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Thursday, May 15, 2008

California Supreme Court Overrules Gay Marriage Ban

Gay marriage was made illegal in California through an initiated measure and a vote of the people.  Previous to that, it had been banned by the legislators themselves.  But the state’s Supreme Court is overruling the will of the people through a court decision which, frankly, reads more like a proclamation from a monarchy than a ruling from one branch of government in a representative democracy:

We need not decide in this case whether the name “marriage” is invariably a core element of the state constitutional right to marry so that the state would violate a couple’s constitutional right even if — perhaps in order to emphasize and clarify that this civil institution is distinct from the religious institution of marriage — the state were to assign a name other than marriage as the official designation of the formal family relationship for all couples. Under the current statutes, the state has not revised the name of the official family relationship for all couples, but rather has drawn a distinction between the name for the official family relationship of opposite-sex couples (marriage) and that for same-sex couples (domestic partnership). One of the core elements of the right to establish an officially recognized family that is embodied in the California constitutional right to marry is a couple’s right to have their family relationship accorded dignity and respect equal to that accorded other officially recognized families, and assigning a different designation for the family relationship of same-sex couples while reserving the historic designation of “marriage” exclusively for opposite-sex couples poses at least a serious risk of denying the family relationship of same-sex couples such equal dignity and respect. We therefore conclude that although the provisions of the current domestic partnership legislation afford same-sex couples most of the substantive elements embodied in the constitutional right to marry, the current California statutes nonetheless must be viewed as potentially impinging upon a same-sex couple’s constitutional right to marry under the California Constitution.

Personally, I don’t really have a dog in the gay marriage hunt.  I don’t really care if gays want to marry one another.  I’m not going to march in the streets and carry on as though such unions were some sort of a “right,” but I’m not opposed to it either.

What I am concerned about, however, is the legislative process and the way it’s being usurped by the judiciary.

The people of California made their will on this issue known through the legislative process, and later more directly through the initiated measure process.  Given that government in America is supposed to bend to the will of the people, how can a group of justices invested with no legislative power possibly have justification to eschew the clearly expressed will of Californians?

Again, I don’t really care if gays marry.  But I do worry about the decidedly un-American way in which gay activists are going about advocating their issues.  One has to wonder if it’s even in their interest to win their issue in this manner given the resentment their fellow citizens are bound to feel as to their will, as expressed through the legislative process, being completely ignored.

The gays may have won this ruling, but they’ve also won a whole lot of ill-will from their fellow citizens.  It would be better - albeit slower - to convince enough of their fellow citizens to support gay marriage rather than to ram the issue down their throats through the improper use of judicial power.

Comments

You’re mistaken, Pil; this is a voters’ issue, not one of States Rights.  A few years ago, the voters of CA overwhelmingly passed an initiative defining traditional marriage, and outlawing so-called “gay marriage”.  In typical leftie fashion, a few judges have overturned the will of the people.  Shouldn’t States Rights reflect the will of the voters of that State?


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robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 12:23 pm
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Time for a necktie party

GM CASSEL AMH1(AW) USN RET on May 15, 2008 at 12:25 pm
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This is fantastic news!! Now maybe the country will begin to understand that marriage is a basic civil right. Being from Massachusetts this is a great anniversary gift for our 4th year of the legalization of gay marriage on May 17th. For the truth about gay marriage check out our trailer. Produced to educate & defuse the controversy it has a way of opening closed minds & provides some sanity on the issuesmile http://www.OUTTAKEonline.com

Charlio on May 15, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Rob,

What I am concerned about, however, is the legislative process and the way it’s being usurped by the judiciary.

I don’t suppose that you actually read this 176 page decision, so I’ll quote the most important part of it to you:

The legal issue we must resolve is not whether it would be constitutionally permissible under the California Constitution for the state to limit marriage only to opposite-sex couples… but whether our state Constitution prohibits the state from establishing a statutory scheme in which both opposite-sex and same-sex couples are granted the right to enter into an officially recognized family relationship… but under which the union of an opposite-sex couple is officially designated a “marriage” whereas the union of a same-sex couple is officially designated a “domestic partnership.”

The court is merely deciding whether the Californian CONSTITUTION allows California to give EQUAL RIGHTS to two different types of parties but call those parties different names.

There is no “legislative usurping” here, the Constitution is already legislated, it is the court’s job to make sure that the state legislature does not pass laws that conflict with its own rules.

If the people of California are unhappy with this ruling, they can always vote to update their constitution. That would be the democratic way of doing it. So…

how can a group of justices invested with no legislative power possibly have justification to eschew the clearly expressed will of Californians?

They were invested, by the legislature, with the power to make the legislature follow its own laws.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 15, 2008 at 12:58 pm

HP: It’s an interpretation, one which clearly doesn’t respect the will of the voters of CA.

There is no “right” to get married, only requirements to be able to do so.  The Court has clearly changed the requirements, with no legislation to support that.


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robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 01:14 pm
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Hairy,

Can you please quote for me the portion of the California constitution which provides for marriage of any sort being a “right?”

Yeah, didn’t think so.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on May 15, 2008 at 01:18 pm

Charlio: This isn’t about any non-existent “civil right"(leftiespeak for “entitlement").  No one has the right to get married without meeting the requirments.
This is minority rule(and a very small minority at that), imposed on the voters by agendized judges.  It’s not the American Way of doing things; it’s more in line with a dictatorship.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 01:19 pm

"We the people” has, under a liberal judiciary (Kleptocracy) in America, become an anachronism; that is, the Left sees it as a time worn idea that belongs to previous centuries and a positive hindrance to their liberal, secular and anti-Christian agenda. For a long time, especially in California, the people have become subjects of a ruling elite in the Supreme Court that ignores the will of the people in favor of their socialist agenda.

Homosexuals are not interested in being married, the data demonstrates that they do not want to be bound to one sexual partner. Rather, they want to destroy the institution of marriage and its Judeo-Christian roots to avoid any sense of social shame for their perverse sexual lifestyle choices and of course any concept of Divine Judgment against homosexual conduct.

The people of California are gathering names for a petition to amend the state constitution to ban homosexual marriage, but Governor SchwarzenKennedy has said he will not support it, giving lie to his former public statements that he did not support homosexual marriage.

Conservatives had a chance to change America back to a true Representive Republic, but they got drunk with power and even outspent liberals and now for decades, if not forever, we the American people will be forced to submit to the Left’s dream of a socialist utopia in this nation and we will day by day lose our liberty.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 15, 2008 at 01:35 pm

robert108:  I’m hearing that the gay marriage issue will be put to California voters in the form of a referendum this Fall.  Is this true?  What are he odds?


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets on May 15, 2008 at 01:35 pm

I’m hearing that the gay marriage issue will be put to California voters in the form of a referendum this Fall.  Is this true?  What are he odds?

The Initiative process is written by the voters behind the initiative and the California Supreme Court, as it has in the past, will simply say some words are unconstitutional and throw it out and overrule the people. I know, I live in this craphole!


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 15, 2008 at 01:40 pm

California divorce lawyers are celebrating!

Kevin on May 15, 2008 at 01:42 pm

Rob,

Can you please quote for me the portion of the California constitution which provides for marriage of any sort being a “right?”

I don’t need to, though a right can be inferred from the fact that marriage is given extra rights in Cal. Const. Articles 1 and 13a. Regardless, the state legislature passed a law making that right: Cal. Fam. Code §297.5

The question before the court is whether applying that law to same-sex couples but denying them the right to label it a “marriage” is a violation of California’s Equal Protection Clause:

Cal. Art. 1 SEC. 7.  (a) A person may not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law or denied equal protection of the laws

The court found that forcing two couples to call the SAME RIGHTS by two different names violates their equal protection rights. Agree with gay marriage or not, the logic here is simple.

If Californians don’t like it, they should update their civil union statute (above) to not confer rights to same-sex couples. In fact, the court explicitly noted that it does not rule on whether or not same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry—so the above law doesn’t need to exist in the first place. Once they passed it, they put themselves in this position.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 15, 2008 at 01:45 pm

Neiman:

...under a liberal judiciary…

Friend, you ain’t seen nothing yet.

Wait ‘til President Obama starts naming Justices to the high court and hundreds to the federal bench around the country.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets on May 15, 2008 at 01:47 pm

Pparets: We are facing tough times economically, as to our national security and our time honored Judeo-Christian social-moral principles in the years ahead. I am truly discouraged.


No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman on May 15, 2008 at 01:52 pm

Neiman:  Take heart, friend. You know Who watches over us. 

Barack Obama must not be allowed to win this election.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets on May 15, 2008 at 01:58 pm

HP: The flaw in your reasoning is that if what you say about the CA constitution is right, then so-called “gay marriage” has always been legal; that is obviously not true, so what we really have is a PC interpretation that favors a very small minority group, at the expense of the vast majority of Californians.  To real married couples, the assertion that marriage is a “right” is ridiculous; we all know it’s a responsibility to something greater than our own selfish desires.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 02:25 pm

robert108: You are right. But the ruling came down on the side of moral corruption. This is a sad and evil day.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets on May 15, 2008 at 02:33 pm

HP: The flaw in your reasoning is that if what you say about the CA constitution is right, then so-called “gay marriage” has always been legal

I don’t see how you can impute that to my reasoning. I wrote, quite clearly, that whether or not it is in the constitution is irrelevant because California passed a law that gave gay civil couples the SAME rights as straight “married” couples.

The court’s reasoning is that if you gave them the EQUAL rights, it is not EQUAL protection to force them to call those rights by different names. My conclusion being that if the Californians don’t like it, they shouldn’t have passed Cal. Fam. Code §297.5.

So please, next time read through my post and churn it in your head a bit before you use it to pander your anti-gay-marriage views. I don’t care about your views, I only care to point out that the judicial decision here was fair and in accordance with the law.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 15, 2008 at 02:34 pm

Here is the first part of the dissenter Corrigans opinion.

CONCURRING AND DISSENTING OPINION BY CORRIGAN, J.
In my view, Californians should allow our gay and lesbian neighbors to call
their unions marriages. But I, and this court, must acknowledge that a majority of
Californians hold a different view, and have explicitly said so by their vote. This
court can overrule a vote of the people only if the Constitution compels us to do
so. Here, the Constitution does not. Therefore, I must disse
nt

. Yet another court decision unsupported by law.  So much for democratic rule…

The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 15, 2008 at 03:06 pm

Hey doc,

In a vote, we usually don’t use the MINORITY dissenting opinion to support the idea that the MAJORITY opinion was wrong… you know, logic and all.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 15, 2008 at 03:11 pm

Doc,

I just read through that dissent, it doesn’t even address the majority’s reasoning. It picks at the majority’s dicta and argues with that instead. I guess he figured he could get away with it when majority decided to write a 130 page opinion that others were not likely to read…


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 15, 2008 at 03:21 pm

This is great political hay for McCain, if he’s smart enough to use it.  A gift on a silver platter—a wedge issue just in time for the election!

As for the whole “rights” business, Charlio and Hairy Polemic already had the exact same right to marry as me or anyone else did, regardless of their sexual orientations.  What they have now, at least in CA and MA, is a special right, because of their orientation.

You want a second class marriage?  Be my guest—marry someone of your own gender and tell yourself that separate really is “equal” after all.


[Feet make good soup!]

Marty on May 15, 2008 at 03:25 pm

Yeah Hairy, for this outrageous court decision, one could say that it is without merit and has no basis in fact, and as such it should not be obeyed.  The libs are famous for their willingness to disobey the laws they don’t like.  Poetic justice demands that conservatives and christians do likewise to this obvious liberal court decision.

The shit will hit the fan as soon as the homos demand a Christian church marriage.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 15, 2008 at 03:35 pm
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Yeah Hairy, for this outrageous court decision, one could say that it is without merit and has no basis in fact, and as such it should not be obeyed.

Fine, don’t get married.

Hawk on May 15, 2008 at 03:41 pm
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The simplest solution is to outlaw “civil union”, and restore the concept of “bastard” in our family laws. 

Neither that or we can always kill all the judges.

Anh on May 15, 2008 at 03:44 pm

I don’t care about your views, I only care to point out that the judicial decision here was fair and in accordance with the law.

Thanks for your tolerance of diverse views(/sarcasm).  There is no “right” to marriage, as it is conditional on various requirements, unlike real rights, which are granted to every adult American.
This word parsing is pure shit, and I expect the people of CA, who voted over 60% to resist changing the definition of marriage to suit a small minority pressure group, will defeat this latest leftie attempt to destroy the fabric of our society.

BTW, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with you for disagreeing with me; you’re just wrong on the law.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 03:48 pm

Unamerican to use the third branch of government?  Perhaps you should write to Bork who just got a huge settlement using the court system cuz he hurt himself and he sued. Hm… unamerican to use the constitution and go to court.

Obviously Rob, you need a civics lesson.

Puzzlefeet on May 15, 2008 at 04:50 pm

Puzzle, you are the one who needs the civics lesson.

Courts are not legislatures.

Go look it up, it’s true.

Ken McCracken on May 15, 2008 at 04:58 pm

Hawk - Fine, don’t get married.

More like - fine, the citizens don’t have to recognize something they don’t want to recognize.

likwidshoe on May 15, 2008 at 05:06 pm
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Courts do not represent “the will of the people” or anyone else.  Courts exist to apply the will of the people to a given situation.

There’s nothing in California’s state constitution that guarantees a right to marriage, and the people’s will in this instance is clearly expressed.

This country was founded on the idea that the people govern themselves.  The folks in California are having a hard time with that what with these judges sticking their nose in where it doesn’t belong.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on May 15, 2008 at 05:06 pm

I wouldn’t be surprised if another facet of California state law was soon brought into play here.

Rose Bird was only 63 when she died nearly 9 years ago, but her legacy lives on.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 15, 2008 at 05:12 pm

Liberals love democracy only so far as it goes their way.

The fact that the “Democratic” party has “delegates” and “superdelegates” designed to override the will of the people shows that.

likwidshoe on May 15, 2008 at 05:21 pm

The court’s reasoning is that if you gave them the EQUAL rights, it is not EQUAL protection to force them to call those rights by different names. My conclusion being that if the Californians don’t like it, they shouldn’t have passed Cal. Fam. Code §297.5.

That’s ridiculous.

The “seperate but equal” argument doesn’t work. The reason the court struck down those laws are because there was no equality. But by your own admission, the two “classes” both have equal rights. So much for “it’s not equal”.

Kenny on May 15, 2008 at 08:52 pm

Rob:

Courts exist to apply the will of the people…

Um, to the best of my knowledge, high courts exists to determine the constitutionality of an act, action or lower court ruling.

Applying the will of the people is properly a legislative or executive function.


"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

pparets on May 15, 2008 at 09:13 pm

Did I read that correctly?  The opinion is one hundred seventy-six pages long?  Are California jurists paid by the word… or the page?

I don’t believe the Supreme Court rulings in Marbury v. Madison, Brown v. Board of Education, and Roe v. Wade equaled 176 pages combined!

If it takes that long to justify a ruling, something is mighty wrong.


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 15, 2008 at 09:38 pm

Did I read that correctly?  The opinion is one hundred seventy-six pages long?

Sophistry and pedantry can kill lots of trees, Bat.

Ken McCracken on May 15, 2008 at 09:44 pm

Sophistry and pedantry can kill lots of trees, Bat.

Thank God we have the UN to protect us… and the trees!


“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Bat One on May 15, 2008 at 09:57 pm

Having read several early assessments of the decision across the web, it seems to me that the California Court got it right and that Californians will have to change their Constitution if they don’t want same sex marriage in their state. I prefer that the government stay out of the bedroom but I understand that not everyone sees it that way.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on May 15, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Courts exist to apply the will of the people to a given situation.

No they don’t.  Take a fucking civics lesson.  The courts exist to apply the law.  That is often against the will of the people.  It is why we don’t have lynch mobs.  The courts often exist to protect the individual rights of people against the will of the majority.

You are almost the perfect republican.

Lestat on May 15, 2008 at 10:46 pm

I prefer that the government stay out of the
bedroom but I understand that not everyone sees it that way.

This is about marriage, not “the bedroom”.  If all it takes is sex to make a marriage, we might as well call all the heterosexual couples living together “married”; it’s the same thing.  Marriage is about a whole lot more than simply what goes on in the bedroom.
This is about a small minority hijacking an institution that is as old as civilization itself.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 10:52 pm

The courts exist to apply the law.  That is often against the will of the people.

Wrong again, Lestat; only against the will of the criminals, not the ones the law protects from the criminals.  Lynching was a tactic of the Dem terrorist group, the KKK.

You’re the perfect leftie: supporter of terrorism against Republicans in the South, and soft on criminals.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 15, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Well Robert, I understand that you do not understand the Bill of Rights.

Let me explain in small words. 

The whole purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from the majority.  It has no other purpose in a democracy, where the majority controls the government.

Lestat on May 15, 2008 at 11:03 pm

The whole purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from the majority.  It has no other purpose in a democracy, where the majority controls the government.

Actually the whole purpose of the Bill of rights was to protect what the majority believed to be God given rights from the temporary whim of society.

Considering the BoR were passed by an overwhelming majority, pointing to them as a counter example of “the will of the people” is folly.

Kenny on May 16, 2008 at 01:43 am

The whole purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from the majority.  It has no other purpose in a democracy, where the majority controls the government.

Is this the nonsense that is being taught in civic classes in our schools today?  Anybody who DOESN’T believe that the Bill of Rights was intended to guarantee the inalienable rights of ALL citizens needs to read this.  An excerpt:

In drafting the Bill of Rights, Madison had two goals in mind: to limit the power of the federal government, providing another check on the balance of power, and to make explicit the rights of citizens. Many opponents of the Bill of Rights felt that these rights were implicit in the existing Constitution, and would be properly read into the Constitution by the judiciary. Madison and others did not want to leave this power in the hands of the judiciary: a Bill of Rights would make it known to all exactly where the rights of man began and the powers of government ended.

The worst fears of Madison have been brought out in this and other court rulings that manufacture rights that are not explicit in the constitutions nor are inalienable rights.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 16, 2008 at 02:39 am

WND has a good wrapup of this issue entitled

California’s ‘judicial fiat’ condemned – by judge
‘Undeterred by state, federal law, new constitutional right invented’


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 16, 2008 at 03:03 am

Lik, do a little better, both parties have superdelegates, idiot!

Puzzlefeet on May 16, 2008 at 04:48 am

Lik, do a little better, both parties have superdelegates, idiot!

That’s hilarious.

And no, “superdelegates” are unique to the Democrat party. They make up about 20 percent of the delegates and have only been around since the 1980’s.

But you already knew that because you’re not an idiot.

likwidshoe on May 16, 2008 at 05:29 am

MikeAdamson - I prefer that the government stay out of the bedroom...

The government is in the bedroom? Holy shit!

Meanwhile, in the real world - this issue is about whether the state will or will not recognize a contract. The bedroom, anybodies bedroom, has nothing to do with anything.

Mike, maybe you can hook up with Puzzlefeet there and you two can concoct your own realities together. Puzzlefeet can go on thinking that the Republicans have superdelegates and you can go on thinking that marriage = bedroom.

likwidshoe on May 16, 2008 at 05:35 am

Lestat - No they don’t.  Take a fucking civics lesson.  The courts exist to apply the law.

So much hostility.

Here’s what Rob said:

Courts exist to apply the will of the people to a given situation.

Now what would “the will of the people” be?

The law, perhaps?

Who represents “the will of the people”?

The various representatives and the people themselves through direct issue ballot measures.

Now what is the court’s job?

To apply the law AKA the will of the people.

Rob was right.

likwidshoe on May 16, 2008 at 05:46 am

What percentage will be necessary to pass a constitutional amendment in California?


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 16, 2008 at 05:57 am

Rob and Likwid,

Rob especially:

There’s nothing in California’s state constitution that guarantees a right to marriage, and the people’s will in this instance is clearly expressed.

I already pointed out to you that Cal. Fam. Code §297.5 grants the right. It’s not in the constitution, but rights are not limited to what is in the constitution—people can make laws too. The constitution, via equal protection, necessitates that Cal. Fam. Code §297.5 apply equally to all couples. The people are perfectly within their rights to express their wills by repealing said law.

Once again, the majority EXPLICITLY writes that its decision does not touch on whether or not there is a constitutional right to marriage. So what is your hang-up on this constitutional argument? Why do you keep talking about the constitution and marriage rights?

I know that you want to be “right”, but to disagree with something in full face of opposing facts is just plain bad pool. You’re beginning to make me think that your favorite peroration is “nyah nyah.”


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 06:00 am

Once again (I feel like I have to reiterate this): The Court did not say that gay couples have a constitutional right to marriage.

The court said that if you grant gay couples a civil union right, equal protection prevents you from forcing them not to call that right a marriage.

Lesson: If your state is against gay marriage, don’t grant a civil union right.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 06:16 am

The whole purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from the majority. It has no other purpose in a democracy, where the majority controls the government.

Wrong again.  The express purpose of not only the Bill of Rights, but of the entire Constitution is to limit the power of the govt(the minority) over the people of the United States(the majority).  I know you don’t know this, but neither the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights is a partisan political document, even though you ignorant and stupid lefties are trying real hard to politicize it.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 16, 2008 at 07:11 am

equal protection prevents you from forcing them…

“Forcing them”?  All laws force criminals to stop their criminal and antisocial activities; does your version of “equal protection” stop us from fighting crime?
Now you’re being ridiculous.

The Court did not say that gay couples have a constitutional right to marriage.

Maybe you had better inform all those celebrating gay couples, then.  They think it does.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 16, 2008 at 07:26 am

The express purpose of not only the Bill of Rights, but of the entire Constitution is to limit the power of the govt(the minority) over the people of the United States(the majority).

Please consult Federalist #11 and #51. That is as much free education as I will give you. After this, you’ll be getting invoices.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 08:02 am

Hairy.  One reason this discussion is about their Constitution is because a “supreme court” can not overturn a constitutional amendment or a constitution itself.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 16, 2008 at 08:16 am

Please consult Federalist #11 and #51. That is as much free education as I will give you. After this, you’ll be getting invoices.--

I cite the Law of the Land, you cite opinions.  I don’t remember the Supreme Court giving any rulings on the Federalist Papers.  You can spin them any way you want, there is no “right” to be married, if you don’t meet the requirements.  End of story.
Your tiny minority wants to change one requirement(the most basic one) to suit your selfish reasons, at the expense of all the rest of us.
BTW, do you have any numbers on the actual percentage of gay people who even want to hijack the institution of marriage for themselves?
This whole so-called “gay marriage” flap is really over politics, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the benefit of the vast majority who isn’t “gay”.


If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.

robert108 on May 16, 2008 at 08:18 am

Hairy.  One reason this discussion is about their Constitution is because a “supreme court” can not overturn a constitutional amendment or a constitution itself.

Yep RZ. So they had to rule in accordance with the equal protection clause of their constitution. The court said that if the state makes a law that grants gay couples the same union rights as straight couples, it would not be equal protection to call those rights by a different name.

I cite the Law of the Land, you cite opinions.

You didn’t cite anything. I gave you a reference where you can go and look up Madison’s actual, explicitly written reasons for the Bill of Rights. Do you even know what the Federalist Papers are?

I actually cited something earlier on:
Cal. Fam. Code §297.5

(Notice my elegant use of abbreviation—bluebook style.)


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 08:24 am

What percentage will be necessary to pass a constitutional amendment in California?

Don’t know but the same people that got the man=women marriage proposition passed are working on it.

The Court did not say that gay couples have a constitutional right to marriage.

Perhaps, hairy, but the good people in California are about to rectify that.  We in Texas have already passed a state constitution amendment to afix marriage as ONLY between 1 man and 1 women.  That should nullify the courts decision.  If I got it right, the constitution of a state is the supreme law overulting any legislative or judicial actions to the contrary.  I may be wrong but I thought citizen supported propositions also trump legislative law.  If so, the California supreme court has committed another malfeasance.  Impeachment anyone?


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 16, 2008 at 08:27 am
Avatar for HG

I’m amazed that so many fail to comprehend the value of marriage to society, or somehow imagine the value could and should extend to relationships which do not benefit either the homosexual or society.  This is a blatant assault on a fundamental institution historically rooted in tradition and religion disguised as ‘progress’.  It’s moments like these that ought to rally Americans who value marriage to necessary action.  The opportunity to redress this grievance sounds like it will present itself on the November ballot.  Let’s hope the majority of Californians still have the sense to uphold marriage and in so doing, a healthy society.

HG on May 16, 2008 at 08:27 am

Harry.  Equal protection is a good ideal.  There is really no such thing as equal.  One is usually more equal than another.  This is about social engineering, changing the status of marriage as has been known since just about the beginning of time.  Equal protection for those who live in East LA?  How about equal protection to protect myself from criminals with a firearm? 
But, this post is about 4 people determining that “homosexual” “marriage” should be given the same status as traditional marriage.  The people of California may have a say on their determination this November.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 16, 2008 at 08:39 am
Avatar for HG

Hairy,

It seems to me that what marriage is was disregarded by the ruling.  It is as if marriage is whatever society says it is regardless of the historical, traditional, and religious significance.  Regardless of the offense to the vast majority of society.  Equal rights is a sophisticated way of overturning what to the majority is a sacred institution in favor of the perverseness of an extremely minute but vocal, fringe of society.  The disproportionate representation and significance this miniscule faction receives can hardly be accurately described as equality.

HG on May 16, 2008 at 08:47 am

More on the California marriage definition constitutional proposal from Hot Air

“Pro-family” organizations have submitted more than 1.1 million signatures for an initiative that would amend the state Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriage. If at least 694,354 signatures are found to be valid, the measure would go on the November ballot and, if approved by voters, would override any court ruling in favor of same-sex marriage.
Proposition 22, the California ballot initiative that defined marriage in the state as between one man and one woman (even if the marriage was entered into in another state that allows same-sex marriage), passed in 2000 by a margin of 1.7 million votes.

Looks like someone was foreseeing the courts adverse decision.


The Supreme Court is a bunch of black robed tyrants

docdave on May 16, 2008 at 08:52 am

Doc,

Perhaps, hairy, but the good people in California are about to rectify that.

If they amend their constitution, that’s their perogative. It’s call democracy.

I may be wrong but I thought citizen supported propositions also trump legislative law. 

Constitution > Legislative Law > Propositions > Public Opinion

So no, the court did just fine upholding the greater power. And you’re right, the people of California can always amend their constitution like it was amended in Texas. Or, easier still, they can repeal Cal. Fam. Code §297.5.

HG,

California already passed Cal. Fam. Code §297.5. So obviously their idea of civil union is not traditional. Your argument is with them, not me.


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 08:53 am

How about equal status in dorm rooms in colleges and universities?  This homosexual thing is a behavior.  One is not born homosexual.  Some have tried to equate this to racism in the past.  Where is the equal status for a baby living inside a woman?  One million murdered babies every year.  Equal status?  I guess it depends on what one’s definition of is is.  Or in this case, a human being.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 16, 2008 at 08:54 am

r108

This is about marriage, not “the bedroom”.

lik

Meanwhile, in the real world - this issue is about whether the state will or will not recognize a contract. The bedroom, anybodies bedroom, has nothing to do with anything.

It’s called metaphor fellas...all the cool kids are using them.

lik

Puzzlefeet can go on thinking that the Republicans have superdelegates and you can go on thinking that marriage = bedroom.

Would you feel happier if she referred to them as Unpledged Delegates? wink

I would like to thank HP for his illuminating comments and explanations. If any thinking person reads them and puts two and two together then any thinking person should come to an understanding of the ruling and how to fix the perceived “problem” it creates. I’ll be the first to admit that the law can be confusing but even I can see how the decision flows from the Constitution and that Constitutional change is required if Californians don’t want same sex marriage.

I applaud the California Supreme Court’s lack of judicial activism in this case and its desire to see the issue decided by the people of California...as it should be.


No passion so effectually robs the mind of all its powers of acting and reasoning as fear
*Edmund Burke*

MikeAdamson on May 16, 2008 at 09:01 am
Avatar for HG

Chief,

I am not qualified to argue scientifically whether or not one is born homosexual, but from a theological perspective we are all born with a propensity to evil.  IMO, that extends to homosexuality.  But, whether it is sin theologically, or a birth defect, or both, it doesn’t make homosexuality normal or healthy.  It certainly doesn’t mean one ‘born’ homosexual must act upon it, nor does it justify perverting marriage.

HG on May 16, 2008 at 09:07 am
Avatar for HG

Chief,

Abortion is another good example of a horrible evil.  People often speak of the atrocities of religion, or more recently, atheism.  But let’s face the harsh, cold reality that like legislated religion, legislated science poses a serious threat.  This reality is played out in legalized abortion.  For all the atrocities committed by theocracies and atheocracies (if that is a word), the atrocity that is abortion has surely surpassed them all in degree and maybe even in number.  It is one thing to kill off the weak and feeble as well as every jew.  It is another to kill off millions of innocent, defenseless unborn children and justify it with corrupted science.  For all you who think science and gov’t is a safe mixture for determining justice and social norms, have you even considered abortion?  Stein got it right when he suggested that a science beholden to government is a threat to society.

HG on May 16, 2008 at 09:26 am

HG.  Well put.  Glad we seem to agree upon this mass (legal?) murder

This reality is played out in legalized abortion.

Your perspective is refreshing and open to discussion.  See you around soon.

It is one thing to kill off the weak and feeble as well as every jew.  It is another to kill off millions of innocent, defenseless unborn children and justify it with corrupted science. 

Or innocent Ukranians, or Armenians.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on May 16, 2008 at 09:34 am

“We the people” has, under a liberal judiciary (Kleptocracy) in America, become an anachronism; that is, the Left sees it as a time worn idea that belongs to previous centuries and a positive hindrance to their liberal, secular and anti-Christian agenda. For a long time, especially in California, the people have become subjects of a ruling elite in the Supreme Court that ignores the will of the people in favor of their socialist agenda.

Well written Nieman.  As TDR used to say, ‘Bully! Bully! ‘

To those who have been trying to allege that this is merely an interpretation of the California Constitution, really beware when Leftists are allowed to interpret anything. When they can’t get what they want by plain meaning or majority vote, they resort to more devious means.  That behavior was on clear display when William Jefferson Benedict Arnold Clinton weaseled, ‘that depends upon what the meaning of the word is is.’

It’s not a new slippery dodge, but has been adopted by the Left wholeheartedly:

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.”

“The questions is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

“The question is,” Humpty Dumpty replied, “who is to be master. That’s all.”

Another tactic long used by the Left is to fight the existing law, morals, standards and conventions, seek to change them, oftentimes through court actions rather than popular vote or legislation, and then vigorously defend the Law, using it as a cudgel against everyone who disagrees.

If anyone has seen the latest Harry Potter flick (Order of the Phoenix) there is a thinly-veiled criticism in how Leftists take over organizations from above and exercise a saccharine, totalitarian rule over all others.

They say that trends that start in California trickle out into the rest of the USA.  I am hoping that this is changing, if it ever was true. 

First, because it would seem that in the concentration of Leftists, such as the anti-Marine caterwaulings of the Berkelyites, they have come to a critical mass of stupidity, departing far from the American mainstream.

Second, after watching Hollywoods’ icons darlings and icons destroy themselves: Boy George, Michael Jackson, George Michael, Lindsey Lohan, Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, etc., etc… the Mainstream is less willing to follow their example.  Indeed, Hollywood is rapidly becoming examples of depravity and how NOT to do it.

I certainly do hope this most recent bit of judicial fiat gives rise to a backlash and course correction.


...for great justice

Move_Zig on May 16, 2008 at 10:39 am

Hey Zig,

To those who have been trying to allege that this is merely an interpretation of the California Constitution, really beware when Leftists are allowed to interpret anything.

The Court currently has six Republicans (George, Kennard, Baxter, Werdegar, Chin, and Corrigan) and one Democrat (Moreno).

Oh man. Beware when Republicans interpret anything contrary to what the fringe wants—the fringe will forget they they are Republicans!


“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy Polemic on May 16, 2008 at 10:59 am
Avatar for HG

Oh man. Beware when Republicans interpret anything contrary to what the fringe wants—the fringe will forget they they are Republicans!

So much for veiling your bias. 

The fringe, btw, was in reference to homosexuals, not liberals in general, and definitely not the court.

HG on May 16, 2008 at 11:06 am

Ah yes, most likely in the same manner that Chaffee, McCain and Schwarzenegger as Republicans.  This is exactly why I detest RINOs so much.  They give cover to just such arguments by the Left.


...for great justice

Move_Zig on May 16, 2008 at 11:06 am

Ah yes, most likely in the same manner that Chaffee, McCain and Schwarzenegger are Republicans.  This is exactly why I detest RINOs so much.  They give cover to just such arguments by the Left.


...for great justice

Move_Zig on May 16, 2008 at 11:06 am
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