California Has A Against Cutting In Line At Restaurants
No joke:
Does a nation that already has more citizens in jail per capita than China really need a law against cutting in line?
Tuesday, July 01, 2008
Comments
Does a nation that already has more citizens in jail per capita than China really need a law against cutting in line?
China tends to execute its prisoners for body parts, so that comparison isn’t so appropriate, Rob.
Make no mistake, this is just another silly law, but please don’t use it to bash our justice system.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
It’s really a law to protect amusement parks from getting sued for detaining suspicious/unlawful people…
Cal Pen Code § 490.6 (2008)
§ 490.6. Detention of person in amusement park; Civil action resulting from detention or arrest
(a) A person employed by an amusement park may detain a person for a reasonable time for the purpose of conducting an investigation in a reasonable manner whenever the person employed by the amusement park has probable cause to believe the person to be detained is violating lawful amusement park rules.
(b) If any person admitted to an amusement park refuses or fails to follow lawful amusement park rules, after being so informed, then an amusement park employee may request that the person either comply or leave the premises. If the person refuses to leave the premises or comply with lawful park rules, then the person shall be deemed to be intentionally interfering with and obstructing those attempting to carry on a lawful business within the meaning of Section 602.1.
(c) In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or an arrest by a person employed by an amusement park, it shall be a defense to that action that the amusement park employee detaining or arresting the person had probable cause to believe that the person was not following lawful amusement park rules and that the amusement park employee acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
History:
Added Stats 1996 ch 731 § 1 (AB 2482).
Hierarchy Notes:
Pt. 1, Tit. 13, Ch. 5 Note
Notes of Decisions:
1. Generally
1. Generally
In an action against an amusement park for false imprisonment and other causes of action arising after plaintiff, who was observed surreptitiously videotaping juveniles, was detained by security personnel, the trial court erred in finding the defense created by Pen C § 490.6 was applicable, even though the first element of the defense, probable cause, was established, where the evidence did not support the conclusion that, as a matter of law, the defendant’s security personnel acted reasonably under all of the circumstances. Whether they acted reasonably was a disputed factual issue which should not have been resolved by granting nonsuit to the amusement park. Ecker v. Raging Waters Group, Inc. (2001, Cal App 2d Dist) 87 Cal App 4th 1320, 105 Cal Rptr 2d 320, 2001 Cal App LEXIS 220.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
OMG. One of Rob’s sources was full of shit? No! This is rarer than the birth of a white buffalo!
Neh, the picture is probably real. It says “in accordance with...” which is one of the proper uses of the law.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
LOL, don’t cut in line. That’s serious stuff
Victoria Walker, a 52-year-old Anniston, Alabama mother was convicted of beating and kicking another woman who allegedly cut in front of her in line at Disney’s Mad Tea Party in May 2007.
Just a lil’ side note here, Ms Walker was there along with her CHURCH GROUP!!!!!
Bwahahaha…
Honestly, I love the Mad Tea Party as much as the next person, but not enough to fight to the death over admittance to the ride in front of Mickey, Goofy, Snow White and all of my other fave Disney characters.
That is just so not supercalifragilisticexpealidocius in my book.
Anyway, Miss Walker got her due when she was
taken into custody in Alabama and extradited to Florida months after the incident. Though Walker apologized to the victim she beat down in a Florida courtroom last week, Judge Jose Rodriguez sentenced Walker to 90 days in jail, discounting the 32 days she had already served.
Ah… family values in America.
California Has A Against Cutting In Line At Restaurants
By Rob on July 1, 2008 at 12:01 pm
No they don’t. You bash California regularly.
Come down this way some time. Maybe the California sun and sea will change your mind a bit.
Ah… family values in America.
Nice smear attempt, but this was clearly an individual choice by the woman in question. Not really a valid basis for your generalization about our country.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
I really, really, really don’t like this California law.
It should be punishable by death.
And the perpetrator should be required to “cut in line” and get executed immediately.
Can we extend this to people who get into the express lanes with way too many items?
Hey, we all have our pet peeves…
J.
Rob gets a Muligan on this one.
please don’t use it to bash our justice system.
Our justice system is a mess. Why would this example
make you nervous bobbie? Its just more proof of our ADDICTION TO MEANINGLESS LAWS. Even you can understand that cant you? OH, I forgot about your strong authoritarian needs. The more insecure a person is, the more laws they think we should have. Makes people like you feel safe. The more laws the better you feel huh bobbie? Geeze....moron
Not really a valid basis for your generalization about our country.
Robert, I was being sarcastic!
Sheesh ... lighten why don’t ya
No /sarcasm tag.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
The one case of a certain person who tried to cut in lunch line at our Middle School let to his “relative” coming to school all in a huff. The “boy” tried to cut in front of about 25 students in full view of the cafeteria. I prevented him from doing so by blocking his entrance to the front of the lunch line. He and his family did not teach manners nor regard for simple rules. He, and his family was later arrested about two years later for selling illegal drugs. Imagine that.
Communism is evil
a certain person
Reading you loud and clear Chief.
Old times there are not forgotten.
“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob
The hands free law went into effect today.
What they fail to realize is that it’s not holding a phone in your hand that causes accidents, it’s the talking on the phone that causes accidents. Your reaction time is cut substantially when you are distracted by your boss talking about this month’s numbers, your wide screaming about the kids, or your girlfriend telling you that she has decided to move on after her trip to the Amazon that some other guy has just invited her on. There will now be many more rubber neck jams as a result of people being issued tickets which will add to accidents, commute times, and smog.
Once you use a headset or Bluetooth, you realize how much more convenient it is. Perhaps cell phones should not be sold without them. But, government should not be involved. The next step is banning cell phone use in cars totally.
What they fail to realize is that it’s not holding a phone in your hand that causes accidents, it’s the talking on the phone that causes
accidents. Your reaction time is cut substantially when you are distracted by your boss talking about this month’s numbers, your wide screaming about the kids, or your girlfriend telling you that she has decided to move on after her trip to the Amazon that some other guy has just invited her on.
Actually, it’s bad driving that causes “accidents"(which are generally not accidental at all), and may be the result of any number of activities, including unskilled driving with no discernible distractions. This is just another “law” designed to increase revenue for the govt, and is just another tax.
Some people can drive safely at over 100mph, and others are in danger at 35mph. It’s really about skill.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
It may be sun and sea here, but it is also the Republik of Caleeeeforneeeea. They send 10 cops in 5 cop cars to arrest one 4 lb. dog who was in its own front yard, but without a leash. Took her off to doggie jail overnight and it cost $200 to bail her out.
When a friend of mine was in the hospital having a baby, her German Shepherd got out. He had a habit of busting through screens when the window was open. A neighbor had come in to water plants and opened a window and forgot to close it again. The dog bolted and was arrested while playing happily in the ocean surf across the street.
Since my friend couldn’t go to court for her dog, she asked me to. They brought in a file about 3” thick of all his infractions. All were all about him playing on the beach without a leash, no charges of being vicious or anything like that. The prosecutor asked for the death penalty since the dog was “an incorrigible runaway.” I pleaded that they would let me take custody of this criminal and take him home to my house in the country. The judge agreed after we paid over a $1000 in fines.
When my friend was able to be up and around again, she rented out her seaside home and moved out to the county in order to save her loved pet.
Real crime gets ignored because someone’s rights might get trampled (can you say illegals or Muslims), but leash law breakers or even worse, kids breaking curfew, can generate multiple officer response lickedy split. I’ve seen them show up en masse at movie theaters 5 min. before curfew and gawd forbid a youngster should step outside without parental escort and it is 1 minute after curfew. They’re going to go to juvie.
Certain persons:
I would add criminals, felons, PC people who have get out of jail free cards, women, homosexuals, anyone who can claim “most favored minority status at the time”Real crime gets ignored because someone’s rights might get trampled (can you say illegals or Muslims)
Can you say, special protected species or personally irresponsible person(s).
I will never forget the New Orleans Police running away from their duties, the Los Angeles Police speeding through the riot areas where real crimes, murder and indiscriminate beatings like the truck driver went on. Then, to put the top to the cake, the DC courts said that their police are under no obligation to protect individual innocent civilians. Hence, finally, their citizens were denied even the rights to defend themselves. The SC in its 5-4 last week at least will allow them the choice to use a gun to defend themselves in their own homes.
But, you are right, Pal, the police will show up with 3-7 cars if one person calls 911 with the suspicion of a dog not being fed or a lie about some woman who wants to steal everything from her “spouse” and “start over”. Guilty until proven innocent. True to the shame of the US today.
Communism is evil
Does the apparent fact that the law was written for amusement parks make any difference? Either way, it’s nuts to make saving a place in line, or cutting in line, into a criminal offense.
Now obviously common sense is on its deathbed in California, but this “exceeds expectations.”
common sense is on its deathbed in California
Following the demise of “common courtesy”.
For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.
Frederick W. Kagan
Either way, it’s nuts to make saving a place in line, or cutting in line, into a criminal offense.
Now scroll up and read the actual law that I posted. The law is to prevent ammusement parks from being liable for detaining suspicious people for unruly/suspicious conduct. It does not make cutting in line a criminal offense.
(c) In any civil action brought by any person resulting from a detention or an arrest by a person employed by an amusement park, it shall be a defense to that action that the amusement park employee detaining or arresting the person had probable cause to believe that the person was not following lawful amusement park rules and that the amusement park employee acted reasonably under all the circumstances.
The picture that Rob posted basically says that in accordance with this law, they can eject you from the park and you can’t sue them for doing so. It doesn’t say that you will go to jail for cutting in line.
This is one of the few times where I will agree with those who lambast “amateur journalists”—people will believe anything they read before they check the facts. At least the MSM, politically slanted as it is, can’t straight up mistate the core facts (though I am first to admit that not reporting something is almost as bad as misreporting).
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Hairy, while that may be true, reality is that any court that would rule in such a way as to make the law necessary has utterly lost its common sense.
I think I’ve figured it out:
Liberals respond to challenges to their points by citing the single outlier that supports their hypothesis. Conservatives respond by arguing a different, albeit somewhat related, point.
The point of these particular comments is not that Californian courts have lost their common sense. The point is either that the Californian legislature has lost its common sense (if we follow the reasoning for Rob’s posting of the picture), or that Rob is a careless journalist (if we follow the actual law to which the picture refers).
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
A) Rob is not a journalist.
B) The point was to point out that we’ve got too many stupid laws. It’s stupid that something like cutting in line at a restaurant needs to be addressed by the government, mostly from the perspective that restaurants would need protection from lawsuits originating from people having been ejected for cutting in line.
C) Hairy Polemic apparently thinks he’s better than everyone else, since neither the stupid “liberals” or the stupid “conservatives” now how to argue to his satisfaction. Such arrogant, overly-broad Olympian tones are grating, and usually indicative of someone more interested in splitting hairs than debating real issues.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
Rob,
SAB readers are not here to debate points, they are here to proselytize and be proselytized to. But I do appreciate the conservative-leaning news breaks since the MSM fails to provide them, and I appologize for lulling myself into holding you to a standard.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings on the careless journalism bit.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Hey, I do the best I can, but unlike journalists this isn’t my job. Doing this ultimately costs me money, and when I write something I’m usually in a hurry banging it out before I have to run off and change a diaper, or take some kids to t-ball or do the work that actually pays my bills.
So sorry if I don’t live up to your exalted standards, and sorry if all us “conservatives” and “liberals” aren’t up to your lofty, Olympian standards of discourse.
Why don’t you aim that computer up in your ivory tower at another blog if we all suck so bad. Or you could quit the arrogant preaching to the rest of us about the quality of discourse and just debate the topic at hand.
Because the status quo from you, which I see from a lot of people so you’re not as unique and special as you think, is pretty tiresome.
Not that I care one way or the other. You’re free to comment here as much as you want. That’s the funny thing about this blog. I don’t go around telling other people how to make their arguments.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
I tend to agree with Harry, here. Somebody was either cracking wise in making the sign (I also looked up the statute to see what it really said), or it’s a photoshop. I think the latter, since I doubt any restaurant is going to try and create an “unfriendly” atmosphere for their clientele.
One could also be a conservative and still agree with Hairy regarding how conservatives argue across the point at times.
What Rob practices is definitely a form of journalism in my opinion, though he’s not a journalist in the sense of having a crack staff of editors to review vet everything that he posts, soI do think one has to be a bit of an ass-hat to crack wise at other peoples work, though in this age of pissant second guessing, I’m afraid it’s become more than a bit expected.
At least the MSM, politically slanted as it is, can’t straight up mistate the core facts
Totally LMAO. What complete bullshit.
Why don’t you aim that computer up in your ivory tower at another blog if we all suck so bad. Or you could quit the arrogant preaching to the rest of us about the quality of discourse and just debate the topic at hand.
If you scroll back into the archives, you’ll notice that I haven’t “debated” here in close to a year. Mostly because any attempt at debate here will get the predictable response of “God told me not to believe those facts or ignore that type of logic” from the likes of robert108 or “2 + 2 = 4 is just another Bush-administration conspiracy to screw us” from the likes of Hannitized. So I generally keep quiet.
It’s a good blog for news. That’s why I read it. And I post on occasion, like today, when I notice an obvious error in the “reporting” (or whatever you prefer to call it).
P.S., My tower is made of glass and steel, not ivory.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
SAB readers are not here to debate points, they are here to proselytize and be proselytized to.
You speak only for yourself.
“God told me not to believe those facts or ignore that type of logic” from the likes of robert108…
I have never said any such thing, either to you or to anyone else. You can’t even tell the truth in your feeble attempts at personal attack. Shame on you!
Since you use neither facts nor logic, you have no point here.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
Whatever the tower, Harry, that was quite a howler about mainstream media not misstating core facts. In my opinion, they do that more frequently than they get the core facts basically correct.
Carrick: Most of what the MSM does is to ignore facts that don’t agree with their extreme leftie agenda.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
Carrick,
I find myself, for the first time, agreeing with robert. I did admit that ignoring was often as bad as mistating. But mistating they cannot do, too many people would call them on it (as they did the NYTimes with that whole McCain having an affair with a lobbyest story—which was not even a mistake of facts, per se, but an allegation based on shoddy sources). The rest of the MSM(Left and Right) published editorials admonishing the Times for their careless journalism.
Whatever their propensity for BS, the free market still motivates the various MSM outlets to try and screw each other over. So pure mistatement of fact is something that wouldn’t fly.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
That’s only when they aren’t actively making up their own facts, when the facts on the ground don’t suit their agenda.
I see Rob’s role as an aggregator and sometimes commentator. I don’t see his job to be gatekeeper for the truth. I’d leave that to Harry, but if “At least the MSM, politically slanted as it is, can’t straight up mistate the core facts” is what he holds to be true, he can’t be trusted for that either.
Rob’s mistake, if it was one, was minor. Harry’s was a major blunder at best, and at worst, ....
So pure mistatement of fact is something that wouldn’t fly.
Except that happens all the time.
You really need examples?
Rob, you do a great job.
Anyone who does not or has not lived in the Reupulik of Caleeeeforneeeea in the last 30 years does not understand what a Nanny State it is. It is not the first response of Californians to doubt that a law like the one under discussion doesn’t exist. We shrug our shoulders and figure it is typical.
Try lighting a cigarette on or near a beach, even at your car in the parking lot. Same with whole towns in some counties. Pray your toddler doesn’t decide to have a tantrum in public or that you discipline the child for it and someone sees you.
You can march near naked in a Gay Pride parade, and the authorities turn a blind eye, complain about those marching down your boulevard half naked and risk getting charged for being a hateful bigot. Block traffic and denigrate our military and get a pass, but be proactive defending those who serve and be treated as a common criminal. Enter certain neighborhoods and get attacked and you risk being told that it is your fault for going into those neighborhoods where you aren’t wanted. Police brutality is rampant.
When I left here in 1987, I swore I’d never come back. Family circumstance and circumstances beyond my control forced me to return. Things were even worse than when I left. The state is “ruled” by social workers and liberal activists ready to pounce on any perceived infraction, so a law about cutting in line would not even generate surprise, it would be taken as more of the same. We are already used to similar laws, so it would be taken as SOP.
You really need examples?
Sure. Here are the conditions (to keep this fair):
1. Your example must be a major media outlet (that means TV or circulation of 100,000+).
2. The mistatement must be an incorrect fact, not a biased opinion, and not the absense of a valid, opposing fact (I said mistatement, not ignoring).
3. The incorrect fact must have an effect on the merits of the story (mispelling someone’s name or getting their birthdate wrong, unless it’s a story about the oldest person in the world, is not a real issue).
4. There must not have been a retraction or correction to fix the mistake.
5. MOST IMPORTANTLY: This has to be an incorrect fact on its own, not a statement that leads careless readers into assuming an incorrect fact to support the statement.
I appologize for the conditions, but I merely said that the MSM does not misstate core facts. This is what your example must disprove.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
HP: Here’s an example: Where is the reportage in the MSM on the good news from Iraq? Is it proportional to the actual amount of good news? Is it designed to give the impression that there is little or no good news from Iraq?
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
I admit to posting the sign before entirely checking out the law behind it.
So sue me.
What I took exception to was Harry’s overly-broad characterization of the discourse that goes on here, which I think was born more of his inability to make convincing arguments than any sound analysis. Also, the “liberals and conservatives both suck!” is the sort of Olympian (I’m really liking that term for Hairy) BS you hear from someone who is convinced that they, themselves, are totally objective.
Which is the problem with most mainstream journalists.
Sure, things often devolve into a pie-throwing contest around here, but it’s an open forum on the internet. One of the things that makes this site great, if I do say so myself, is that you almost literally have to do something illegal to get banned around here. That means a lot of assholes from both sides of the ideological spectrum get to post here along with the people more interested in serious discourse.
I don’t try to weed those people out because, frankly, I don’t trust myself to be objective. And I don’t want to be a referee.
At the end of the day, Say Anything was never intended to be a media outlet. I expound on politics here because my wife gets sick of hearing it. I cram the posts I write here in between leading a very busy “real” life.
I don’t get paid for this. I can’t afford editors. And I’ve never claimed to be churning out Pulitzer-quality stuff here. So to attack me as though the opposite of those things were true is a pretty asshole thing to do.
Not that many people who comment here have an aversion toward being an asshole to me. As a blogger, I think I’m rather singular in my willingness to take mountains of shit from my commenters with a smile.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
Rob,
You’ve become a media outlet. It’s unfortunate that you can’t afford to do this full-time, the site really is quality—in fact I know of one major outlet that gets its breaks from it. I didn’t attack you, I pointed out that this particular point was careless. We could have left it at that. Sorry if it seemed like an attack.
If you like “olympian,” then by all means, keep using it. Though, if you take a look at the comment just above your last, you’ll understand me if I quote DeLillo and point out that “even the hawk is an eagle among crows.”
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
You bash California regularly.
No, that would be me. Such a target rich environment.
Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed
Here’s an example: The beginning of the period for which it’s though that anthropogenic global warming began was 1980 (that’s what the global climate models actually say: before circa 1980, anthropogenic CO2 and sulfate emissions had roughly equal and opposite effects). Yet the media typically (I would characterize this as “always") conflates the 1850s, when the world naturally came out of a four century-long ice age, with the start of anthropogenic global warming.
They could fact check this and discover their error, not only do they not do so, they actively fight attempts to correct the record by characterizing anybody doing the correcting as either a denialist or a shill for the oil companies.
A second example, also global warming related, is the BS that oil companies are actively trying to undermine the global warming screed. They point to the limited amounts of dollars spent by Exxon-Mobile, or personal comments made by oil executives (who like many people think there is a lot of BS being slung by the media here), while ignoring the fact that for every dollar Exxon-Mobile has spent funding “denialists”, they’ve spent roughly 10 funding global warming proponents. (The problem here is not that Exxon-Mobile doesn’t support global warming research, the problem is that the advocates, including those in the media, object to any research critical to their screed being performed).
Even though I can come up with examples that fit your conditions, I’m going to to have to refuse to accept your scenario. Just because one can find a minority opinion within the media that contradicts the day-to-day version that keeps getting reported, does not let the media off the hook, if they continue to report the erroneous story. Secondly, it is not the responsibility of the reader to read the newsprint with the detail of a $1,000,000 lawyer. It is the responsibility of the media to print the news in a clear and non-misleading fashion. It does not get them off the hook to make the story easily misinterpretable, simply because they’ve included fine print that contradicts the main body of the story.
A second example is the Valerie Plame story. It is well known that Richard Armitage leaked her name to the press, and like a second-time virgin, there is no such think as a second-time leak. While they dutifully reported the truth when it became blatantly obvious, they have now reverted en bloc to the original erroneous statements that “White House officials” leaked her name.
To follow up on a previous comment, the fact that they earlier reported the truth, doesn’t excuse the retailing of the false version of events. Actually it just makes them blatant liars.
I admit to posting the sign before entirely checking out the law behind it.
To be clear, I didn’t expect you Rob. You have a life, too.
Carrick,
Seeing as how this is MSM we’re talking about, and not very difficult to find online, could you please link to the above-mentioned stories. I don’t mean to be difficult, but I would really like to read something with my own eyes before I stand corrected.
(Btw, last I checked, Richard Armitage was the Deputy Secretary of State under Condeleeza Rice. The State Department, a department of the executive branch, would make him a White House official—as opposed to a Congressional or Judicial official.)
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Carrick,
Ignore my last comment, I overlooked that you wrote the following:
Even though I can come up with examples that fit your conditions, I’m going to to have to refuse to accept your scenario. Just because one can find a minority opinion within the media that contradicts the day-to-day version that keeps getting reported, does not let the media off the hook, if they continue to report the erroneous story. Secondly, it is not the responsibility of the reader to read the newsprint with the detail of a $1,000,000 lawyer. It is the responsibility of the media to print the news in a clear and non-misleading fashion. It does not get them off the hook to make the story easily misinterpretable, simply because they’ve included fine print that contradicts the main body of the story.
In which case, we don’t really have anything to discuss do we? I made a point, your counterpoint had nothing to do with it. Refer back to my comment about how conservatives tend to argue
I’m more than happy to agree to disagree. Though I’m actually sincerely curious if you can find a story to fit my conditions. But until you do, your comment in the following:
Whatever the tower, Harry, that was quite a howler about mainstream media not misstating core facts. In my opinion, they do that more frequently than they get the core facts basically correct.
...is unsupported.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Hairy, last time I checked the State Department is not the White House.
But what are such distinctions when the media is in a rush to hang that “scandal” around Bush’s neck?
As for the rest, maybe I’ll allow that I may be being overly-prickly here. I take a lot of shit on this blog on a day-to-day basis, but I work hard on this stuff and it frustrates me when someone expects me to perform at the level of a professional reporter when really I’m just a hobbyist with a full-time job and a kettle-full of real-world responsibilities who, for some reason, has managed to attract a crowd.
If I make a mistake I’ll own up to it and do what I can to make a correction, but I don’t take kindly to petty barbs.
When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Rob’s recently listened-to songs:
Whatever their propensity for BS, the free market still motivates the various MSM outlets to try and screw each other over. So pure mistatement
of fact is something that wouldn’t fly.
The financial state of leftie newspapers disagrees with you. IMO, they are more motivated by the desire to propagandize than they are to market forces.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
Rob,
I really didn’t mean it as a petty barb. Your picture tried to paint a certain… picture of the California legislature, and turned out to do so dishonestly (even if your overall feelings about California are justified). I think that mine was a fair concern.
Also,
Hairy, last time I checked the State Department is not the White House.
Last I checked it was. Bush hires and fires all of that staff. It’s his staff. I don’t like the media hanging all of the world’s ills on Bush anymore than you do, and the insinuation in this case is blatant and insidious, but it is perfectly correct to call a staff member of the State Department a “White House official.”
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Wasn’t Colin Powell the Secy. of State when Richard Armitage leaked, not Condi?
We have nothing to discuss, Hairy, only because your scenario is a false one, for reasons that I have explained, and you have failed utterly to respond to my criticism of your scenario.
There is no “law” that I have to accept your conditions for any debate, and there is nothing unreasonable about my refusal to do so, as long as I give a satisfactory explanation, as I have, for why I am not doing so.
I have simply raised counterpoints to your original conditions, which you have failed to address. What doe this say about your debate style?
As to Richard Armitage being a member of Bush’s staff, that’s a just a ridiculous argument. He is a carry-on from the previous administration and was a bureaucrat within the State Department before his departure. Simply because he is a member of Bush’s administration, doesn’t make him “staff”. The vast majority of the Administration are in fact bureaucrats, and there are laws governing what Bush can and can’t do with them. And in case you haven’t been following current events, Bush doesn’t have arbitrary powers to hire/fire these individuals. You’re just 100% wrong here, and probably even arguing a point that you know to be foolish.
And part of my refusal to accept the scenario is in your attempt to abrogate the responsibility of the media to clearly and accurately state the truth, rather than state it in such a way as that plausible deniability can be applied as a defense when people misinterpret their intentionally misleading articles.
So pure mistatement (sic) of fact is something that wouldn’t fly.
To follow up on R108’s comment, this doesn’t follow logically. If the story is neutral, their individual fiscal incentives outweigh their political ones, but when the story is politically charged, as with AGW, their political leanings could easily take precedence, as an examination of their coverage of that story demonstrates that in fact it sometimes does so.
Put it another way, humans are driven by other motives than just greed.
But what are such distinctions when the media is in a rush to hang that “scandal” around Bush’s neck?
Actually, Rob, that’s putting it mildly. The intention seemed to be to put the administration on trial over what was at best a trivial matter. They wanted to “get” Bush, Cheney and Rove, and made no secret of that fact.
Put it another way, humans are driven by other motives than just greed.
My only quibble with you here, Carrick, is that self-interest isn’t equivalent to greed, except in Marxist ideology and MSM anti-business propaganda.
I find the govt to be greedy, not free people making free choices.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
As to Richard Armitage being a member of Bush’s staff, that’s a just a ridiculous argument. He is a carry-on from the previous administration and was a bureaucrat within the State Department before his departure.
How does that change the fact that he is a “White House official?” I’m not imputing any relevance to the fact that he is a White House official, I am merely pointing out that it is a correct label (therefore not factually incorrect).
We have nothing to discuss, Hairy, only because your scenario is a false one, for reasons that I have explained, and you have failed utterly to respond to my criticism of your scenario.
I failed to see where you criticized my scenario. All you said was that MSM spins its news to dishonestly influence the reader. I don’t disagree with that. My conditions are there to prove that the MSM doesn’t misstate core facts, not that the MSM is honest.
You are welcome to argue that my conditions are not a fair way to decide whether or not the example you give is an actual example of a misstatement of a core fact. I will argue for my position once you do so.
(Note how this is the second time that I had to point out that you are arguing something different than the original point of our discussion.)
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
HP: Here’s an example for you, from the last few days:
A day or so ago, the price of oil temporarily hit $143 and change, and the MSM trumpeted it as a “record"(which it was). Even though it fell back down to around $141 shortly thereafter, they continued to report the higher figure throughout the day, while hardly mentioning that it had gone back down.
This morning, when it hit $144 and change for a short time, it was again trumpeted as a “new record"(which it was), but it was reported as “a $3 increase”. Catch the error?
While not reporting the decrease after the $143 record, they used it as a benchmark to exaggerate today’s increase, instead of telling the truth that today’s record was only $1 higher than the previous one. IMO, this is dishonest reporting.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
IMO, this is dishonest reporting.
I agree. But your example doesn’t speak to the issue of the argument between Carrick and myself.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
My only quibble with you here, Carrick, is that self-interest isn’t equivalent to greed, except in Marxist ideology and MSM anti-business propaganda.
I find the govt to be greedy, not free people making free choices.
Main Entry: greed
Pronunciation: \ˈgrēd\
Function: noun
Etymology: back-formation from greedy
Date: 1609
: a selfish and excessive desire for more of something (as money) than is needed
White House personnel and appointed officials (Cabinet officials, etc.) are vetted by White House Personnel. The appointed officials also go thru Congressional approval. Lower ranking officials and standard bureau weenies are hired by their respective departments and they answer to their respective department heads. It is ludicrous to say that Bush is responsible for hiring and firing these persons. Good lord, how would he have time to do anything else? The number of government employees is massive.
It never ceases to amaze me what an immature view libs have about what running the United States is all about. They tend to see the President as no more than Dad sitting at the head of the table dispensing rules or punishment to a recalcitrant teen who stayed out after curfew with the family car.
They have the view that the President just pronounces and the entire world either jumps or else. They never see the hard work that must go on behind the scenes before it ever comes to public awareness. They do not understand the grueling hours and dedication it takes for even the lowest ranking jobs. They look at the president as some one with Emperor rights and not an executive with a myriad of important issues to lead on, referee about, or argue against. They have no idea the amount of cult of personalities the president has to navigate in order to get any idea off the ground.
They want flash and iron edicts, not someone steady as they go who knows when to compromise, knows when getting half a loaf is better than none, who knows that controversial items are best done in small increments building on success step by baby step.
They hate Bush because he is a steady as you go kind of guy. They hate him because he refuses to respond to their incessant whining and attacks. They hate him because he works for what he believes is best for the country, not necessarily best for their small-minded interests. They hate him for never losing sight of the ultimate goals and for not allowing them to distract from those goals.
They remind me of my kids when they were teenagers and trying to convince me that I should change the rules just because their friends were doing something. They remind me of the way they used to try to deflect the subject and put me on the defensive to save their butts when they were in trouble. And most of all they remind me of the kids when they tried to lay a guilt trip on me when I took a hard line on something that I knew was ultimately in their best interest but that they saw as me being a big bad meanie.
Pal,
Notwithstanding your highly informative diatribe on how White House officials are hired, the MSM is still correct to call them “White House officials”.
You can save yourself some time next time by sticking to the issue at hand.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
Harry, you are doing what you claim we do, which is to argue across points.
The purpose of framing it as “white house staff/officials” is to imply culpability on the part of Bush/Cheney. You know this, I know you know this, so stop wasting everybody’s time. My recommendation.
You can save yourself some time next time by sticking to the issue at hand
Okay, Hairy, but then don’t make stupid remarks that beg to be addressed. Deal?
I agree. But your example doesn’t speak to the issue of the argument between Carrick and myself.
I’m under no obligation to follow any rules of your devising, nor is Carrick. My point is the ongoing, highly agendized, leftie propaganda output of the MSM.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
Carrick,
Harry, you are doing what you claim we do, which is to argue across points.
The purpose of framing it as “white house staff/officials” is to imply culpability on the part of Bush/Cheney. You know this, I know you know this, so stop wasting everybody’s time.
Haven’t you noticed that I have, thus far, conceded every single point (including the above)? I am not arguing across points, I am arguing that you will not find a factual misstatement in the MSM. Calling a State Department head a White House official is misleading, but it is not factually incorrect.
1. I never claimed that the MSM is not full of shit. In fact, I will be the first person here to admit that.
2. I merely claimed that market forces prevent the MSM from blatantly misstating facts.
You keep giving me examples of #1, to which I never disagreed with you, and you have yet to address #2. In order to address #2, you would have to follow my conditions or, at the very least, explain to me why my conditions are unfair.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
I am arguing that you will not find a factual misstatement in the MSM.
I’ve already given examples of that. Any issue where ther is a clear political agenda, the MSM will place the agenda in front of the facts. AGW is a classic example of this, and it is repleat with examples.
Again, simply because somebody along the road corrects the record does excuse future repetitions of the same falsehood. In fact, it makes those future repetitions worse, because the person is being willfully deceitful at this point.
Calling a State Department head a White House official is misleading, but it is not factually incorrect.
A distinction without a difference.
HP: IMO, you have hedged your statement about MSM perfidy so closely that no answer has real meaning, according to you. In fact, the widespread MSM propaganda regarding the unproven hypothesis of human-caused global warming is a great example of MSM lying.
I find your invocation of “market forces” to be particularly hilarious, since the MSM is the way it is due to it’s near-monopoly in the public information market. The truth is, the entertainment industry sector of the MSM is constantly making money-losing anti-Iraq War movies, and yet continues with them, in complete disregard of market forces, which would favor movies favorable to our troops and our fight against Islamic terrorism. The continuing financial hemorrhaging of leftie newspapers is also an indication of MSM disregard of market forces. The ascent of Fox News and the declining viewership of the major TV news networks is further evidence of MSM disregard of market forces. It has been obvious to me for some time that the MSM is far more dedicated to being the propaganda ministry for the Dem Party than it is to being responsive to market forces.
If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?
Carrick,
I’ve already given examples of that. Any issue where ther is a clear political agenda, the MSM will place the agenda in front of the facts.
You have given me examples of nothing but the MSM structuring stories in such a way as to push an agenda. You have yet shown me one misstatement of fact.
Are you really having trouble differentiating between the two issues or are you just being stubborn?
A distinction without a difference.
Then I guess you are having trouble differentiating between misstatement and misleading.
Okay. I’ll be heading back to Olympus now.
“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera
You have yet shown me one misstatement of fact.
Anthropogenic global warming is not a fact, but the MSM keeps announcing it as one. Get it?
In 1968, the MSM lied about the outcome of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam. It was a tremendous victory for