However the cost to government (and therefore the taxpayer) would be exorbitantly high. Buying all the private hospitals would surely stretch the budget and no elected government could justify seizing these assets.
So SB, the lower costs are for an already established system and do not indicate the high costs of setting up a universal healthcare programme. As I have said before, the industry must be worth trillions (in asset property and lost earnings), such a large acquisition would cost you guys big.

All of the other industrialized countries have what you lot would call “socialized medicine” though in only a couple of them does the government actually run the hospitals and clinics. In most cases, the system is really single-payer insurance. In any case, there are no systems in which doctors or nurses work for free; and nobody advocates that they should. The Brits, the Canadians, the Germans, and the French are not enslaved by their national health systems. The two main penalties they have to pay are: 1) they don’t spend as much on health care as Americans do and 2) they are healthier and live longer. Socialist horrors indeed! Incidentally, there are plenty of reasons to criticize Castro and his regime, but the Cuban health care system is not one of them. If you judge health care systems by their outcomes, it’s a very good system.

Note to mishu: a dictionary is not an encyclopedia. At best, it is only an authority on usage; and trying to argue from dictionary definitions as if they were axioms in geometry is simply a sign of a poor education. Ask any professional logician.

People have at times used the word “Socialism”to refer to “a political theory advocating state ownership of industry” but most of the socialist parties of Europe haven’t advocated the state ownership of industry for a very long time, in the case of the German SPD, for rather more than a hundred years. I don’t know whether Micheal Moore wants to nationalize any coal mines; but Hilary Clinton certainly doesn’t and neither does any Democrat I’m aware of.

f u c k tard?

did that work?

I don’t care if we socialize health care, although, it seems like a feasible option, I just don’t understand why health care has to be so expensive that the average American, like me, avoids going to a hospital when sick or injured, until it develops into a serious problem.

Good health care should be the right of everyone. Healthy people are more productive people, and therefore would benefit business as well.

I think this article is silly, as the the person who wrote it has no objectivity. If you have a problem with the film, review the film. Seriously, what kind of child hopes for someone to act like a hypocrite? Don’t you have better things to do?

I’m at work, getting paid by having a number on a federally backed bank account go up. That number represents the number of little green-ish pieces of cloth paper I am entitled to. Those papers have value only as promises from the same federal government that backs the account “value.” Am I a socialist?

Even if the concept of a market and of trade are somehow “natural,” whatever that means, a large-scale economy _requires_ central intervention. I sure as hell wouldn’t keep my savings in an account not backed by a stable government; would you?

The entire system of currency, and, even more so, the modern emergence of the credit system have taken global trade faaaaaaar away from the Adam Smith enamored libertarian fantasy world. Economics, it turns out, is more complicated than the dogma of “State bad, private business good.”

Policies should be judged based on the real-world impacts of the specific change they make, not ideological concerns about “state force” and stupidity like that. In this case, a lot of experts believe that we could reduce the overall cost and vastly improve coverage and access for our health care system by making it a public institution. The very economic principles that libertarians swear by dictate that HMOs will have additional overhead and profit margins and will do everything they can to deny coverage whenever possible. We also have plenty of empirical evidence; most of the first world has something Americans would consider “socialised medicine,” and a lot of those countries have substantially better medical care than we do.

I don’t know why a country the size of the United States would find it impossible to create a universal health care system. The government runs a universal retirement insurance system–Social Security–very efficiently. Even the rightists who oppose social security for ideological reasons never claim that its bureaucracy is corrupt or wasteful. For that matter, Medicare is notably more efficient than private insurance companies, the really wasteful and useless bureaucracy in America.

By the way, the nations of Europe aren’t as big as the U.S.; but some of them are nevertheless quite large. Germany has a population of 82 million, for example. Does something magic happen between 82 million and 300 million? Maybe the U.S. is too big to have a single army and navy as well.

In fact you guys will use any argument to defend a position you never ever really question or want anybody else to ever question. In this respect, as in so many others, you stand in tradition of the other defenders of the indefensible. Too bad the tobacco lobby isn’t hiring.

I see a major problem with comparing socialized health care systems in Europe, Canada, etc. to the US. They can’t even be reasonably compared to these other countries. Nationalizing health care in a COUNTRY that is about the size of a large US CITY or small state is a different ball game from attempting to nationalize health care for the entire US country. Before we impose such a national disaster on our entire country, the Democrats (and Republicans) should focus on having success with a single payer system in a place like NYC, or in a few states first at the very least. In fact, I think that health care should be entirely the responsibility of individual states.

How did we survive in the 1800s?

You don’t look that old, Chief!

Proof- I believe, though tort reform is the most egregious, you must address each at the same time. The system is not just out of allignment, it is based on basic premises that have proven to be inaccurate. Self-regulation, competition, and efficiency are nothing more than call words for the offending industries. These industries have been given 30 years of free reign and we now have the most expensive (by a factor of 10) and the 38th rate health sysem in the world.

Bat One – Do you rant like this every time you pay sales tax? You must be an insufferably annoying person to have around if that’s the case.

None of us would be nearly as well off as we are without organised society. We wouldn’t have roads, communication or even a functioning economy to buy and sell in. Some form of public spending is a prerequisite to modern civilisation. Instead of bitching and moaning that something is evil and theft because it’s paid for with taxes, look at the practical implications of enacting the policy.

Besides, it’s not like your wage/salary represents the “natural” amount you would earn. I don’t know about you, but my job skills as a PHP coder would be 100% useless in the “state of nature.” The wage/salary you are paid is the result of the entirety of the current economic and political order. In short, your pay is what it is because the tax rate is what it is. The market “naturally” pushes wages down to subsistence level for those who do not own productive resources. If you live in the US, you are almost certainly being paid an unsustainably high rate at the expense of what the global economy does to the third world. I’m not gonna go off on a rant about redistributing all our money to poor countries, but just remember that you are not entitled to, nor did you “naturally earn on your own merits” one cent of that money you hate to pay in taxes. If you were on your own, you’d be lucky to have food and shelter. Welcome to grown up society.

Socialised Medicine does not mean becoming socialist.

Actually, it does. Socialism is, among other things, using the economic system to achieve certain social goals, at the expense of economic efficiency and freedom of choice. So, socializing medicine is completely socialist. It is the definition of socialism. It is the govt taking over a private sector business concern.

I don’t mind if you use Michael Moore’s houses, as long as you don’t profit from it.

See, I’m as generous as he is!

Robert108 – I guess it’s really hard work to deny coverage for needed healthcare, ooohhh and also, to sit at a desk (or on the golf course) at some company you are probably destroying (these days anyway) while much lower paid individuals do the real work of making the company run – until you lay them off (take their money / healthcare) to make a quick gain in “shareholder value” – again – redistribution of wealth…. It’s OK when it’s the rich, but not the other 98% of society. BTW – I think we should stop paying for roads, the military, oh – and the salaries of the president and the rest of the jackasses in the government too… I’m sure our country will get along fine without those shared resources as well.

So, boiling it down:
“I’m posting this movie up and when Michael Moore tells me to take it down, I’m going to call him a hypocrite.”

You, sir, are a fucktard.

The Weinsteins have released a statement that they are on the hunt for any copies of Sicko floating around on the net.

Just a heads up.

Ahhh.. also, what is broken in the healthcare system in the US??? well, let’s see shall we?

My son who is diabetic, has several prescriptions that he must have or he will die. We pay hundreds of dollars every month for these supplies even though I already pay $450 dollars every month for health insurance (through my job) including prescription coverage. I am inundated with piddly little medical bills for $20 here $100 there for tests and such because the insurance company won’t pay the whole bill. They add up over time to thousands a year. Do you want me to go on? If it’s just the insurance companies than I guess they need to be regulated more heavily…. but oops – I forgot, regulation might mean fewer multi million dollar bonuses – I guess that’s a non starter too.

Man if our healthcare system is not broken I don’t know what is… I am really sick and tired of hearing “socialist” as some kind of boogey man.

This certainly is a fascinating thread to read through. Not least for the irony.

Michael Moore sings the praises of a government controlled, government mandated health care system, in which everyone is forced to surrender a portion of their wealth or earnings, and their respective freedom of choice regarding healthcare so that government can (hopefully!) provide healthcare for all.

And the people here who enthusiastically support Moore’s generosity with other people’s money and other people’s freedom are themselves indignant that someone else (Rob) might be infringing on Moore’s intellectual property rights?

Amazing how hypocritically silly some people on the Left can be.

He also said this about his last movie, Fahrenheit 911. Weren’t you around for that? I know I was. I downloaded it, watched it, waited for the FBI… nothing.

Sorry to hear about you being the last to know. I’m sure you’re happy with your soapbox, though.

When a business gets abusive you can always change companies, but you can’t do so when government’s involved.

TW: Good one, and there’s another thing. Unless the govt protects the monopoly with regulation(public utils, for instance), the higher monopoly prices attract other investors to the field, and prices return to premonopoly levels. Long term monopolies are always due to govt. In highly socialized systems, the State is the ultimate monopoly.

It’s everyone’s responsibility that if they are able to add to society, not take away from it like the deadbeats on welfare and in Congress do.

Puzzle, you can just hit the play button above and watch the whole movie.

“I’ve seen it, and there isn’t anything worth discussing. Unless you’d like to help explain the big, sloppy wet kiss Moore gives communist dictator Fidel Castro.

Do you even care about all the people Castro has murdered, tortured and imprisoned to stay in power or do you liberals forgive that stuff…as long as the state provides health care? ”

Hey Rob, This is a liberals here , and yeah, I dont give a rats ass about all the people Castro has murdered tortured etc.. Plain and simple, If thats what it takes then let it be, sometimes you have to do that to stay in power. Are you that much of a one sided closeminded tard to not realise that any leader of a powerfull country will eliminate whomever is a threat to them? USA does it all the damn time, our media just throws cuba, france etc in our face all the time so we end up hating them for no good reason..

God Bless Cuba, God Bless free Health care, God Bless Socialism.

Robert108: I hate to break it to you – but my view ofthe business world is from working for fortune 500 companies for 15 years. Also – I can not “choose” to by my son’s diabetes supplies… If I don’t “choose” to buy them – he will die. Hence – the “free market” can charge whatever it likes – because I will pay whatever it takes to keep him alive. Get it? I already have no choice.

Keep it up though – and the “leftie” “not getting it” insults are good too.

DS,

Your son’s medical situation is sad, though hardly unique. I say that having been through a similarly long and horrific situation with a family member too. But if you honestly believe that your family’s tragedy justifies government actions to limit my earnings or my freedom to choose my own path for myself and my family, you are very much mistaken.

If you were to buy a gun, and hold up a local bank, armored car, or bingo parlor, at least the thievery would be your own. And who know, you might generate a whole lot more public sympathy and support for your plight as well.

Robert108: The government allowing monopolies is not socialism – it’s uber capitalism. The attitude is that company X must be doing something right – so don’t regulate competition – or “level the playing field” That’s an afront to your beloved “free market”. The point is that the goal of any company providing health care services is going to be to keep costs low and profits up. Most companies do not believe in providing a good product anymore as a way to keep customers – they just shuffle numbers around and / or rip people off as long as they can.

Proposing that we let people starve.

If someone refuses to help themselves they don’t deserve help from me.

My help goes to those that are unable to help themselves.

Robert108: The government allowing monopolies is not socialism – it’s uber capitalism. Wrong. It’s the govt managing the economy for social purposes=socialism. What you call “capitalism” I call
“free people making free choices”. The attitude is that company X must be doing something right -
so don’t regulate competition – or “level the playing field” That’s an afront to your beloved “free market”. The free market means freedom of entry and exit, and responsibility for the outcome. Govt interference prevents all that. The point is that the goal of any company providing health care services is going to be to keep costs low and profits up.Actually, it’s to supply as much of the demand as possible at a price that enables profit. When govt reduces the number of competitors, which it does through regulation, that process becomes distorted. Most companies do not believe in providing a good product anymore as a way to keep customers – they just shuffle numbers around and /or rip people off as long as they can.

Police and Fire Protection are services that government should provide.

Should?
Why should I be forced to pay for police work just because someone failed to protect their life or property and allowed themself to be victimized?

If you can’t afford to hire a private investigator, maybe you should have thought of that before and gotten an insurance that covered it, since you couldn’t even keep a common thief out of your own home.
It’s about time people accepted a bare minimum of personal responsibility and investigated their own crimes anyway.

And why is it my problem if a house burns down? If I don’t live there, why should I pay people for putting out the fire?

JH: Social Security is going broke! How “efficient” is that?
As far as healthcare is concerned, the real choice isn’t between one socialized system or another, but abolishing the socialism already in the system, and returning it to the market, on both the supply and demand sides. Collectivism is inefficient, but it’s very nature. Free people making free choices is the way to go.

It is not socialist to contribute back to the society that wade you wealthy in the first place.

If “society” made us wealthy, why are there poor people? It must be “society’s” fault, then, eh?
Maybe it’s a difference in individual effort and achievement.

Why is it that so many, especially right wing, americans are so afraid of/put so little trust into the government? Isn’t the government the body that is supposed to serve its people in the best possible way?

A government of the people, by the people for the people…unfortunately, some of the people run Enron and HMOs and Ponzi schemes. Some of the people are socialists and whack-a-doos.

I put as much trust in government as I do in people. You can trust them, but not all of them. That’s why we put locks on doors…

Indeed, one of the problems with the current situation is that uninsured people aren’t paying into the system

So, the choice to not buy health insurance is a “problem”?

Jim Harrison, I’ve lived in Germany and Canada for a stretch of time. I was paid relatively the same amount of money for what I made working in the states, a very middle class salary. I can certainly tell you from my experience that I had to give up over half my money to the government for a service to minimize medical risks — a service that would cost a few grand in the states. It’s not less expensive for the middle class to have nationalized medicine. Nor, do they have better service.

“And why is it my problem if a house burns down? If I don’t live there, why should I pay people for putting out the fire?
”
Some people are not selfish pricks like yourself and think the good for all is better then just the good for one.. they would make sacrifies in their own life to help out the whole of the human race… this idea will catch on in the future when your era dies out and us youngins have to band together to fix all the mistakes that were made by selfish pricks who only had their best intent in mind.. its us against them plain and simple.

So the people that are demanding everyone else pay their bills care for all while the people who want to take care of themselves without burdening anyone are selfish.

Yes, thats *exactly* what I said.. execpt that its not, its not even close, your selfish prick ass just re worded everything into a whole new negative idea just to make you seem right! Wow, kinda like Michael moore does, you 2 are in the same boat.. What it all comes down to is that “your” way is not good, no matter how well you defend it will not work out for a country our size with all different types of people.. yes, we all should care for the lazy poor people who wont support themselves, thats how it goes.. If you dont like it, move to your own country , your way is failing..
or you could just reword everything I say to something completly different to suite your selfish ways. whatever, waste of my time anyways

bambigirl432. Hello. Haven’t seen you much here, but I will reply. Most people’ s life expectancy in the 1800s was much less than today obviously. Most of this was caused by communicable diseases. Anton Van Leeuwenhoek’s discovery in 1700 that “little animals” lived in our mouths led to the discovery of micro-organisms. His discovery was a private discovery. Not government sponsored.
Communicable diseases were erased in the 1900s. But, people’s behavior causes much early death today.

For the record, Social Security administrative costs are less than 1% of its budget. Even James Wilson, a conservative political scientist, calls the program exemplary in his book Bureaucracy. The administrative costs for Medicare are also remarkably low, especially in comparison to the extremely high costs of administrating private insurance.

By the way, universal health care does not mean free health care. Indeed, one of the problems with the current situation is that uninsured people aren’t paying into the system as they would be in a rational arrangement. The choice isn’t between health care you pay for and free health care, it’s between an efficient system with better results per dollar and the current system with its gruesome complexity and lousy outcomes.

You all need to box the quotes you’re talking about so people can understand what you’re trying to say.

Actually our system is doing just fine, it’s the countries where deadbeats like you have gotten you way that things are bad.

Hmm, well being you have no idea who I am I am guessing that since I have a view that is different from yours I must be the poor lazy man? I am pretty sure I make quite a bit more money then you and I pay my way entierly and help out others who are in need, its just in me. I will probably end up paying for *your* lazy ass in the long run if my ideals were to come true. Blah.. so very borning this is.

Yes, so very boring you are, rob.

I would set the total income of most regulars here against your paltry pile of pennies any day of the week, twice on Wednesday cause it sucks. You are not literate enough to type a coherent comment, so we have a bit of trouble believing you have any employment that does not include the sentence “Would you like fries with that?”

Yes, healthcare in America is screwed up. Why? Because lawyers run it, not Doctors. As for insurance companies, what is the average annual profit margin on their operations? How much is collected to be spent on medical services/equipment/pharmaceuticals? And how much actually is required for administration?

As for curiosity’s query, if you need socialism and its effects explained to you it will do no good. Unless you are like 10 yrs old. Be glad to help you out in that case.

Just thought I would give a response.

1. The fact that Mr. Moore says he does not care if you download and share it does not mean its legal, nor his decision to make. If I help program Windows Vista, and tell people I think they should download and share it, it does not make my opinion or notion valid as I personally don’t own that right, and neither does Mr. Moore.

2. If you think for a moment that socialism is universal health care you have a very warped view of government and government systems. We (the US) already have “departments” which deal with national systems. In fact, we have a department of Health and Human Resources. Unlike others however, transportation, homeland security, HHR does basically nothing besides run the FDA and some other smaller agencies.

3. The focus of the movie (Sicko) is to show the health care system for what it is. If you think for a second it is better or more effective than universal health care you are lying to yourself. The problem is not that it is awful, or socialistic or some other propaganda but rather the cost.

4. To address the cost, yes, it would be a tax increase. The problem is however not the tax increase, but the amount being paid. But why is this amount so great? Why do we pay SO very much for medication? Because they can charge it, and we will pay, because the government *CAN* regulate it, but decides not too. If they did, the tax increase would be non-exsistent as medicare and medicade and the multitude of special interest laws would be out the door.

5. Government Regulation is part of a successful government. It is there responsibility to protect its citizens and prosper with them, not on them. If you believe for one moment, that government regulation is bad, then you have a big problem. Sure too much is a bad thing, IE China, but too little does not exist because it is a system that simply does not work.

6. I don’t believe that regulation is needed for many things, things where a competitive market demands a price war. Every industry fights this and it is what capitolism is build upon, the free market place. The problem is as old as capitolism however, price fixing. Both the oil and health care industries do this, the oil can do it easier because they price fix EVERYONE. Check oil in prices in Europe or China, its not cheap anywhere. Medication and Health Care however IS something that is fixed firmly upon the US.

These are not socialist comments, nor are they conservative or liberal. I am neither a democrat nor republican because both are lying constantly.

Think for yourself, and fight for what you believe in.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

Bat-

My irony detector just went off. You respond (incompletely) to my substantive point, accuse me of not making substantive points and just using ad homs, and then proceed with some insubstantial ad homs and a lame baseball analogy.

Look, I don’t care if you own your own companies. The market that you trade in, the electricity you run your shop with, the social norms that govern your business relations… All these are things that exist only because of the complex, collective nature of the modern economy. Dumbed down analogies work great for rhetorical purposes, but it’s an incredibly naive and oversimplified view of economics to say that you naturally make X and the government takes Y off the top. If not for all the things that the government does with that Y, the entire market would be different. That doesn’t just mean your X would be smaller; it means the very sorts of things we would trade in, the ways we would interact, the exchange medium we would select and so on would be entirely different.

You keep up with the inflated libertarian rhetoric about robbing you and yours to give medicine to others. My point is that this sort of rhetoric is nothing more than self-serving propaganda. If you have truly thought out the economic implications and have a reasoned analysis of the effect of extra taxes for socialized medicine on your salary, then by all means, share. Demonizing any public program solely because it “comes from taxes and taxes are bad” is not gonna cut it.

I’m not saying your particular situation doesn’t matter; I’m asking you to explain it, provide warrants for your arguments and explain the significance.

DC raised a very important point: medicine isn’t really optional. It’s a cost of living, which means people with enough means will pay whatever it costs and people without will be in serious jeopardy. Whether you have choices or not is irrelevant; what matters is how good your best choice is. Currently, rather than competing with each other, HMOs collude with each other and take advantage of state regulation and we all lose. The solution that I and many others favour is providing a public option which would be better than the current bevy of bad choices. I don’t know exactly how much it would cost, or even if it would cost more than the current system, but there’s plenty of empirical evidence that proves it’s possible.

If your solution is that the government butts out so that real competition can emerge, that may be an idea worth exploring. However, I’m not going to take it on faith, or on rhetoric. When it comes to major policy decisions that will directly affect the quality of life for millions, I’m an empiricist and a realist. The argument you need to make here is that this option would result in the best outcome, not that it is more ideologically attractive.

To put it bluntly: I don’t give a rat’s ass if “taxation is theft” or “we shouldn’t have to pay for people who make bad choices.” What I care about is what our national health care policy is and what that policy means in terms of cost, accessibility and quality of health care.

1. The fact that Mr. Moore says he does not care if you download and share it does not mean its legal, nor his decision to make. If I help program Windows Vista, and tell people I think they should download and share it, it does not make my opinion or notion valid as I personally don’t own that right, and neither does Mr. Moore.

2. If you think for a moment that socialism is universal health care you have a very warped view of government and government systems. We (the US) already have “departments” which deal with national systems. In fact, we have a department of Health and Human Resources. Unlike others however, transportation, homeland security, HHR does basically nothing besides run the FDA and some other smaller agencies.

3. The focus of the movie (Sicko) is to show the health care system for what it is. If you think for a second it is better or more effective than universal health care you are lying to yourself. The problem is not that it is awful, or socialistic or some other propaganda but rather the cost.

4. To address the cost, yes, it would be a tax increase. The problem is however not the tax increase, but the amount being paid. But why is this amount so great? Why do we pay SO very much for medication? Because they can charge it, and we will pay, because the government *CAN* regulate it, but decides not too. If they did, the tax increase would be non-exsistent as medicare and medicade and the multitude of special interest laws would be out the door.

5. Government Regulation is part of a successful government. It is there responsibility to protect its citizens and prosper with them, not on them. If you believe for one moment, that government regulation is bad, then you have a big problem. Sure too much is a bad thing, IE China, but too little does not exist because it is a system that simply does not work.

6. I don’t believe that regulation is needed for many things, things where a competitive market demands a price war. Every industry fights this and it is what capitolism is build upon, the free market place. The problem is as old as capitolism however, price fixing. Both the oil and health care industries do this, the oil can do it easier because they price fix EVERYONE. Check oil in prices in Europe or China, its not cheap anywhere. Medication and Health Care however IS something that is fixed firmly upon the US.

These are not socialist comments, nor are they conservative or liberal. I am neither a democrat nor republican because both are lying constantly.

Think for yourself, and fight for what you believe in.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

1. The fact that Mr. Moore says he does not care if you download and share it does not mean its legal, nor his decision to make. If I help program Windows Vista, and tell people I think they should download and share it, it does not make my opinion or notion valid as I personally don’t own that right, and neither does Mr. Moore.

2. If you think for a moment that socialism is universal health care you have a very warped view of government and government systems. We (the US) already have “departments” which deal with national systems. In fact, we have a department of Health and Human Resources. Unlike others however, transportation, homeland security, HHR does basically nothing besides run the FDA and some other smaller agencies.

3. The focus of the movie (Sicko) is to show the health care system for what it is. If you think for a second it is better or more effective than universal health care you are lying to yourself. The problem is not that it is awful, or socialistic or some other propaganda but rather the cost.

4. To address the cost, yes, it would be a tax increase. The problem is however not the tax increase, but the amount being paid. But why is this amount so great? Why do we pay SO very much for medication? Because they can charge it, and we will pay, because the government *CAN* regulate it, but decides not too. If they did, the tax increase would be non-exsistent as medicare and medicade and the multitude of special interest laws would be out the door.

5. Government Regulation is part of a successful government. It is there responsibility to protect its citizens and prosper with them, not on them. If you believe for one moment, that government regulation is bad, then you have a big problem. Sure too much is a bad thing, IE China, but too little does not exist because it is a system that simply does not work.

6. I don’t believe that regulation is needed for many things, things where a competitive market demands a price war. Every industry fights this and it is what capitolism is build upon, the free market place. The problem is as old as capitolism however, price fixing. Both the oil and health care industries do this, the oil can do it easier because they price fix EVERYONE. Check oil in prices in Europe or China, its not cheap anywhere. Medication and Health Care however IS something that is fixed firmly upon the US.

These are not socialist comments, nor are they conservative or liberal. I am neither a democrat nor republican because both are lying constantly.

Think for yourself, and fight for what you believe in.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

All these are things that exist only because of the complex, collective nature of the modern economy.

Wrong. They exist because of people acting in their own self-interest and that of their families. They exist because we voted to have them that way, and worked hard to pay the taxes that finance those services. In our country, the building block of the economy is the individual, not some imaginary collective. We don’t have to agree to some totalitarian ideology, we just have to do what’s best for ourselves, according to our own decisions.

I wonder how many Christians there are posting here. How about you Chief? You a god fearin’ man? Proposing that we let people starve.

European countries have enacted huge taxes on certain foods and alcohol to keep the population more healthy.

Why is this a bad thing? Obesity levels are rising and it is far better if people are healthy.
You pay for your unhealthy and even harmful lifestyle. Ultimately, you know that all this stuff is bad for you and you learn to consume it in moderation, if at all. Let the plebs destroy themselves and pay for it (because they’ll be the ones making the most of our socialised healthcare), if that is what they wish!

hey i just wanted to thank you for posting this video

Anna, SS. Thanks for the support for personal responsibility. “Those who do not work, let them not eat.”

Moore may not mind…but the film distribution company releasing the movie, Weinstein Co., may very well. It’ll be their lawyers that will write you a letter, not Moore’s production company.

The Weinsteins have released a statement that they are on the hunt for any copies of Sicko floating around on the net.

No surprise there. They certainly have either the copyright or an exclusive dealings contract that gives them the copyright for some limited time. (although Moore doubtlessly gets a cut before copyright reverts back to him)

That’s right,Bigwig …it is wrong to be lazy and not work (unwilling). It is not wrong to be unemployed (unable), but it is wrong to be unwilling to work and to take responsibility to provide for yourself and family. (as in Thessalonian). If you are not willing to work, you should not eat. Lazy people should not be allowed to live off others.

Blat One, I did click page 2, resulting in the URL Not Found message. And there’s no need for insutls, or am I calling you names? Do I say anything about your mom sucking dick at the truck stop? No, I’m not. Anyway, the link is back up now. And it’s not Bipolar. You did learn how to read in school, i assume?

Proof,

“And you don’t believe there was anything the least bit subliminal in presenting this in this time in the coming election cycle, that “our crusading Hillary tried before and failed, so we need to give her another shot”?

Answer: No. He has at best mild contempt for Hillary Clinton, although I’m sure he’d prefer she win the election over any of the Republican contenders.

And you don’t think that the whole movie in bringing up Hillary’s trademark issue isn’t a gift from fellow traveler Moore?

Answer: No. Whether you agree with him or not (I happen to, but could offhand list ten serious objections to the way he massages or distorts the truth to fit his message in the film), I think he cares about this issue. He did not go to all the trouble of MAKING A FEATURE LENGTH DOCUMENTARY as a favor or ‘gift’ to a politician he has at best mixed feelings about. Oh, and “fellow traveler”? Conservatives who casually toss antique phrases like that around are as obnoxious as liberals who use “fascist” to describe conservatives.

and BTW bigwig … the only person that will starve to death is someone that chooses starvation over working to prevent themselves from starving.

I have posted the full movie for download. One link, one download, and no torrent. Enjoy-http://zerosworld.net

lmfao! Moore has done it! The fact that we are all posting and discussing his l8est movie proves that Moore hit a sensitive nerve with all you right wing fascists. If you didnt feel threatened, you wouldn’t bother posting here, or anywhere else for that matter. LOL! GOTCHA! Or do you see me posting about that fascist nazi pretending to be a democratic president George Bush anywhere? No. And we Germans know that evil doesn’t always announce itself by it’s true name and often comes disguised as a blessing. Bush uses the same rhetoric and the same tactics as Hitler did. Neonazis today agree that Hitler should never have done what he did with the jews, that that was his (Hitler’s) biggest mistake. George Bush learned from Hitler’s mistakes. I’ll spell it out for you: George W. Bush = Adolf Hitler. USA, Sieg Heil!

The deleted part of your name, spells T.W.A.T. One. If you must throw a tantrum, maybe I can help you with that a little. Let me know if you need more insults. Unless you choose to start acting like an adult. But then I dont know how old you are and perhaps you are really still in puberty.

Again you and I get caught up in a two-way based on the semantic differences between English and American English.

Wrong. It’s your condescending attitude.

MOORE may not care but you can bet your ass Canal Films do! Much like Stwart and Colbert don’t care, much like Matt Parker doesn’t care.. much like MANY artists don’t care. Hate to break it to you, THEY DON’T OWN THE COPYRIGHT! It isn’t their PLACE to care. More to the point, they have no legal standing to have an opinion AT ALL.

I would be very surprised if you don’t get a DMCA take down order pretty darn quick. If not, wait a while. Pre-distrubtion of films before release comes with a jail term. Enjoy!

Bat One, could you elaborate on how implementing social medicine is a step towards socialism? Is Social Security a step towards Stalinist Communism, by your logic? It’s still a free market and I think as long as that remains, we dont need to fear communism occuring in this country. On the other hand what this country does need to fear is becoming another Reich. Except that it Nazi ideology will be substituted with christian fundamentalist ideology.

I apologise for my out of line comment earlier which prompted you, Bat One, to get out of line as well. But what is happening to this country makes my blood boil. We too thought we are the masters, and we must bring “freedom” to the world, like a father that knows what is best for their children and must force them to their own benefit. It’s an arrogant and dangerous attitude. The cradle of democracy as we know it, the country that practically invented free journalism, the birth place of human equality (womens lib, Martin Luther King, etc) is today betraying the very ideals it has fought for in WWII. We germans have always looked up to the US, until W made his appearance. We have had our bad guy appear, and we learned from it. It’s so sad too see that the very country that liberated us is now succumbing to the same forces we had to suffer from. Maybe W doesnt deserve the label I gave him earlier, but he is sure employing the same tactics as our mark of shame, Hitler did. Maybe now people understand when they ask, how could the germans have let that happen? What’s happening in the US right now, is perhaps not the same, but it is damn similar. And this time there’s no one to stop it.

I realise the topic is “Calling MM’s Socialist Bluff”, but in order to get to the bottom of the topic, I think we need to step back and take in the whole picture rather than just one narrow viewpoint.

Saw it last night.
Looking foward to the reaction/spin in the US.
My cynical guess is that HMOs and medical managers will soften up a bit in their denials until america gets back onto the important issues like paris hilton and then it’s back to business as usual. Hospitals will probably start dumping those old ladies that can’t pay their bills in front of places that don’t have security cameras.

My optimistic guess is that universal health care becomes a reality.10 years later the US looks around and says “hey, this wasn’t so bad. Everyone seems happier and less stressed and it really is nice to know that if the bottom falls out on me that the hospital won’t dump me on the street”

Having lived and experienced both taxes and health care in the US and now Australia I can easily say that the higher taxes are well worth the comfort of knowing that I won’t be dumped by the side of the road if I can’t pay my bills.
I have yet to do the math but a general calculation tells me that it’s even cheaper to pay higher taxes and receive health care than pay somewhat lower taxes while paying 4000.00 a year to be somewhat covered. At 46 with kidney disease in my family and being self employed in this wonderfully profitable world of entertainment this is incredible peace of mind.
As always YMMV……

Thanks for proving my point robert108…

Nope. I was referring to you.

Whistler et al,
Here in the UK, we also have private medical insurance available, as well as the National Health Service. If one prefers speed of treatment over cost, then one goes private. The good thing is, is that if you do, then your insurance company will be much more likely to pay for your treatment, because they want to keep your custom.
As far as stifling research, there are plenty of advanced medical and pharmaceutical industries here, both private and state funded.

Look, this business of only trading insults is unimaginative, time-consuming, and boring to me. And winning such a contest is hardly much of an accomplishment, anyway.

Agreed.

And I am truly sorry to hear about your relatives suffering the horrid consequences of Nazi Germany. I really am.
In fact, I am so sorry, not only for you and your family, but for everyone who had to undergo the horror, that I tell myself if I see something similar happening, I must step up to bat. That is my German heritage. I dont feel I ever had a choice, I was born into that culture and I cant just pretend it’s none of my business.

But I do stand by my point that, while Bush is not a Nazi, he does employ many of the very same stategies as the Nazis did (eg: Hitler said “If you are not for us, you are against us” Bush said the same thing, almost word for word). The concentration camps and the unspeakable horror and murdering is what more moderate Neo-Nazis today criticize about Hitler. I may not have lived or even suffered under hitler personally, but I attended a german school in which the topic of the Third Reich is a mandatory subject in both history and social classes. So the horror of the Nazis is still alive today, in the minds of most Germans. Not to diminish what happened to your relatives, far from it in fact, but I probably know more about Hitler than you do, because I grew up over there. Most Germans today feel they have a responsibility towards the world to not ever let that kind of thing happen again (in fact that is the motto “Never again” seen at the entrance of the concentration camps open to the public today. And that is way I react so emotional when I see similar things happen. Especially when one of the 2 countries I love is affected. My dad was in the US Army, stationed in Germany, married a German girl (my mom) and stayed there. So I grew up in both cultures – always looking up and defending US policies towards other, mostly “left-wing” Germans. But now has come the time for me where I feel I need to draw a line. I love the US and feel patriotic, and that’s why I bring it up, again and again and again. I do not want this to ever happen again, even if it’s without concentration camps this time around. I would do the same for Germany. Maybe I overreact. But if I do it is because I love this country and feel patriotic towards the US and I don’t want something similar to happen here. Patriotism, by the way, is also a dirty word in Germany these days, because of the Nazis.

Once again, I don’t believe that Bush is a Nazi, but what he does and says bears scary parallels to Hitler. The fundamental difference between Bush and Hitler is ideology – Bush’s ideology is one of Christian fundamentalism, whereas Hitler’s was some obscure cult. Therefore, Bush cant be a Nazi because he doesnt share that ideology. But both are metaphysical ideologies., not political ideologies. I even go so far as to say that Bush got one thing straight, and that is that this country (as others) needs a strong leader and actually lead the country rather than just administering government. And that’s where Bush stepped in, just like Hitler did back then. Roosevelt, Thatcher, Kohl, Mitterand – they are all right up there with Bush and Hitler too – not in that they are/were Nazis but that they stepped in to lead a country when it needed a strong leader, people who take upon themselves to decide what’s best for the country.

I would rather see myself error, than to have to answer to my grandchildren as to why I didn’t do anything. That’s what I asked my German grandfather. Can you imagine what his answer was?

The government runs a universal retirement insurance system–Social Security–very efficiently.

That’s got to be the most stupid comment ever. Right now it looks like I’m going to get a 1-2% return on the money I’m paying in.

You call that efficient!

You are willing to trade freedom for the promise of security; please don’t force your choice on the rest of us. What happens if you consume a diet the State doesn’t consider healthy? Think about it.

The promise of security feels more like freedom than putting my life in the hands of a profit driven medical system.
Australia is getting as obese as the US but there has yet to be a tax on fatty/suger food. Your example sounds overly dramatic and exaggerated.
A more realistic scenario is one of the smoker.
There is an enormous tax on tobacco which easily pays for those who choose to use it.
Do you prefer to put the “smokers tax” into the hands of those profit driven insurance companies that you already pay? Do you really think they will come up with an honest figure for you?
What you don’t seem to know is that you pay about 3x more than I pay for private health here and I still have the peace of mind of knowing that if the bottom drops out and one of those distant genetic faults pops up that I will not be dumped on the side of the road. Sorry, but you don’t have that “freedom”.

Bipedal Humanoid: I thought about challenging your ridiculous assertions that “Once again, I don’t believe that Bush is a Nazi, but what he does and says bears scary parallels to Hitler.” Your first mistake is that you are being indoctrinated by the liberal, America-hating European media. Your challenge that people not growing up in Germany don’t have your degree of understanding of Hitler could be reversed, in that, you don’t live in America and your views are influenced by stories skewed by your media out of anti-American fervor.

Europe is almost wholly socialist and while our Democrats would love to have our country be more like Europe; we are not a socialist country. Because of that and the green eyed jealousy over our prosperity and military power, our charitable giving and our saving Europe’s butt twice in the last century, all combined has made a majority of Europeans rabidly Anti-American. Add to that the fact that Bush and Tony Blair had the guts to stand up to militant Islam, while Europe is terrified of Islamic populations in their countries and their desire to do business with Islamic dictatorships and it all adds up to Europe hates Bush.

We are a liberty loving, rude, often cowboy like country; we make mistakes but I assure you that neither Bush nor the majority of our country are anything like Hitler or Nazi Germany.

Bopal,

Have a little patience, please. I didn’t forget you. Indeed I have quite a bit to say in response to some of the “inoffensive” drivel you’ve been posting here.

I have a fairly full morning schedule, but perhaps later I’ll have time for you. Meanwhile, let me offer you a quick suggestion: forget the sarcasm… you’re just not very good at it, which makes your efforts a far less effective weapon. Tough to be impressed, much less intimidated by someone for whom you feel embarrassed.

You live in Norway, so clearly you knowledge of healthcare in America is limited to the socialist propaganda in your media. Nice try though.

From Merriam-Webster:

Main Entry: 2sub·stan·tive
Pronunciation: ‘s&b-st&n-tiv; 2c and 3 also s&b-’stan-tiv
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French sustentif
1 : being a totally independent entity
2 a : real rather than apparent : FIRM ; also : PERMANENT, ENDURING b : belonging to the substance of a thing : ESSENTIAL c : expressing existence d : requiring or involving no mordant
3 a : having the nature or function of a grammatical substantive b : relating to or having the character of a noun or pronominal term in logic
4 : considerable in amount or numbers : SUBSTANTIAL
5 : creating and defining rights and duties — compare PROCEDURAL
6 : having substance : involving matters of major or practical importance to all concerned

BH: Very strange of you to excuse your own bad reply to someone else by claiming reactivity, and then not recognizing the legitimacy of replying to violent attack with retaliation. Strange hypocrisy on your part.

BH,

I wouldn’t presume to speak for Robert108, but for myself, I would still like to see some specific examples of statements or actions by President Bush or those in his administration that are indicative of, or similar to, the actions or rationalizations by the Nazis. If you are going to make such a bald-faced, and to my mind contemptible comparison between the US president and Adolph Hitler, you need to have something more substantive and objective to back it up than a “cut ‘n paste” rant taken from DU, Koz, or HuffPo.

I’m waiting for your next excuse. Anything substantive, or are you all reaction?

I said:

Let the plebs destroy themselves and pay for it (because they’ll be the ones making the most of our socialised healthcare), if that is what they wish!

and

I think of myself as neither superior nor inferior to my peers, maybe less (or more) learned however.

R108 said:

I consider anyone who refers to a large number of human beings as “plebs”, who considers them to be inferior in some way, and who doesn’t respect their own judgment about what to do in their lives as condescending

Substitute ignorant for plebs.
See second quote box.
Note I said “…if that is what they wish!” – is that not respecting their own judgement?

An aside:

A British celebrity chef, Jamie Oliver, recently spearheaded a campaign to encourage children to eat more healthily, especially in school. At one school he visited a concerned mother came to speak to him, worried because her child wouldn’t be getting the food ‘he’ wanted. As she sat there, moaning that her son should be able to eat junk food at lunch time “because that’s all he ever eats”, she proceeded to give her four month old child Coca-cola from a teated bottle.

Think what you like and you may not care what other people eat (neither do I, incidentally), but what they feed their children should be of concern. If they are too pig-ignorant to realise that what they are doing is harmful to (themselves and) their children, then yes, they should pay for it.

BH,

While you are looking about for evidence to substantiate your claims about Mr. Bush, here’s a little something to keep in the back of your mind and consider.

It’s time for a lesson in what we used to call “Civics.” Like me, many of the regulars who post and comment here at SAB are self-labeled conservatives. What that means, in general, is that we think government should be as small as possible, that it should oversee, regulate, or control as little as possible, that government actions should generally be taken at the lowest level possible, and that the provisions and intent of our Constitution should be followed with a near ruthless devotion. Individuals ought to be as free as possible, to make as many decisions for themselves as possible, always bearing mind that the consequences of those decisions ought to be theirs as well.

Our starting point, in other words, for any discussion of government policy, is these very principles and not the situation or issue du jour.
The rationale for this approach to self-government is as simple as it is revolutionary. Any government action involves some sort of restriction on individual liberty and freedom of choice. Laws, by definition, place limits on the actions of those covered. Taxes diminish the disposable income and thus limit the economic choices available to those who must pay them. Minimizing government maximizes individual freedom. Our Founding Fathers understood all this. They designed the structure of our Republic based on these very same principles with the intent of maximizing individual liberty while restricting the size and scope of government.

For conservatives, there is little point in having principles if you are unwilling to abide by or apply them. For us, those principles are not merely secular icons to be placed on a mantle and admired. Situational ethics and expediency, such as most often displayed by those on the Left, are not hallmarks of true conservative thought.

Man: I consider anyone who refers to a large number of human beings as “plebs”, who considers them to be inferior in some way, and who doesn’t respect their own judgment about what to do in their lives as condescending. If the shoe fits…

I don’t consider that it’s any of my business what other people choose to eat. If they want to smoke tobacco, so be it, but they are not entitled to force it on me by doing it in shared airspace. Understand now?

And having a government altogether is the first step towards socialism, right?

Yes, which is why American Conservatives, in the spirit of our Constitution, require a severe limitation of govt. Duh.

BTW, we have a representative republic, not a democracy.

The film features universal health care in France, Great Brittan, Canada, Cuba…the rhetoric I’ve been exposed to since I can first remember being aware of the concept of “socialized medicine”. My family is about 95% right-wing and 100% certain of the fact that everything they hear about poor health care in these places is true. Why do they believe that? Because their chosen radio talker or columnist or author tells them it is.

You WILL have to wait upwards to a year for surgery that in the United States would take place within a week or two. You WILL have taxes that are so high, that in the end you’ll end up losing your standard of living for the sake of the millions of junkies out there, now getting their clean needles and God-knows-what-else from the government. You WILL have to change doctors in order to fill quotas, and if you do not like your new doctor, you WILL have to submit a written reason why, along with three notarized affidavits and appear before a review board. And on and on…

My father and uncle…neither of whom have ever stepped foot in Europe, have talked about what it’s like over there with such certainty since I was a little kid, that it took living there myself for a few years to REALLY come to grips with the fact that they were simply talking out of their ass, out of a genuine love for this country, and not ever wanting to believe that we’re 2nd-rate or that “the frogs” have it figured out better.

It’s about pride. Nationalism. The debate, when it takes place within the realm of facts, cannot be won by the side in favor of the system in place today -OR- the system in place today plus a band aid of some kind. Listen to Newt Gingrich and he’ll tell you it’s all about technology and electronic records…listen to others and they’ll tell you about a “single payer” system…

I’d rather the stigma-words get left at the door, along with the urban myths (btw, poor people in Los Angeles being dropped off by cab drivers without shoes, wearing hospital gowns don’t fall into the “urban myth” category…that’s actually on film), and let’s also get rid of this “personal responsibility” machismo…all of it is nothing more than buzz-word brain candy.

REALITY – - – Corporate control over our country gets tighter with each passing year. People aren’t better off for it. The mantra of “poor me, the government is taking my money and blowing it on people who don’t deserve it”, is espoused constantly by the very same folks who will never come out against our military budget. Notice how the PEOPLE end up in that portion of the American pie? Walter Reed anyone? Body Armor?

REALITY – - – The time for ideology is long gone. I know it’s a great feeling to have a belief and to be able to articulate it, but when applied to real life issues that require sound public policy to remedy, the ideology does nothing but work against us.

I don’t have a socialist ideology. I don’t care what you call not having to fear every day of what would happen to my family if I we were to lose our coverage…if that’s socialism, fine. Whatever. I’m past the point of caring about such things. I just know that we’re not doing it right.

We’re paying more money for less security. More money for less peace of mind. More money for policies that deny my brother in law a kidney treatment he needs…because they can, and he’s going to die. Not tomorrow or the next day, but in the next 5-10 years, we won’t be able to act like it was unexpected.

My sons will know their uncle in pictures only, and maybe I’ll have a story to tell them about sodium when they ask how he died. Or maybe I’ll explain to them that “boys, you have to remember that while it wasn’t right for your uncle to die so young, what with the science established in terms of what he needed to get in order to live…that’s very sad, but I want the both of you to FOCUS ON WHAT IS IMPORTANT, and that is the virtue of personal responsibility”.

Can you apply the term in that conversation and not sound like the biggest jerk imaginable?

To the Moore-haters and ideologues who are against universal health care…I’d just once like to see data in the place of rhetoric to support your position.

…presenting 9/11 to Bush on a silver plate…

A very propagandistic way of referring to an act of aggression against the US, combined with the slaughter of 3000 civilians. Have you forgotten Clinton’s statement that nothing like this happened during his admin, thus depriving him of the chance to be a hero and enhance his “legacy”?
There is a fundamental difference between Hitler burning his own building and a group of Islamic jihadists destroying a trade center to try to destroy our economy. Too bad you don’t know that.

No substance so far, just talking points from the extreme left.

BH: I you wish to debate, make an argument with substance. Your whining is tiresome.

There is no point for me to post anything more…. I’ll have no further part in it as I don’t want to waste my time the way you waste yours.

Gee… was it something we said?

I’m sure you believe everything you’ve said to be the truth, but as some Irish guy with a feathered cape and a lisp once said,

Just because a man is willing to die for what he believes, doesn’t make it right.

Or something like that.

Still, its probably just as well. If you can’t handle something so simple as American history, the intricacies of healthcare policy, entitlements funding, and tax policy and the economy would have really kicked your a**.

expat: Actually, that is the Clinton excuse: “Everybody does it.” We really were attacked by radical Islam; several times.

The American Constitution is a masterpiece of principled brevity compared to the constitution of the European Union.

The EU has no constitution. It was rejected by the Danes and the French in referendums and so was not enacted.

No, it’s not; what part of “The Master Race” don’t you understand? If you have a Master, that makes everyone else…slaves. Whether he stated it or not, that’s what he wanted to do.

Sorry, misunderstanding here… my bad. Anyone who disagrees with a governments actions will always claim to have their “best interests” in mind. Just like the lefties claim we are “enslaving” the middle east for oil profit – whereas we are really trying to free them. Although incorrect, that’s their viewpoint.

Why is it that so many, especially right wing, americans are so afraid of/put so little trust into the government?

See my explanation of American conservatism above for starters. Two other factors also apply. First, the basic idea of accepting the personal responsibility that goes with individual liberty. Second is the fact that this country was founded on the premise of NOT being European. And with good reason, too.

Why not trust a government which you can drop in the next elections if they don’t run things as you think should be done but rather trust an enterprise whos’, in the example of healthcare, maxim is not the people but the cash?

You’re kidding, right? In any case, your lack of knowledge about how governmen works… and doesn’t… disqualifies you from any serious discussion of the subject matter at hand. How are you at gardening or banjo music?

Well, getting back in line here I did want to make this comment: having moved to the US 4 yrs ago from Germany, I can say that socialised medicine has it’s downside among the overall good. A high unemployment rate is one of them – it’s simply not attractive for an employer to employ someone whom he already knows will cost at least 10x more than in say, India and whom he will have to pay even when this person is actually currently not working. This leads too much complacency on an employees part and to a general sense of not feeling responsible – the government provides, so why should I care. Although I am a social democrat, I am not a socialist. It’s already been pointed out but apparently not everyone has gotten the message: Socialised Medicine does not mean becoming socialist. There is a big difference between acting socially responsible and being a socialist. Maybe the word social has become a dirty word because the commies, just like the word propaganda became a dirty word because of how the Nazis used it. But the word itself simply implies being social within my community.

And finaly, what use is a healthcare system which a lower middle class (roughly one third of the pop I believe) worker can’t afford, who doesn’t
even have the choice to chose?

Good point. As healthcare has become more socialized, over the years, it has gotten more screwed up. Why not reverse the process that has screwed it up, and return to a free enterprise model?

Like Hitler, Bush promised to promote “freedom and liberty into every remote corner of the world”.

Hitler lied; he just wanted to enslave everyone. The President is telling the truth, and wants to free everyone. Big difference.

BH: I notice that you are attempting the usual leftie “divide and conquer” tactic with me and Bat; don’t think it will work, but if that’s all you’ve got, you are carrying an empty sack. If you know anything about debate, you know that such emotion-based practices are regarded as evidence that you have no valid argument.

BTW, it’s not my job to take care of your emotional needs, so don’t bother “sharing your feelings” with me; I don’t care how you feel; only how you think.

Errr…you do vote your legislative and executive organs, no?

Aside from that, your condescending attitude, arrogance and apparent bigotry disqualifies you from any serious discussion of the subject matter at hand.

or not

BTW, Al Qaeda and Bin Laden grew in power and influence during the Clinton admin. Clinton could have taken Bin Laden three times, and refused each time. IMO, Clinton enabled 9/11. Nice “silver plate”.

I totally agree. Clinton is one of those that will do anything in their power to kiss the general publics but instead of doing what needs to be done.

But Hilter never stated he wanted to enslave everyone – thats just a matter of viewpoint. Any goovernment waging war will always “claim” they have the best interest at heart.

BTW, it’s not my job to take care of your emotional needs, so don’t bother “sharing your feelings” with me; I don’t care how you feel; only how you think.

Hehe, them crybabies… ooh you hurt my feelings….

There is nothing to say against a functioning free enterprise based health care system, as long as every social class has access to it and the individual remains the focus of the enterprise, not how much money you can squeeze out of him or save by withholding certain treatment.

If you really understood free enterprise, you would know that it exists to supply all the available demand; it is socialism that makes class distinction judgments.
I repeat, the more socialized our healthcare “system” has become, the more problems like you talk about have occurred. What part of that don’t you understand? Socialism is the problem, not the solution.

Hello, affected fruitcakes of the right. Murderers, torturers, spies, blatherers, thwarters of science, one-sided business majors.

Projectors of your own faults on anyone you perceive to think differently from you.

Gluttons of radio where the talk-show hosts are conservative to progressive in a ratio of ten to one.

Lovers of surface, avoiders of depth, emotionally stunted individuals.

Thank you for posting Michael Moore’s film so that I can see it over again any time I want. It is wonderful, warm,
well-made, full of deep insights into our flawed American psyche and health system.

Your posting it reminds me of Rush Limbaugh’s playing of a Country Joe and the Fish song any time he wants to assert how flaky the hippie-dippies were.

“For it’s one-two-three what are we fighting for? Don’t ask me, I don’t give a damn. Next stop is Viet Nam.”

Those profound lyrics, of course, are more than applicable to our voluntary Army today. Some repent and transform, but all at some initial point were victims of their flawed upbringing and education, and accepted the snow job of the berserko preppie George W. Bush, himself the fictional creation Jack in “Lord of the Flies” by the Nobel Laureate
novelist William Golding.

This might just be an Antitrust issue rather than the need for tort reform etc. (which if people were informed they would realize that tort reform is bad – another issue).

It seems like the problem is that patients are not willing to shop for doctors and doctors on the most part are either ignorant of price structures or unwilling to demand lower prices. If everyone leaves it up to a body of people motivated by profit or more importantly held unaccountable, then there is no way that the doctors and the patients can develop a business profitable to both.

Capitalism at its best is where two parties both benefit from a relationship and exchange of goods, and that benefit is increased on both sides by continuous exchange and willingness to look at things for what they are worth.

Perhaps if people and doctors had to compete rather than deal with insurance on all claims then the market may have a chance to work.

Some commenters believe that reform of a system is like fixing a house by burning it down – they miss the point. There is room for insurance companies, but as those doctors I know who actually provide value for their product and fight to provide that value at maximum profit for themselves and minimal cost to their patients – Socialized medicine is passing the buck and paying someone to stand up for you when they have no interest to.

rob, this computer is at work – we all use it to go online.

Sorry about the name, I will change it.

Who would have guessed.(?)

Anyone who can read history and isn’t suffering from a very bad case of BDS. You keep claiming to debate, BH, but offer nothing but your own circular interpretation of things, with no supporting facts or reasoning. You also continue to attack me personally instead of presenting anything of substance in reply to my arguments. That isn’t debate, it’s advocacy.

What would extreme right wing democrats be like? They wouldn’t know their arse from their elbow.

That’s crazy. I can spell arse in English, but if I want to say ass I need to refer to a donkey.

Sorry DJ, see Rob’s update

There is no point for me to post anything more. All valid points are simply dismissed as leftist propaganda without consideration, combined with insults. This is exactly the kind of right wing ignorance that is making the US go to pot. I’ll have no further part in it as I don’t want to waste my time the way you waste yours. Have fun preaching to the choir.

Thank you for posting this video. I’m so glad I watched it I’ll definitely go see it again in theaters and make sure I tell everyone I know to support change in our health care system by watching this film in theaters.

Hi,

After what I read-you know nothing about socialists and communism…I’m a German and in a liberal political party-so don’t get me wrong: I’m against communism and all that, but it annoys me hearing people bringing stupid and wrong accusations about subjects they know nothing about…

Neiman, you moron, of course we have wonderful quality care for those who can afford it. And what of the tens of millions who can’t?

What tens of millions? The number is closer to ten million. And those who can’t afford it still get it.

This is what our education system has produced – people who think market driven societies are a good thing.
did you actually watch the movie?

It’s the best system we have come up with. Look at the wealth America has. I personally don’t see wealth as a bad thing.

You’re not a serious person Carmel.

“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” – Benjamin Franklin

That is exactly what socialism does: it promises security in exchange for freedom.

So you respect the law yet openly flaunt it… get off my side of the issue you moran.

Nice spelling there, Lefty. Did that GED program work out okay for you?

Let the plebs destroy themselves…

Why not wish them health and happiness?
With a free enterprise healthcare system, everyone, including you, will be responsible for their health choices. It’s a matter of individual independence, and that applies equally to all, even the “plebs”.

Changed.

No, nothing you said. I was referring entirely to robert108. You are at least open to debate and you made some good points and I had fun after our initial head-butting. Although I do appreciate robert108 opening my eyes that Hitler was actually a liar as opposed to our president who tells the truth and wants to free everyone. Who would have guessed. Lmao. So long.

hey fashist , SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Puzzle, you can just hit the play button above and watch the whole movie.

I’ve seen it, and there isn’t anything worth discussing. Unless you’d like to help explain the big, sloppy wet kiss Moore gives communist dictator Fidel Castro.

Do you even care about all the people Castro has murdered, tortured and imprisoned to stay in power or do you liberals forgive that stuff…as long as the state provides health care?

I’ve changed your comments under the “Niggereater” nickname to reflect your previous nickanme, Bipedal.

Again, to avoid confusion in the comments, stick to one nickname.

Puzzled,

Oh and it’s nice to know that you are exercised over a few things, but you wouldn’t know if from the screed your wrote. You only criticized the Cuba portion.

That’s because Moore’s pandering to the communist country was the most disgusting thing in the entire film. I mean, your entire defense of Moore consists of “but why aren’t you angry about these things too!”

Can we at least agree that Cuba’s political system is deplorable, and that Moore’s championing of it is disgusting?

Probably not, because deflect a simple question by throwing a tantrum about something else.

For everyone else: It isn’t surprising at all that Moore would paint a rosy picture of socialized medicine around the world given that he’s the same guy who used images of kids flying kites to represent Iraq under Saddam.

Clearly, Moore isn’t into honesty.

You cannot, in good conscience, post his movie while selling advertising. If Moore meant what he saide–admittedly a big if–then only those who post it for the public good without revenue generation can do so.

Anyone who thinks I’m making money here is fooling themselves.

He said he’s okay with people sharing his movie, so long as they aren’t profiting from it.

You have banner ads on this page, therefore each time someone visits this page regardless of whether or not they watch the movie, you are making money.

I didn’t hear Moore put any sort of caveats like that on his statement. Who are you to speak for Mike?

Moore forced you to sell out your “respect”. Yeah, you are showing SOMEONE to be a hypocrite, and it’s not Moore. Nope, it’s you. Moron.

Moore said he was ok with people downloading and sharing the letter, so I’ve downloaded it and now I’m sharing it.

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