Say Anything Blog

Some people are ashamed of their heritage, others are proud of theirs.

It’s only considered a “stereotype” when you feel ashamed of something…

A number of years ago, the American Indian Movement started taking action to get Florida State University to get rid of their Seminole mascot, Chief Osceola. 

The Seminole tribe pretty much told them to go to hell.

An article from the St. Petersburg Times a couple of years ago states the Seminoles’ view of FSU’s use of them as a mascot:

Legislators, Seminoles gather for FSU Day

“The Seminoles also got a special endorsement from Max Osceola, acting chairman of the Seminole Indian Tribe.

“ “We’re proud of the relationship we’ve established with FSU,” Osceola told the crowd. “We do not consider the use of our name derogatory or insulting. The tribe supports the ongoing use of the Seminoles for FSU. By the grace of God, I was born Seminole, but it is by choice you are Seminoles.” “

Where’s Ward Churchill when you need him?

Reagards…

mamapajamas, who are you going to believe, the chairman of the Seminole Tribe or the “expert on everything”, Jadegold?

I know, I know, it’s a difficult dilemma

The Seminole tribe pretty much told them to go to hell.

Incorrect.  Some Seminoles did--not all and not even a majority of the Seminole tribe.  A majority of Seminoles feel the use and portrayal of their tribe is offensive.

It’s only considered a “stereotype� when you feel ashamed of something…

One of the more bizarre comments I’ve seen on race relations.  Marty apparently believes when racists depict, say, blacks as watermelon-eating, halfwits--it’s blacks who ought to be ashamed.  Or when Poles are depicted as idiots--it’s Poles who should be ashamed.

Don’t believe me--believe actual Native Americans:

From the FSU SGA:

http://www.fsu.edu/~sga/journal1113.html

Dr Hayes, a professor at FSU, said that the university that he teaches at is a leader of progressive thought, even though there are no Native American courses taught to educate the student body. He said he teaches a course entitled Seminoles of Florida, and he has found that the Native Americans object to the derogatory use of their name. Ruby B., a member of the Tribe Zota, said that FSU does not understand the use of the mascot and they need to realize what this mascot does to their culture - it has a negative effect on the children and it is demeaning and degrading. Susan Anderson said she attended FSU and felt the sting of the nasty mascot for all the time she was here. She said the mascot offends her and her children. Patricia Cordier said she is of Native American descent and she is against using the Seminole Indian as a mascot. David Narcomy, an instructor at FSU, said he conducts workshops on racism and it is morally wrong for FSU to use the Seminole as a mascot. Paul Rutkorsky told the Senate that FSU needs to have a Native American Program and he asked that the Senate discuss this further.

Still more:

http://home.earthlink.net/~ekistics10/mcnair/nltr0207.htm#story7

To better understand the Florida State Seminoles and their mascot, Chief Osceola, a little history is needed. Chief Osceola, a mascot that is actually named after a historical figure in Seminole history, was the brainchild of Bill Durham, a FSU graduate student, who “sought and obtained the approval of the Seminole Tribe of Florida for the portrayal of Osceola” (http://seminoles.fansonly.com/trads/fsu-trads-osceola.html). Chief Osceola, who wears “authentic regalia designed by the ladies of the Seminole Tribe of Florida” rides an Appaloosa horse to the center of the field at every home football game and plants a flaming spear in the ground, leading the FSU Seminoles football team into battle (http://seminoles.fansonly.com/trads/fsu-trads-osceola.html).

The Seminole Indians, actually a mixture of a large number of Creek Indians and some native Florida groups, are best know for their resistance to the US Government�s Indian Removal Policy during the early to mid 1800�s. The Seminole War that characterized their existence in the 1835 is full of stories of heroic Seminoles fiercely resisting and giving little ground while killing thousands of opposition forces. The Seminole finally agreed to remove to Indian Territory in 1842, although some 300 Seminole refused to remove and escaped to the everglades, forming what is today the Florida Seminole Tribe (Williams Lecture, 10/25/01).

In this case it appears that Chief Osceola has made a legitimate bid as the mascot for FSU. But how deep is the backing for the FSU mascot? FSU mascot supporters do indeed include the chair of the Seminole tribe of Florida, James E. Billie, who has stated repeatedly that “neither he nor the tribe has any objection to the use of the FSU name, logo, or mascot” (Team Spirits, King, 144). While this may be true, it is also true that Billie does not represent all of the Seminole Nation. ”Of further importance is the fact than none of the four Seminole tribes of Oklahoma nor any other well-known Seminole members have endorsed the FSU situation. In fact, Seminole Michael Haney is prominent among a national group of Native Americans who have protested the Indian mascot for many schools and franchises, including FSU” (Team Spirits, King, 146).

And as if the matter wasn�t complicated enough already, Billie�s approval only appears to be a token statement of his own opinion. In fact the Seminole Tribe of Florida has actually signed a statement of the National Congress of American Indians condemning the use of Native American Mascots (http://www.ncai.org).

And now comes the feared fighting whites http://www.fightingwhites.org/ I find it very bizzarre that whites from all over the planet are not protesting the immoral use of this mascot and to make out like all white men look like Ward Cleaver at that. On the serious side I find it odd that when native mericans use the same mascots it is no longer derogatory kind of like the “N” word not being a racial slur if it is used by black people. I went to Northeastern Oklahome State the home of the Redmen which is alo the capitol of the Cherokee Nation (West).

Marty should actually be offended by his own ignorance.  But I guess ignorance is truly bliss.

The term ‘Viking’ is not specifically tied to an ethnic group.  Instead, the term originates in a profession--meaning seafarer or pirate.  The term is also used to refer to an age (the Viking ages) when maurauding seafarers conquered/colonized various villages/towns/settlements.

Yes I am also offended by the Minnesota Vikings, who would stereotype all white males of european descent as marauding barbarians…

DOWN WITH THE TRYANNY OF TEAM SPIRIT!

The Vikings originated in Scandanvia.  Their progeny included strains of other cultures because they traveled broadly.

And still, this is totally off the point.  Though that’s probably your point.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The term ‘Viking’ is not specifically tied to an ethnic group.

Really Jadegold?  Because the only people I’ve heard referred to as “Vikings” have been people of scandanavian descent.

Though this is a little off the point.  I’m not offended by the “Whiteys” mascot example linked above either and I don’t understand why anyone would be offended by having their heritage referenced by a college mascot.  Its a positive thing.  The people who are offended by it are silly.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Really Jadegold? Because the only people I’ve heard referred to as “Vikings� have been people of scandanavian descent.

Really.  In reality, Vikings were made up of a number of ethnic groups including Scandanavians, Celts, Normans, Russians, Slavs, Saxons.  In fact, the ancestors to the Vikings (Varangians)may have had some Asian origins from their origins in Constantinople.

The Vikings originated in Scandanvia.

Nope.  Why Vikings are predominately associated with Scandanavia is because that’s where they eventually settled and assimilated into the native culture(s). 

In reality, the Vikings likely originated in the Baltic or near Germany.

Jadegold..."He said he teaches a course entitled Seminoles of Florida, and he has found that the Native Americans object to the derogatory use of their name. Ruby B., a member of the Tribe Zota, said that FSU does not understand the use of the mascot and they need to realize what this mascot does to their culture - it has a negative effect on the children and it is demeaning and degrading.”

NONE of the people your article quotes is said to be a Seminole.  All of them are loosely identified as “Native American” or the one identified as a “Zolta”.  I also doubt that what this particular professor “finds” is relevant to actual numbers, unless he has personally done a house-to-house survey of all Aboriginal Americans.

The Seminoles themselves are proud of their connection to FSU, and frequently say so.

And the Seminole opinion is the only one that counts.

Further, I personally find the term “Native American” offensive, so what are you going to do about it? 

The fact is that everyone born in the Western Hemisphere is a “native American”, given that the word “native” correctly refers to where you were born, not who your ancestors were.

Am I going to impose my view on the rest of the world?  Hell, no!

Use the term “Native American” if you want to.  It offends me (as a person who is both born in the Americas and part Aboriginal American-- a term that actually describes the tribes… aboriginal="my ancestors arrived here before yours"), but you won’t catch me insisting that everyone else use the term I prefer, even though the term “Native American” is being used in an anthropologically incorrect way.

Why Vikings are predominately associated with Scandanavia is because that’s where they eventually settled and assimilated into the native culture(s).

Yeah, well Native Americans supposedly walked across the Bering Straight (or was it called the Bering Ithmus back then?) to get here, so they aren’t even “native” americans either. 

People who are offended by the stereotypes that are associated with them have no sense of humor.  If you are incapable of laughing at yourself, then you deserve to be offended. Get over it whitey.

Oh Crap!  I just remembered that my paternal ancestors came over from Ireland in the early 1800’s.  I think i’ll get offended by the “Fighting Irish of Notre Dame”—right after i have lunch.

Heck, i may even get roaring drunk and pick a fight with someone…

And the Seminole opinion is the only one that counts.

Agreed.  But you must have missed this:

In this case it appears that Chief Osceola has made a legitimate bid as the mascot for FSU. But how deep is the backing for the FSU mascot? FSU mascot supporters do indeed include the chair of the Seminole tribe of Florida, James E. Billie, who has stated repeatedly that “neither he nor the tribe has any objection to the use of the FSU name, logo, or mascot� (Team Spirits, King, 144). While this may be true, it is also true that Billie does not represent all of the Seminole Nation. “Of further importance is the fact than none of the four Seminole tribes of Oklahoma nor any other well-known Seminole members have endorsed the FSU situation. In fact, Seminole Michael Haney is prominent among a national group of Native Americans who have protested the Indian mascot for many schools and franchises, including FSU� (Team Spirits, King, 146).

And as if the matter wasn�t complicated enough already, Billie�s approval only appears to be a token statement of his own opinion. In fact the Seminole Tribe of Florida has actually signed a statement of the National Congress of American Indians condemning the use of Native American Mascots (http://www.ncai.org).

Further, I personally find the term “Native American� offensive, so what are you going to do about it?

I shall continue to allow you to be offended.  Otherwise, I could care less what you find offensive.

Marty is still smarting over his

It’s only considered a “stereotype� when you feel ashamed of something…

Marty,

You think you have a problem?  I’m really in a pickle.  I’m half Scots and half Irish.

I love to drink, but I hate to pay for it.

Regards…

Well as an Alum of the University of Illinois and an avid, and I mean avid follower of UofI sports I think this is crazy. First of allat Illinoiswe don’t refer to Chief Illiniwek as merely a mascot but a Symbol. The chief does not run around in the stands or go out on the floor during time outs. The chief only does his authentic dance during halftime and then is not seen or heard from again. I can gaurantee that not Illini indians are offended by this, because there are none left. The costume worn by the chief is authentic and was donated by a local tribe (black foot I think but very well could be wrong)

Sad part is thah most of the people upset by the chief are white, lilly white. Yes some Native Americans are upset but a good majority are in favor of the chief.

Rah Rah Rah!
Sis Boom Bah!

Go Androgynous Automatons! 

Gimme an N
Gimme an O
Gimme a T
Gimme a H
Gimme an I
Gimme an N
Gimme a G

Whats that spell?  NOTHING WOOO!

JG: “In fact, Seminole Michael Haney is prominent among a national group of Native Americans who have protested the Indian mascot for many schools and franchises, including FSUâ€? (Team Spirits, King, 146).”

OK… that’s one opinion against the Florida tribe.  The other branches haven’t said anything about it.

Sorry, but the Seminole tribe is a democracy.  The Chairman represents the opinions of the majority.