Say Anything Blog

Want to bet Obama, Pelosi and Reid don’t agree?

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

it’s a pretty smart move if you ask me

sending our troops to Georgia is stupid. its not our fight. we got baited into this by the Georgian leader. he actually said, “this is not about georgia, this is about america”

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Yes, this is an excellent way of interposing US ‘tripwire’ troops into the equation under the guise of humanitarian aid.

I just wonder where this will end up.  Many wars have been started by those who misunderestimated the opposition.

Hitler guessed that Russia was a vast, incapacitated giant and that all he had to do was to kick in the door and the rest of the rotting structure would collapse.  Tojo thought the same thing of the weak and ineffectual US of A, as did Saddam vis-a-vis Iran and then the USA again (see April Glaspie) as did Noriega, the Argentinians the English, and so on….

We have long sought avoiding a shooting war with Russia.  But by their actions, they may yet force our hand.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

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AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Actually it is our war, and for the following reasons.

An international act of aggression is never done in isolation.

It is a statement to all and sundry.  It telegraphs the intentions and capabilities of the actors.  Moreover, by an opponents failure to act, it signals to everyone worldwide and with particular effect on countries in the region, whether aggression will be tolerated or smacked down.

I seem to recall the words of one great Democrat:

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

JFK understood that international affairs do not unfold in a vacuum.  It is just as true today.  Just as it has been throughout recorded history.

I wonder Sparkie.  Have you ever served your country?

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Maybe we should just send bush to go look into his eyes again.

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

I was reading the comments at Newsweek about “where is the US” and everyone was blaming Bush for the US “not doing anything” because of Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.  What a bunch of losers.  Damned if you do, damned if you don’t - BDS gone too far.

In my opinion, Bush is the guy I want in charge right now and I think that this is an excellent way to respond.  While we don’t want a war with Russia, we absolutely cannot afford to have the world see us praising a country for democratic reforms in 2005 then abandoning it in 2008 when it looks like a little effort would be required to maintain the friendship.  Let’s not forget that Georgia has provided the 3rd largest contingent in Iraq.

We should help Georgia rebuild and stage forces there to help keep the region stable - even if part of that role includes ensuring that Georgia doesn’t get overzealous with regard to s. Ossetia & Abkhazia.

We’ve been in Kosovo since the Clinton years and nobody seems to remember that he gutted the military then proceeded to send reserves into Kosovo when we weren’t even at war.  (Kinda reminds me of Pelosi’s policy WRT the SPR.)

Until Reagan, all during the Cold War the Soviet Union could pretty much get by with their military adventures, occupying Eastern Bloc Countries, etcetera; oh the US and Europe would bluster and scream, but no one was willing to sop the Soviets. Bush sending in humanitarian aid is not exactly an act of aggression; but besides the very real need to provide that aid, it is a quiet way for Bush to tell Putin, you’ve gone far enough.

Appeasement, the Obama doctrine does not work, it takes a willingness to stand our ground that makes the difference. Reagan knew that, so does Bush and I think McCain understands that difference too, Obama is surfing and thinking how to appease Putin.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

sending our troops to Georgia is stupid. its not our fight. we got baited into this by the Georgian leader. he actually said, “this is not about georgia, this is about america”

The only thing stupid is your cowardly statement.  You obviously aren’t a student of Russian history.  If you were you would know that we followed your logic after WWII only to see Russian gobble up most of middle Europe.  It should be clesr to even the stupid like you that this is just the first stage of Russias goal to rule over its former states if only by proxie as it installs puppet governments.

One of the most important talents for success in politics is the ability to make utter nonsense sound not only plausible but inspiring. Barack Obama has that talent. We will be lucky if we escape the catastrophes into which other countries have been led by leaders with that same charismatic talent.
-Thomas Sowell

rbb:

Maybe we should just send bush to go look into his eyes again.

Pal, you don’t have the brains God gave a retarded goose, just the goose crap coming out of your mouth.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

I can’t believe it, but I actually agree w/ RBB.  Bush’s “looked in his eyes” statement was utter foolishness, right up there with when Ted Turner said something similar about Castro (or was it Hugo Chavez?).

Sparkie, Saakashvili is no dummy.  He knows good goddam well that our pressing for Georgian inclusion in NATO (as well as other former Soviet republics) would be disastrous for Russia’s standing in the region.  To say that this is about America is not news to anyone - pretty much every occurrence in inter-country affairs has to do with America, since countries either align themselves with the world’s sole superpower or against it.  Putin/Medvedev are quite obviously testing the ties of America’s allies in Europe and in the former Soviet republics who have democratized.

Sparkie, in case you haven’t noticed, the world is taking sides (as they have been for several years).  This invasion by Russia is clarifying (and will continue to clarify) who’s an ally and who’s not.  Saying it’s “not our fight” is ludicrous.  Aligning democracies in Eastern Europe with the rest of NATO is smart policy, and as the pact says, “an attack on one is an attack on all.”  This is most certainly “our fight.”

Until Reagan, all during the Cold War the Soviet Union could pretty much get by with their military adventures…

But… but… but, Neiman, Jimmy Carter did boycott the Moscow Olympics!  You mean to tell us that didn’t count for anything?

But his intentions… what about his oh-so-noble (or was it Nobel?) intentions?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Like I said earlier, I hope there is an aircraft carrier group much closer now, to stand off Georgia for MEDICAL help…

I wonder Sparkie. Have you ever served your country?

Nice attack ‘to the man’. Nothing like making it personal, eh, Zig? I have never been in the armed forces, no. I have never been a cop or a judge, no. That’s why you know that I have absolutely no conflicts of interest. As far as JFK’s comment goes, I agree. Unfortunately the idea that this Georgian leader is in it for democracy is horseshit. Democracy is the ability to self-determine. The area he attempted to gain control over DID NOT WANT TO BE CONTROLLED BY HIM. People who seek to put other people under their thumb against those others wishes are not supporting democracy by any stretch of the imagination.
“Democracy” is now just a fucking buzzword. Y’all have sullied it to mean “someone who does what we want” and that ain’t the proper etymology.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

war was provacated by the United States. Georgia is almost entirely an American product. It’s military has been funded by the U.S.

Prior to the Georgia-Russia conflict, roughly 2,000 U.S., Gergian and other Eastern European countries held training and wargames in Georgia.

Not only is the U.S. financially and militarily backing Georgia, so is Israel. The International Herald Tribune reports that three former Israeli generals serve as Georgian military advisers, as well as supplying them with infantry weapons , electronics for artillery systems, and has helped upgrade their Soviet-designed SU-25 ground attack jets.

Of course, western media will never tell you any of this as this is just as much a information war as anything else.

Democracy is the ability to self-determine. The area he attempted to gain control over DID NOT WANT TO BE CONTROLLED BY HIM. People who seek to put other people under their thumb against those others wishes are not supporting democracy by any stretch of the imagination.

So, Sparkie, was Abe Lincoln an anti-democratic dictator?

If New Mexico tried to secede, and we sent in troops to prevent a Mexican takeover, would you think America was in the wrong for protecting its sovereign territory?

I would be more at ease if it was a mixed assortment of medical aide going in.

I am tired of the “Let America get thier collective asses shot off” then we can go in.

If the people of the world want peace, they should be stepping up to the plate along with America.

‘A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.’  - Thomas Jefferson.

If the people of the world want peace, they should be stepping up to the plate along with America.

Sanity: Amen!  I’m especially intrigued by Obama’s original response to the crisis (both sides need to show restraint to avoid all-out war).  I’m not sure where the left gets this notion that the absence of flying bullets means peace.  It’s obviously a necessary condition, but it’s by no means a sufficient one.

sanity.
thanks for the sanity.
other guy

So, Sparkie, was Abe Lincoln an anti-democratic dictator?

If New Mexico tried to secede, and we sent in troops to prevent a Mexican takeover, would you think America was in the wrong for protecting its sovereign territory?

I wholly support the states’ right to secede. If the Fed paid attention to the 10th amendment, that’d be something, but they don’t. The constitution provides us the right to secede when the situation calls for it, and it does. Also, I think Lincoln was right and wrong. I am against slavery, but I support states rights.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

“Democracy” is now just a fucking buzzword. Y’all have sullied it to mean “someone who does what we want” and that ain’t the proper etymology.

Sparkie,

That’s pretty f**king cynical for someone as young as you.  And a bit more inclusive with that “Y’all” shit than might be considered prudent too.  Don’t you agree?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

US out of New Mexico!

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

That’s pretty f**king cynical for someone as young as you.

Hey, stop bending words around your personal political ambitions and I will be less cynical. The idea that we are supporting democracy by helping this Georgian shoot dissidents is fucking laughable.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

I wonder Sparkie.  Have you ever served your country?

Sparkie: I have never been in the armed forces, no. I have never been a cop or a judge, no. That’s why you know that I have absolutely no conflicts of interest.

It makes a big difference! But, I’ll ask the question differently, have you ever risked your life, your fortune or your sacred, nix that make it personal honor, in a selfless way for anyone or anything greater than yourself? In other words have you in an act of selflessness, ever risked anything for anyone?

Is there anyone or anything more important to you than you?

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

The idea that we are supporting democracy by helping this Georgian shoot dissidents is fucking laughable.

When those dissidents are shooting their fellow citizens who elected their own government?  Give me a break.

Lefties talk about emigrating for Canada if Bush, McCain, etc. get elected all the time.  I have no problem with that.  But when they talk about open revolution and violence against fellow citizens if someone is installed in office through democratic processes, that’s not “states’ rights”, it’s treason.  Get a clue, Sparkie.

Hey, stop bending words around your personal political ambitions and I will be less cynical. The idea that we are supporting democracy by helping this Georgian shoot dissidents is fucking laughable.

That is your twisted, liberal opinion. It is worthless! In international politics nothing, I mean nothing is tidy, it is a messy business and it takes courage to do the right thing, not the Leftist expedient, appeasement thing, but the right thing.

Bush, despite your own BDS and the terrible polls and despite my own disagreements with him on some policies, has a record of doing the right thing and saying to hell with the polls or the opinions of the MSM, doing the right thing because it is right. That is a profile in courage pal!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Spark,

It’s a centrally-held belief of mine that a citizen ought to, at some point and in some manner, serve his country.

Some serve by keeping the peace as a domestic cop, others caring for the sick and wounded in hospitals.  Many others serve by picking up a rifle or otherwise wearing the uniform of their country.

Perhaps it’s easy for you to stand by while the Soviets do their own thing all over again.  Safety and Freedom, bought for you through the sacrifices of others, are too sweet for you to contemplate risking while others are being killed.

You opine an awful lot on freedom, and your own concept of justice.

I wonder what you have ever done—on your own part—to earn it for yourself and fellow citizens?

I don’t think playing troll and instigator to a conservative blog counts toward that end.

For those who have fought for it, freedom has a special flavor the protected will never know

The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life.

—Theodore Roosevelt

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

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AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Neiman
For someone who doesn’t know me or what I do with my life, you are being pretty fucking fresh.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sparkie,

I’m not “bending” anything.  My sole comment (thus far) was about the hopeless ineptitude of that capon, Jimmy Carter.

As for Russia and Georgia, I believe there is an old aphorism, often attributed to Napolean, that fits,

Scratch a Russian… find a Tartar!

Putin is building an empire… an empire centered on oil and gas.  He has effectively neutralized the so-called European community, and will gradually shepherd the former Soviet Republics back under his Russian umbrella if allowed to do so.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Not only is the U.S. financially and militarily backing Georgia, so is Israel…

...Of course, western media will never tell you any of this as this is just as much a(sic) information war as anything else.

We already know that Georgia and Israel are both US allies, both politically and militarily.  What does your comment add to the discussion other than innuendo that this is some sort of plot by the eeevil joooos and a conspiracy by the joooo controlled media?

sonofasillyman
I said nothing about violence or revolution in the case of NM. I was talking about peaceful secession. Nice strawman.
therestofyou
I have served my STATE. I have volunteered at many capacities and I am certified as a firearms specialist by my STATE. When my STATE needs me, I will be ready.
Since I have moved out of my state, I have volunteered teaching young, poor people how to do photography after school. Guess what? I didn’t get paid.
Did you get paid for your service Zig? O selfless one? You too Neiman, spare me the bullshit. You are one of the most self-centered people on this whole blog.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Neiman

For someone who doesn’t know me or what I do with my life, you are being pretty fucking fresh.

By asking questions or is it questions you don’t want to answer for fear of being exposed.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

bat

will gradually shepherd the former Soviet Republics back under his Russian umbrella if allowed to do so

70,000 people! and a few acres. that’s what we’re talking about here. he did not ‘take georgia’. now its the whole of the steppes, all the former Russian states, Europe is at risk! give me a break.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

I said nothing about violence or revolution in the case of NM. I was talking about peaceful secession. Nice strawman.

Sorry for the confusion, I was going back to Georgia, which most definitely had violent dissidents (which is why both Russia and Georgia had peacekeepers in the region in the first place).

70,000 people! and a few acres.

Oh, and that pesky little oil pipeline that would give Russia a monopoly over oil shipments out of the region….

Oh, and that pesky little oil pipeline that would give Russia a monopoly over oil shipments out of the region…

Well, that’s a bit fucking different than democracy now isn’t it? What rhetorical device are you guys employing here?

Give me a break! Still!

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

A soldier’s pay, or in my case, a Marine’s pay, is a ridiculously small sum to expect in exchange for willingly running toward the sound of guns. 

Here’s a hint: a lot of servicemen don’t serve because of the pay.  They serve in spite of it.  They serve because it is a higher calling (and are usually pissed off when it calls for sweeping, swabbing dusting and painting rocks)

So, is your response then that somehow paying someone a small wage is all the thanks they should expect for risking life and limb for their fellow citizens?

A little defensive are we?

Did I strike a nerve?

A bit too close to that yellow streak that runs through your soul?

A quick glance in the mirror infuriated you perhaps?

Sorry to discomfort you.

My apologies.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Did you get paid for your service Zig? O selfless one? You too Neiman, spare me the bullshit. You are one of the most self-centered people on this whole blog.

Yes Zig, we hit a yellow nerve!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

MZ
You just are being personal. Its tacky and it doesn’t improve the quality of your poor arguments.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Well, that’s a bit fucking different than democracy now isn’t it?

Sparkie,

That statement proves the motives of Russia are more sinister than you suppose, not that America is not concerned about a democracy being threatened. What is wrong with your head that you have to assume the worst of America and the best of the enemies of democracy?

HG
We have heard that its about democracy. That the whole of eurasia is threatened. That Putin just wants the pipeline. Now you are saying because there is some sort of infrastructure on this piece of land that PROVES Putin’s motives are automatically sinister? Give me a fucking break. On Friday night, the leader of Georgia went into that area and started shooting people. Whatever Putin’s motives are, that action by the Georgian was effing stupid because he gave Putin an in. Now we are stepping and fetching at the behest of stupid leaders of podunk Russian states who are invoking Democracy to bail out of a botched attempt to shoot dissidents.

Yup. It’s totally cut and dry. It’s like a fucking Rambo man! A MARINE can solve this!

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Hey Spark.

I apologized.

Did you miss that?

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Also. I can be critical of Russia. See here and here, for example.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sparkie,

Explain to us all why Georgia went into “that area”.  Explain to us why Russia opposed Georgia.
Explain to us why Russia bombed the pipeline.
Explain to us why Russia went into Georgia.

You see Spark,

two sides can play the PSYOPS game.  I know you revel in being a shit-stirrer and simply poking Conservatives by writing outrageous things because you really enjoy yanking their chains.

You love being the center of attention, if only being at the center of negative attention.  But your defensive reaction revealed something about the inner you.  There’s a little undercurrent of shame running just below the surface.

Guys, please don’t use this against Sparkie.  Just use your normal insults against the poor guy. Just give him all the attention he needs and he’ll be perfectly happy.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Whatever Putin’s motives are, that action by the Georgian was effing stupid because he gave Putin an in.

So Georgia’s elected leader should not ust the military to establish order and unity that pro-Russian militants were forcefully attemting to thwart simply because Russia might invade?  So much for national soveriegnty.

HG
The whole area was populated by pro-Russian militants and civilians. Did you read about the refugees fleeing? INTO RUSSIA?

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Ok righties, think about this for a second. Say Cuba sent a naval vessel to shell civilians in Puerto Rico, and maybe landed some troops and started destroying villages, you’d all be advocating that Cuba gets pummelled into dust right?

About 90% of South Ossetian civilians have Russian citizenship, so Russia has an obligation to protect them. About a week ago, the Georgian armed forces broke a ceasefire and deliberately targeted South Ossetian civilians, razed their villages, shelled, then invaded, their regional capital, despite Russian peacekeepers being in the region.

Russia has then proceeded to flatten any Georgian military unit it could find.

It’s doesn’t often appear to be a goal of the Russian armed forces to minimise civilian casualties, but this time they actually seem to be trying. So much so that CNN had to pretend that bombed footage of Tskinvali was actually Gori in an attempt to smear the Russians (evil, lying, leftwing MSM).

And so typical of the humanitarian that is Bush, he has only slammed the Russians, not the Georgians. It seems that targeting civilians is ok by Bush.

“Keynes had located the fundamental defect of the free market system in its incapacity to distinguish between `speculation’ and `enterprise.’ Hence, it had a tendency to be dominated by speculators, interested not in the long-term yield on assets but only in the short-term appreciation in asset values. Their whims and caprices, causing sharp swings in asset prices, determined the magnitude of productive investment and, therefore, the level of aggregate demand, employment and output in the economy. The real lives of millions of people were determined by the whims of ‘a bunch of speculators’ under the free market system.”—Prabhat Patnaik

Move_zig

two sides can play the PSYOPS game.

Oh man, Move_zig. You are so right! You’re awesome! You’re the man! THe best! Tell us more about how smart and wonderful you are.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

electnxion- We already know that Georgia and Israel are both US allies, both politically and militarily.  What does your comment add to the discussion other than innuendo that this is some sort of plot by the eeevil joooos and a conspiracy by the joooo controlled media?

Who’s “we?” the American People? Everyone on this blog? Am I to assume everyone is 0 knowledgeable about the current conflict?

Does propaganda exist? Not in the U.S. but only in other countries? Is there such thing as a Memory hole? Does the sun rise in the morning? Why did Condi Rice visit the area prior to the conflict and full U.S. military stocking of the Georgian Armed Forces?

Dogone neocons destroying the world

That’s American to you.  Leftists, on the other hand, are not Americans, but carriers of an imported foreign mental disease.

That being said, the analogy is inapt.

Cuba is a former vassal state of the former Soviet empire.  It has no valid claim to PR.  The Soviets, on the other hand, as I have previously discussed, spent the 70-odd years it had of its past incarnation moving entire peoples and ethnic minorities around the USSR little so much mulch to be picked up, moved, or simply eradicated.

They moved Russians into that region, as they did for so many of the other -stans outside the Russian SSR itself to develop a home-grown Russian cadre in the outlying regions and to dilute the homogeneous nature of those conquered states.

A more apt comparison would be that if Mexican separatists were to attempt to take over (or from their perspective) reclaim California and Texas and the USA were to reassert control over the area THEN (assuming Mexico itself was much larger and more powerful than the USA) attacked Americans who were attacking the Mexican separatists.

Savvy?

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Zig, I realise it wasn’t a 100% apt analogy, but the main point is that the use of state violence against civilians under the protection of another far-stronger state is foolish. (Though I guess the Georgian plan was to have an alliance with America to act as a deterrent, or maybe hoping for some back-up, to slap around Russia some?)

“Keynes had located the fundamental defect of the free market system in its incapacity to distinguish between `speculation’ and `enterprise.’ Hence, it had a tendency to be dominated by speculators, interested not in the long-term yield on assets but only in the short-term appreciation in asset values. Their whims and caprices, causing sharp swings in asset prices, determined the magnitude of productive investment and, therefore, the level of aggregate demand, employment and output in the economy. The real lives of millions of people were determined by the whims of ‘a bunch of speculators’ under the free market system.”—Prabhat Patnaik

AV.  What no comparison with the “palestenians”, as Dennis Miller described:

“Other Arabs Who Can’t Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death.”

See it all here.

Is Georgia an independent country just like Bosnia was when Clinton rushed in to “save” them?

Communism is evil

70,000 people! and a few acres.

And the only gas and crude oil pipeline out of the Caspian Sea area not yet controlled by Mother Russia.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Almost.

If you don’t defend the sanctity of your territory, it will be lost.  Whether you speak of adverse possession by say a load of Gypsies squatting on and staking out a claim on your South 40, or Georgia reasserting its control over Ossetia, or England reasserting control over the Falklands.

Actually, an analogy which is apt is also Serbia and Kosovo.  Kosovo has long been part of Serbia, suffered an influx of Muslim Albanians and when Serbia tried to reassert control from the terrorist KLA / UCK, Clinton’s USA smacked them.

That’s not a welcome analogy for us, but that foul deed was committed by a US-based Leftist, William Jefferson Benedict Arnold Clinton.  And I sense, to no small degree, it is coming back to haunt us.

Getting back to the crisis at hand, I wager that Georgia did expect back-up from the USA, but didn’t expect that it would result in a shooting war with Russian.  Even the foggiest crystal ball would have told them that the USA is loathe to get into a direct shooting war with the Soviets.  That’s something we haven’t done since 1919 (the ill-fated Siberian expedition) but instead have fought them through their and many times, our, proxies.

We are coming quickly to a critical decision-gate.  I dare say, it is something akin to our Seven Days in May (Cuban Missile Crisis)

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

And the only gas and crude oil pipeline out of the Caspian Sea area not yet controlled by Mother Russia.

This is about America!

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Actually, an analogy which is apt is also Serbia and Kosovo.  Kosovo has long been part of Serbia, suffered an influx of Muslim Albanians and when Serbia tried to reassert control from the terrorist KLA / UCK, Clinton’s USA smacked them.

Good analogy Move_Zig. Did you see the Srebrenica video? So, you’re a ‘scorpion’ backer, eh? Those are the orthodox Russians you were just dissing here.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

We are coming quickly to a critical decision-gate.  I dare say, it is something akin to our Seven Days in May (Cuban Missile Crisis)

Any other time in recent history I’d agree, but not right now. Placing our people in Georgia has a good possibility of bringing the “ceasefire” online. Putin & protege have no battle hardened troops, ours are only a few minutes away. A logistical son of a bitch to be sure, but they’re close by. In the event of an incident, Putin & son knows they’ll be writing more condolence letters to families than G.W. will. The only question is, is how stupid is Putin? I doubt he’s that stupid, that’d place him amongst the short bus window lickers along with RBB, spanky arbuckle, e, etc…

At least when George Bush was reading My Pet Goat, he genuinely had no idea Manhattan was being terrorized. And it wasn’t by his own plane.

Sparkless (Clueless)

Neiman, spare me the bullshit. You are one of the most self-centered people on this whole blog.

I agree, I am not the most selfless person in the world, I have made very few; but I have made some small sacrifices for my country, my community, for people at risk of losing their lives and I played a small role in innumerable people being rescued, either directly or through medcical product improvements. But, just to set my selfish record straight regarding my self-centeredness; this is fyi, for you only, for future reference:

> U.S. Marine Corps - Vietnam, only minor injuries.
> Police Officer immediately after the Corps, injured taking down suspect alone with a butcher knife in his hand as he was coming down a narrow staircase.
> One of the first EMT’s in this country, almost lost my life twice.
> Head of Emergency Rescue Service, kidnapped at gunpoint once; almost killed during a rescue, in a coma for several days, over 150 cuts to my face, a broken bone or two.
> Cobalt Irradiation technician for experiments with Stanford Research Institute, which exposed me to high levels of radiation, the goal being to determine safe levels of cobalt irradiation experimenting on sheep.
> Registered Respiratory Therapist.
> Physician’s Assistant.
> Emergency Medical Research Manager for several large medical corporations, helping invent-improve several life saving devices.
> Now working with Special Needs Children in semi-retirement.
> Gave my son over three years ago.

I am a selfish, egotistical, self-serving bastard! Okay Sparkie? Now where do we go?

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Oh man, Move_zig. You are so right! You’re awesome! You’re the man! THe best! Tell us more about how smart and wonderful you are.

He served in the Corps, that is recommendation enough for me! Plus, he quite frequently offers rational, cogent, intelligent and insightful comments on many issues. Not bad!

Whatever Putin’s motives are, that action by the Georgian was effing stupid because he gave Putin an in.

Putin never needed an excuse, he was always a hard line, current KGB officer and he waited until now to reassert Russian dominance on his way to rebuilding the Soviet Union.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Move_Zig: I won’t tell you why, it is not important, but I think we both may have misread Sparkies character and we should stick more to fighting him on the issues in the future, which quite frankly I enjoy, and be less judgmental.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

It was the Georgians that committed the act of war.

  If the Russians attack communities that have a presence of US troops it’s basically an act of war.

Think the Georgians are above killing Americans to guarantee American support for the obvious lost campaign of illegal aggression they initiated?

But the Georgian gave him an in.

Stupid.

Piss poor place to build that pipeline.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Think the Georgians are above killing Americans to guarantee American support for the obvious lost campaign of illegal aggression they initiated?

The leader was educated at Harvard back in the day on how to manipulate International Relations… er… I mean ‘Law’. Yea, law.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Zig, I realise it wasn’t a 100% apt analogy, but the main point is that the use of state violence against civilians under the protection of another far-stronger state is foolish. (Though I guess the Georgian plan was to have an alliance with America to act as a deterrent, or maybe hoping for some back-up, to slap around Russia some?)

You said this in another thread too. There have indeed been some Georgian indiscretions, the burning of the village for one. But when I correctly pointed out that hostilities have gone both ways, you quietly let the point drop.

No one denies that South Ossetia shelled Georgian villages as well. But hell, what difference does that make? That those attacks were used as a justification for the initial imvasion apparently is irrelevant. I guess if you’re trying to paint the Ossetians as the victims it doesn’t help that they are accused of, and very may well have, fired first.

Seeing that Georgia seems to have primarily targetted the Ossetian military, and that, even now, Russians have been attacking and occupying villages after a peace agreement, does indeed seem to say the Georgians are the good guys, and the Russians are the bad guys.

And as a preemptive strike, just in case you have the temerity to claim I never answered your questions…I did indeed in a private message sent after the threas was no longer front page.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

I have been to Serbia and do have friends there.

Have you?

My guess is that you are taking so-called Western Journalism at face value.  By that measure, the Texas Air National Guard memos would have been taken as true, as would be the fictitious massacre at No Gun Ri, or Tailwind or exploding side-saddle gas tanks and so on and so on.

We have learned that the Leftist MSM has an agenda.  We know that they have covered Clinton’s mistakes, f-ups and treasons, his high crimes and misdemeanors.  The Leftist Izvestia-like coverage over the tragic fighting in the Balkans, which as deep roots and is immersed in blood on all sides, is just as skewed as the widely-publicized propaganda spewed by them before, but this time, largely unchallenged.

For the average American—and by average American I am including journalists and members of Congress, the simplest explanation for their Serbo-phobia is ignorance, pure, unselfconscious, unapologetic ignorance of everything that has ever happened anywhere in the world. Ignorance of the Balkans, ignorance of the Middle East, ignorance even of Western Europe. Americans are very easy to manipulate, because they simply do not know anything about the rest of the world. Since they know no foreign languages, they have no access to what is being said, for example, in France. Americans are generally suspicious of the opinions promoted by the liberal media, but it never enters into their minds to suspect that even the facts purveyed by Dan Rather and Tom Brokaw are as bogus as their opinions.

What mystifies me is how Clinton would side with Muslim terrorists against the lone Christian bulwark against Islamic extremism in Southeastern Europe.

Bin Laden in the Balkans

FROM ‘THE DAILY OKLAHOMAN,’ May 28, 1999

”...As U.S. Sen. Jim Inhofe long has predicted, American troops go into Kosovo against the Serbs, they’ll be fighting alongside a terrorist organization known to finance its operations with drug sales - including some to the United States.

“By joining hands with the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), which intelligence sources say bankrolls itself by selling heroin and cocaine, the United States also would become partners of a sort with Osama bin Laden, the international terrorist behind last year’s bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, the Washington Times reports. According to the newspaper’s sources, the KLA is linked to an extensive organized crime network headquartered in Albania. In 1998 the State Department listed the KLA as an international terrorist organization that supported itself with drug profits and through loans from known terrorists like bin Laden.

“Such an ally is the result of Bill Clinton choosing sides in a centuries-old civil war. “They were terrorists in 1998 and now, because of politics, they’re freedom fighters,” a top drug official told the Times.

“In Bill Clinton’s war, where bombing has been turned into a humanitarian application, such a paradox fits right in.

and

In 1999, the newspaper, ‘Dani,’ announced that bin Laden had been issued a Special Passport from the Washington-Backed Bosnian Government in 1993. Two weeks ago, the Bosnian government issued a denial. Given that this denial took two years and came immediately after September 11th, we suggest it be taken with a grain of salt.

“BIN LADEN WAS GRANTED BOSNIAN PASSPORT

“Agence France Presse September 24, 1999

“SARAJEVO

“Osama bin Laden, the Saudi billionaire wanted by the United States for organising bloody terrorist attacks, was granted a Bosnian passport in 1993 by the country’s [i.e., Bosnia]embassy in Vienna, an independent weekly reported Friday.

and

Bin Laden, Iran, and the KLA

oh yes,  Thanks Nieman.

Semper Fi!

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Quick question…

Who is running things, Medveded (the new russian prez) or Putin, who is suppose to no longer be leading?

‘A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.’  - Thomas Jefferson.

Move_Zig:  Clinton sent nearly 50,000 US troops to the Balkans, bombed the hell out of our only true ally, Serbia, and did everything he could to placate - kiss the butts - of Kosovite Muslims.

NO ONE in our main-stream media batted an eyelash at this outrageous act.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Personally I get the feeling the US is being played a bit here…

The first US air force transport aircraft arrived last night, and the navy was heading to the Black Sea – which is controlled by Russian warships – to deliver humanitarian and medical supplies direct to Georgian ports. “We expect Russia to honour its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance,” Mr Bush said.

President Saakashvili of Georgia seized on the announcement to say that Tbilisi airport and Poti port would be placed under US military control, a claim the Pentagon swiftly denied.

Link

Is President Saakashvili of Georgia just trying to save his ass, by saying the US will be in charge of these areas so as not to be attacked?

Or are we being played?

‘A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.’  - Thomas Jefferson.

My guess is that Putin still runs the entire show.  He picked a sock-puppet successor to lend the aura of Russia being a democracy, but the carefully-appointed successor doesn’t dare so much as fart without Putin’s say-so.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

And yes, PP, that is my point exactly.

The odd point about this was that when I went to Belgrade, the Serbs were polite and kind to me, even as we stood in the shadow of the burned-out hulks of buildings American F-117’s took out.  They have been fighting the Muslim invader since the Crusades.  While the Frankish knights had to troop down to Jerusalem to engage the Turkoman or Saracen, the Serbs were in a constant battle with them, and at times under the heavy boot of their occupation, as was Southern Spain.

It was their fighting, forgotten here in the West, that saved Christian civilization from Islamic conquest.

The victory stopped the Ottoman Turkish advance towards Catholic Europe for 70 years, though they made other incursions such as the taking of Otranto in 1480-1481 and the raid of Croatia and Styria in 1493. Belgrade would continue to protect Hungary from Turkish attacks until the fort fell to the Ottomans in 1521.

During the siege, Pope Callixtus III ordered the noon bell, to call believers to pray for the defenders - but as in many places the news of victory arrived earlier than the order, it transformed into the commemoration of the victory, and the Pope modified his the order to fit this interpretation. Hence the noon bell is still rung to this day for the memory of Hunyadi’s victory.

After the Siege of Belgrade stopped the advance of Mehmed II towards Central Europe, Serbia and Bosnia were absorbed into the Empire. Wallachia, the Tartar Khanate of Crimea, and eventually Moldavia were merely converted into vassal states thanks to strong military resistance to Mehmed’s attempts at conquest. There were several reasons why the sultan did not directly attack Hungary and why he gave up the idea of advancing in that direction after his unsuccessful siege of Belgrade. The mishap at Belgrade indicated that the Empire could not expand further until Serbia and Bosnia were transformed into a secure base of operations

They don’t teach this history in American schools.  For that matter they don’t teach much American history in American schools, but it is this ignorance of history that gave Clinton and his Leftist regime cover for destroying a lo9ng time ally and siding with those who have been attacking us, up to and including the attack on the World Trade Center.

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

Ziggy says:

It’s a centrally-held belief of mine that a citizen ought to, at some point and in some manner, serve his country.

I served as a table cleaner without pay in a school cafeteria. I also collected garbage free of charge in our small town.

Sparkie: Understand this:

Sending troops to Georgia was the right thing to do because Bush did it.

It would have been the wrong thing to do if Obama had done it.

You get it?

Impressive curriculum vitae, Neiman.

It is very interesting what Sparkie is saying about what the Georgians really are after. Also what ‘zig’ mentions that he THINKS that Putin is still in charge. Very interesting.
As I have spent much time in both Russia, and Georgia, and have family in both countries may I offer a small mention of what the people of each country know, and want.
1st..Putin is indeed still in control of Russia! Just before he yielded the office of the Presidency he transferred almost of the powers of that office to his new office of Minister. the current President, and any subsequent President are/will be mere figureheads. The citizens of Russia know that Putin still ‘rules’ Russia and they are, for the most part, happy about that. They WANT to reconstitute the old Soviet Empire. They want their old world status back and are quite willing to undergo almost any difficulty/hardship to attain this. OK now Georgia. The people of Georgia want to have freedom such as ours. They have tasted a measure of this since being freed from Soviet rule, and do not want to go back to the old status as a part of Russia giving up their freedoms. In the renegade region of South Ossetia where the fighting began, the Russians previously issued passports, and defacto citizenship trying to bring this region back into the Russian sphere of influence. Then by arranging for a pro Russian “President” there they could force Georgia to give up that part of Georgia,and eventually take Georgia piece by piece. However when Georgia did not meekly go on with this and tried to reclaim authority over Ossetia the Russians used “fake” Russian citizens (there are in fact a many true Russian citizens there but they were not in the majority, and did not represent the overall desires of the Georgian people) as an excuse to invade Georgia to “protect the Russian people. It is interesting that the actual Russian citizens there preferred to live outside of Russia vs in Russia. 
Add to this the fact that Russia is trying to consoladate its power/control /ownership over all the oilresources, and shipment facilities in Eastern Europe and one has a very strong receipe for conflict.

Well this is a broad brush of my experience of what is going on over there. Yes there are many more facets of the ongoing conflict but I only wanted to mention just a few of them.

Interesting LB!

Saddening to have these negative suspicions confirmed, nonetheless.

I would be very interested in hearing more area analyses and on-the-ground reports from that region.

Question: do you think Putin is intent enough on taking Georgia that he would risk an armed clash with Americans who may be deployed there?

...for great justice

Whether they are defending the Soviet Union or bleating for Saddam Hussein, liberals are always against America. They are either traitors or idiots, and on the matter of America’s self-preservation, the difference is irrelevant.” —Ann Coulter, P. 16

http://i44.tinypic.com/t89p3s.jpg[/IMG]”]

AMERICANS FOR TRUTH

NO PRIDE. LV

MASS RESISTANCE

THE PINK SWASTIKA

L. Burdette,

Thank you so much for your insights.  They are indeed instructive.

I’m personally convinced that Putin, who may secretly be one of the richest men in the world (Gazprom), is clearly trying to put the old Soviet empire back together again, piece by piece.  It is no accident that his hand-picked successor as President, Mr. Medvedev, was formally head of Gazprom.

After Georgia, and the pipeline from the Caspian, the most important target is Ukraine.

Those on the Left in the US don’t have much regard for individual liberty.  Freedom and Democracy are merely convenient cliches to most of them.  And if their own freedoms aren’t all that significant in the face of all that they believe government can do for them, then the freedom of others is of very little consequence.  Andrei Sakharov was hero as long as he was a prisoner of the Soviet state.  But once he was finally released and emigrated to Israel he become little more than a shrill nuisance to the liberal Left.

The people of Georgia, and Ukraine are in much danger of losing their freedom.  You may expect little in the way of help from America’s Democrats.

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Not Russia envades to Georgia, but Georgia envades to Osetia. Also they wanted to destroy Abhasia. I have not seen any Georgian destroyed towns. Where they are? Where are the victims of our (Russian) agression. But I saw destroyed Osetia, killed women, kids, old men, our soldiers. Georgia is animal. People, who didnot die because of Georgia agression - is alive and they saw everything. American government avoids it. It is not democracy. We save Osetia from Georgian agression. I saw the militari plan on the map, where Georgia wanted to destroy not only Osetia, but Abhasia too. Georgia kills peoples by its own country, only for they want to be independent from Georgia. Only Russia help to Osetia. I saw by TW a version that it is information war. Every country has its own information. I cant beleif that every country is against us. But I am ready to the war.

Aprio,

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of horsecrap all around.

Ossetian seperatists have been attacking Georgia for years. This latest round of violence is due to a shelling of a Georgian village by Ossetians. Then Russia used that as a cause to move in and drove tanks all through Georgia. The reality is far different than the fantasy you peddle, bad english and all.

It’s all political bullshit. Liberals (and Robert108) lie and spin and twist and obscure and distract and cheat to protect their guys and hurt the opposing team. It’s like wrestling. They distract the ref while their team mate hits you with a chair. There’s no rule they won’t break, no law they won’t skirt, no crime they won’t forgive as long as they can win.

Yeah Aprio, you heard Kenny

Aprio,

I’m sorry, but that’s a load of horsecrap all around.

You may be surprised that people like Ken know more than you about your country, your feelings and the situation on the ground.
But that’s how it works around here.

Well, that’s a bit fucking different than democracy now isn’t it? What rhetorical device are you guys employing here?

I’m using a rhetorical device called “quote-the-idiot-words-of-the-idiot-you’re-debating” - heard of it?  Though admittedly, I did use it a tad incorrectly, since the idiot/idiot device requires one to recall that the even the idiot they’re quoting often won’t won’t remember all of the idiot words he used.  Allow me to correct my error.  Here’s the entire passage:

70,000 people! and a few acres. that’s what we’re talking about here. he did not ‘take georgia’. now its the whole of the steppes, all the former Russian states, Europe is at risk! give me a break.

You see, dear idiot, you were trying to imply that since Putin/Medvedev didn’t invade the entire country (though it seems that that assertion may not be entirely correct any more, since cities nowhere near South Ossetia have now been bombed and/or entered, but I digress), that it wasn’t such a big deal (yes, I recognize that you were hyperbolizing on the hyperbole of another commenter, but the “70,000 people and a few acres” portion was entirely of your concoction - hmm, wonder if that was why it was the portion I cited in the first place?).

And I recognize that anytime anyone mentions war and oil in the same sentence, idiot lefties like you will get all alather, but what you, Madam Pelosi, and the rest of the Democratic party don’t seem to comprehend is that economic self-determination is a vital element of democracy (read Adam Smith if you don’t grasp this yet).  And whether the beholden-to-the-environmental-extremists Democratic Party appreciates it or not, oil imports from an extremely unstable geopolitical region play a significant role in the economies of the entire world (not just the democratic ones).  So, yes, when a tyrannical aggressor threatens to disrupt world oil supplies (and thus world economic conditions - still with me?), it has everything to do with democracy (sorry, I forgot your idiot status for a moment again: recall that economic self-determination is a vital component of political freedom, and political freedom is best personified in a democratic society).

Make sense now?

MOVEZIG

I have been to Serbia and do have friends there.

That’s great. No, I have never been to Serbia. Croatia and Slovenia are the closest I’ve been to Serbia. Yes, I know it was a Christian vs. Muslim conflict. Yes, I know that there were many, many foreign Arabs and others there, fighting and terrorizing with the Muslim Kosovars. You know where they came from? The conflict with Russia. You know where they got their guns? Reagan. You selectively describe the situation and leave out the fact that Reagan armed all the marauding, beheading nutcases until ‘88. A few short years later, they were in Serbia, shooting the place up. But your revisionist angle is anti-Clinton and you ‘hit all the right notes’.

That said, I do not PICK A SIDE. Both sides were engaged in ethnic cleansing. I am sympathetic to all sides of this conflict. The Christians in this situation were taken advantage of by Milosevic. You should be wary of who’s side you pick merely on religion or who your friends are. Milosevic is a hatemonger and a petty political entrepreneur, just like any of them. He rallied his side by giving speeches about past injustices from 300 years back. Historical vitriol, just like you see from Hitler or Stalin. To single the Kosovars out as Muslim dope smugglers is only half the story. You are a propagandist, just like the rest of them. Neither side was right. Both sides engaged in ethnic cleansing. This recent, “Serbia was innocent” push among the right wing bloggers is sick and disingenuous. You guys can push for all the revisionist history you want, but it doesn’t mean there aren’t people out there who watch the news, who read books, etc. Milosevic was a hate-monger, ethnic cleanser, and propagandist in the mold of Hitler and Stalin, but on a smaller scale. The content of his speeches and the nerves he sought to strike in his population lay that bare for anyone who is interested to see it. If you put your fingers in your ears and yell lalallalalala or take one side’s story at face value… that’s your own problem.

You, however, cannot single out just the Kosovars and bitch about them. That is foolish. Sometimes there is not a ‘right’ and a ‘wrong’ side. The rich supply of vitriol that is strewn throughout the history of those regions, having been fought for back and forth between the Christians and the Muslims over the ages, is immense. If you think people like Milosevic are perfectly warranted in picking 300 year old scabs to rally the masses and consolidate their own control, that’s pathetic. You can give your selective snippets, but I ain’t buying what you’re selling. Both sides are guilty. I linked the Srebrenica video above. Check it out. Look at your side in action, shooting unarmed teens. Those aren’t foreign arab fighters either, they are locals, or as local as you get in the balkans/cacauses.

You make it oversimple and deride people who don’t agree with you. You selectively assassinate certain information and practice revisionism. Just like Milosevic. No wonder you’re a fan. Maybe someday you can get a gig giving Christian nationalist speeches to inspire hatred, you’re cut out for it.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

sonofasillyperson
We, and Europe, get a ton of oil and natural gas from Russia who you describe as a “a tyrannical aggressor”. Its not like Russian controlled oil doesn’t get into our hands. Ever been to New Jersey? THe only gas stations they have are ‘lukoil’. Gimme a break. Maybe we shouldn’t get oil from russia, as you seem to imply, but that would have a big effect on the global economy.

You call me an “idiot lefty”. Did you catch the part about states rights? Did you catch the part about Lincoln above? I guarantee that, whatever I am, you cannot sum it up with “idiot lefty”.

About the 70,000 people. That’s the approximate pop of s. Ossetia. You assume that Georgia is free from implication in this despite the fact that we know they began the conflict by forcibly trying to bring that region back under their thumb. Let’s think about the locals. Do you really think they want to be part of greater Russia? No. They are just very small and have limited devices available to assert themselves. They have a history wherein they have fought Russia when ruled by them (1920) and Georgia when ruled by them (1992, 2006). They want to be independent. They have no other devices except trying to play both sides against the middle. I guarantee that, if they were part of Russia, and Russia was acting preponderate or exploitative, they would push in the other direction. These are mountain folk. They don’t want to answer to some suit and tie in a big city in either country. They are playing both sides against the middle and we are all caught up in the traditional, Rambo style, good guy bad guy dichotomy. I’m not buying it for a minute. We are suckers. This Georgian leader has baited us very effectively, however much more reprisal from Russia he got than he expected.

You can keep railing on your cold war dichotomies all you want, but it distracts from potentially useful dialogs.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Neiman, you say:

Want to bet Obama, Pelosi and Reid don’t agree?

Darn it. I was just about to bet you a nickel.

Here’s what Pelosi said:

“Russian military action in Georgia should be recognized for what it is – an effort to intimidate Georgia’s freely-elected government and the governments of other democratic states on Russia’s borders as well,” said Pelosi.  “It must be made clear to Russian leaders that this kind of conduct is unacceptable.”

Actually, that was a retroactive bet. You owe me a nickel.

If you think people like Milosevic are perfectly warranted in picking 300 year old scabs to rally the masses and consolidate their own control, that’s pathetic.

Hmm… sounds like a couple ethnic groups in the US, huh?

Sorry I got off track there ...back to the Georgia/Russia subject

There seems to be some confusion in this thread. It appears that many commentators have been blindly accepting the reporting of the skewed MSM, rather than reading between the lines after getting news from several sources with differing political affiliations.
  Some people seem to think that the Baku-Tblisi-Ceynan pipeline passes through South Ossetia (S.O), whereas if anyone were to look at a map of the region, they would see that neither of the pipelines that pass through Georgian territorial borders pass through S.O. News reports of the Russians bombing this pipeline are unreliable, coming from the Georgian government who have consistently lied as to their motives and actions, often it would appear, in order to garner Western assistance in their own ends. Indeed the bombing by the Russian Air Force appears to have been targeted at everything but it -

Russia targets oil pipeline with over 50 missiles - I’m sorry, but if the Russians had fired over fifty missiles at an oil pipeline, how were they unable to damage it? Are they using rubber missiles now? Wouldn’t the pipeline’s operators know something  about it?

Explain to us all why Georgia went into “that area”.

BBC

The tensions between Georgia and Russia have been longstanding and extend back to the early 90s, when both Abkhazia and S.O gained protected status following a vicious inter-ethnic conflagration with Georgia, wherein all sides

carried out ethnic cleansing, mass killings and wanton destruction of property.

Indeed, in this report from April this year, the BBC reported that

Russia has warned it will retaliate if Georgia uses force against its breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

The Georgians new what would happen if they carried out this attack, but they did it anyway.

It could be that they wanted a US presence in their country, as a buffer against the Russian forces acting as peacekeepers in Abkhazia and S.O., but they surely couldn’t have believed that the Russians wouldn’t stick their word.

Explain to us why Russia opposed Georgia.

As the above report shows, the Russians opposed Georgian aggression in these regions since they gained semi-autonomy in the nineties. They appear to be performing a similar role to that performed by NATO in the former Yugoslavia.

Explain to us why Russia bombed the pipeline.

They didn’t. Get a clue.

Explain to us why Russia went into Georgia.

Georgia were getting too big for their boots and needed to be shown this, even if they are a NATO ally. Russian troops dismantled the Georgian military infrastructure in the areas surrounding S.Ossetia and Abkazia, to make it difficult for the Georgians to regroup and launch reprisal attacks against them.

No doubt the Russians have aspirations for regional dominance, but they are not going to achieve this by protecting two small ethnic groups from one larger one.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

MOFO (Good to see your back!)
Wow, can you just tell us what religions are involved and give us a good guy v. bad guy dichotomy to work with here. I think some of the ‘PSYOPS’ experts might need a little help comprehending this ambiguous presentation you have provided.
/sarcasm

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sorry
That should read…
“(Good to see you’re back!)”

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Also, as I have said previously, my post on Balance of Power as the primary device propping up the international state system has many relevant points. What we are seeing is the manner in which our lifestyles fund our opposition. Look at who gets a lot of our money… Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Former Russian States, etc. Even Burma through illicit means. All these places are hostile to Democracy, our way of life, etc. We parade around the world, touting Democracy, but we essentially fund the resistance through our habits. Moreover, when one country shirks international law and diplomacy, and they are a preponderant superpower… as we have done… one will see bizarre alliances being formed in opposition to this, merely in an effort to preserve some ounce of sovereignty in a situation where neither international law or diplomacy can do so. The enemies of America love the manner in which we protect our supply lines. They sit on those supply lines, cash in, team up, and fuck with us.
Frankly, I don’t blame them. When we don’t consent to certain international protocols which reinforce the state system, bizarre things happen in reaction to that. If we want to be able to police, or sort things out, in a legitimate manner that will not lead to backlash… it needs to be done with International Law, Diplomacy, AND sometimes force. It cannot be done with force alone.

You think I’m full of shit? Read this post.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Thanks Sparkie, glad you like my back (I’ll have to make sure I don’t drop the soap).

Most people in Georgia. including the disputed regions, are Orthodox Christians. In Abkhazia, Christians make up 80% of the population, with Muslims making up the remainder. In S. Ossetia it is more like 50/50, with 30% of them being ethnic Georgians.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

MOFO
The geography lesson on the location of the pipeline was especially relevant, wouldn’t you say?
Now the question for HG, M_Z, sonofa, etc. is… WHICH RHETORICAL DEVISE ARE YOU GOING WITH? Democracy? Pipelines? Cold war intuitions? What binary schema would you prefer we construe this through?

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

WHICH RHETORICAL DEVISE ARE YOU GOING WITH? Democracy? Pipelines? Cold war intuitions? What binary schema would you prefer we construe this through?

Sparkie,

Sarcasm aside, why is this an “either/or” question?

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

These “righties” seem to get hung up on the semantics of an argument as soon as they start to think they are on the ropes.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Bat
It need not be. If you guys didn’t back Georgia out of the starting gate, blindly, on intuitions derived from yesteryear, I wouldn’t chide you for oversimplifying.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

These “righties” seem to get hung up on the semantics of an argument as soon as they start to think they are on the ropes.

On the contrary, it seems more likely that those of you on the Left are the ones having difficulty with more complex, and dare I say it, more nuanced thoughts, and apparently operate best at the most simplistic level imaginable.

As for semantics, that is a complaint I would expect from a liberal.  Words mean things, and are endowed by the society that uses them with deliberately specific meanings.  It is those of you who seek who seek obfuscation over clarity and equivocation and “wiggle room” over definitive judgment that most often hide behind complaints such as this.

Besides, I don’t see where you’ve back anyone up against “the ropes.”

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

If you guys didn’t back Georgia out of the starting gate, blindly, on intuitions derived from yesteryear, I wouldn’t chide you for oversimplifying.

Ah, yes!  I see.  The old “if only you weren’t wrong, then we’d be in agreement” argument.  That one goes back well beyond those “institutions of yesteryear.”

Nice phrasing, though!

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

they start to think they are on the ropes

their arguments have been neutered by those ropes. still, they’ll just post another thread, ignore all this and continue to buy into propaganda from their preordained ally. its their MO. they don’t care for reality, only what sells, what consolidates opinion. for conservatives, they tend towards mono-culture in a pathetically revealing manner. the sheep analogy is apt. if one sheep gets out, you gotta let out a few more to get it back. they freak out on their own, they have no ability to maneuver on their own. it must be a collective effort. and yet they purport to support individuality, local control, and so on. and when I chide them for it, they act abhorred at the suggestion. they follow beaten paths, they need a routine that others partake in.

bat is so offended, but he was invoking “Mother Russia” and the location of the pipeline above. yawn.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Words mean things, and are endowed by the society that uses them with deliberately specific meanings.

Oh yea, clue us in on the etymology of “Mother Russia”.

Why do you argue with false facts if you are so right? Did you research that or just take it from the feetbucket? Go rail on the MSM some more. Get some more ‘TarTar’ for your FISHSTICKS.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Offended???  By what?  I’m quite accustomed to the mental myopia of those on the Left by now.

I am intrigued by your knowledge of sheep, however.  Why, if I didn’t know you’re married…

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”

Bat

Besides, I don’t see where you’ve back anyone up against “the ropes.”

I think I have done a fairly good job answering all the points herein. MOFO has provided me with some ‘air support’... and I’m ready to go home and call in the blue helmets to stand around and supervise you kids to make sure you don’t hurt anyone.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Understanding of the nuances of political instability in the region is beyond many it seems, which is interesting because all it takes is a bit of reading from various (and conflicting) sources to establish a decent overall perspective.

Making blanket statements like “It seems that all lefties are intellectually challenged” - I know you didn’t say that precisely, Bat, but that is the gist of it - is as false as my statement that suggested that all righties will resort to a win at any cost strategy when they perceive defeat.

It’s just like the schoolyard -

I know you are, you said you are, so what am I?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Bat
When all else fails, insinuate the opposition are sheep fuckers. Classy! So we should blindly support Georgia because you have been able to insinuate that I am a sheep fucker?

That’s what you call “on the ropes”.

For truth is named after the daughter of time, not of authority.

-Francis Bacon

Sparkie,

My apologies for the sheep comment since you seem to be offended.  I assumed you had more of a sense of humor, even to the point of self-deprecation.  My bad!

“Capitalism is optimism monetized.”