S. citizens in foreign countries. But, no matter: it would be politically impossible for such a prosecution to take place. If the DoJ ever tried to prosecute the Speaker of the House for conducting unlawful diplomacy, it would certainly, invariably, lead to more silly show trials on the Hill, more calls for the impeachment of Bush, and spin in the mainstream media that would attempt to convince you that Pelosi, not Bush, is actually President.

Sadly, too many Americans would believe that to make such a prosecution possible.

Crossposted from WILLisms.com

Comments

Avatar for mia

not really happy about the speaker’s role in this one

read a great column here

http://joeleonardi.wordpress.com...eaker-of-state/

you may want to check out the entire site.

Happy Easter

Mia

mia on April 6, 2007 at 05:06 am

Mia,
Link did not work.  She should be arrested.  Clearly driving outside of her lane.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 6, 2007 at 05:24 am

Syria still carries out political arrests and torture…and is responsible for the disappearance of thousands of dissidents as well as the forced exile of many others.

Nancy Peklosi is an idiot with her shadow presidency attempt.

Mickey on April 6, 2007 at 07:01 am

I agree that nothing will be done and under the Logan act may prove very difficult to prosecute anyway. However, in my personal opinion, Madame Pelosi is absolutely, absent any shadow of doubt, guilty of an usurpation of Presidential authority and perogatives, which also hints at a possible attempt to overthrow the government by Congressional fiat. She and her colleagues even stated while in Syria that they (via Lantos) were advancing their own Democrat, Congressional Foreign Policy that is to be the only true foreign policy of the United States.

Our weak sister fellow Americans just don’t care! They have been assaulted for years with a constant barrage of attacks against this Administration wherein their lies have become in the minds of the average American the truth.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 6, 2007 at 07:38 am
Avatar for Hawk

Were you this upset when Dennis Hastert went to Columbia and told their president that to deal directly with Congress and bypass the President?

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 07:51 am

Hawk: Ihinestly don’t even recall that incident you mentioned; however, I assure you that had I known, I would have been just as angry, an dbecause he is a Republican and should no better, I would have been even more angry. I strongly, passionately believe in Three Separate but Equal Branches of Government and in the Constitutional Separation of Powers. I believe this Constitutional construct of our government is sacrosanct (A things so fundamental and critical that it is not to be tampered with in any shape, manner or form whatsoever).

Any questions?


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on April 6, 2007 at 08:24 am
Avatar for Jairzinho

Yes one here. Is it safe to assume that you’d have a similar opinion regarding these comments by Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va)

“I don’t care what the administration says on this. You’ve got to do what you think is in the best interest of your country,” (...)I want us to be successful in Iraq. I want us to clamp down on Hezbollah.”

and by Rep. Robert Aderholt (R-Alabama)

“This is an area where we would disagree with the administration (...)None of us in the Congress work for the president. We have to cast our own votes and ultimately answer to our own constituents”

in their recent visit to SYRIA?

Just curious. (Logan Act anyone?)

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 10:20 am

Jairzinho,

It would be immensely helpful if you provided citations to go with the quotes you’ve posted, so that those who might be interested could check not just the accuracy of the quotes, but the context in which these things were said as well.

That bit of etiquette aside, if Adrholt and/or Wolf represented themselves as being engaged in actual diplomatic efforts, as Pelosi clearly did, saying she brought a new initiative from the Israeli government (when obviously she did not… what was THAT about?, then both Republican congressmen should be held to the same legal standard and prosecuted (and rhetorically flayed) just the same as Speaker Pelosi.

I realize that this can cause confusion and comprehension difficulties for y’all on the Left, but when principled people on the Right say that the same rules should apply equally to all of us, we actually mean it.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2007 at 11:00 am
Avatar for Jairzinho

Bat One,

My pleasure. HERE you can dissect it.

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 11:32 am

Does anyone know of any way to compel the DOJ to pursue such cases? 

Petitions perhaps?

Seth Yantiss on April 6, 2007 at 12:11 pm
Avatar for Jairzinho

...as Pelosi clearly did, saying she brought a new initiative from the Israeli government (when obviously she did not… what was THAT about?,

I think it is about THIS.

I realize that this can cause confusion and comprehension difficulties for y’all on the Left, but when principled people on the Right say that the same rules should apply equally to all of us, we actually mean it.

I’m glad you think so. This includes the Speaker of the House intervening in U.S. foreign policy making depite White House criticism, RIGHT?

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 12:12 pm

J: If memory serves me, Arafat was an honored guest at the Clinton White House many times.  FYI, I don’t think anyone in US govt should have ever done anything with Arafat other than try to kill him.  Many suffered and died under this policy of “negotiating” with him.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Does anyone know of any way to compel the DOJ to pursue such cases? 

I don’t know! If it were some thing like illegal immigration or election fraud, we could try firing 8 US Attorneys and see if the rest take the hint!



Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Proof on April 6, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Avatar for Jairzinho

J:If memory serves me, Arafat was an honored guest at the Clinton White House many times

R: Your point? Oh, I see, that excuses the legislative branch of interfering in foreign policy againts the executive branch wishes or as the title of this entry reads: “Unlawful Diplomacy”. So it was ok then, but it’s not ok now. No wonder Bat One claims that “this can cause confusion and comprehension difficulties”.

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Avatar for Hawk

This is ridiculous.  No self respecting prosecutor would take this case because no law was broken.  Look at the title of the statute.  “Private correspondence with foreing governments.” There was no private correspondence.  The state department approved this trip and a state department official was at all meetings.  These trips are neither uncommon or improper.

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 01:04 pm

Hawk, for once I agree with you.

Of course, it was still poorly advised, as the WaPo editorial pointed out.

Carrick on April 6, 2007 at 01:19 pm

Hawk: One small detail: the State Department has been undermining this President for quite awhile(Armitage), and this is just another example of them doing that very thing by facilitating Pelosi’s visit.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:03 pm

R: Your point? Oh, I see, that excuses the legislative branch of interfering in foreign policy againts the executive branch wishes…

Wrong.  This administration isn’t friendly with the regime in Syria; the Clinton administration was friendly with Arafat; big difference.  The only reason the Clinton regime objected to Newt’s visit was that they wanted all the credit, should anything be accomplished.
In this case, we have a policy of not negtotiating with terrorists, and Pelosi is going directly against that policy.  See the difference, or are your partisan blinders on too tight?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:07 pm
Avatar for Hawk

Hawk: One small detail: the State Department has been undermining this President for quite awhile(Armitage), and this is just another example of them doing that very thing by facilitating Pelosi’s visit.

BFD.  This thread is about the legality of what she did.  It was legal. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the State Department is part of the executive branch.  Maybe the President should keep his own house in order.

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 02:17 pm

BFD.  This thread is about the legality of what she did.  It was legal. That remains to be seen. I think this matter needs to be thoroughly investigated.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the State Department is part of the executive branch. Partially true.  The State Department isn’t changed with every administration. Maybe the President should keep his own house in order.  I agree.  Look how easy it was for him to fire a few US attorneys for not doing their job to his satisfaction.

You asked me what my point was about your flawed example of Newt talking to Arafat, and I explained it; now you want to say: “BFD” Why did you ask, then?
You got refuted, now you want to say it doesn’t matter.  Fragile ego.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:25 pm

Maybe the President should keep his own house in order.

Hawk,

A valid observation.  For starters, George Tenant should have been fired before the close of January, 2001, while both Armitage and Colin Powell should have been axed well before Christmas of 2003.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2007 at 02:28 pm
Avatar for Jairzinho

Wrong.  This administration isn’t friendly with the regime in Syria; the Clinton administration was friendly with Arafat; big difference.

If you’re going to serve as a mediator you cannot take sides. But yes, Clinton was friendlier to Arafat than this administration would ever be to Syria. (Was Reagan being too friendly to Saddam when he sent Rumsfield to Iraq back in 83?)

In this case, we have a policy of not negtotiating with terrorists, and Pelosi is going directly against that policy.  See the difference, or are your partisan blinders on too tight?

You forgot to mention Pelosi and her bipartisan delegation going against that policy. What was that about some partisan blinders again?

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 02:29 pm
Avatar for Jairzinho

R: I (Jairzinho) was the one who brought the Newt-Araft thing here. You are getting confused and having compreh....n/m.

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 02:36 pm

(Was Reagan being too friendly to Saddam when he sent Rumsfield to Iraq back in 83?)

This was to fight the Soviet Union in its effort to take over the ME.  Are you really ignorant of that fact?  No parallel here; as I said, at the time Newt was talking to Arafat, the Clintons were allowing him access to the White House.  It wasn’t a question of degree, as you seem to say.

Recruiting RINOs to claim a “bipartisan delegation” is pure crap, and you know it.  Your entire take on this subject is partisan.
Your criticism of Newt for doing what the Clintons did was partisan, and your excusing Pelosi’s misadventure is also partisan.  BTW, I don’t approve of what Newt did with Arafat; the only reason to deal with that terrorist scum would have been to kill him.
Pelosi negotiates with terrorist scum; you approve of it.  Nothing mysterious there: pure partisanship.
Whether or not what she did was “legal”, it was wrong, especially now.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:38 pm

Excuse me, J; you should have gotten the credit.  The leftie talking points are so identical, sometimes I forget which leftie uttered them.  My apologies.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:41 pm

If you’re going to serve as a mediator you cannot take sides.

Shouldn’t an elected official be loyal to the interests of his country?  I’m just sayin’…
This phony claim of objectivity is typical of leftie MSM reporters, though.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:43 pm
Avatar for Jairzinho

Recruiting RINOs to claim a “bipartisan delegation” is pure crap, and you know it.

I see, Reps in a delegation leaded by Pelosi are RINOs. Dems in a delegation leaded by Newt are what..."moderates"?

BTW, I don’t approve of what Newt did with Arafat

Smartly played, so I cannot accused you of being partisan as well. Congrats. Need to go for now.

Jairzinho on April 6, 2007 at 02:52 pm

J: No “playing” involved.  I’m just telling you the truth about what I believe.  Isn’t it clear that I favor no negotiation with terrorist scum?  Or did you just miss that part.

Dems in a delegation leaded by Newt are what..."moderates"?

No; real Americans.  The Dems are now the Party of Eurosocialism.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 02:57 pm

At lunch today my brother-in-law commented that gas went up ten cents from yesterday.  Rob said, “It’s because Nancy is in Syria.”


Carol's signature
Carol on April 6, 2007 at 04:53 pm

But I suppose not because there were republicans in Syria the weekend before Speaker Pelosi was there.  Oh, I get it, there were republics so it’s ok for them since the silence is deafening about the republics being in Syria.

Puzzlefeet on April 6, 2007 at 05:23 pm

Pelosi did such a great job with her visit she is now taking a lot of heat for her actions.


check out Goon’s World

http://ndgoon.blogspot.com/

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

http://redneckndgoon.blogspot.com/

goon on April 6, 2007 at 05:33 pm

But I suppose not because there were republicans in Syria the weekend before Speaker Pelosi was there.  Oh, I get it, there were republics so it’s ok for them since the silence is deafening about the republics being in Syria.

They weren’t there to undermine the President and the US; Pelosi was.  Get the difference?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 05:35 pm

Prove it, R108.  Your stance is the mere fact that she is a dem that she is there to undermine the President and the US.  Thus you argument is suspect to say the least.  You believe that only Republicans have the interest of the US at heart and no democrat can except for Lieberman.

Now do you get why we disagree with you.  Get it?

Puzzlefeet on April 6, 2007 at 05:40 pm

Your stance is the mere fact that she is a dem that she is there to undermine the President and the US.

Wrong.  Her every utterance since before she assumed office is my evidence.  Her entire agenda is to undermine and obstruct the President in discharging his Constitutional duties as the Chief Executive.  It seems that Pelosi thinks she is now Commander in Chief, even though she was not elected to that office by the American people.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 05:43 pm

You believe that only Republicans have the interest of the US at heart and no democrat can except for Lieberman.

I know that the Dem Party no longer represents the founding principles of the US. If you disagree with me on that, name one of our founding principles they support.  Not their lies, but their actions.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 05:45 pm

Does anyone know of any way to compel the DOJ to pursue such cases?

Petitions perhaps?

Seth,

Not likely.  It’s tough enough to get them to prosecute Democrats in voter fraud cases.  What we need is to bring back former Attorney General John Ashcroft… the one who stuck it to former Deputy AG and Fannie Mae fraud artist, Jamie Gorelick, at the 9-11 Commission hearings.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2007 at 06:03 pm

Here’s one R108:  that the government is to promote the public good. How do they show it? A strong public education system, minimum wage etc.  Now you will strongly disagree which is no surprise but there you have it.

Puzzlefeet on April 6, 2007 at 06:10 pm

I want to see the Federal Marshals frogmarch her off that 757 because of all the illegals she has working her agri and restaurant holdings. All the leaders in Syria,Israel, and Iran are laughing like hell at her plastic ass. This may actually bring them all together, in the end. Laughing at her, that is.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 6, 2007 at 06:15 pm

Strong public education? Where? In Togo.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 6, 2007 at 06:16 pm

...the government is to promote the public good.

Puzzle,

Uh… got a citation or source for that?


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on April 6, 2007 at 06:23 pm

Oh, I dunno, B1 maybe the Preamble to the United States Constitution, where it states “promoting the general welfare”.  Just a thought although the boys with the longknives will be out shortly to vehemently and voraciously decide that they (and you) alone know the true meaning of this clause.

Have at it, boys.

Puzzlefeet on April 6, 2007 at 07:26 pm

Puzzled the general welfare as mentioned in the preamble is best and only produced when you follow the rest of the constitution.

It in now way grants the government any powers.  In fact the Constitution is very specific what the federal government may do (such as enter treaties and coin money).


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on April 6, 2007 at 07:58 pm
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Puzzle, it helps if you read all of what our founders wrote and not just pick and choose the parts of their masterpiece that best suit your warped world view.

Here is the entire preamble:

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

They established the Constitution to provide for the general welfare of the people.  The clause you refer to does not grant unlimited power to our politicians to promote our welfare through government policy, it states the purpose of the constitution itself which was written as a means to limit government power.

I have to wonder if you maybe didn’t flunk out of government 101 or something.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 08:28 pm
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Or maybe you had one of these public school teachers who are only holding on to their job because the teacher’s union has made it too hard for them to be fired.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on April 6, 2007 at 08:28 pm
Avatar for Hawk

I know that the Dem Party no longer represents the founding principles of the US. If you disagree with me on that, name one of our founding principles they support.

You are not the arbitor of what the founding fathers believed and you are totally uneducated about it.  They were both progressive and conservative.  But how about you size up these quotes:

Madison on government and poverty.

To provide employment for the poor, and support for the indigent, is among the primary, and, at the same time, not least difficult cares of the public authority.

Madison on wealth:

There is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by … corporations. The power of all corporations ought to be limited in this respect. The growing wealth acquired by them never fails to be a source of abuses.

Jefferson on taxation:

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions of property in geometrical progression as they rise.

Jefferson on universal education:

A system of general instruction, which shall reach every description of our citizens from the richest to the poorest, as it was the earliest, so will it be the latest of all the public concerns in which I shall permit myself to take an interest.

Washington on liberalism:

As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality.

Now you can probably find quotes that they had conservative views.  That is true.  They had both.  But I didn’t claim that they shared only my views as you did.

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 08:32 pm
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Hawk, are you really so dumb as to think that Washington was using “liberal” as we use it today?

Get a clue, doofus.

Let me respond to those quotes one by one.

Madison Quote 1: Of course jobs and poverty are something the government has to address.  The key is in how the government addresses it.  Good government means cutting taxes, keeping government regulation to a minimum and not giving incentive to laziness and risky social behavior with entitlements thus creating an environment in which the poor have all the opportunities they need to succeed.  What they do with those opportunities is entirely up to them.

Madison Quote 2: I thought the ellipses in this quote was odd, so I looked it up and it turns out that you’re a dishonest schmuck who omitted a word which changes the entire meaning of the quote.  Madison was talking about ecclesiastical corporations, but business corporations.  He was warning of the danger of churches accumulating too much wealth and power.

Jefferson Quote 1: Let’s look at the entire quote:

Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise. Whenever there are in any country uncultivated lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. The earth is given as a common stock for man to labor and live on. If for the encouragement of industry we allow it to be appropriated, we must take care that other employment be provided to those excluded from the appropriation. If we do not, the fundamental right to labor the earth returns to the unemployed. It is too soon yet in our country to say that every man who cannot find employment, but who can find uncultivated land, shall be at liberty to cultivate it, paying a moderate rent. But it is not too soon to provide by every possible means that as few as possible shall be without a little portion of land. The small landholders are the most precious part of a state.

Jefferson is expressing here a rather archaic sense of economics.  Which isn’t surprising given that among the founders it was Hamilton (the least appreciated founding father) who was the true economic genius.  Jefferson may have been more eloquent, but Hamilton was smarter.

What Jefferson is concerned with here is preventing a small number of citizens from buying up all the land in America thus preventing other citizens from buying it.  Jefferson wrote these words at a time when America’s economy was almost entirely dependent upon agriculture.  He could not have predicted that America’s economy would eventually depart from being a wholly agrarian one and evolve into something better, and less dependent upon land ownership.  One need not own a lot of farm land in order to be wealthy in today’s America, thus Jefferson’s plan to raise taxes on property ownership exponentially as more property is owned is unnecessary and entirely archaic.

So you actually look pretty dumb trying to appropriate those words to justify the left’s Marxist desires to seize wealth and redistribute it.  Let us not forget that we are talking about the same man who once said “...a wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned.”

Jefferson Quote 2: Of course Jefferson supported subsidizing education.  Most conservatives do too.  It’s just that most conservatives don’t feel that it’s wise to give teacher’s unions a monopoly over public instruction.  We feel a market based solution would be better. Jefferson would no doubt agree.

I’ve already addressed Washington’s quote.  He was using the classic definition of liberalism.  The one that means small government and lots of individual rights.

So, nice try copying/pasting a bunch of quotes from some lefty talking points memo, but you’re totally misrepresenting the views of the founders.  Which I would say should be a crime were I not so found of your right to say stupid things if you want to.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 08:55 pm
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Did you read the Madison letter you linked to.  He is railing against the accumulation of wealth in perpetuity.  He is coming out against monopolies and basically railing against the type of corporations we have today. 

Do you really think that if the wealth system in the late 1700s would of been based on stocks instead of land that Jefferson would not have been in favor of a proportional tax?  Lets be honest.

Conservatives are for public education just like they are for civil rights, after being dragged kicking and screaming to the light.

I don’t claim that the founding fathers had entirely liberal views, but they didn’t have entirely conservative views either.  They had arguments and discussions.  Their were Federalist and Anti-Federalist. 

Stop perpetuating the myth that conservatives are the rightful heirs to the legacy of the founding fathers.  If the truth be told, most conservatives would of been Tories.

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 09:39 pm
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He is railing against the accumulation of wealth in perpetuity.  He is coming out against monopolies and basically railing against the type of corporations we have today.

No, you twit, go read it again.  He’s not talking about the corporations we have today.  He’s talking about religious corporations.  Madison, being a man of his times, couldn’t have foreseen the creation of the corporations we have today.

Do you really think that if the wealth system in the late 1700s would of been based on stocks instead of land that Jefferson would not have been in favor of a proportional tax?  Lets be honest.

I’m being honest, you are not.  Land is a finite thing.  Stocks are not.  There is a difference, and Jefferson is capable of recognizing that.

Conservatives are for public education just like they are for civil rights, after being dragged kicking and screaming to the light.

Well that’s a childish way of looking at it.  May I remind you that it was a Republican who freed the slaves?  Republicans who passed the civil rights act of 1964 over a Democrat filibuster?  A Republican who entertained the first black man at the White House?  A Republican who first appointed a black woman to a federal position?

The liberal charge that conservatives (who, granted, are not always Republican) stems more from the conservative disdain for entitlements than racism.  We simply do not favor promoting one race of people over another, no matter how well-intentioned it may be.  Equality for all.  And by equality we really mean equal.  Which means no special treatment because you’re black or Hispanic or a woman or gay.

But you dumb libs don’t get that.

I don’t claim that the founding fathers had entirely liberal views, but they didn’t have entirely conservative views either.  They had arguments and discussions.  Their were Federalist and Anti-Federalist.

They were Federalist and Anti-Federalist, but they weren’t Marxists.  They didn’t support robbing the rich and giving subsidized entitlements to the poor.  They didn’t believe in an ever-expanding government.  They didn’t support the government confiscation of property, and they most certainly didn’t support the usurpation of certain basic human liberties.  Like gun ownership.  And, you know, eating what we want to eat.

Stop perpetuating the myth that conservatives are the rightful heirs to the legacy of the founding fathers.

It’s not a myth.

Maybe you should spend some time actually reading what the founding fathers wrote instead of cherry-picking quotes from their writings and pretending like they support your world view.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 09:49 pm
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Did you read the Madison letter you linked to.

I like how you refer to it as the Madison letter I linked to.  As though you weren’t the one who quoted from it first.

Which clearly means that you haven’t read it, or at least did not before you quoted from it.

Tell us, which far-left commy source were you copying and pasting from?  Are you capable of researching these matters for yourself and coming up with your own opinions or do you just parrot what the rest of the leftards are saying?


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 09:53 pm

You are not the arbitor of what the founding fathers believed and you are totally uneducated about it.  They were both progressive and conservative. 
But how about you size up these quotes:

I do not claim to be an “arbiter” of anything; I have studied our Founding Documents extensively, compared them with the ideology of both parties, and have reached my conclusion.  Studying your cherry-picked and out of context “quotes” tells me that you are the uneducated one, Hawk.
BTW, you haven’t given one Founding Principle that today’s Dem Party supports.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 10:10 pm
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No, you twit, go read it again.  He’s not talking about the corporations we have today.  He’s talking about religious corporations.  Madison, being a man of his times, couldn’t have foreseen the creation of the corporations we have today.

The letter talks about monopolies, perpetuities, corporations and ecclesistic bodies.  The first third of the letter never even mentions the ecclesistic bodies.  He talks about how perpetuities have rightly been outlawed.  He is speaking out against the accumulation of great wealth in all forms, not just religious.

The Republican party of the 1860s was actually the progressive party.  I didn’t use the word Republican when talking about civil rights, I used the word conservative.

The liberal charge that conservatives (who, granted, are not always Republican) stems more from the conservative disdain for entitlements than racism.  We simply do not favor promoting one race of people over another, no matter how well-intentioned it may be.  Equality for all.  And by equality we really mean equal.  Which means no special treatment because you’re black or Hispanic or a woman or gay.

It’s only equal if you start in the same place.  The Civil Rights movement happened because the group in power used that power to make sure they didn’t lose it.  No 40 years later it may be to a lesser degree but it hasn’t been cured.  Their is still a societal benefit to ensuring that all parts of the society are served.

Maybe you should spend some time actually reading what the founding fathers wrote instead of cherry-picking quotes from their writings and pretending like they support your world view.

I’m not claiming that the Founding Fathers adhered to all my world views.  That is you.  I think there may have been some smart people after them.  But they certainly didn’t have all your world views either.  Its sophistry to believe so.

Hawk on April 6, 2007 at 10:18 pm

Here’s one R108:  that the government is to promote the public good.

In the first place, the Founding Principles are not established in the Preamble to the Constitution; rather they are broad general guidelines.  The real FP are in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Nevertheless, the words you write don’t appear anywhere, either in the Preamble or anywhere else but Marxist literature.  The exact words in the Preamble are “...promote the general welfare...” I know, in your leftie mind, “welfare” means govt mandated income redistribution, but that isn’t the meaning in the Preamble, since that commie crap didn’t exist then.  What it really means is the well-being of the citizens, through promoting their freedom, something that wasn’t generally available to ordinary citizens in the world of that day, the world of monarchy.  Citizens were generally known as “subjects” then, and the Preamble dispelled that notion.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 10:20 pm

The letter talks about monopolies, perpetuities, corporations and ecclesistic bodies.

In the monarchial world of that day, those terms had entirely different meanings from what they have today.  You are like most lefties: entirely ignorant of economics, even at the basic level, and especially economic history.  Educate yourself, Hawk.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 10:46 pm
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We’re speaking in generalities, Hawk.  I recognize that not all of the founding father’s beliefs are like my own.  Jefferson was opposed to a standing national army, for instance.  Clearly, posterity has proven him wrong on that point.

But in general the founding fathers agreed that government should be restrained, not grown, and that equality and individual liberties should be preserved at all costs.

Modern liberalism, which you adhere to, is against all those things.  You favor growing the government, steamrolling individual liberties and inequality in that you support preferential treatment and entitlement based on things like economic status, skin color and gender.

I can’t explain these things to you in terms that are any simpler.  Your beliefs run contrary to the beliefs this country was founded upon.  That you can’t recognize this speaks volumes about the level of your intelligence.

Said level is probably why you believe as you do in the first place.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 10:59 pm
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By the way, I still don’t think you’ve bothered to read Madison’s letter.

If the first part really says what you think it says, then why didn’t you quote from there instead of the part about churches?

Again, it’s because you never actually read the letter.  You just copy/pasted Madison’s quote from some Marxist site seeking to use Madison’s name and some of his cherrypicked words inappropriately to justify beliefs Madison did not adhere to.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on April 6, 2007 at 11:01 pm

Rob: Of course, the real joke here is that at the time of the Founding of this country, Marxism didn’t exist.  I personally believe that this is why our Constitution doesn’t specifically address the lies of Karl Marx, like the one where he suggests that his ideology is “for the people”.  What a joke!


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on April 6, 2007 at 11:49 pm

R108,

Didn’t they try that communal living thing early on, and as starvation was threatening, Captain John Smith intoned, You don’t work, you don’t eat?

So much for Each according to his needs, each according to his abilities, in the good old US of A, hey?

Marxism is pretty much a European import, starting in the late 1800’s.

The communal living concept predated this, in the form of cults like the Shakers, but they were far from the main stream and usually collapsed under the weight of their own contradictions.

The Left from 1900 on.


...for great justice

Move_Zig on April 7, 2007 at 02:54 am

Gee, Rob, a bit snippy this morning.  Thanks for the welcome back though.

But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you were out a bit late last night.  So let’s review:  R108 wrote:

I know that the Dem Party no longer represents the founding principles of the US. If you disagree with me on that, name one of our founding principles they support.  Not their lies, but their actions.

So I gave him one, Rob.  I could have quoted the entire preamble but chose to answer the question posed.

Perhaps, just perhaps,Rob, you flunked Reading 101 and need some summer school.  It’s fast approaching and you can still get in. But again, I think you just couldn’t wait to jump on something I wrote so you could attack in your usual inimitable style I have missed so much.

Puzzlefeet on April 7, 2007 at 07:56 am

No, puzz, you misrepresented the words of the Preamble and got pissy when no one took you seriously. Seems to be a pattern developing here.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 7, 2007 at 08:14 am
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In the monarchial world of that day, those terms had entirely different meanings from what they have today.  You are like most lefties: entirely ignorant of economics, even at the basic level, and especially economic history.  Educate yourself

I’ll admit I cut and pasted this quote because I was in a hurry and Bat One was looking for examples of the FFs supporting liberal ideas instead of conservative.  This letter in full supports that.  I’ve already saud that the closest thing to a modern day corporation was the perpetuity.  When corporate law was established in this country in the early 1800s corporations actually had lifespans.  After a certain amount of time they were disolved no matter what.  It wasn’t until the 1880s when the railroad corporations bought a supreme court justice that corporations were given contsitutional status as persons and the lifespan requirement ended.  Madison was talking about this type of accumulated wealth by organizations.

Jefferson was opposed to a standing national army, for instance.  Clearly, posterity has proven him wrong on that point.

I’m not so sure about that.  The founding fathers reason for not wanting a standing army is because it is natural to want to use in and to start poorly conceived wars.  WWI and WWII were largely fought by an army of draftees.  If a war is important enough to fight, why isn’t it important enough to draft?

and that equality and individual liberties should be preserved at all costs.

BS.  If you were really concerned about individual liberty you would be outraged by the gutting of the 4th Amendment and Habeous Corpus rights instead about laws about what you can ear.

The Constitution sets up a political system not an economic system.

You want to know what liberal ideas I support, here they are:  1.  A strong middle class, 2.  Economic opportunity for all, 3.  Helping the poor, 4.  The protection of the commons, 5.  The peoples taking back the government from corporate interest, 6.  The protection of individual liberty.

Conservatives talk about limited government as if it is an end in itself.  (Yet they always support Presidents who try to centralize power.) I really care less if there is limited government or not as long as it is responsive to the people’s needs.  Government is a tool of society.

Hawk on April 7, 2007 at 10:01 am

hawk, you can dance and spin in any manner you wish, the founders of the United States of America did not in any way, shape, or form advocate nor support Marxist Socialism under any name or description. Period.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 7, 2007 at 10:27 am

What is with these Marxist communists?  Are they just lazy non-workers or egomaniacs who want to rule the world?


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on April 10, 2007 at 06:06 pm

What is with these Marxist communists?  Are they just lazy non-workers or egomaniacs who want to rule the world?

Yes.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on April 10, 2007 at 06:45 pm

A little from column A. A little from column B.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on April 10, 2007 at 06:52 pm

that the government is to promote the public good.

The best way that government can promote the public good is to stay the F*** out of every citizens way.


Being liberal is never having to admit you’re wrong

docdave on April 29, 2007 at 06:30 pm
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