Say Anything Blog

I have really mixed emotions about this.

On the one hand…

In many cases, the public school system makes no effort to accomodate parents with more conservative beliefs. Additionally, many schools have a complete absense of any enforcement of appropriate behavior. It’s not uncommon to see kids making out and groping each other right in the hallway. We seem to have lost our understanding that one of school’s function is to teach children how responsible adults behave in the workplace and in public.

Could you imagine Safeway allowing two of it’s courtesy clerks to make-out and grope each other in the front of the store. Could you imagine Bank of America allowing the people behind the counter to come to work dressed like drug dealers and prostitutes. Of course not all schools are the same. Some schools have more responsible leadership (usually a strong principal willing to piss parents off and take stands unpopular with parents and board members). But some schools are so lax that most parents would be shocked. This is because...while we have standards for math, we have no standards for conduct.

So I can see why some parents don’t want to send their kids to public school. The fear that eheir kids will be influenced by the hypersexual, hip-hop/MTV atmosphere that exists at some schools.

On the other hand…

There are a lot of parents out there who function at a 4th or 5th grade level. They don’t know (maybe they forgfot since they were in school) how to add fractions or punctuate a sentence, let alone explain photosynthesis or plate tectonics. Here in California, with the last decades immigration wave, we’ve gotten a lot of parents who can’t read or write (even in Spanish). If a child is home schooled and the parent is prepared or really interested, then that kid is going to be cheated out of an education.

There are no easy answers

Wing Chun: In most states, parents must demonstrate their competence to home school their child. In any case, the child belongs to the parents and not to the state.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Home schooling requires a substantial parental commitment.  How many parents with a 4th or 5th grade education and no teaching skills are likely to attempt it?

We lived on our sailboat in the Caribbean for seven years, during which we met quite a few parents who taught their kids because there was no viable alternative. The kids also had a wonderful experience in encountering different cultures and new responsibilities. Standing watch from midnight till 4:00 am out in the ocean, with responsibility for the boat and the family on board is instructive. Almost without exception, those kids were great!  They knew how to interact with both kids and adults, and when they returned to the States they were well ahead of their peers who had received traditional public school “education.”

Of course, there are people who should not attempt to home-school their children. There are also people who shouldn’t drive.  That is not a valid reason for preventing everyone from driving.

As parents become less and less responsible for their children, and the state become more and more the super nanny, I fear for our country.

Dan Miller

Incidentally, the right to home school, like abortion, is an unenumerated right under the 14th amendment.

I’ll note also that there was a very tantalizing footnote in the opinion, alluding to other proceedings in family court that the family is involve in.  These may be the kinds of people that Dan Miller suggests shouldn’t be able to school their own kids.

Arguably it is an enumerated right under the First Amendment, as a religious right to educate one’s own children.

Fourth Amendment arguments have also been made for homeschooling.

The Religion of No School?  I’ll be tons of kids would love to convert to that.

Does anybody know if the decision is online?

But they have to pay taxes,cut taxes.

Rob: No matter how you might see a legitimate role for the government in education, and I agree; why do we need a multi-billion dollar Department of Education as a Federal enforcer of education standards? Why does the federal government have a right to mandate programs like no child left behind, except they redistribute our money to stagtes and school districts?

When did we give the Federal, State or even local governments the sole rights to indoctrinate our children?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Rob: By the way thanks for taking this thread to the Front Page and removing it from the insanity that was going on over there so we could discuss this intelligently!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Scarry.  This appers to be following the “best interest of the child” initiative coming out of the UN.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

Watch how tese two get tied together and more parental rights end up lost to the State.

atease

atease

On the other hand…

There are a lot of parents out there who function at a 4th or 5th grade level. They don’t know (maybe they forgfot since they were in school) how to add fractions or punctuate a sentence, let alone explain photosynthesis or plate tectonics. Here in California, with the last decades immigration wave, we’ve gotten a lot of parents who can’t read or write (even in Spanish). If a child is home schooled and the parent is prepared or really interested, then that kid is going to be cheated out of an education.

Wing Chun,

Herein lies the dilemma… and the danger.  Because in essence the government is saying to those parents who are intelligent enough, and conscientious enough to do a better job educating their children that because others are not so intelligent and not so conscientious we are going to take the prerogative away from all of you.  It is, in reality, one more instance of the state imposing on everyone the lowest common denominator… for the “common good”.

The uncommon, the exceptional, are not to be tolerated in the name of protecting those who are common and unexceptional.  The “dumbing down” of American education continues.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Children are tested to determine their skills at many grade levels.  This testing is done nationally.  Here in PA, we have to turn in our kids test scores along with their work from the grade level they are in.  This is reviewed by the school district we live in.  They have the ability to stop children from being home schooled.

This is where those who are not capable of educating their kids are weeded out of being a home schooled family.

Hopefully this answers the “on the other hand” concerns.

atease

atease

This testing is done nationally.  Here in PA, we have to turn in our kids test scores along with their work from the grade level they are in.

This is a crazy, atease.

I disagree with Rob and those that say the Goverment should have any role at all in education.

The private sector is more efficient, capable and less intrusive.

What Pennsylvania is doing is a perfect example of how the left will eventually dominate our lives.

They tell atease, you can home school only if you agree that we test them. To what standards? The same standards they arbitrarily set elsewhere? (HUD is a good example)

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

This issue reminds me of the “Don’t steal, the government hates the competition” bumper sticker.

The fact is homeschooling makes public education out as a farce in many instances.  They can’t stand that.

The solution is to break up the public school monopoly.  Get the government out of the business of providing an education.  By and large they suck at it.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

I disagree with Rob and those that say the Goverment should have any role at all in education.

I don’t see a problem with the government supplying a “safety net” of public education for any parent that would choose it for their children. But the operative word, to steal one from the liberals, is choice! Parents should have the choice to send their children to the school which they believe is in the best interest of their children.

If the government wants to support education with tax dollars, they should provide that support in the form of vouchers, so that the money follows the student for his education. As directed by the people with the most invested in that student, the parents (not the state).

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

To add to Proof’s point, the government is concerned NOT with the Children but with “what’s best for the faculty and administration.”

Put this in a consumer model with the parents making decisions based on what’s best for their children, and we’ll see a very large improvement.

The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.

The decision is here.

While I’m no lawyer, I find the court’s reasoning horribly flawed, and they so much as admit that part of the public schools’ function is student indoctrination [all emphasis in all quotes is added]:

“In obedience to the constitutional mandate to bring about a general diffusion of knowledge and intelligence, the Legislature, over the years, enacted a series of laws.  A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare.” [citation of a U.S. Supreme Court case.]

Then they contradict themselves:

California’s Provisions for Compulsory Education of Minor Children Article IX, section 1 of California’s Constitution states: “A general diffusion of knowledge and intelligence being essential to the preservation of the rights and liberties of the people, the Legislature shall encourage by all suitable means the promotion of
intellectual, scientific, moral, and agricultural improvement.”

Which is later followed by, “It is clear that the education of the children at their home, whatever the quality of that education, does not qualify for the private full-time day school or credentialed tutor exemptions from compulsory education in a public full-time day school.”

“Nor was the Turner court persuaded by the parents’ contention that the education being provided to their children in their home was as good or better than the children would have obtained in a public or private school or through a credentialed tutor, and therefore the purpose of the statutes was satisfied. The court stated California’s legislative scheme makes no such exemption to attendance in a public school. (Turner, supra, 121 Cal.App.2d Supp. at p. 868-869; accord Shinn, supra, 195 Cal.App.2d, at p. 694, where the court stated that “[h]ome education, regardless of its worth, is not the legal equivalent of attendance in school in the absence of instruction by qualified private tutors.”)”

So much for the law’s INTENT of making sure children are getting a good education.

While they admit that the CA Education Code does not specifically forbid home schooling, they rely on questionable case law to support that opinion. 

The two main cases they rely upon had rulings against home schooling based on the fact that the parents had failed to show that their children were being educated in compliance with the law, not that home schooling was not legal (which, to be accurate, is also the case here - the parents did not, in a legal sense, prove that their children were being properly educated.  They only argued as to why they should not have to attend public school.) The citations they quote from those two cases are particularly troubling:

“The Turner court observed that the court in Hoyt stated it would be an unreasonable burden on the state to have to supervise each and every home in which a child was being educated...Turner also held that the subject former statutes were neither arbitrary nor unreasonable when they required that teachers in private full-time day schools only be “persons capable of teaching” and did not have to hold a valid teaching credential for the grade being taught, but did require that a home tutor hold such a credential. The court observed that whereas it is unreasonably difficult and expensive for a state to supervise parents who instruct children in their homes, supervising teachers in organized private schools is less difficult and expensive.”

Or in other words, your children’s education is subordinate to the convenience of the state.

LDS, all children are tested whether they are in a public, private, or home school environment.  It is a part of NCLB to insure all of our kids are learning.  Shoot, we even took certain tests when I was in school.  Only now, it is much more often.

What PA does is require an evaluator to review what the child has done over the past year and it must show improvement throughout the year and over the previous year.  The evaluator is paid by the family and is usually has a teaching background of some sorts.  PA is more stringent than many other states, but we are the second largest home school community behind only California. 

There is a pwoerful home school legal team, so I bet there will be more on this case at a higher level.

atease

atease

I don’t see a problem with the government supplying a “safety net” of public education for any parent that would choose it for their children.

Proof,

Like you I’ve always favored a voucher system or some method of giving parents choice. I just don’t think that goverment schools should be one of their choices. The state should not be involved in education. Why would any reasonable person believe the goverment would be even an adequate substitute for the private sector?

A “safety net” implies a degree of competence by the high wire act that is performed by the DoE.

Low income families should not have the disadvantage of relying solely on the goverment. Three or four of us sitting in a room for a few hours could provide alternative solutions far better than what is currently in place.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

atease,

I understand that there is mandated testing. I just think the arrogance of the goverment in this is boundless.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

I’ve always favored a voucher system or some method of giving parents choice. I just don’t think that goverment schools should be one of their choices.

If you look at the history of public schooling, public schools were first instituted (get a rain poncho here, some liberal heads will ‘splode!) to make sure that the general populace could read...the Bible! They were taught their letters with the old New England horn book:

In Adam’s Fall, sinned we all.

It’s not government schools, per se that are the problem. It’s the indoctrination into liberalism at the expense of teaching students to think for themselves that constitutes the biggest problem.

With a voucher system, I think that many of the poorer excuses for government schools would have to close. The good ones would survive.  Competition is a good thing!

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Proof: Amen! Exactly right old boy! Bloody marvelous!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It’s not government schools, per se that are the problem. It’s the indoctrination into liberalism at the expense of teaching students to think for themselves that constitutes the biggest problem.

Yep. But that same liberalism has produced a huge bureaucracy that refuses to recognize that drastic renovation is needed. The government never conforms to improvement with reduction, always the opposite.

So in reality, the government is the problem.

We can’t allow a consortium of state and union officials to determine to curriculum. If this is done instead by multiple independent bodies, competition will succeed where a monopoly has failed.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

So in reality, the government is the problem.

Thank you Mrs Reagan!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

With a voucher system, I think that many of the poorer excuses for government schools would have to close. The good ones would survive.  Competition is a good thing!

We stand in agreement about the competition. But government is a hindrance to that goal and a poor competitor.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Neiman,

Since you didn’t tag that comment with sarcasm, I’ll assume it was sincere.

I don’t want astrologist to determine our curriculum either. (smile)

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Good points, Sally!  And lets not forget what John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Christopher Dodd, John Corzine and many other libs all share in common…

THEY ALL WENT TO PRIVATE HIGH SCHOOLS! 

Indeed, many of the most leftist thinkers, elite and intelligencia of the liberal movement in this country are PRIVATE SCHOOL graduates.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

California with this court opinion confirms their status as the first communist state.  Ever read Animal Farm?  The state must control the “education” of every person to insure they are not taught any individual thinking or freedom of thoughts.

Communism is evil

Here in Missouri we don’t even have to let the schools know we’re homeschooling.  No testing is required, either.  I don’t have to have a GED or diploma of any kind.  There are many homeschooling families in the state, yet I don’t see any crisis because the homeschoolers were educated poorly.

I find even the comments that imply that we somehow need to monitor these children to make sure they’re doing well very chilling.  Good grief, we have a ton of testing in the public schools and we all know there are some you wouldn’t want the children of your worst enemy attending.

Thanks Mrs. C.  South Carolina passed a law allowing homeschooling sometime around 1984--how coincidental!  The US Supreme court decided this about forty years ago with the Amish case, and this California case in the 9th Circuit will probably work its way again to the US Supreme court.

Communism is evil

Good points, Sally!  And lets not forget what John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Christopher Dodd, John Corzine and many other libs all share in common…

THEY ALL WENT TO PRIVATE HIGH SCHOOLS!

And your point is....?

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Let’s hope Chief RZ!

If they are home-schooled the hispanic demographics that Wing Chun addressed will be at a loss; however, this california law doesn’t seem to think about the people who would benefit more from home-schooling--and of course, freedom of choice.

Should we help the thousands from carrying us into ignorance in California by sacrificing our right to choose our education?

I don’t agree with this law, there has got to be some alternatives to the hispanic’s education.

What was this law’s original reason for being put into action?

dirl126.  I believe that most of these forced public education laws were pushed by the NEA-Union which is at least socialist based as well as monopolistic.  Most reasons are to keep incompetent teachers in the classroom while indoctrinating our children with communist ideas.

Communism is evil

laydownSally:

And your point is...?

This:

The private sector is more efficient, capable and less intrusive.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

pparets,

I was confused as to why you had only ultra-libs in that group.

I’m a little slow on the uptake sometimes, Public school graduate that I am.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Chief RZ & Dirl126: We can lay the blame for the on-going assault on our public schools at the feet of Jimmy Carter who created the Department of Education [in clear violation of the Framer’s intent!] as a sop to the NEA for their vigorous support of him in 1976.

Like so many other disasters we are now trying to clean up after just four years of Carter, we can include the mess in Afghanistan and the creation of the Islamic Republic of Iran, after Carter turned his back on the Shah and flew the Ayatollah home to Tehran from Paris.

Many of us in the republican party smiled with a certain amount of sad sympathy for ‘poor’ Bob Dole when he pledged in his nomination acceptance speech that he would dismantle the Department of Education and drive the NEA out of our classrooms.

How right he was!!  ...Yet many conservatives didn’t support him because he just wasn’t conservative enough. Will we never learn?

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

laydownSally:  Hahahaha!  You are the best!!
[and, of course, being a public school graduate myself, I failed to make my point clear.]

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

THIS ELECTION IS ABOUT TWO THINGS: WINNING THE WAR ON TERRORISM AND SAVING THE SUPREME COURT.

Oh me too : P

I wouldn’t have it any other way.

Lots of misinformation here; those who really want to take a good look at the issues involved would do well to visit http://www.hslda.org.  Laws vary state by state, but there is also federal precedent that establishes the right of parents to direct the education of their children.

So we’ve got a curious issue (thanks Justin) where somehow this case got to the appellate level without the HSLDA apparently becoming involved (odd, even if they weren’t members), and we also have this case coming to court without the federal precedent being heeded.

Huh?  My prediction; HSLDA gets involved in this, or the next, case, and Kahleefornia/LAUSD get spanked, hard.

Over at the Reason Foundation website, the following description is used to introduce the Drew Carey Project, supporting attempts by local parents to convert one of Los Angeles’ worst public schools into a Green Dot charter school… despite vehement opposition from, who else, the teachers’ union.

Check out the Drew Carey Project video if you’ve not yet seen it.  THIS is what the California Appellate Court would condemn all California school children to.

When looking for a symbol that epitomizes the way public schools are failing our kids, look no further than Locke High School in Watts. Approximately 75 percent of 9th graders entering Locke do not graduate in four years. And less than five percent of Locke students go on to attend four-year colleges. It’s hard to learn when you fear for your life. In the 2003-2004 school year, there were three sex offenses, 17 robberies, 25 batteries, and 11 assaults with a deadly weapon at Locke.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

pparets.  You are correct 1976.  I listened to the vote.  It passed in the house by one vote.  BTW.  Obama et al are trying to fool the people.  Local school districts pay about 50%, states 40% and the Federal Government < 10%.  They cause discipline problems in schools by trying to create a “handicap” as not being able to follow directions!

Communism is evil