Say Anything Blog

RICE FOR OBAMA!

I respect her view which is somewhat personal.  Some Irish peoples might have a different perspective as well as the penal colonies of Georgia and some other states.  Certainly others were brought here in chains, but it is true that slavery was prevalent in the world back then.  Not now.  Things sometimes change.  Now we have perpetual gangs and internal slavery.

Communism is evil

Chief RZ: You may be blurring the line between two different issues: The legitimate concerns expressed by thoughtful African-Americans like Condaleeza Rice about the shameful history of black slavery in America, and the criminal, thug element now to be found in every corner of this nation.

Slavery may have been prevelant in the 18th Century, but it was the subject of agonizing and bitter conflict between the patriot Framers in Philadelphia. Most of them knew it was evil, some defended it on economic grounds, leading to the shameful 3/5th clause.

Not our finest moment.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Chief: 

but it is true that slavery was prevalent in the world back then.  Not now.  Things sometimes change.  Now we have perpetual gangs and internal slavery.

I wish others could better understand what you were saying, I agree with you!

It is always difficult to relate modern social values-mores to those of previous generations. Who feels good today about slavery, how Native-Americans were treated, how Japanese-Americans among many others were treated, but the attitudes of the times dictated public policy then as it does today? On the other hand, we seem to have wholly accepted the more paternal soft slavery to the welfare state and public dole of minorities as acts of national compassion. Maybe a hundred years from now we will be condemning this newer form of slavery, or as I suspect with the Nanny-America Democrat Party most Americans by then will be enslaved to the state.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Both of you have good points.  First, I was not glossing over past bad things, but we need to keep in perspective and contrast to the Roman slaves, the Communist slaves, the African slaves that still exist now and the virtual slavery that exists in the community so to speak.  The 3/5ths compromise was about representation.  It did acknowledge that slaves were both property and people which for that time was pretty visionary.  The other point is:  How long are these people going to play the victim game.  There are many who could drag up slavery from the USSR who came here, who swam in 1957, who came here with just the clothes on their backs.  They learned English, they followed laws, they worked and still do today.  They marry, have children and teach them to follow the laws of this free country.  Many do not.

Communism is evil

Most of them knew it was evil, some defended it on economic grounds, leading to the shameful 3/5th clause.

Basic misunderstanding there.  The “Free” North didn’t want to count the slaves at all, because it would give the South greater representation in govt.  The “Slave” South(a wrongful generalization, btw, since only a majority of Southerners owned and used slaves) wanted the slaves counted as full citizens for the purpose of representation.  In other words, the 3/5 rule wasn’t “shameful” at all, but a compromise between the slaveowners and the rest of the country; it didn’t speak to the personhood of the slaves, but was done strictly for political purposes.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

SLAVERY? GET OVER IT!! The same morons who moan all the time about the poor black race and slavery are the ones who blame all their problems on it. ITS OVER. Im suprised she didnt go a step lower and ask for repirations. Blacks get the same if not more opportunities in this country than whites due the joke called affirmative action. The only real racism in this country against blacks is against the thug wanna be gangsters who keep their own race down with black on black violence. Any respectable african american in this country can get just as far as any respectable white. At what point will they shut up, bringing up the issue constantly and beating the dead horse of their past doesnt help other races treat them like equals. Does Condi not think she has been given the american dream?? Obama is probably going to be the next president does that not tell you how far past this issue we are?

Dustin.  I have commented here before.  This is also about class.  Miss Rice has maintained classy behavior.  Yes, their gangsters are now their masters and the community in many cases is being terrorized.  They need to break free and fight these people just like the patriots did at Lexington and Concord.

Communism is evil

Robert108:  Thomas Jefferson, in his own words, called the 3/5th clause “shameful”.  In effect, the clause ‘legitimzed’ slavery on constitutional grounds which is exactly what the south hoped for.

That it was inserted for political purposes - and what part of the document wasn’t? - is irrelevant. It must still be difficult for thoughtful black Americans to explain to their children why this nation, at one time, equated them as worth 3/5th of a white man.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

In effect, the clause ‘legitimzed’ slavery on
constitutional grounds which is exactly what the south hoped for.

I repeat, the South wanted 5/5, the North wanted zero, so the 3/5 was a political compromise for representation purposes, and was not a statement of “worth” in any way.  You repeat the current race-card politics of the lefties.
Being from the South, TJ’s “shameful” comment was probably about not counting the slaves as full persons for representation purposes.  He owned slaves, you know.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

No, Robert108: He was refering to slavery itself, which explains why he released his. You blithely overlook the southern concern for their ‘peculiar institution’; an agrarian, plantation economy dependent on slave-labor.

Yes, they would have loved to count slaves as citizens for the first enumeration, but their chief concern was economic.

You tend to want to win all debates. This won’t be one of them.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

You blithely overlook the southern concern for their ‘peculiar institution’; an agrarian, plantation economy dependent on slave-labor.

Wrong again.  Once again, the 3/5 rule was about political representation.  It has nothing whatsoever to do with economics or the shame of slavery, which are realities that aren’t germane to this issue.  Once again, you repeat the race-card lies about “worth”, which are simply untrue.
I don’t know why you think the 3/5 rule had any economic significance, but it didn’t.  Once again, representation in the political process.  The North wanted zero, the South wanted 100%, purely for political purposes in both cases.  You can look it up.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

pp: BTW, this isn’t a debate; it’s a matter of history.
You may choose to make an inaccurate interpretation, but that doesn’t change the truth.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Does Condi not think she has been given the american dream??

She clearly does and says so in the article.

There’s a difference between recognizing the past and its impact on us and bemoaning it and blaming every bad thing that happens on it.

She was doing the first, not the latter of the two. And showed some class while she was at it.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Robert108:  This is a debate about the history of slavery in our nation and the truth has not changed.  Thomas Jefferson and other patriots abhorred the idea of legitimizing slavery in the constitution. You know that as well as I do.  Voluminous sources are out there for your enlightenment.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Thomas Jefferson and other patriots
abhorred the idea of legitimizing slavery in the constitution.

The 3/5 rule didn’t do that.  Once again, you parrot the race-card playing propaganda.  It was for the purpose of determining the State population, which determined the number of representatives in the House, and for the Electoral College.  It didn’t make slavery any more legitimate than it was before.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Once again you parrot the race-playing card propaganda.

Tell me, robert108, are you incapable of conducting a discussion without inserting personal affronts?

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said yesterday that the United States still has trouble dealing with race because of a national “birth defect” that denied black Americans the opportunities given to whites at the country’s very founding.

At this point im wondering why all the Republihypocrites aren’t whining about Condeleezas hateful speech about America?

A birth defect?  How can you say she loves this country if she thinks our founding fathers were handicapped in their thinking?

This Blame America First rhetoric is something you expect from thoughtful, educated people such as Liberals, not Republicans.

As a result, Miss Rice told editors and reporters at The Washington Times, “descendants of slaves did not get much of a head start, and I think you continue to see some of the effects of that.”

Ah yes, it’s still “Whiteys” fault.  Right Rob and Pilsbury?  Because so many poor white men owned slaves.  Right Pilgrim?

Why aren’t you crying about here statements that take away the personal responsibility of blacks today?

Oh wait, some of you are being true to your principles (see Dustin)

Others, well, let’s just say that they are being less than honest.

“That particular birth defect makes it hard for us to confront it, hard for us to talk about it, and hard for us to realize that it has continuing relevance for who we are today,” she said.

Continuing relevance?  Relevance?  You don’t say?  So then, you mean it’s OK to talk about how slavery impacts blacks today?  Yes…..wow.

That sure is a departure from the typical Republican meme’s.

Good thing she is following Obama’s lead.  Otherwise I doubt she would have addressed this at all.

Now we know what Condoleeza REALLY thinks about race in America.  It’s almost like she didnt think of it at all.  Or, at least until Obama and his church brought it to the forefront of discussion.

Thank you Wright.

Tell me, robert108, are you incapable of conducting a discussion without inserting personal affronts?

You mean like the erroneous generalization you just made?  Actually, I thought you just didn’t know any better, being a product of public schools, etc.
And, you are repeating the race-card playing propaganda.  The 3/5 rule neither “legitimized slavery” nor was it a statement about personal worth.  Those two canards are part and parcel of race-card playing propaganda.  If you have a personal investment in either of those two propaganda statements, I understand why you take my refuting them as an affront, but that is a consequence of your choice.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

If Democrats are smart, they are going to T off on this blatant flip-flopping from Republicans and acknowledge that if it wasn’t for Obama and his church, this discussion would continue to be ignored by the so called black leaders in this country.

I said, black leaders in this country, who coincidentally fail to address the problems blacks continue to face today.

Condamneesia?  I think I see why he used that word now.  Up until this moment, she would not have said a word.

Watching the conservatives squirm over this is going to be interesting.

It may have taken a few silly statements from a Pastor such as Wright to get this discussion going, but at least the discussion is being had.

Now, when blacks claim they are facing troubles due to slaver from the past.  We can point the finger straight at Condi.  Right Pligrim?

Robert 108: It’s been my experience that when people run out of valid arguments, they resort to effrontery.

once again you parrot…

thought you didn’t know any better

being a product of public schools, etc

Speaks volumes about your lack of serious evidence and your misunderstanding of basic constitutional history, doesn’t it?

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Hannitized:

Your intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds. If a liberal were to have said the same thing you’d be falling all over yourself to justify it.

She wasn’t trying to make excuses. She was discussing the issue. There’s a difference.

Read the article and then answer your own question:

Now, when blacks claim they are facing troubles due to slaver from the past.  We can point the finger straight at Condi.  Right Pligrim?

Wrong, hannitized.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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pp: You’re just wrong, that’s all, and now you’re trying to invalidate my truth with “style” complaints.  Won’t work.  Even though Wiki isn’t the best source in general, they got it right on the 3/5 rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-fifths_compromise

It is you who have faulty understanding here.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

pp: I think you got the personal stuff going when you began a sentence with “You blithely ignore…” when you went off-topic.  What goes around comes around.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Hannitized:  Conservatives aren’t going to squirm over this at all.  We are proud of African-Americans like Rice, Powell, Thomas, and yes, Obama.

Ms. Rice is a brilliant, highly-educated woman who can reflect on the tragedy of slavery in the history of our country without race-baiting.

No “God damn America”, “KKK-USA”, “Chickens come home to roost” from her.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Your intellectual dishonesty knows no bounds. If a liberal were to have said the same thing you’d be falling all over yourself to justify it.

Pilgrim,

Do you live in some alternate universe where sarcasm is now literal, white is black and black is white?

Because I am quite certain that at no point do “I” criticize her, but instead, I am criticizing you for being intellectually dishonest/hypocritical.

What you just proved, was that she is making Liberal statements, in response to Obama having already addressed them, in a straight forward way.

The only problem for Condamneesia is that she is a day late and dollar short.

Wrong, hannitized.

Oh it’s THAT simple, eh Pilgrim? 

Why don’t you explain to me then, how a black person cant say they are still struggling in todays world because were still suffering consequences from slavery in the past, and not point to Condileeza to justify his statements?

You cant, you wont and thank you for ignoring this comment.

Hannitized: I don’t believe, as best I can recall, that either Rob or anyone else suggested that slavery did not occur in our past or that it has no role whatsoever in the lives of their descendents today. The point is that wallowing in the stye of our racist past, blaming all the ills of poor people of color on racism today is only crippling people of color in their appropriating the fullness of the American dream.

Further, Obama did not suffer racism, he did fully participate in the American dream and gained ample rewards in the promise that is America by hard work and not accepting the color of his skin as a barrier in his life. So, when he raises the question of race, he would appear to be doing so solely out of a lust for power and position as stirring up feelings of racism is a sure vote getter among people of color.

We can all talk about color, we can all appreciate Rice speaking out about the last vestiges of our racist past still impacting some lives, especially among older people of color; but there is absolutely no racial barrier today for anyone seeking to prosper in this land, except as they are told by disingenuous leaders among people of color that they are not poor because of laziness, lack of drive or addiction to the welfare state, but because whitey wants to keep them down due to the color of their skin. These people, like you, are only too happy to stir up the now nearly cold embers of our long ago racist past for selfish reasons, it is the politics of hate, getting people of color to hate whitey and vote for a person of color no matter how it might hurt the country, take money away from bad old successful whitey and at last people of color will be happy, especially if they can drag hard working people down in the gutter.

Democrats, including Obama see many reasons for keeping people of color poor and dissatisfied with their lives. They choose just to throw money at them, making them dependent upon their daily bread to Democrats. Conservatives prefer to give everyone the tools necessary to succeed on their own, to supply their own food and not depend upon anyone or anything but their own hard work and sense of personal responsibility. Democrats through preferences tell people of color you cannot succeed without your Democrat Massah’s caring for you, we conservatives believe everyone, no matter their color are able to seize the full rewards of the American dream if government just gets the hell out of the way and encourages them to succeed.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

robert108:  So, armed with Wiki as your weighty evidence, you’re going to argue that 600,000 Americans perished in the Civil War over voter apportionments? I don’t think so.

BTW:  “Blithely ignore” is a comment on your procedure, not your person, while “being a product of public schools” is a comment on my person. An odd one at that, since Ronald reagan was a public school product, while John Kerry, Teddy kennedy and Ruth Bader Ginsberg were not.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

So, armed with Wiki as your weighty evidence, you’re going to argue that 600,000 Americans perished in the Civil War over voter apportionments? I don’t think so.

Robert108, respectfully, I want to hear the answer to that proposition as well! I cannot believe apportionment had much to do with it either.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

robert108:  So, armed with Wiki as your weighty evidence, you’re going to argue that 600,000 Americans perished in the Civil War over voter apportionments?

I said nothing of the kind.  You just made that up, so maybe you can explain that idiotic statement you made.  If you think the Civil War was fought over the 3/5 rule, you are all alone on that.  In fact, it was fought over the Tenth Amendment, but most race-card players claim it was fought over slavery.  Oh well.
BTW, I didn’t “blithely ignore” anything, so your feeble attempt at personal attack fell flat there.

I only used Wiki because it was easy to find; I have known the truth about the 3/5 rule since I was in grade school.  RR went to public school before PC propaganda indoctrination started there.  Duh.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert108 and Pparets: This is a very good debate about the cause of the Civil War, but having been there several times and perhaps on occasion being at fault in anger getting involved in a debate, I don’t think either one of you are trying to insult the other person. So, please leave those feelings aside and stick with the cause of the Civil War, it is educational and constructive. You both have a lot to add to the discussion!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

RR went to public school before PC propaganda indoctrination started there.

So did I.  Duh.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Quit the childish-ass bickering about off topic issues and remember we’re talking about a modern official condemning the forefathers of this country and blaming problems of blacks on an issue that was settled over a century ago.

So did I. Duh.

If you knew that, why did you mention him as a defense, then?  You were being dishonest.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Further, Obama did not suffer racism, he did fully participate in the American dream and gained ample rewards in the promise that is America by hard work and not accepting the color of his skin as a barrier in his life. So, when he raises the question of race, he would appear to be doing so solely out of a lust for power

Give me a break.

So you can say for certain, that he doesn’t do it out of a desire to help the black community to which he is certain he is a part of?

Of course you can’t because you don’t know him or any of his family.  I do.

It is of no surprise to me that you would debase his honest concern for blacks in America.  You do this because you can not accept that he has not turned his back on the black community as has Rice.

Rice is the one speaking out, NOW, much later than Obama and she has not been the one putting herself in the black community to understand it.  Obama has.

Now that she is possibly seeking a VP spot, she comes out and says something about race…..NOW?  Some 8 years later as a black leader in this country.

And you have the gaul to tell me that Barack is only talking about race because he craves power?  Give me a break.

Nobody is buying that transparent excuse.

We can all talk about color, we can all appreciate Rice speaking out about the last vestiges of our racist past still impacting some lives, especially among older people of color; but there is absolutely no racial barrier today for anyone seeking to prosper in this land, except as they are told by disingenuous leaders among people of color that they are not poor because of laziness, lack of drive or addiction to the welfare state, but because whitey wants to keep them down due to the color of their skin.

So, our racist past still impacting some lives, GOT IT.

So here is the question for you then Neiman.  Don’t you think this is in direct contrast to the Conservative position, yes or no?

These people, like you, are only too happy to stir up the now nearly cold embers of our long ago racist past for selfish reasons, it is the politics of hate, getting people of color to hate whitey and vote for a person of color no matter how it might hurt the country,

Like me?  You just described Condi, not me you spin-miester.  I am not going to be insulted by your false accusations, because I take too much pleasure pointing out your illogical conclusions and hypocrisies.

Democrats, including Obama see many reasons for keeping people of color poor and dissatisfied with their lives.

Hahaha.  Yeah, that has been his plank for years.  That’s why he has so much of the support of the country behind him.

Keep lying to yourself Nieman.  It’s clear you don’t have a concept of what Obamas church stands for.  It is FAR, FAR, FAR more conservative than you think.

Conservatives prefer to give everyone the tools necessary to succeed on their own, to supply their own food and not depend upon anyone or anything but their own hard work and sense of personal responsibility. Democrats through preferences tell people of color you cannot succeed without your Democrat Massah’s caring for you, we conservatives believe everyone, no matter their color are able to seize the full rewards of the American dream if government just gets the hell out of the way and encourages them to succeed.

Again, its clear you have no idea what Trinity stands for, you only know what you limit yourself to knowing.

You can pat yourself on the back and beat others over the head if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, but your hyperbole and mischaracterizations suit only the demented pictures of enemies in your head, not the real opponents in next to you in reality.

Quit the childish-ass bickering about off topic issues and remember we’re talking about a modern official condemning the forefathers of this country and blaming problems of blacks on an issue that was settled over a century ago

.

Exactly, exactly.  The one true conservative speaks.

A good conservative would argue that “at the time” it was culturally acceptable to have slaves.

Our founding fathers had no understanding that what they were doing was wrong.  It wasn’t until later, that they figured it out.

Condamneesia is belittling the founding fathers, and you guys are praising her.  She is also changing history by saying that blacks helped in the founding of this country.

How many of you believe that to be true?

“It’s very interesting when you think about it, the slaves who left here to go to America, because of their steadfast and their religion and their belief in freedom, helped change America.”

bush
Dakar, Senegal
9/8/03

“Another example would be the Dred Scott case, which is where judges, years ago, said that the Constitution allowed slavery because of personal property rights. That’s a personal opinion. That’s not what the constitution says. The constitution of the United States says we’re all — you know, it doesn’t say that. It doesn’t speak to the equality of America.”

George W. Bush
Oct. 8, 2004

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Hannitized that needs desperately to be sterlized:

I don’t now why I or anyone else here tries to discuss anything substantive with you. You are like a little child yelling to the top of your lung power, “I did not! They did it!” No rational replies, just nonsensical non-sequitors, as your conclusions never follow in any rational logical way the comments made by others on which your answers are based.

What did I lie about? I want the exact lie and the objective, documented facts that I lied or shut your pie hole!

So you can say for certain, that he doesn’t do it out of a desire to help the black community to which he is certain he is a part of?  Of course you can’t because you don’t know him or any of his family.  I do.

Of course I cannot say I am absolutely certain, neither can you in the opposite direction. But, why don’t you show us, with actual documented facts this time, how he gave money to and personally worked to help the black community before he ran for public office. Support out of political convenience doesn’t count!

It’s clear you don’t have a concept of what Obama’s church stands for.  It is FAR, FAR, FAR more conservative than you think.

Well we know its pastor, their spiritual leader, taught hatred for America, for Jews and for white people. Those things are part of the public record. But, I’ll give you a break, please give us documented teachings or sermons wherein he used words supportive of America, spoke well of white people and Jews and was otherwise teaching things differently that the words we have on the record.

Since you know Osamabama so well, please tell us how close your personal relationship is with him, how often you were with him in Pastor Wright’s services and how often you were privy to Wrights private counsel etcetera, so we might believe you really know him. Okay?

You are not Obama, you have have failed miserably to dazzle us with any brilliance, so now your only resort is to try and befuddle us without your constant, inane bullshit! You are failing!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman,

Since you know Obama so well, please tell us how close your personal relationship is with him, how often you were with him in Pastor Wright’s services and how often you were privy to Wrights private counsel etcetera, so we might believe you really know him. Okay?

Your are full of sheet as usual.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

RBB: You are wholly irrelevant in any discussion at SA! You are wholly irrelevant to the world in which you live!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

But I still love you Neiman, do you love me?

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

robert108: 

dishonest

There you go again…..

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Wait a minute.

Neiman, cutting/pasting a question - you yourself posed - back to you is wholly irrelevant?

Not answering your own question and calling me irrelevant is the cowards’ way out of not answering a fair question.

Good luck to you Neiman.
I pity you and will pray for your salvation.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Neiman.  Well summarized.  Yes, it was economic, over the 10th and egos were involved as well.  I went back and read the entire Washington Times article.
This seems to have been overlooked:

Miss Rice also said that what “attracted” her to candidate George W. Bush during the 2000 presidential campaign was not foreign policy, but his “no child left behind” initiative, which she said gave equal opportunities to black and white students.

The equal access to education, which is being thrown away (my emphasis and construct) by shall we say, “those descendants of slavery.”  There is no excuse for anyone now to say that they do not have an equal opportunity, nor need any more extra help.

Communism is evil

You are like a little child yelling to the top of your lung power, “I did not! They did it!” No rational replies, just nonsensical non-sequitors, as your conclusions never follow in any rational logical way the comments made by others on which your answers are based.

Ad hominem will get you everywhere!  Because you know, they are so substantive and mature.  I ignored your first character assassination attempt on me, and now your pattern is repeated again.  You aren’t here to debate with people Nieman, you are here to espouse your views as a response, not as any counter point.  It’s lame.

Care to point out where I did not answer your question and only offered insults?  No, you cant because I didn’t.

What did I lie about? I want the exact lie and the objective, documented facts that I lied or shut your pie hole!

Well, first you lied when you claimed I was the type of person who plays the race card:

“they are told by disingenuous leaders among people of color that they are not poor because of laziness, lack of drive or addiction to the welfare state, but because whitey wants to keep them down due to the color of their skin. These people, like you, are only too happy to stir up the now nearly cold embers of our long ago racist past for selfish reasons, it is the politics of hate, getting people of color to hate whitey and vote for a person of color no matter how it might hurt the country, “

That, I would say, is a pretty good lie.  Not only is it a lie, it is a tired right wing meme that doesn’t correctly represent the commitment to the black community the Democrats demonstrate.  Nothing I can say can persuade you to part from your self deluded point of view on the matter.

But, going back to your original, stupid question, I assume that you are referring to the comment where I said “you are lying to yourself”.  That of course is an expression.  It’s an expression that characterizes how you dishonestly look at your political opponents.  It’s an expression that represents how you dishonestly mischaracterize Trinity.  Is that a rational reply?  I think so.

Of course I cannot say I am absolutely certain, neither can you in the opposite direction. But, why don’t you show us, with actual documented facts this time, how he gave money to and personally worked to help the black community before he ran for public office. Support out of political convenience doesn’t count!

Neiman.  You have to be joking.

So the only way Obama can demonstrate to you he is committed to helping the black community is to personally rescue it by donating financial aid???  And here is where the illogical and deceitful accusations you throw at Obama are exposed.

First you whine that Democrats give hand outs to to blacks, thus perpetuating keeping them dependent.  Then, when Obama, who is for personal responsibility, doesn’t give hand outs you complain he is not really for the black community.

Do you see what you are doing?  You are essentially pigeon holing him to your warped view of democrats, then chastise him for not fitting your false suit.  THAT is why I said what I said.

My points are only to poignant for you to understand.  Probably because I don’t spell them out for your subtle mind.

Hannitized:

You cant, you wont and thank you for ignoring this comment.

You’re welcome, but don’t make too much of it. Ignoring you is a pleasure, not a chore.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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The equal access to education, which is being thrown away (my emphasis and construct) by shall we say, “those descendants of slavery.” There is no excuse for anyone now to say that they do not have an equal opportunity, nor need any more extra help.

Chief,

You essentially just proclaimed that slaver is now no longer an issue….as of 2001.

That doesn’t quite remove any concerns black people have to day who went to school in the 50s, 60, 70s, 80, 90s.  If you know whatumsayin?

What did I lie about? I want the exact lie and the objective, documented facts that I lied or shut your pie hole!

Well, first you lied when you claimed I was the type of person who plays the race card:

This is why debate you you is an exercise in futility, like debating a ADD child: (a) You did not offer any quotation by me on the subject. You did not document any lie, you just claimed I charged you with something and I lied. (b) To suggest that you would play the race card is to interpret your remarks and offer a personal opinion on your motives and character. You may disagree with what I say and believe, but it is hardly by any description of or reasonable definition of a lie. (c) I notice you failed to talk about your close, personal relationship with Osamabama, why? (d) In this and your other responses you argue against yourself, almost never against the person making the comments. You simply put an argument in our mouths, pretend to overcome it with false logic and think yourself wise and victorious.

I did not make Obama have a 20-year intimate relationship with an American hating, Jew and white hating, Muslim terrorist loving so-called Christian minister. I didn’t force him to rely upon this racist, or have him marry Barak and Michelle or baptize his children. No, Osamabama made those choices and now he must win or lose based on his personal choices and because you havew to know he is at the least somewhat guilty of a bad decision in staying with Wright, it seems to be eating you up inside. If you want to blame someone for this problem, it is isn’t me, Rob, or even Wright, it is Osamabama’s responsibility, he made the choice to admire and seek counsel from what appears to be a dispicable character, even Osamabama now admits that to be true.

The problem now is this: Since Obama says that he disagrees with Wright and rejects those beliefs, he and he alone must convince the country that for 20 years either he was either a disinterested fool (didn’t pay any attention), an ignorant ass (didn’t understand what Wright was saying) or a calculating politician that rejects now what he embraced then; and he must to some degree embrace at least some of those beliefs even today as it is doubtful that he is able to turn his back completely on 20 years of indoctrination into racial, anti-American and pro-Muslim terrorist dogma. I don’t think he can! He will fail completely when even his most ardent worshippers, like you, cannot come to terms with Wright’s extremist beliefs and Obama’s acceptance of many of them, at least for many years.

It would all sound more credible if you had agreed tghat Wright has expressed some very unseemly, extremists views in his ministry which should be rejected, Obama was at least tardy in not leaving that ministry and exposing himself, his wife and children to those teachings no matter how infrequent, and that Oabam must convince people that as POTUS none of his policies or actions would reflect any of Wright’s extremist views, not one iota. Until then, you have the appearance of an unthinking zealot and Obama does not seem to have understood his errors in this affair. In my opinion!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Hannitized.  No.  Those were her words why she joined the 2000 campaign.  NCLB is a federal initiative.  We integrated in 1970.  No one entering school after that date has an excuse.

Communism is evil

Discussing the issue - which is an historical fact and one that can’t and shouldn’t be ignored - and accusing or blaming are two entirely different things.

The article also presented her point of view this way:

On the one hand, she said, race in the U.S. “continues to have effects” on public discussions and “the deepest thoughts that people hold.” On the other, “enormous progress” has been made, which allowed her to become the nation’s chief diplomat.

How in the name of literacy can you criticize that?

The race pimps, the Wrights and the Jacksons and the Sharptons and the Farakhans, can’t hold a candle to this woman. She wasn’t whining or using the issue to her benefit.

pparets nailed it:

Ms. Rice is a brilliant, highly-educated woman who can reflect on the tragedy of slavery in the history of our country without race-baiting.

No “God damn America”, “KKK-USA”, “Chickens come home to roost” from her.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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. But, I’ll give you a break, please give us documented teachings or sermons wherein he used words supportive of America, spoke well of white people and Jews and was otherwise teaching things differently that the words we have on the record.

Interesting how you change the argument from blacks being affected by our history of slavery to racism.  Way to change the subject.  Sneaky, but not sly.  Youre busted.

Since you know Osamabama so well, please tell us how close your personal relationship is with him, how often you were with him in Pastor Wright’s services and how often you were privy to Wrights private counsel etcetera, so we might believe you really know him. Okay?

As stated before, I know his sister very well.  I dated their hanai sister.  Her family and Obama’s/Sotoro’s were close family friends.  Since before he decided to run for president I have been close friends with Maya.  I go to dinner with her and her family and over time we finally talked about her brother, a subject she saves for trusted individuals.  Over long periods of at length discussions I get a clear picture.  I am also working on his campaign here in Hawaii.  I don’t need to go into too much detail here, but there is no racism in this familiy and there certainly is no history of victimhood that was taught to him or his sister.

Here’s what you fail to recognize about the Senator:

1) Senator Obama explicitly acknowledges that welfare policies have likely contributed to the erosion of black families.

2) Senator Obama acknowledges and praises how many men and women have over come the odds how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like him who have come after him.

3) Senator Obama emphasizes that this path means embracing the burdens of our past, without becoming victims of their past, and it means taking full responsibility for our lives by demanding more from our fathers and spending more time with our children and reading to them and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism.  They must also believe that they can write their own destiny.

You are not Obama, you have have failed miserably to dazzle us with any brilliance, so now your only resort is to try and befuddle us without your constant, inane bullshit! You are failing!

You are an idiot who has to create a character in order to tear it down.  I have proved it and you are going no where.  Fast.

Hannitized.  I believe what you just wrote above.  This post is about Miss Rice’s words about race in America based on the past which included slavery.  I oppose Mr. Obama based on his votes in the Senate.  I oppose Mrs. Clinton for the same reason.  I do not fully support Mr. McCain for the same reason(s). 
Did I ask you about the book on Hawaii’ history, To Steal a Kingdom?

Communism is evil

Chief: By implication, since you agreed with H that he was right that I was off the subject of the thread, you are saying that I am the guilty party. Next, very few threads at SA stay on topic and thus the tendency to stray is very common. If you wanted to be fair, since you are accusing me of the infraction, you should go back through all the comments (53) and document who indeed took the discussion off the subject of the thread, rather than accuse others without bothering to check the facts.

I admit to being a bit offended in this matter!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

H: The pretty sophistry you attribute to Obama sounds nice, but one of his mentors(Alinsky) is a Marxist, and another one(Wright) is a practitioner of black liberation theology, which teaches black separatism, that Jesus was black(an historical inaccuracy) and who has engaged in vitriolic race-based hatred of America.
At the very least, to be intellectually honest, you might attempt to deal with those facts, and not just feed us pie-in-the-sky rhetoric.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Hannitized:
For the first time in my recollection in all your many comments at SA, this one above appears to be a bit more rational and direct than we have come to expect from you. Although, your declaring yourself a victor in anything is a bit premature and self-serving, neither of which shock me in the least.

1. While you might have said it elsewhere, this is the first time I knew you were a paid staff member of the Obama campaign in Hawaii. It would have proved enlightening and more honest had that been part of your signature or avatar, in the spirit of honest disclosure.
2. I hope you will understand that just because you know Obama’s sister or other family members, while it may give us all more insights into the family and their thoughts about what he believes, it is still less definitive than a direct relationship with Obama. My sister has impressions of my political beliefs and positions at variance with what I have actually stated and believe, so this may shock the hell out of you, but sisters can be full of shit about what a family member actually believes. Although, that relationship does slightly increase your credibility on what Obama may believe.
3. I would like to see the positions you and sister attribute to Obama that are part of his public record, versus just word of mouth about what someone may think he believes about this or that, not that I think you would be deliberately dishonest to promote Obama’s candidacy, of course. The positions you stated as belonging to Obama do sound very rational and more conservative than one would expect when placed beside his other anti-War, high tax, socialized medicine, and other pro-socialist messages. So, I would appreciate references to the speeches wherein he expressed these views so I can understand their context and prove he actually has these views.

My compliments on your first half-way decent reply to anyone here at SA. I am still waiting for my documented lies against you from my previous comments.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Robert108: Thanks! As usual you find a unique and great way to get at an issue, and stating the extreme views of Obama’s counsellors was direct and to the point.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman: Thanks!  Whatever he may have believed when he lived in Hawaii, and whatever he may or may not have shared with his sister, when he went to Chicago he selected those two for his political mentors, and that says a lot about his inner core, IMO.  My tendency is to think he will govern more like Alinsky and Wright than what his sister may believe about him.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

H:

1) Senator Obama explicitly acknowledges that welfare policies have likely contributed to the erosion of black families.

Then why does he want to continue these same policies?  You can look through the last week’s news for maybe half a dozen examples where he is doing exactly that.

Something doesn’t quite jibe here.

Neiman.  I reviewed my posts on this thread but do not see where I disagreed with you on anything or accused you of straying from the post.  I admit I do but try to do it by way of contrast or putting in perspective.  Carrick, I’m with you on that.  Mr. Obama’s voting record as well as his “shared prosperity”

Communism is evil

I oppose Mr. Obama based on his votes in the Senate.  I oppose Mrs. Clinton for the same reason.  I do not fully support Mr. McCain for the same reason(s). 

And I think your reasons for opposing Obama are fair.  A presidential candidate can only ask to be taken to task on issues.  Senator McCain deserves credit for staying on track and condemning those on his campaign who stray from that course.  I applaud the Senator for keeping this race, clean, so far.

Did I ask you about the book on Hawaii’ history, To Steal a Kingdom?

You know, I have struggled to keep distance from this subject publicly.  I know this type of discussion can easily be looked at as anti-Americanism and I really do try to stay away from that as much as possible.  Although, I have been quietly investigating so I can educate myself on the issue for my own knowledge. 

It seems that this book is taking a middle ground approach here?  Is that what you would conclude?  Are you suggesting I pick it up?  If you are making this recommendation, then surely it can’t be too offensive to my Republican friends.  I will definitely try to pick this one up.

We used to have a radio show here called “Equal Time” with Fred Hemmings.  I used to badger Fred on a whole series of issues.  But over time (and as a member of the frequent caller crowd) we became friends with mutual respect for each other.  Fred is a fierce proponent of the benefits of the colonization of Hawaii and a fierce opponent of the situation happening in our country right now (Mexican immigration).  I always ask him to consider our own history, before we come down to harshly on those we need to, such as the Mexcians (dont mean to change the subject here).  He never understands that argument, but never-the-less, maybe there is something here to add to that discussion?

Anyway, I will digg into it one weekend and let you know what I learned and check out this new perspective.  Thanks.

slavery was prevalent in the world back then.  Not now.

I wish that were true.

There are still people being taken as actual slaves in places like Sudan.

And in a lot of places slavery has become a major part of the “sex industry.”

Young girls from Russia, Ukraine, and other parts of the Russian sphere are tricked into becomming sexual slaves. Thousands of Latin American women are being held against their will as slaves for the same trade.

This is not meant to lessen the terrible toll that bondage took on the black slaves who endured it. But the fact is that slavery was the norm for most of the Earth’s history. And the people who struggled to make it not the norm were largely American and Western European idealists.

We should stop beating ourselves on the chest about slavery, and be proud that our country played a significant roll in delegitimizing it as an institution.

Fred Hemmings the surfer?

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

For the first time in my recollection in all your many comments at SA, this one above appears to be a bit more rational and direct than we have come to expect from you.

Thank you?  OK…ill take that correctly.  Let’s try and have a real debate then.  I’ll try to do better. I ask that you do the same.

1. While you might have said it elsewhere, this is the first time I knew you were a paid staff member of the Obama campaign in Hawaii. It would have proved enlightening and more honest had that been part of your signature or avatar, in the spirit of honest disclosure.

Allow me to provide clarification.  I am at this stage a volunteer, not a paid staff member.  Unfortunately, I am too busy with work (does it seem like it?  No. to be a full-time campaign member.

2. I hope you will understand that just because you know Obama’s sister or other family members, while it may give us all more insights into the family and their thoughts about what he believes, it is still less definitive than a direct relationship with Obama. My sister has impressions of my political beliefs and positions at variance with what I have actually stated and believe, so this may shock the hell out of you, but sisters can be full of shit about what a family member actually believes.

I can understand that and I can see why anyone could logically discount any insight I may offer.

Although, that relationship does slightly increase your credibility on what Obama may believe.

I want to be careful here not to overstep my bounds.  I am Maya’s friend and earned a place as a confidant, so I don’t want to violate that trust too much here.

I could have established a direct relationship with Barack, but I chose to end my relationship with Maya’s hanai sister, because she was too young, in age.  I had the opportunity to meet Barack in his yearly retreat to Hawaii (2007) where he spends his time with family to vacation.  Had I remained in that relationship, I would have a personal relationship, but I had to do what was right and end my relationship before that summer vacation came to pass.

But again, this I feel sort of silly talking about this, I hope you can understand.  Thank you for allowing that relationship to have “some” place for consideration, that’s all I can ask.

3. I would like to see the positions you and sister attribute to Obama that are part of his public record, versus just word of mouth about what someone may think he believes about this or that, not that I think you would be deliberately dishonest to promote Obama’s candidacy, of course. The positions you stated as belonging to Obama do sound very rational and more conservative than one would expect when placed beside his other anti-War, high tax, socialized medicine, and other pro-socialist messages. So, I would appreciate references to the speeches wherein he expressed these views so I can understand their context and prove he actually has these views.

quotes to follow in second half..

My compliments on your first half-way decent reply to anyone here at SA.

Well, thank you, but I certainly have had them with ohers.  I have begun relationships with some others on SA who really didn’t like me too much from the begininng.

Regardless, I shall provide you with quotes from the past and present so you can compare and contrast.  I don’t have a lot of time, so these samples were gathered quickly.

second half to follow.

“Such wisdom might help us move beyond ideological bickering and serve as the basis of a renewed effort to tackle the problem of inner-city poverty. We could begin by acknowledging that perhaps the single biggest thing we could do to reduce such poverty is to encourage teenage girls to finish high school and avoid having children out of wedlock. . .” – Barack Obama, The Audacity of Hope, pps. 255-256

“Obama writes, ‘We should also acknowledge that conservatives – and Bill Clinton – were right about welfare as it was previously structured.’”

“welfare reform. . . has swelled the ranks of the working poor, with women churning in and out of the labor market, locked into jobs that don’t pay a living wage, forced every day to scramble for adequate child care, affordable housing, and accessible health case, only to find themselves at the end of each month wondering how they can stretch the last few dollars that they have left to cover the food bill, the gas bill, and the baby’s new coat.”

“An emphasis on universal, as opposed to race-specific, programs isn’t just good policy, it’s also good politics. . . white guilt has largely exhausted itself in America; even the most fair-minded of whites, those who would genuinely like to see racial inequality ended and poverty relieved, tend to push back against suggestions of racial victimization—or race-specific claims based on the history of race discrimination in this country.” (p. 247)

”given the depletion of our [military] forces after the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will probably need a somewhat higher [Pentagon] budget in the immediate future just to restore readiness and replace equipment.” (p. 307)

From his speech, present day.  (some irrelevant pieces snipped)

Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution—a Constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States.

What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part —through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk—to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, “The past isn’t dead and buried. In fact, it isn’t even past.” We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country.

But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.

That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one’s family, contributed to the erosion of black families—a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened.

And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods—parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement—all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

What’s remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn’t make it—those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination.

http://www.michaelbaisden.com/Article.asp?id=622874

Fred Hemmings the surfer?

Fred Hemmings the Senator, distinguished surfer and creator of the “Triple-Crown of Surfing”.  Yes.

The title claims “Conodoleeza Rice Addresses Race In a Straightforward Way.” Am I the only one who could not understand a word she said. That is what I hate about her. She uses high faluting, ambiguous words and tiptoes around the subject. How many had to read it 2 maybe 3 times to get her meaning? If that was Barack Obama you would have gotten (and have gotten) a “straightforward” answer.

To the bloggers on this discussion Its very interesting to hear whites proclaim that they know black Americans are not discriminated against and have equal opportunities. I would love to see each of you who made this statement change places with any black man to see if you would still say the same things. Yes, discrimination still occurs nothing has changed anyone with any sense would know that you cannot undue 400 years of discrimanatory practices of slavery, Jim crow, etc.. within 40 years duh. Look at your representatives how many black governors within the last 100 years what about senators. You can count on one hand. But, its so equal. If you should know, white women benefitted the most from Affirmative Action. There are more white women Executives, managers, businesses, Governors, and senators, etc… I am so tired of people talking about affirmative action. If you really understood the law, companies are not required to hire a certain amount of African Americans that has changed. No more quota system, yes, there are a few federal regulations, but it amounts to nothing like it was originally formulated to be. If you had a business are you so colorblind, that race wouldn’t matter in your hiring practices come on who are you kidding. If there was a black man that walked into your business with an immaculate resume’ of accomplishments with cornrows in his hair. He would get the job right? I beg to differ.
The man who spoke about 3/5 compromise yes, it was about economics, but slaveowners and white America also, had the mindset that black Americans were less of men and women as well. History proves that, so your theory doesn’t fly.

I would like to restate, yes some things have changed for the better for African Americans. But, to those that have claimed that discrimination does not exist and African Americans have equal opportunities. I stand by my convictions. Change a places for a day with an African American male and see for yourself. I don’t care who it is, wealthy or not.

Change a places for a day with an African American male and see for yourself.

I hold the Black Panther Movement largely responsible for that.  When you project an image of yourself wearing a leather jacket, holding a shotgun and spewing hatred of “white people”, there are consequences.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

History proves that, so your theory
doesn’t fly.

You’re just wrong; history clearly tells us that the 3/5 rule was about representation in the federal govt, and not about “worth” at all.  In fact, as has been pointed out several times now, the anti-slavery people wanted the slaves not to be counted at all.  The slavery people wanted the slaves to be counted equally.  You are simply ignorant of the truth there.
If you want equality(and all “white people” aren’t treated equally, either, btw), shed the gangsta image, do what it takes to get an education, stay away from drugs, get a job and delay having babies until you’re married.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Hannitized.  Thanks for your logical words on Mr. Obama’s voting record and Mr. McCain’s high road campaign.  Yes, I strongly suggest To Steal a Kingdom.  It is an even handed well researched history of Hawaii’.  Several natives said the same and suggested it to me.  I read it in about two days while on Oahu and used some of the language and history to further my study.  It begins thousands of years ago and includes histories of some of the other islands also.  There are several other bad players involved in its history.

Communism is evil

robert108.  Well put, to the point and on topic.  A straightforward discussion of race.  Let me add that I know of, have seen in several government organizations people of color who were elevated to positions of authority with not even the minimum educational requirements, no experience whatsoever and a complete lack of understanding of the job itself.  They wrecked the missions of those branches and indirectly put people’s health and lives at risk.  This must stop.
Anyone who has been in public school since 1970 has absolutely no excuse but their own for lack of an education.  1970-5= born 1965.  2008-1965= 43 years old.

Communism is evil

Chief RZ: I read your comments about unqualified blacks being elevated to high levels in government organizations and in the end basically put the mission and people’s health and lives at risk. Now tell me how many whites have you seen do the same thing in your lifetime. I bet there were quite a few.
I feel that in many cases some organizations exploited the affirmative action edict and purposely put blacks in higher positions just to satisfy the public. But in the end what difference does it make whether the individual is white or black? A person should be promoted on his/her abilities. Will you be honest enough to admit that society systematically excluded blacks from moving up while whites with less experience given promotion after promotion. If we had been given a level playing field in the beginning, we would not be having this conversation. But this is the way white America wanted it and that’s the way it was.
But blacks persevered. In many areas of the country we had prosperous communities with thriving business districts. Some were called “The Black Wall Street”. But,as in Oklahoma City in the ‘03s or ‘40s, a little white girl cried rape (falsely) and this set off riots by whites resulting in the death and injury of hundreds of blacks and the burning of black neighborhoods and businesses. That is a fact, Mister. So stop running around blaming blacks for their economic plight. Blame the your white ancestors who never visualized blacks as other than second class citizens. They set in place barriers to make sure that we never rose above that level. That’s the truth. But, like many right wingers, you can’t handle the truth.

w: If you want to study race-based hiring, read up on Reconstruction sometime.  It is the root of many of the racial problems we have today, and was perpetrated by do-gooder Dems.  Enjoy.  Educate yourself.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

watashiwa.  Glad to debate and talk about this with you, but it seems as if you are a bit biased.  Care to share some background?  Mine is on my profile page.
Your name leads to:  http://html/

A person should be promoted on his/her abilities.

Yes, in the past, some people were excluded.  Some Italians, Irish, Germans, Africans, Russians, American Indians, Indians, and every race and nationality you can think of.  Most got over it and excelled. 

Many people of color also excluded others and apparently, still do according to DVDs sold by a racist church in Chicago.  I have never attended a church with such vile, racist, anti-American talk in my life.  Church is a place to receive The Word of Jesus Christ and the words of those before in the Old Testament.

There have been false rape accusations of all stripes.  We only have to look at Al Sharpton and the Tawana Brawley hoax or the Duke University racist accusations and the gang of 88 publicly lynching the innocent players.  In our town, three negroes raped, tortured and killed an innocent woman in 1984.  I was on the jury pool.

The solution is not to continue putting incompetent people in positions of authority jeopardizing public health, but if that person was born after 1965, then treat each applicant as you said, “on his or her abilities.”

Communism is evil

robert108, thanks for the reminder and while we are on the subject, our state finally paid off the debt from the free spending carpetbaggers, etc in 1965!

If an applicant was qualified, they were given an even shot from all I have seen in my lifetime.  I know that many were also kept on even though they were quite incompetent after 1965.

Communism is evil

Watashiwa, robert108 has opened up some other discriminations based on accident of birth.  I just remembered this:  Left-handed people.  I saw at my University for the first time in 1970 a row of left handed desks.  In the military, it was difficult for left-handed people to qualify with the M-16.  The hot brass at the time only exited to the right.

This unfair and misguided practise of giving people jobs based solely on skin color must stop before we perpetuate race and get past what Miss Rice spoke about and what Dr. King said, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”

In our middle school, 8th Grade History students were given three choices of US documents to memorize and present.  One was the MLK speech above.
The only person to get it perfect was a caucasian. 

I am signing off for the night, but will check back tomorrow for you reply and comments.

Communism is evil

ChiefRZ. I really don’t care what you think about me.
And I do not care about what happened to other ethnic groups. All I ask of anyone is to really take a look at the situations in the bright light of day. I do not recall any whites being killed in the Tawana Brawley case or the Duke University case. But as I stated above many black men, women and children have been killed by whites enflamed by the thought of a black man raping a white woman. I don’t know what the case was when those blacks raped, tortured and killed that woman in 1984. Apparently, it left a lasting impression on you. Well, think about it happening over and over again without the culprits ever being bought to justice. That’s black history in America. I love this country. But I hate the people who attempt to keep the constitutional promise of “life, liberty and justice for all” from us.

I do not recall any whites being killed in the Tawana Brawley case or
the Duke University case.

So what?  The injustices perpetrated by anti-white racism are still real.  You don’t get to set the standards for injustice.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

watashiwa.  I cited the two cases above as examples of false rape charges that you referred to earlier merely to show that there are and still exist today false rape accusations.  By FBI statistics, it approaches 25% of the accusations.  I am closely familiar with several.

For the one example I cited, I try to stick to The Truth.  I was, and you seem to acknowledge there.  The lasting impression is that the person was a completely innocent young woman coming out of a mall, set upon by three crazed killers.
In my opinion and the opinion of the jury and court, they should have received the death penalty.  They did, but later, if you read the link I provided cried race and had the judgement commuted.  Now I, as a taxpayer must support these three with food, clothing and shelter for the rest of their lives.  The family has to endure their presence also. 

So, I need to provide some cases of false rape charges followed by killings?
OK.  I think there are plenty of those around, but why if you are not willing to look at racism in America from all sides?

In the light of day.

So why do you not care what happened to other ethnic groups?  It seems that you are one sided, not wanting to look at the issue of race in America.  I am.
No ethnic group should be treated with distain or prejudice.  Is that not what we heard from people of color for the last thirty years?  Perhaps it was a lie.
Maybe they did not want racial equality as was passed in 1964?  I took it at face value, but slowly it changed into preferences based on the salient quality of skin color.  No matter where a person was born, immigrated from or if they held or did not hold slaves. 

Lets talk about race in America.

Communism is evil

It seems that people just don’t want to honestly talk about race in America.  Those who do not, it seems, want to wallow in the past; it is so much easier to be irresponsible than responsible for one’s own actions.  The prince:  All privilege and no responsibility.

Communism is evil

Chief Rz: 

...to honestly talk about race in America

Everyone agrees…. but, how?  There’s the rub.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

pparets.  An opening gambit?  Simple.  By talking honestly and openly.  First, by accepting people on their merits and nothing else.  The last thing learned in “diversity training” is that all these complaints would be avoided if each person was treated as an individual and evaluated fairly. 
One example I and a few others cited was the orchestra holding trials of people from behind a curtain so they would only be able to evaluate the person’s musical ability, not see them.  It was rejected by the moderator!  Why?  I forget now, but we realized that they were not going to accept open and honest people’s discussions, but merely stick to the biased ideas of “diversity” which of course is code for affirmative action and that white people are all the problem and should just get out of the way!

Communism is evil

Chief RZ: 

rejected by the moderator!

...they were not going to accept people’s open and honest discussion..

stick to the biased ideas

white people are all the problem

.... which is why I asked how ?

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

pparets, but we did not give up.  We “turned” the class of about fifty.  You could almost see that she knew she was parroting lies.  I have talked with her two years later and she is an open person.  The “training” was forced upon us by the Clinton administration.  I do not think it is taught the same way now, but I will check and get back with you.

The way to discuss this is to and from intellectual and honest people.  Like you and I as well as about 70% of the people here.  Let’s begin…. tomorrow, must turn in for a full day tomorrow.

Communism is evil

Chief : IMO, the real problem with race relations is politics.  The Dems, after being the Party of racism during the 19th and early 20th Centuries, has now created self-serving propaganda to blame racism on the Party that freed the slaves.  Nice trick.  For continued access to power, the Dems must continue the consciousness of victimization among all their “groups”, so the last thing they want is reconciliation between “white” and “black” Americans, at least until they can get the vote for the invaders(illegal aliens).  Then, the blacks will be thrown under the bus just like on Grey’s Anatomy when they threw the black guy under the bus for the gay guy.  Good old Dem partisan politics!

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

robert108.  Remember Howard Dean’s comment after the close US Senate race (no pun) in Maryland?  ~We can’t have another one like this~
They must control ________ I will leave that to the imagination of posters here.
pparets.  Might you share some background?  and robert108, why don’t you have a profile either so we might exchange some information too offline?

To the comment about the cornrows:  Appearance does matter, unfortunately, but look at this another way if you can.  In your example:

If there was a black man that walked into your business with an immaculate resume’ of accomplishments with cornrows in his hair.

Lets change two words in the sentence:  black and cornrows and substitute:

1.  white, yellow, blue, lefthanded, woman, girl, boy, tall, short, southerner, westerner, Hungarian, Brazilian, fat, wheelchairbound, pregnant, or epileptic.
with
2.  pink hair, nose ring, body odor, foul-mouthed, dressed like a hooker, bubblegum chewing, wearing hogwashers and muddy boots, frecklefaced, bossy, wore a heritage pin, smelled of drugs, lied, believed in voodo, threatened to sue if not hired before the interview, or had eighteen rings in his/her ears.

Unfortunately, abnormal or unconventional appearance does have a basis for hiring some people when dealing with the public.  If the applicant was applying for a job where he/she would not have interaction with the public, then the appearance would not make a difference unless it might lead to problems with other employees.  People really must leave some things at home, but we all do carry our:  religion, nationality, mores, and for some, race to the workplace.  Acknowledge it, yes, but remember that you are asking for a job otherwise you would be starting up your own company.

Communism is evil

Chief RZ: Usual comments from a chief. I don’t think you can compare choosing to be apart of a inner city gang or fleeing a country with just the clothes on your back for a better life in another country to being beaten and shoved into some ship to travel too a far away land, never to see your family and home again. Really now, that is just not the same thing in anyones book of reality. Oh yeah! I do think that life gets better and that you should move forward but that is because of individuals who treat others the way they would want to be treated and they choose the walk a step in other people shoes, maybe you sould try that.

Sheryl.  Your service/branch so I can evaluate your comment about being a CMSgt.  There were others who were forced, in chains into slavery.  Some went to Siberia, some to South America, some to Haiti, some to the USA.  Some Hungarians were also tortured if you care to read about it.  Were you?
We can all wallow in what our ancestors had to endure.  How about being set afire as a human candle by the Romans?  and on and on and on.

Lets stop this perpetual ruminations on the past and take what we have today and as I posted, since 1965 and moveon.  Neither you nor I were slaves in our lifetime, am I correct?  How about choosing not to be a part of a criminal gang?

Will you or have you allowed your children the free choice to study and better themselves?  That is what I taught my students:  You may have a miserable life now, but will you make it better for your own children since you apparently can identify what you do not like now!

Communism is evil

I don’t think you can compare choosing to be apart of a inner city gang or fleeing a country with just the clothes on your back for a better life in another country to being beaten and shoved into some ship to travel too a far away land, never to see your family and home again.

Sheryl,

I think its safe to assume that the last person to whom this happened passed away well over a hundred years ago.

If you are yourself of African descent, it would involve no disrespect for your great-great-great grandparents to recognize that the horrific tragedy that befell them did in fact result in an enormous opportunity for you.

Think not?  Then perhaps you could explain exactly which African country you would prefer to have been born in… and why anyone with any sense and any education would make such a choice.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Commenting on the part about a racist church in Chicago. You must have been watching Fox news or maybe even a few snippets on YouTube. Why don’t you listen to the whole sermon that was given. Also, listen to the many sermons that were given. Its funny how pundits like to take a few sound bites and play up on words that would be controversial. They know how to feed to the fear of white society by displaying so called black millitancy to white America.

Also, listen to the many sermons that were given. Its funny how pundits like to take a few sound bites and play up on words that would be controversial.

Funny, I sat in a church for years and my pastor never said anything as remotely ‘controversial’ as what Wright said.

I have a feeling that the majority of Wright’s ‘sermons’ are just chock-full of bigoted nuttiness.

...so called black millitancy…

It dates from 1966, so you’re either willfully ignorant or a liar.
Wright doesn’t have to say “Goddamn America” or “USof KKKA” more than once.  He said it and he meant it.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Again, no one addresses the real issue. White fear The truth is the truth. Rather you like it or not.

White fear The truth is the truth.
Rather you like it or not.

The real issue is that the commies co-opted the civil rights movement in the Sixties into their agenda to destroy American society by dividing it into groups and then setting them against each other.  The big lie is that Black Americans and White Americans have disparate interests.  In the same way, American Feminism seeks to divide Male Americans and Female Americans.
This movement to stir up hate and violence against White Americans began in 1966 with the so-called “black liberation theology”, among other similar movements.
Black Americans have suffered as a result of this kind of race and hatemongering, especially young black men.  Only the race hustlers and race pimps, like Jackson, Sharpton, Rangel and Wright have benefited from this, while Black Americans suffer.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The ‘Truth’?

AIDS was created by the US government is the ‘truth’?

America deserving 9/11 is the ‘truth’?

Wright and these other black preachers are not speaking the truth, they are peddling lies.

Corrosive, despicable lies.

White fear The truth is the truth.
Rather you like it or not.

The Truth has nothing to do with fear.  There is nothing to fear.

The Truth is about whether someone who has spent 20 years as acolyte to the propagators of this sort of hateful bigotry and bile is himself qualified to be President.

The answer, clearly, is No, he is not!

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Wow, I never knew that a group of people could be so clueless and so misinformed. Condelezza’s words were deep and well chosen, the fact that most people are choosing to pick at every nuance of slavery shows me that most of you are unable to see the bigger picture. Please dont be so simple minded, it is much more complex. Whoever posted this left out a great portion of what she said. It is called lying by omission.

Rice grew up in Birmingham AL at the height of the civil rights tensions, she knew segregation, humiliation and hate. A close friend of hers were one of the girls killed when the KKK bombed that baptist church in Birmingham killing 4 young girls.This was the 60s.

Here is some of what was left out:

“My grandmother and my great-grandmother, and my father, who endured terrible humiliations growing up—and my father in Baton Rouge, Louisiana; and my mother’s family in Birmingham, Alabama—still loved this country….But if anybody believes that black Americans love this country any less than white Americans do, they ought to go and talk to people who live under very tough circumstances, sometimes doing menial labor and doing tough jobs, and really all they want is the American dream. All they’re focused on is is their kid going to be well educated enough to go to college and have a better life than they had.”

“There is a paradox for this country and a contradiction of this country and we still haven’t resolved it, But what I would like understood as a black American is that black Americans loved and had faith in this country even when this country didn’t love and have faith in them, and that’s our legacy.”

She has also made some other statements.

In addition, the condescending and degrading comments about blacks must go. When read your comments, I get very offended. We are not a monolith.

It is also apparent that you guys enjoy selective history. I have some words for you, Jim Crow, segregation in all institutions not just schools, defamation of blacks in ways that are grotesque whether it be film or any other facet of culture, media and life, the treatment of blacks as if they are second class citizens and not real Americans, white supremacy and the fact that it is deeply embedded in the constructs of our society.

Some of you are not understanding that blacks won real citizenship within the last 50 years which is very recent history so your ancient history references are not accurate.

In addition, the condescending and degrading comments about blacks must go. When read your comments, I get very offended. We are not a monolith.

Sorry, we don’t have thought police here.

I would be curious to know however exactly what comments here have ‘offended’ you.