likwidshoe

How could it be “ongoing” if “those biases” don’t exist?

Because the effects of a thing can outlast the thing itself. For example, if I punch you on the arm you might bruise; that bruise will be there tomorrow, even though I’m no longer punching you. Similarly if I’ve spent a couple of hundred years treating your ancestors as property, and another hundred as inferior, it might take you some time to bounce back from that, no matter how resilient you happen to be as an individual.

As to what I believe – I don’t think African-Americans as a whole are stupider, lazier or less talented than European-Americans as a whole, though I’m positive there are many stupid, lazy, talentless members of both groups. Neither do I think that they’re somehow more susceptible to the downsides of the Great Society, as you seem to suggest. I believe that they started the last century in a deeper hole than European-Americans on average, and so it’s harder for them to get out of the hole, and correspondingly easier for them to just give up. Find me a group with a similar background who happened to be a different skin color and I would think the same thing.

So, while I don’t think AA is a good idea, I think it’s an attempt to recognize that African Americans have started the race a lap behind, and hence we should (arguably) give them a hand until they catch up.

Paul – Neither do I think that they’re somehow more susceptible to the downsides of the Great Society, as you seem to suggest. I believe that they started the last century in a deeper hole than European-Americans on average, and so it’s harder for them to get out of the hole, and correspondingly easier for them to just give up.

They’re more susceptible because they have people such as you constantly telling them that they are victims.

Racism doesn’t explain away why only 30 to 40 percent of black males graduate from high school. A culture of victimhood and entitlement mentalities does though.

The most pernicious effect of affirmative action, in my opinion, is that as long as it exists, it gives ammunition to the small minded bigots and misogynists by casting doubt on the genuine achievements of those who make it without any help.

I’m not a fan of affirmative action, but if it is necessary it’s because of the ongoing effects of bias against people of other races whether those biases still exist or not. It’s a fact that African-Americans overall suffer from poverty and related social problems at a higher rate than European-Americans. If that’s not the result of such biases, then the only other option I can think of is that it’s the ‘fault’ of the African-Americans themselves. You are free to think that they are inferior in this way; I don’t believe so.

So while I think that AA is probably unconstitutional, and I don’t like it anyway, to suggest that it equates with racism misses the possibility that it merely recognizes a current problem.

Affirmative Action has many pitfalls and problems. I know that most of the posters are not truly racist they just appear that way on this blog.

Do we really believe that since the US declared independence that we have not had a; woman, black,hispanic,asian, etc… that has been qualified to be president? It is just ‘now’ in 2008 that we ‘finally’ have a woman and a black man that are qualified to run for the office? Why now? What is so amazing about now that we finally accept/allow/believe that Palin (woman) and Obama (black man) are qualified to serve?

I am not saying that AA is the entire reason, but I am sure it has assisted over the years by forcing the breakdown of misconception and stereo-type.

Sometimes we have to be forced to learn and to grow.

It is somewhat like the disdain for the ACLU. We love to hate them when we should thank God that most of us don’t need them. Just as most of us are not impacted by A.A.

likwid – I’ve never told an African-American that he or she is a victim, nor have I said that the African-American community as a whole is a victim. I have stated that they have spent several centuries either as property or as second class citizenry. I have stated this because it’s true. Further, I’ve said that this makes being successful harder for them. This is, if not strictly a fact, so blindingly obvious that I tend to count it as one. I’ve also said (elsewhere) that this is not a function of their skin color, not inherent in their race, and that it means that they have to work harder, not give up sooner.

The reason I don’t like affirmative action, and am not that keen on welfare as it exists today, is that they can too easily be seen as giving the ‘victim message’, whether or not that message is intended. So yes, they may have been told (or inferred for themselves) that they are victims, but it hasn’t come from people “such as me”.

All – I’m puzzled as to how 3 centuries of being told that they are sub-human is something that the African-American community should be able to shrug off in a decade or two, but being told that they’re victims brings them to their knees. Logically that makes no sense to me, so I’d appreciate a (simple!) explanation.

I’ll repeat – I don’t think affirmative action is a good thing. But neither is it necessarily an insult to African Americans, a way of telling them that they’re not good enough to succeed on their own. It’s a (poor) way of dealing with a difficult problem.

ec: Actually, it’s a redefinition of what Buzzie Bavasi did when he hired Jackie Robinson to play for the Dodgers. He did that strictly on the basis of merit, in spite of the racial dimension.
The so-called “affirmative action” of the leftie social engineers is because of the race dimension.

In other words, they have reversed the original meaning. Not unusual for lefties.

They always have been. The only reason we have them is due to relentless playing of the race card by the Dems.
Shame on them!