Say Anything Blog

LOL. Stein’s been reading too much late-era Normal Mailer.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Norman Mailer rather.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

April 21 is the show, and methinks that the NR guy is overwrought about this.  Stein notes that his main beef is not directly with science itself, but rather with “scientists telling them what to do.”  In other words, the quibble is not with the technological advances made possible by science, but rather the moral desert that happens from purely materialistic philosophy.

Which, yes, involved Hitler.  Here an interview that points out that Darwin’s philosophy is prominent in Mein Kampf.

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles5/OlaskyHitler.php

He said “science leads you to killing people.”

I think creationism is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of (though I respect people’s right to believe it if they want), but if you’re going to be an advocate for it you may want to avoid saying things as abysmally stupid as “science leads you to killing people.”

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Which, yes, involved Hitler.  Here an interview that points out that Darwin’s philosophy is prominent in Mein Kampf.

Making this comparison is like judging Christianity based on the history of the inquisitions.  Not all pursuit of science has been on sound moral footing, but the same can be said of religion.

I don’t think it’s fair to tar science with with Hitler’s ghoulish experimenters any more than it’s fair to tar Christians with the legacy of dark-age Catholics.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Ben Stein is pretty smart, but when he argues religious views he makes elementary mistakes.

Why is it unfair to point out that Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and legions of other Communists taught Darwin before introducing Marx, Rob?

Sorry, friend, but this is an ugly historical fact; science unmoored from the moral claims of tradition and religion has repeatedly led to genocide and war—in a way that makes most every previous atrocity pale in comparison—by orders of magnitude.

And again, you’ve got to read this in its context, which includes what Stein notes about Auschwitz, and it includes also the fact that the film itself is a plea for open minded science, not the end of it. 

Derbyshire, again, bobbles this one something fierce by ignoring the context.

Sorry, friend, but this is an ugly historical fact; science unmoored from the moral claims of tradition and religion has repeatedly led to genocide and war…

Survival of the fittest is practiced in nature. This is devoid of “moral claims of tradition” as well as religion. It’s just a cold hard fact.

Don’t blame the fact. Blame the tyrants.

Sorry, friend, but this is an ugly historical fact; science unmoored from the moral claims of tradition and religion has repeatedly led to genocide and war

I could say that religion more often than science has led to genocide and war (the body count is still mounting in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict).

I tire of people impugning atheists (and I take this personally because I am one) by invoking secular regimes like Mao, Stalin, etc. (Hitler, I’d add, was quite spiritual if not exactly Christian though I think sometimes those of you with religion need the difference between “atheism” and things like “paganism” pounded into your skulls).  It’s tiresome.  I mean, how many people have the Muslims murdered in the name of their religion?  How about the Catholics?  The Crusades?  How many protestants and Catholics have killed each other in England throughout the ages?  And Ireland?

For being grounded in tradition and morality, killing in the name of religion has a much higher body count than killing in the name of atheism.

But setting all that aside, do you really think that this line of argument excuses creationism which ignores a gigantic body of science about the age of this planet and its changes throughout eons of history?  Science which, frankly, has little to do with morality and a whole lot to do with just the age of rocks and things?

You expect me to believe creationists when they tell me the earth is only 2,000 years old based on nothing more than some notion that they have a monopoly on morality?

This is why creationists aren’t taken seriously.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Well said, Lik, except for one thing; most animals don’t kill their own kind except in dire circumstances.  So no, Hobbes’ “Nature red in tooth and claw” is something of a myth.

And you want to compare the Inquisition—a few tens of thousands over a space of centuries—to the Darwin-inspired Holocaust, or Stalin’s purges, or Lenin’s purges, or the Cultural Revolution, which killed tens of millions over the space of decades or less?

Be my guest, Rob.  Let’s compare, knowing that the kill rate for the latter exceeds that of the former by about four or five orders of magnitude. 

And no, the argument for a young earth and special creation does not begin and end with the moral argument for God’s existence, let alone from any claim that religious believers of any persuasion are intrinsically the only moral people.  You’ve got issues like the cooling of the earth, the orbits of planetary moons, rapid deposition of rock layers, petroglyphs clearly showing dinosaurs and legends of dragons, and abundant anthropological evidence across hundreds of cultures referring to a worldwide flood.

And lots more.

All of you should see the movie Expelled before you jump to conclusions about Stein. Intelligent Design is not creationism nor is it religious in the traditional sense of religion. It does not advocate any religion deity over another. It does not lend itself to any formal practiced religion. Creationism belongs to biblical reference and is related to Jewish / Christian doctrine.

Intelligent design simply says that there is more to development of life than evolution can explain. He points out that there are many holes in the evolution theory starting with the beginning of life which Darwinian Theory can not explain. But he also points out that there is a place for evolution in the Intelligent Design hypothesis.

Considering that it takes roughly 180 complex amino acids to create even the most simple, living single cell organism, the odds of this happening randomly are like 1 in a billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion.

Don’t be too quick to judge Ben Stein. He is in good company with this one.

...the odds of this happening randomly are like 1 in a billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion, billion.

Given the size and scope of the universe, these are good odds.

Rob,

Also, Hitler DID use Darwin’s writings to justify the killing of Jews. In his mind he was cleaning the gene pool. So Stein was making a statement based on historical fact. The Nazi’s also used Darwin’s theory to advance their “Pure Race” experiments when they attempted to breed the perfect Arian.

Ben Stein is not anti science, he is against the movement in the world to stifle contrary science.
Just like the Global Warming crowd is doing.

Intelligent design is not science—it offers no testable hypotheses.  It’s premise must simply be taken as faith—again, that’s not science.  So there is no move to “stifle contrary science.”

Also, Mickey—

He points out that there are many holes in the evolution theory starting with the beginning of life which Darwinian Theory can not explain.

—evolution does not claim or pretend to have an answer for where life came from, how it started, etc.—evolution is a theory (in the scientific sense, not in a “hmm, let’s just guess and say this happened” way) that deals with how life has changed since it began.  There’s a difference.

likwidshoe,

And what created the big bang? Or was it ....magic?

Today, we know more about what goes on inside a cell, and DNA and related science than Darwin could ever imagine. Evolution and Darwinian Theory is a good primer but it is not the total answer. Evolution still can not explain the missing link between man and ape.

Be my guest, Rob.  Let’s compare, knowing that the kill rate for the latter exceeds that of the former by about four or five orders of magnitude.

Uh…if you say so.  Stalin, Mao and Hitler, etc. killed tens of millions but I’d be willing to bet that the inquisitions, crusades, etc. killed just as many.

Though I suspect that’s probably pretty inconvenient for your theory here so you’ll discount it and move on.  Just as you discount the mountains of evidence which suggests that “young earth” theories are the intellectual equivalent of “flat earth” theories.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

God invented science to allow man to do good things with it.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Just as you discount the mountains of evidence which suggests that “young earth” theories are the intellectual equivalent of “flat earth” theories.

Young Earth, Flat Earth, Global Warming, Eugenics.  They’ll all wind up on the ash heap of history.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

mdmdc,

—evolution does not claim or pretend to have an answer for where life came from, how it started,

Actually, evolutionist science does claim that life crawled out of the ooze. Only problem is they can not recreate that claim in a lab. No one can.

Rob, you COULD actually look it up, and realize that the great religious wars of history in general didn’t kill that many people.  Again, the Crusades killed tens of thousands, as did the Inquisition, over centuries.  It’s nothing compared to the kill rate of militant Darwinism. 

And mdmdc, nice evolutionist talking points, but there certainly is a central testable hypothesis to intelligent design; that certain portions of our design are too complex to have occurred randomly.  Demonstrate the latter, and you’ve defeated the premise.

And what created the big bang? Or was it ....magic?

Hey, I’m willing to admit that evolution and an intelligent creator aren’t mutually exclusive things.

What pisses me off is people trying to tell us that man walked around with dinosaurs and the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Ben Stein is not anti science, he is against the movement in the world to stifle contrary science.

So what are the religious nuts who want to ban teaching evolution doing?  Is that not stifling as well?

Conveniently, Stein leaves that part out of his movie.

Evolution still can not explain the missing link between man and ape.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t one.  Why long did it take us to find out that animals like the giant squid existed?

The basic fallacy most creationists adhere to is the idea that because science is imperfect it is inherently wrong.

I freely admit that science hasn’t filled all the holes on evolution, or creation, but it has provided the best answers we have so far.  That those answers fail to fit in conveniently with the dogma of religions hailing from the dark and ignorant ages of humanity is hardly a pertinent point.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Nope, Mickey—evolutionary science focuses on the changes.  Now, there are scientific efforts to describe how life began, but that is not the thrust of evolutionary science.

Go ahead, google away—the only sites that will tell you that evolution tries to explain the origins of life are those written by creationist/ID supporters.

The only dividing factor in evolution and intelligent design is that later suggests that some guiding power is behind it all. How does that hurt anything? The science of evolution has the premise that everything is the result of random pot luck.

Flip a coin if you like.

Rob, you COULD actually look it up, and realize that the great religious wars of history in general didn’t kill that many people.  Again, the Crusades killed tens of thousands, as did the Inquisition, over centuries.  It’s nothing compared to the kill rate of militant Darwinism.

Bubba, if you’re going to use the term “militant Darwinism” as though it were interchangeable with terms like “Communism” and “Fascism” I’m going to laugh at you.  That dictatorial regimes tend to be secular is hardly proof that former caused the latter.  Correlation does not suggest causation, and your theory goes out the window when we consider that you can be atheist and fiercely oppose communism and fascism (I’m proof of that) and that you can be Christian and do horrible things (The Popes, etc).

And I can’t actually look it up.  Due to poor record keeping, we have absolutely no idea how many people have been killed in the name of religion.  I mean, we can’t even put a specific number on the people Saddam killed and that was in modern times.

The Bible itself catalogs about 1.283 million deaths (things like Moses killing Israelites for worshiping the golden calf) and that’s, what, a thousand years or so before the Popes really got going in their killing?

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Not too worry.
He’s only shilling for his own movie.
He needs more ticket sales.
Someone has to pay.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

The only dividing factor in evolution and intelligent design is that later suggests that some guiding power is behind it all. How does that hurt anything?

It doesn’t, and I don’t have a problem with the people who feel that way.

I do have a problem with people who think that atheism is equivalent to communism/nazism.  I also have a problem with the “young earth” people.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

mdmdc,

Those evolutionists, who are purest, and agnostic, insist that life is not the act of a greater power. They then fit it into their theory. And after all, it is ONLY a theory. As I said earlier, evolution fits into inteligent design.

Rob,
You need to drop the “creationist” aspect of this argument. Intelligent Design and Ben Stein is not creationist based in the theory.

I agree, the bible is not a science book. It was written 500 years after Christ was killed.
We need to take religion with a grain of salt.

Just watch the movie. It is a quick 90 minutes.

Mickey - And what created the big bang?

I don’t know.

I don’t claim to have the answers.

Or was it ....magic?

I think it’s pretty magical that we exist at all.

Evolution and Darwinian Theory is a good primer but it is not the total answer.

Faith.

Evolution still can not explain the missing link between man and ape.

Begging the question.

Evolutionary science is still crawling out of the dark ages, and you are jumpin’ ugly that we don’t have all of the answers yet. *shrug*

I really do thinkthat Ben Stein haslost it. I do agreethat thosethe teach ID sould not be shunned and loose their jobs.

But ID is just another name for creationism.  Darwimism does not say anything about the Big Bang.

And the Militant Darwinist are called Social Darwinist and they are idiots that use Darwin to kill others not like themselves. Rev Wright is using it, Blacks use Left Brain and whites use Right Brain is what the KKK used to justify thier idiotic stance that whites are better than blacks.  And that is not true Darwinism. Margeret Snager used Social Darwinism to say we should abort black kids and Itlalian kids This is not Darswinism either.  that is saying that Mitt Romney is just like the pedophiles in Texas.

Darwinism does not explain everything,but it is the best Thery of how animals evolve.

Science is a process.

It is the process by which we test theories to learn new things.

Unlike evolution, which may one day cure AIDS (the virus evolves in accordance with Darwin’s theory), Creative Design is not going to give us any new answers. So can we just agree that regardless of its veracity, it is a completely useless “theory” and there is no point teaching it in science class? Even if it accounts precisely for how we came into being, it tells us fuckall about anything useful. Teach it in philosophy or, better yet, in theology.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

He said “science leads you to killing people.”

In the context of the influence of science within political ideology he may have a point.  I really don’t care though.  It is typical of ideological opponents to attack the single remark of Stein and ignore the facts brought out in “Expelled”. 

For all you who are so put out by the thought that creationists believe in a 6-10,000 year old earth answer this:  what the hell does it matter to you either religiously, ideologically, or politically if others hold to something you all forsake—faith?  and… What difference does it make politically? 

The issue Stein brings out is similar to that in “Indoctrinate U”.  Higher education and the institutions closely aligned therewith, have all but written legislation to ban any sort of thought which it disagrees with.  That is the more important issue than how old the earth is.

There is a whole lotta guessing going on in here regarding Intelligent Design.

The advocates of Intelligent Design are not trying to replace Darwin’s theory.
Darwin made some brilliant observational conclusions. But to believe in evolution without question involves a great deal of faith in itself.

Intelligent design is not threatening if you approach it with an open mind.

...his anti-evolution movie…

I thought the larger theme was about the left’s control of the education system, leading to an elimination of choice and a narrowing of discourse.  Oh well.

In all fairness, Eugenics, as practiced by Hitler and others(including Margaret Sanger) was a perversion of the teachings of Darwin, and so is the stuff put out by modern “evolutionists”.  Darwin himself was a man of God.  Secular humanists, like they did when they devised Eugenics, have perverted his teachings to justify the elimination of God from the creation process.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Folks,

Several of the common elements of Progressvism which passed on to socialism, Communism, fascism, and modern liberalism (which are all linear descendents of Progressivism) is a belief that the full power of the state must be harnessed to enforce the progress of man.  This “progress” is measured and defined by science (and more often, pseudo science) as directed by technical/scientific/party elites.  The body count thus piled up exceeds 200,000,000 and may exceed 300,000,000 (the Communists were lousy record keepers in such matters).

While I would not lay the blame with science qua science, it would take a willing suspension of disbelief to discredit the uses to which totalitarian systems have applied science (and more often, pseudo science) in the pursuit of their political goals.  Science, to the Progressives and their intellectual descendents, is merely a tool in the political tool chest to be used where deemed appropriate (or where it can be perverted to fit).

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves
(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destroyed.”

Good point, RG!  The lefties completely ignored science in the matter of DDT and malaria, didn’t they?  They cared more about power and control than they did about the millions in Africa who would die as a result.  Not so scientific.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Likwidshoe is awesome. I’m not even gonna bother making arguments anymore, I’m just going to quote from his logic page from now on.

I thought the larger theme was about the left’s control of the education system, leading to an elimination of choice and a narrowing of discourse.

Appeal to Pity

Darwin himself was a man of God.  Secular humanists, like they did when they devised Eugenics, have perverted his teachings to justify the elimination of God from the creation process.

Appeal to Authorty

But to believe in evolution without question involves a great deal of faith in itself.

Excluded Middle

Intelligent design is not threatening if you approach it with an open mind.

Tying (the scientific with the ethical question of open mindedness)

it would take a willing suspension of disbelief to discredit the uses to which totalitarian systems have applied science (and more often, pseudo science) in the pursuit of their political goals.  Science, to the Progressives and their intellectual descendents, is merely a tool in the political tool chest to be used where deemed appropriate (or where it can be perverted to fit).

Extended Analogy

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Lots of links with no facts.  Not so good.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Rob, sigh….

1. ID isn’t creationism. Arguing that there must have been an intelligent designer is not the same as arguing that the Eart was created in 6 days. It’s rather dishonest to keep dismissing ID as creationism.

2. The Crusades were to reclaim the holy lands against Muslim agression. The Spanish Inquisition was the (secular) crown exerting it’s influence over the Catholic Church. And by lumping in the Palestinian/Jewish conflict in there…it impugns both Islam and Judais, which isn’t fair.
And if we compare Aushwitz alone to that, the crimes of the modern athiest far surpass the ancient religions, including Islam.

3. Hitler may have spoken about God to the masses, but he made it clear in his writings that he was virulently anti-Christian. It was a slave religion in his mind. Believing a few words Hitler said, instead of looking at his record of persecution, is silly.

4. Islam and Christianity are not the same thing. Comparing them is not fair.

5. The athiest nature of Mao, Hitler, Stalin, et al, was integral to their philosophy. The “Christian” nature of the attrocities attributed to Christianity is exaggerated. The Salem Witch trials were not Christian crimes by any nature, nor were they even superstitious. They were cold calculated murders using public hysteria to get public support.

6. Stein is not anti-science.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Unlike evolution, which may one day cure AIDS (the virus evolves in accordance with Darwin’s theory), Creative Design is not going to give us any new answers.

So, to paraphrase, who cares if it’s correct? EVOLUTION HO!

The theory of evolution will do nothing to cure AIDS. What nonsense.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Science the one thing that kills us and saves us. I wonder if religion saves us from the science that kills us.

There is a huge scrap pile of abandoned scientific theories on the earth. 

There are lots of Religions on another pile.  Came and went.

Somehow for over 6000 years worship of the one true God has persisted from then till now.

Not yet abandoned.  What Stein was saying and correctly in my opinion is that reason and philosophy will lead you to Hitlerian rationale.

It’s sad and I don’t think science is the answer.  Science is a moving target.  Faith in God is Unchanging.

Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this is their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce.       
And they go down fighting.

Kenny: Good points, all!  Unfortunately, atheists(even reasonable ones like Rob) tend to lump all religions together.  When you reject God altogether, you tend to miss the differences between how the various religions interpret God’s Teachings, which varies widely.  Atheism, on the other hand, is pretty homogenized.  They have human judgment and randomness; that’s pretty much the range of possibilities.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Kenny: It’s quite probable that secular humanism enabled the spread of AIDS through declaring homosexuality “just another lifestyle”, and “if it feels good, do it.”

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Science is nothing more than a tool.

I no more blame science when bad things happen than I blame the gun when a criminal shoots someone.

The site really does account for all the crap you guys spout.

Lots of links with no facts.  Not so good.

Dodgedness

Somehow for over 6000 years worship of the one true God has persisted from then till now.

Bandwagon

Kenny: Good points, all!

Argument Ad Nauseam (I’m also a bit guilty of this one here)

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

HP: I hope you don’t think your snark is actually making any sort of an argument here.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

“It is interesting to note that, in the forward to the most recent edition of Darwin’s Origin of Species, a leading evolutionary biologist, Professor L. Harrison Matthews, F.R.S., recognizes that “Belief in evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation - both are concepts which believers know to be true but neither, up to the present, has been capable of proof.”

“If evolution is taking place today, it operates too slowly to be measureable, and, therefore, is outside the realm of empirical science.” “There is no way to prove that changes within present kinds eventually change those kinds into different, higher kinds.”

“Thomas Huxley, probably more responsible than any other one man for the acceptance of Darwinian philosophy, nevertheless recognized that: “creation in the ordinary sense of the word, is perfectly conceivable. I find no difficulty in conceiving that, at some former period, this universe was not in existence; and that it made its appearance in six days . . . in consequence of the volition of some pre-existing Being.” Why? The presence of such massive complex design demands a pre-existent Designer, as random mutations over time can never result in complex design.

I should point out to Rob that Christians do not claim the earth is two thousand years old, but 6,000 to as much as 10,000. If you say bullshit, I ask how do you know, were you there? If not, you are basing your billions of years theory on an atheistic religious faith.

Lastly, while Rob can be a very reasonable atheist, I must point out that most of the greatest scientists in all human history were Christians and believed in the Divine Creation model for life. Further, there are a great many, innumerable reputable scientists today that believe either in special Creation, Divine Creation, Intelligent Design or at a minimum admit that evolutionary theory is as much faith based as is that of the Creation model.

None of this gets us anywhere because atheists and so-called secular scientists are in matter of fact adherents to a model of life that is faith based, as it cannot be absolutely established by observable, empirical scientific methodology. Thus, we have two competing faith based systems for explaining the existence of all life, both using the exact same data, with one struggling to prove what they cannot prove and the other predicting what the data eventually establishes as being fact.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

What pisses me off is people trying to tell us that man walked around with dinosaurs and the earth is only a few thousand years old.

Why does that piss you off rob?  I thought you said that you don’t care if people believe that.  Freedom of speech goes both ways.

And the number of people that the Crusades killed are dwarfed in comparison to the amount of people that have been killed by Muslims.  And with your Moses killing people link, if you believe that the Bible is not true then you cannot understand the context of the scripture.

You say that young eathers piss you off.  Well I’m sorry.  But I get really tired of people who believe in atheism and darwinism that tell me that I am crazy because of my religious beliefs. 

You may think that creationists are crazy and have junk science but prominent darwinists in Ben Stein’s movie (I saw it opening night) say they believe that either life began somehow on the back of crystals or that some alien life from planted life on our planet.  Kinda sounds like science fiction and Planet of the Apes to me.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

Dougee, in wide round numbers, how old do you think the earth is?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Honestly, about 12,000 to 20,000 years old.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

Neiman, in wide round numbers, how long have homosapiens walked the earth?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Thank you dougee.

How did you come to those numbers and did homosapiens live here from the beginning?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Honestly, about 12,000 to 20,000 years old.

Should have been a CE instead of an ME.  A geology class could have done you wonders Dougee.

Honestly, about 12,000 to 20,000 years old.

Wow

Now hold on…I really want to know how dougee has come to believe those numbers.

dougee?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Dougee: For your own good, I encourage you to not even read what RBB and Hannitized write, they are not interested in honest debate, they are only interested in attacking anyone not agreeing with their liberal beliefs. I won’t anymore and I certainly won’t respond to them. Ask Pparets among others, these guys are not nice people.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Should have been a CE instead of an ME.  A geology class could have done you wonders Dougee.

CE classes are too easy.  I wanted something with a challenge.

Now hold on…I really want to know how dougee has come to believe those numbers.

Sorry, was watching Bill’s interview with Hillary.  But I do believe that because of my religious beliefs.  I am not afraid or ashamed of my Christian faith where I will hide that fact like many other Christians.  I know that I believe it mostly by faith but then again any person who believes that the earth is billions of years old has to do so with a certain degree of faith.

Wow, Hannitized, I admit my beliefs and am not scared to say so.  I am pretty sure I have already heard and been called any childish name that you can come up with.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

Thanks Neiman, you truly are a friend.  I have taken crap for my personal belief in Jesus for years from people just like rbb and Hannitized.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

Dougee, I see that you are more of a man that Neiman. He typically cowers from challenging topics. Thank you for your answers.

I hope you are able to dismiss the private messages you must certainly be receiving.

Dougee, how do you account for what is now accepted as a scientific base line, the carbon dating process?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

dougee: They’re simply playing “Attack the Christian”.  It’s a lot like Salem.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

dougee, have I attacked you here?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

The Earth has been around a lot longer than the current version of “science”, but the believers in science are unshaken in their faith.  They are simply unable to understand why believers in God are unshaken in theirs, or are too threatened by a diversity of opinion about why things happen, and have to attack anything that questions their orthodoxy.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The Earth has been around a lot longer than the current version of “science”, but the believers in science are unshaken in their faith.

r, you think the earth is older that what scientist currently believe?

r, how old do you think the earth is?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

r, how old do you think the earth is?

How old do you believe the Earth is?  Will you modify your belief when some scientist changes the orthodox version?  Why do you believe what scientists tell you?  Have you personally verified their information/opinion?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

r, how old do you think the earth is?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection—how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.

Evolutionary science claims an undirected process such as natural selection as the apparent design of life.

The hard part is to be objective because science impacts religion.

Mickey, does ID use science to approximate the earths time line or animal time lines?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Wow!!  You all have had an extremely open-minded and interesting discussion (except of course when our resident whacked-out lefties butted in - as I have said before ‘get a life’).

At the beginning Rob posted ‘I think creationism is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of (though I respect people’s right to believe it if they want)’ which is easily reversed to say ;I think atheism is about the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of (though I respect people’s right to believe it if they want)’.  Neither expression has any value and is really disrespectful rather than respectful.  Sorry, Rob, but your anti-religions bias is showing.

As for science, one thing that is easy to forget is that hard science is primarily concerned with discovery, finding WHAT is already in existence, not WHY it exists or HOW it came into existence.  The WHY and HOW are more philosophical questions than science.  Now cosmology and other ‘soft’ sciences will stray into the HOW question is some areas such as determining the age of the univers but all of their ‘discoveries’ are just theories based on assumptions and projections of ‘old’ data which cannot be reproduced by any know method.

The subject of Intelligent Design reduces to the question of whether there is a God since it would take a godly entity to create the universe and everything in it.  Now those that don’t believe in a God are quick to point out there is no solid scientific evidence of a God.  While there may be some substance to their viewpoint, they do not come forward with the irrefutable evidence that there is no God.  The best they can say is gibberish statements like this ‘Eventually we will have the scientific knowledge to physically prove this’.If the non-existence of God cannot be proven than the God question remains open and cannot be ruled out as some have tried to do.  All Ben Stein is saying is that the creation question should be open to all possibities, not which is not unreasonable in science terms or any other.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

rbb: How old do you believe the Earth is?  Do you believe what the scientists say?  Why do you believe that?  Do you have any way of verifying it for yourself, or is it based on faith?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I read, at one time , that the greatest minds on this planet taught the fact that this world was flat. Need I say more about glorious science.

How old do you believe the Earth is?  Do you believe what the scientists say?  Why do you believe that?  Do you have any way of verifying it for yourself, or is it based on faith?

Robert108: Perfect response! I wish I had used that approach. Now let us wait for him to detail how he investigated the matter for himself, rather than just accept by faith the dogma of certain scientists!

Dougee: You are not alone in your faith here! There are many of us that believe as you do!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Billion r, billions.
4b, 10b?
I don’t know.

And yes, I believe the ongoing scientific discoveries and no I have not verified it myself.
Speed of light, carbon decay, and iridium spikes…you know the drill. What’s piqued my interest recently is panspermia and what Mancinelli and Rothschild are positing.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

I think the universe is as old as God wants it to be.

Who invented time?  After all, if you’re talking about how old something is, then the definition of time is of utmost importance, isn’t it?  Do you believe everything the scientists tell you?

BTW, I applaud your blind faith in science.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Has Godot been there yet, r?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Don’t bogther trying to get answers or a debate RBB, they are not interested in honest debate, they are only interested in attacking anyone not agreeing with their conservative beliefs. I won’t anymore and I certainly won’t respond to them. Ask Wolf among others, these guys are not nice people.

And honestly Dougee, drop your balls already.  I merely said “wow”. 

I happen to be a man of faith, and in my faith, I believe when the bible said 7 days he was talking about his understanding of time, as it was merely a mans interpretation of gods words anyway.

So you believe one thing, I believe another.  I didn’t attack you.  Calm down.  You are acting like Proof.

Has Godot been there yet, r?

I applaud your blind faith, rbb.

H: rbb has just admitted he knows nothing about the age of the universe; he simply has faith in what certain people tell him about the subject.  In order to debate, one must have some knowledge.

What do you know about the age of the universe?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Who invented time?  After all, if you’re talking about how old something is, then the definition of time is of utmost importance, isn’t it?

Exactly, r108, the time to which we measure everything is based on the earths rotation upon itself and around the sun so it’s really limited to our solar system.  Ok, some will argue that we are only using our concept of time as a reference but that doesn’t answer how time evolve after t=0, the instant that the universe began (the so-called Big Bang).

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

What do you know about the age of the universe?

I know what I know today based on the best science data in hand.  But I believe what I believe based on my faith.

I know what I know today based on the best science data in hand.

Unless you developed that information yourself, you know nothing; you only believe what others tell you.  What’s your direct perception of the age of the universe?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

dd: Exactly; or as the Zen guys say: “Show me your face before you were born.”

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

It seems to me one of the many areas where darwinism goes wrong is looking at the assembly line as proof of naturalism.  It’s kind of like walking into Ford manufacturing and observing the automation of the assembly line and ignoring the active intelligence providing that information which directs the automation.  Similarly darwinism ignores the intelligence evidenced by the information replete in the assembly line of life.

Similarly darwinism ignores the intelligence evidenced by the information replete in the assembly line of life.

Absolutely, hg, the evidence is everywhere from the smallest particle to the largest cosmic body that there is no way that any of this could have happened by random chance (unless of course it was God who rolled the dice).  Additionally, I as an engineer would be out of a job if things could manufacture and assemble themselves without my efforts.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

And honestly Dougee, drop your balls already.  I merely said “wow”. 

Hannitized, I said that in my previous post because I have heard people begin with saying that and then launch into vile personal attacks.  If you weren’t going to go there then I apologize.

I happen to be a man of faith, and in my faith, I believe when the bible said 7 days he was talking about his understanding of time, as it was merely a mans interpretation of gods words anyway.

The reason I believe the earth was created in 7 days as we know them now to be is because of Genesis 1:3-5.  Verse 5 says “God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day.”

This is why I believe it was 7 standard days.  A day was daylight and nighttime.  I personally believe the Bible is literal truth.  I just personally don’t understand why an individual would be a part of a religion if they didn’t believe that what the religion believed was true.  But that’s just me.  I’m kinda passionate about this issue. 

I know I don’t understand everything about how creationism happened but I believe the Bible when it says that God lets everything be known in His own time.  I just have faith that this is truth.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

this thread lays bare huge amounts of idiocy, prejudice, and just plain error. not only do a majority of the people commenting herein plainly not understand the theory of evolution and the theory of natural selection, they grossly misunderstand science. this much is clear. induction, the method by which we can determine the future or the past… is a method of reasoning that cannot be justified. we are not warranted in holding that the laws of nature remain uniform because that would involve induction as well and the result would be circular. nonetheless, it is not fatal. its merely the difference between 100% certainty, which we only get with tautologies and geometry, and 99.9999999999999% certainty. if you can couch God, creation, and all the other bullshit all you science haters are spewing, in .000000000000001% probability… so be it. just bear in mind that you really don’t have shit for an argument.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

This is why I believe it was 7 standard days.

This is what happens w/o science. Everything is a fucking miracle. Ain’t it just amazing Dougee, that you can move around without being plugged into a power outlet? Must be a effing miracle, eh? God’s work for sure!

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Here is Sparkie again gracing us with his colossal ignorance.  Sparkie, like I have said earlier.  I have no problem with you believing in evolution but you obviously can’t cope with the fact that some people believe in God.  Is that what your elitist academia breads, contempt for disagreement?

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

colossal ignorance?

I just have faith that this is truth.

bring a fucking argument. then talk shit.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

breads? tasty breads?

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Maybe the concept of “God” is nothing more than an evolution of the brain.

Chance or Creation, they’re both out-there theories. Nothing is obvious about this subject, despite what some of the faithful insist.

what’s wrong with no big bang and no God? what is it about us that needs a beginning and an end?

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

what’s wrong with no big bang and no God? what is it about us that needs a beginning and an end?

There’s nothing at all wrong with that concept, Sparkie…for you.  Anything more is obviously beyond your ability to comprehend.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

r108
tart. unlike you i do not claim that my ability to comprehend has purchase on any eternal truths.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

breads? tasty breads?

I meant to type breed.  I didn’t know typos would offend you.

bring a fucking argument. then talk shit.

Why should I argue to you to prove what I believe?  I am secure in my faith in God and am not obligated to prove shit to you.  You just have a problem with me believing in God.  Get over it.

Companies shouldn’t go to bed with the government because the government has herpes.  You can try your whole life but you’ll never get away from that one night.

To all my conservative friends out there:

I am a scientist (proud of it, too; it was a lot of work) and also a non-believer.

I can’t attach the moniker “athiest” because I grew up in a christian home and some ideologies attached to you when young, linger. So I would say that over time I lost my faith. There are too many ‘things’ out there that I have a hard time believing a ‘just’ God would allow.

However that may be, I do find large differences in vast numbers of religions and believe strongly that if the whole world converted to Christianity, in its modern form, we would be the better for it.

I believe in some parts of the theory of Darwinism and find no area in which Intelligent Design (what little I know of it) would conflict with that belief. I would also sooner accept I.D. than I would the theory of the Big Bang.

R108 is existentially correct if that is the proper term. Faith exists everywhere in all forms and in all manners and matters. When I wrote my thesis on the degradation of cell surface receptors for idiopathic Parkinson’s Syndrome, I spent an inordinate amount of time with mechanisms that were only indirectly related to my research. I did so because I knew that in defense of my thesis I could receive queries as to my methods and the understanding of these would be useful. However, (to my point) no matter how far I inquired and investigated background information it always remained that I needed faith that the previous research was valid.

So I disagree with the statement “…there is no way that any of this could have happened by random chance” as strongly as I do with , “…and science provides us with all the proof that evolution is responsible for the existence of man.”

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another…it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
                                  Saint-Exupéry

Similarly darwinism ignores the intelligence
evidenced by the information replete in the assembly line of life.

This is the basic flaw of western science.  Real knowledge is knowing the origin of things, of seeking that one thing that gives birth to everything else, so that knowing that one thing, you can know everything, if you choose to do that.
Western science looks at the process at some point in its flow, then tries to reason backward to figure out how it all works, and then tries to reason forward to figure out how it will be in the future.
Without knowing the original cause, it’s all just guesswork, with constant adjustments as more and more information is found.
On the other hand, a very respected scientist once said:  “God doesn’t play dice with the universe.”(Al Einstein).
The assumption of randomness and chance prevents scientists from ever discovering the Truth.
The assumption of Unity gives the possibility of knowing the Truth.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

what’s wrong with no big bang and no God? what is it about us that needs a beginning and an end?

Nothing, as far as I am concerned.  I choose to believe that there was a hand behind all the science that we are discovering and re-discovering.

I maybe wrong, but at least I don’t cut the science part out of my faith.  Things have to happen in some way, it just doesn’t happen.  There is a mechanism behind creation in my mind.  But, that’s just me.

unlike you i do not claim that my ability to comprehend has purchase on any eternal truths.

I make no such claim; I know what I know, and I know that I don’t know everything, unlike you, who has the arrogance of ignorance.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Kenny: Good points, all!

Argument Ad Nauseam (I’m also a bit guilty of this one here)

Reducto Ad Absurdum.

Reducing your opponents arguments to the absurd.

All of my claims are 100% accurate. Feel free to debate me on them instead of Robert saying he agrees with me, Ok, pumpkin?

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Unless you developed that information yourself, you know nothing; you only believe what others tell you. 

By that standard anyone who went to college, knows nothing.  In fact, half the doctors don’t really know anything since half of what they learned or more is transfered knowledge.

You are making a technical point that is nothing more than a distinction without a difference.

LDS: 

To all my conservative friends out there, I am a scientist…

Aha!  I knew  it! 

.... Not just another pretty face. 

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.