Say Anything Blog

He’s undoubtedly right that your average Canadian has no more trouble securing a doctor’s appointment for the sniffles or the flu or a dislocated pinky than the average American.

Don’t think he’s right on that matter either.  Granted you may have to wait a few days to see your regular doctor but there are plenty of places e.g. Primacare where one can walk in without an appointment to seek medical relief.  I have used them many times and have been very satisfied with them.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

Krugman, a former advisor to the now defunct Enron, and Princeton Economics professor, has managed to correctly call 13 of the last one recession(s) over past dozen years.  He did not correctly call any of the Islamist terrorist attacks during that same period.  It’s doubtful that his assessments in the field of health care policy would be any more accurate than those in the other two areas.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

But if you’re living under it, just hope you don’t get cancer or need a hip replacement at a time when they’re rationing those procedures.

My wife has endured two surgeries for cancer and she’s quite happy that we live in Canada. Some people do have to wait too long for some procedures and Canadians want the wait times addressed but the system works fine for the most part.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

I lived under the Canadian system for 13 years in British Columbia. Long lines and double or even triple booking were not uncommon.
It was not too long ago that BC had only one MRI machine in the whole Province. If one needed to have an MRI the waiting list was 2 years. At the same time if your dog needed and MRI it could be had in as little as two weeks, as they used the self same MRI machine at night for the dogs. When the public heard about this, there was a great outcry. The governments answer was to no longer allow use of the MRI machine for animals.
My Father in law died under the Canadian health care system due mainly to phenominal overmedication. The doctors would rather prescribe another pill then find the real problem. At one point he had to have bypass surgery, and had to wait over 6 months. Is this “elective” surgery? I don’t think so.
And the myth that healthcare in Canada is free is outrageous. They use over 50 percent of their GDP for their “free” healthcare system.
Don’t need it, don’t want it.

Tough choice:  wait for surgery under the Canadian system or die under the American system.

Mike, maybe your wife was just one of the lucky ones who needed medical services when your government wasn’t rationing them due to the fact that it can’t provide them on demand.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

Tough choice:  wait for surgery under the Canadian system or die under the American system.

OR…Don’t be a bum, earn your own health insurance and you’ll get the greatest care in the world.

Of course some would rather sit around and complain that other people are paying for the things that they want.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Of course, if there actually WERE people dying in the US for lack of available healthcare, they’d probably be those who think a wide screen, hi-def, plasma TV is more important than health insurance for their family anyway… exactly those persons too lazy, too stupid, and too self-centered to do anything but vote Democrat on election day.

So where’s the loss?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Rob…maybe she was. Like you, I don’t claim perfection for my healthcare system either but it does work pretty well and it is in accord with traditional Canadian values.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

I’ve made this comment on a previous blog… I usually go with my mother to a cancer support group.  The speaker at a not too long ago meeting said they have many cancer patients who come to the cancer care center from Canada because if the patient is past a certain age or the cancer is at a later stage the patient does not get care.  The care is reserved for persons who have a better prognosis.  I can’t say with certainty that this statement is correct, however the cancer care center here has lots of Canadian patients.

Socialized dentistry is even worse. Even the NY Times had to face reality and run a recent story about how the british are yanking out their own teeth because wait times for a dentist are so long. Could you imagine living with a toothache for months?I’ve read that it’s also bad in France where the people have not heard of a root canal procedure because the dentist will just yank the tooth instead.

I’ve read that it’s also bad in France where the people have not heard of a root canal procedure because the dentist will just yank the tooth instead.

However many of the people who had that service will rank it highly because it made the pain go away and they didn’t pay for it.

Of course the socialists that run the news media never bring up that the socialist system is less than perfect and removing teeth they shouldn’t because the system is broken.

I think that has a lot to do with the satisfaction rankings of the health care systems.  They aren’t necessarily based on the actual care you get.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

I worked in Toronto for 9 weeks. My taxes were almost double what it is in the USA. About $800 mote for 1 month. All that for free health care. I pay $400 a month for my families health insurance in America and can pocket the other $400. Thanks but no thanks to universal health care. Our taxes will skyrocket.

Last time I visited Canada and made a purchase, I was suprised at the size of the sales tax. It’s how we pay for the “Free” health care was the answer.
  I still have the News paper article on how the Canadian health system was shut down from 1 December 89 to January 1, 1990. Only emergency care was availaable due to the lack of funds to run the system.
  If the Cuban health care is so wonderful, why did they have to bring in doctors from Spain to treat Fidel? It wasn’t good enough for the elite, just the peasants. Fatty didn’t note this in his movie.

Last time I visited Canada and made a purchase, I was suprised at the size of the sales tax. It’s how we pay for the “Free” health care was the answer.

Many Canadians will then go on to tell you that they “care” and this is why they support government health care.

They “care” so much that they want an inferior product and service.

Inferiority = “in accord with traditional Canadian values”.

Plus they care so much that they come down here and buy stuff so they don’t have to buy it from Canada.

They also wash the clothes they buy here at the laundromats so that they don’t have to pay the sales taxes at the border.

Because they care.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Please… I am Canadian I live in Toronto the biggest city we have.  I can’t get a family doctor because we have immesne shortages as a result I am forced to use walk in clinics.  Walk in clinics in suburbia are greta in that they often operate until 9 or 10pm to service their residents.  Here in Toronto most open until 4 or 5pm with only a few running until 9pm.  For a person to get health care here they need to take a morning or day off work to wait in a waiting room for an overworked doctor to see you.Next its not free because many things that are basic still require payment of some kind.  It is a reduced payment mind you, but $50 for medication instead of $150 may be a deal but it most certainly is not free.  We have 14% sales tax on virtualy everything and high income tax and as a result we have a semi broken health care system that survives despite lack of funding and health care professionals who go to the States because they can pay off their tuition there faster. Find your own solution to health care and let us in on it when you find it.

but $50 for medication instead of $150 may be a deal but it most certainly is not free.

Now my health insurance plan has a co-pay of the first $20 then 20% of the rest.  So I’d pay about $46 for that prescription. 

On the other hand I’m not paying an outrageous amount of taxes for health care.  (I am paying what I consider an outrageous amount of taxes for other things of course.  )

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

The Canadian-style of medical care simply controlls the demand side of ecomomics.  Just this week a female judge ruled that getting on a waiting list is not the same as getting health care!  I interviewed a few real Canadians myself recently.

Communism is evil

Chief: Sorry to differ with you, but they actually control the supply by fixing the price.  When you control the price, market forces(which work through the price mechanism) cannot call forth sufficient supply to meet the demand, resulting in shortages.  Excessive wait times are a symptom of shortage of supply.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I agree with Mike.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

and who’s been messing with the italics tag again?

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

Italics fixed.

The purpose of government shouldn’t be to do good, but simply to refrain from doing evil.

robert108 I may give you that—about supply, or price!

Communism is evil

Chief: Price, in a free market, is the outcome of the relationship between supply and demand.  In a rigged market, it is used to manipulate supply for political/social outcomes.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Markets are also rigged for personal gain.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

Markets are also rigged for personal gain.

I’d agree with that if we’re talking about certain intellectual property laws and the scumbags who abuse them. Other than that, I’d like to hear an argument if you would be so kind. What are you talking about Mike?

Mike,

Perhaps you’ll take a moment to explain what you meant by the use of the word “rigged.”

In a free market, there is “gain” for both participants in a transaction, is there not?  Is that fact so distressing to you that you would describe it in pejorative terms, or do you not understand the concept?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Markets are also rigged for personal gain.

It’s par for the course in socialist systems.  It’s very difficult to do that in a free enterprise system, due to freedom of entry and exit, and free choice of how to spend your money.  As long as the consumer gets what he/she wants, it doesn’t matter who gains, or how much.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

As long as the consumer gets what he/she wants, it doesn’t matter who gains, or how much.

Really? That doesn’t sound very fair to me although I agree that this is how the system was designed to work.

B1…I used “rigged” because it was used by the commentator before me. I assumed that the usage was proper since that individual seems up on such matters.

lik…I agree that in this era of governmental oversight and public scrutiny that rigging for personal gain is much less likely to occur. Since we appear to be discussing at the theoretical level however, the existence of a free market would encourage monopoly and oligopoly practices if the rewards exceeded the perceived risks of being caught. The history of economic development seems pretty clear on this.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

Since we appear to be discussing at the theoretical level however, the existence of a free market would encourage monopoly and oligopoly practices if the rewards exceeded the perceived risks of being caught. The history of economic development seems pretty clear on this.

MikeA: You apparently fail to understand that only govt can “rig” a market, and that is done for social/political gain, which always ends up as personal gain for the politician or politicians involved, since it leads to their re-election or solidifies their power(in a totalitarian system).
Your above statement is wrong in a free market, which means freedom of entry and exit, and private ownership and control of capital.  If a monopoly exists in the short term, the higher than normal profits(not unlimited) attract others to enter the market, and profits soon return to normal levels, due to increased supply.  That is the nature of an unrigged free market.  The only way monopoly can continue for any length of time is with govt regulation preventing free entry into the market in question, and/or govt regulation of capital.  This is not only theoretical; it is also how things work in the real world.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Really? That doesn’t sound very fair to me although I agree that this is how the system was designed to work.Really? That doesn’t sound very fair to me although I agree that this is how the system was designed to work.

Perhaps you could explain your concept of “fair”, then.  As far as I can see, if a business supplies consumer demand, in that their product is what people want, and is sold at a price they consider proper, where the profits go isn’t a factor, unless they go somewhere illegal, like to terrorists or criminals.  In that case, something is being done improperly somewhere along the line, and the market forces have been subverted in some way.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

The only way monopoly can continue for any length of time is with govt regulation preventing free entry into the market in question, and/or govt regulation of capital.

Which is precisely the case with CA energy providers.  The average cost of energy is between 4-8 times higher than in other states, very likely more if energy efficiency standards are factored in.

HG: Long ago, it was decided that public utilities should be a govt-protected monopoly, I guess because they are “public”.  In the case of electricity, this is probably no longer the right strategy, and I cite Enron as a prime example of why that is so.  It was an effort to trade in a commodity whose market price was unknown, as it has always been under govt control.  Talk about a rigged market.
IMO, present technology enables us to have a privately-owned, decentralized electricity market, which would have several advantages, namely a supply commensurate with demand, reasonable prices, rewards for conservation(unlike the penalties under the govt controlled system), greater efficiency due to lower infrastructure costs(no huge centralized generating facilities with their miles of wires to distribute the power) and far less vulnerability to terrorism.
Widespread brownouts and blackouts would be eliminated, as well, resulting in greater convenience to the consumer.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

r108

Your above statement is wrong in a free market, which means freedom of entry and exit, and private ownership and control of capital.  If a monopoly exists in the short term, the higher than normal profits(not unlimited) attract others to enter the market, and profits soon return to normal levels, due to increased supply.

I agree that in the hypothetical free market that what you say is true. I don’t happen to believe that the hypothetical model will work in reality because I can not count on everyone playing by the free market rules but will instead follow human nature and seek whatever advantage they can find and use the advantage to stifle and prevent competition…this is the rational course of action for any self-interested individual.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

Perhaps you could explain your concept of “fair”, then.

Fair in the sense that the market sets the price rather than the supplier. I’ll grant that a monopoly on tricycles isn’t leading to any bonanza for trike makers but a monopoly on electricity or food sure will.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

MikeA: The free market does not require “perfect freedom” to work very well, as the US has illustrated since its inception.  The ideology that requires perfection to work at all is Marxism, which is why it doesn’t work in the real world.  You have it backwards.
If you want to understand self-interest combined with private ownership of both capital and property, read the Invisible Hand doctrine of Adam Smith.  It works in the real world, despite your negative idea about human nature.
In the free enterprise system, the relationship between supply and demand sets the price.  There is no monopoly on food in my country, but there is one on electricity, with the predictable shortages as a consequence.  You see, in a free market, demand creates its own supply, due to the profit motive.  People only buy what they want to buy, and at the price they want to pay.  It’s built into the free enterprise system.  It is the ultimate in fairness.  Govt only screws it up.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Marxism doesn’t work for a variety of reasons including the one you highlight. I respect your faith in the efficacy of the free market but I guess I’m too cynical about the nature of man to believe that it would work in the free world.

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. ”

Arthur Schopenhauer

...I guess I’m too cynical about the nature of man to believe that it would work in the free world.

It’s working in the free world right now, Mike.  I hear you about your cynicism, and find that it is what distinguishes non-ideological socialists from the Marxist-based ideologues.
The truth is, the free enterprise system is based on the essential nature of human beings to be primarily motivated by self-interest.  It’s the competition of a market which allows free entry and exit, coupled with private ownership of property and capital that keeps things in bounds.  Every business has to win over the customers and give them something of equal value in order to get them to part with their money, and the dishonest practitioners tend to go out of business.  The only thing that prevents this is agendized legislation and taxation, which are both inimical to the free market.
In his requirement for “the dictatorship of the proletariat”, Marx revealed his own contempt for the people, and of their desire to benefit themselves and their families.  According to Marx, the proletariat should willingly sacrifice their own goals for “the common good”(to be determined by the political class, of course).
My question to socialists is always: “What is it about being elected or selected to office that suddenly turns an ordinary person into an all-knowing authority on how everyone else should live?”
As a Conservative, I trust the individual over the govt.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!