Now how was I disrespectful? Tell everyone exactly how I was disrespectful, the actual words I used to disrespect you. You cannot find one word or even a hint of self righteousness in anything I said, in fact IF you were honest, you would clearly read a declaration of exactly the opposite by me. You cannot find any place where I insisted anyone should agree with me or honor Murtha’s military service. You cannot find one whining word of any kind!

In other words, all your charges above are false, a tissue of lies!

Even after in my first comment, get that – my very first comment below, I admitted Murtha was a terrible person after the military and I only promoted the idea that it was wrong to paint him all one thing out of conservative, partisan hatred. Like JimmyPop, I would loved to have seen him defeated at the ballot box and out of Congress, but not be joyful that he is dead and try to use that occasion to piss on his grave, a grave that will note his honorable, valorous military service.

Lastly, it is gross, hate filled, conservative INTOLERANCE at play here; a series of personal attacks because I would not join you and others in pissing on this man’s grave.

It should not be forgotten that Jack Murtha was the one who otld Bill Clinton that the only way congressional Democrats would allow US intervention in Kosovo, would be if he withdrew US forces from their deployment in Somalia, a humanitarian mission first undertaken by President George H. W. Bush several years before.

Clinton quickly withdrew US forces from Somalia, a fact of which Murtha bragged loudly on TV, and that withdrawal precipitated the infamous “Blackhawk Down” incidentAs remaining US forces were pinned with no relief, and no heavy firepower to back them up.

Of course, that shameful incident also caught the attention of Osama bin Laden, who mentioned it in his interview with ABC’s Frontline correspondent, John Miller. Bin Laden noted that al Qaeda was encouraged to plan further attacks against the US after seeing just how little stomach the Americans had for resistance in Somalia, an encounter which he labeled a great victory.

Among those further attacks, of course, was 9-11-01.

As a congressman and Democrat leader, John Murtha was a disgrace to the uniform he once honored with his valor.

Thank you! I never wanted to say as a Congressman I liked him. As a former serving Marine I hated what he did about Haditha, as a Christian I hated his support of abortion, I just feel that since he died, a little charity remembering his service and that he was probably loved by his family, so that it is not all, a total dump on the guy!

Despite what you say about his role in Congress being all too true, please do not forget that when he was in his right mind – he honorably served this nation in time of war and with valor:

As a youth, he became an Eagle Scout. He also worked delivering newspapers and at a gas station before graduating from The Kiski School, an all-male boarding school in Saltsburg, Pennsylvania.

Murtha left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marine Corps and was awarded the American Spirit Honor Medal for displaying outstanding leadership qualities during training. Murtha became a drill instructor at Parris Island and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia. Murtha was then assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.

Murtha left the Marines in 1955. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for service in the Vietnam War, serving from 1966 to 1967, serving as a battalion staff officer (S-2 Intelligence Section), receiving the Bronze Star with Valor device, two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. He retired from the Marine Corps Reserve as a Colonel in 1990, receiving the Navy Distinguished Service Medal.

He volunteered for Vietnam and deserved all the medals he was awarded.

Sadly, Abscam:

The FBI videotaped Murtha responding to an offer of $50,000, with Murtha saying, “I’m not interested… at this point. [If] we do business for a while, maybe I’ll be interested, maybe I won’t”, right after Murtha had offered to provide names of businesses and banks in his district where money could be invested legally.[5] The U.S. Attorneys Office reasoned that Murtha’s intent was to obtain investment in his district. Full length viewing of the tape shows Murtha citing prospective investment opportunities that could return “500 or 1000″ miners to work.

By all accounts, Murtha’s service in Vietnam was honorable.

Today, however, the US House of Representatives and the Democrat Party are marginally less corrupt without him.

So, because I disagree, you, Onslaught and others just want me to go away. You are all very charitable and tolerant of opposing views, aren’t you? I forgot that conservatism so often is thus mean spirited and intolerant of any opposition whatsoever. I will tear my clothes and sit around this evening in ashes and sackcloth to repent of my horrible sins against you conservatives.

Goon48: Considering my Marine service, that of the many Marines in my family, two serving today in other branches and my family’s long military service record, I think I have earned the right to extend my appreciation for his military service, despite his many other faults. If you do not choose to extend that right to me, you can join Graves and Onslaught in inviting me to shut up and leave!

Yes, never nice to dance on a man’s grave, but in this case the guy was everything that is wrong with congress and we are better off without him.

Yeah, and Hitler loved dogs, too.
Good riddance.
There’s a special ring in hell for Murtha’s ilk and the devil will get his due.

Murtha also, besmirched the Hiditha Marine’s good name and never said he was sorry. That I can not forgive.

Пёс ёб твою мать

Really? I can’t find one word of whining? Oh please Neiman, I can read. [No you apparently cannot!]

My words: “Thank you your holiness for your second series of self-righteous attacks and condemnation of me. I am thoroughly rebuked and rightly put in my lowly, ignorant, sinful, God condemned place. I pay you my most humble obeisance for having offended your certain moral and intellectual superiority over myself and most other human beings. You have my permission to place me in any classification that suits you and further supports your omniscient self-image.”

Why is that whining? Have you ever heard of sarcasm? [Sarcasm is the rhetorical device, using a characterization of something or someone in order to express contempt for a person or idea.] I guess not! Even if it was not sarcasm, there was nothing whining about calling him god! He should feel complimented to be elevated to deity status!

. And then there was this gem.

My words: “I am glad the people at SAB will not be my judge on Judgment Day, with a few exceptions they seem to be without any mercy or compassion.”

So excuse me, polite and respectful? What a crock of horse$hit. This final part alone shows that you can’t civilly disagree on this:

How is it uncivil to suggest, based on your harsh judgments of Murtha herein, without your being able to even give him his due for his military service, disrespectful? It is my honest assessment of the wholly unforgiving nature of your comments about Murtha. It has nothing to do with respect or lack thereof, it is a simple statement of my beliefs that you seem harsh and absent all mercy, and thus to suggest that I am glad you will not be my judge to be able to use that measure of unmerciful judgment against me.

My words: “Lastly, it is gross, hate filled, conservative INTOLERANCE at play here; a series of personal attacks because I would not join you and others in pissing on this man’s grave.”

No Neiman, what it is is that you’re being a pathetic whiny child that people have the temerity to disagree with you. I expressed disagreement on Murtha. NO personal attacks. NO insults. NO rudeness. Simple to the point. Your “respectful” counter was to hope that, unlike Suite and I, people will remember YOU did good. So you hope people will think us to be garbage after we die? That’s charity? That’s good will? The hell it is.

You took what I said totally out of context for reasons of personal malice. I actually said, “I have been no saint and when I die, unlike SuitePotato and possibly you, I hope people will not forget that I was not all bad, not all one thing; but at times I made a positive contribution to family, friends and my country, otherwise, like Murtha, I fear I will not fare very well in my obituary.”

The connection was that unlike you two that I am sure are both all good, at least in your own minds; I know that I am not thus all good and I hope that people will measure my good along with my bad and not paint me as being all bad as is being done to Murtha. I said you two, apparently by your words, were not ever bad like I have been in my life and so while you would not need it, I hoped for more charity by those remembering me than you would need because of your perfect goodness (sarcasm).

I’m not happy Murtha is dead, but I’m not sad either. I’ll not dance or piss on his grave as you so disrespectfully claim. No is my opposition to him based on “partisan conservative hatred” as I’m not a conservative. It’s based off of him facilitating the murder of babies, the betraying of people who are supposed to be his brothers (fellow marines), and being a corrupt politician.

You apparently do not understand that when speaking of the dead, it is unseemly to only speak ill of them, it is charity and mercy to try and credit them with some good in life and I read not one word by you that gave him any credit for his honorable and valorous military service, only hate filled condemnation. While I have along with noting his military service as being good, also condemned the bad “things” he has done.

So spare me, Neiman. You’re being a prick and demanding that we thank you for being such a generous prick at the same time. For a supposed Christian, you really need to work on the “love thy neighbor” thing.

Herein, I have tried here against much opposition and even your hatred for Murtha and me, to appeal to the better angels of our natures; and while not covering over his many, grievous faults, in Christ’s love I have tried to speak for some mercy towards him, some kindness for a dead man that was not an ALL bad human being. You attack him only and speak evil of him, while I plead for some mercy; and yet in your mind I don’t love my neighbor and you do? In what kind of upside down world do you live?

Also, when did I demand anyone agree with me or thank me for anything?

I know you are angry, unjustifiably so IMO, it is hard when people without rancor even, disagree with you and will not stand silent when falsely accused. Whenever under any post I have opposed your stated position, you always engage in rage, as your feelings are hurt, your perfect intellect is challenged. I am sorry that you are such an angry man!

As it is bound on Earth by Neiman, so shall it be in Heaven…

Neiman,

You announced you were going away. I didn’t ask you to leave. I didn’t tell you to leave. You announced your departure to suitepotato. I took you at your word and bade you not to leave angry.

By replying to me thus you imply that I should not take you at your word.

Say what you mean, mean what you say, do what you say you will.

Who said it was? I expected a little better from you than to twist my comments this way!

LoadTheMule:
How do you know Murtha is in hell?

I agree Murtha was a poor congressman, he even turned on the Marines, all for political advantage, power and money. I do not know if he was otherwise a good husband, father, grandfather, etc., or a Christian man at all; I only say while his record in public life was not a good one, he does deserve credit for his service in war and in the military training leaders and if in other ways he was a good man in private, he deserves more than just condemnation.

Notice how this has turned into an all Neiman all the time thread?
What an attention hog.
Sometimes it ain’t all about you, sanctimonious boy.
Go peddle your war cries.

Read up on what they said when President Reagan died, and when Nixon died.
That was truly pathetic.

I like Neiman, but he brings this stuff upon himself.

I think it’s appropriate to point out the good he’s done, but I think it’s
appropriate to slam his career in Washington.

Have to call my broker and sell Johnstown Pa. short..

Is it your position and of others below that, whenever people do bad things it erases the good they have done and they are then only worthy of our contempt and condemnation?

Hardly a new phenomenon.

The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones

-Wm. Shakespeare, Julius Caesar Act 3, Scene 2

Since when is forgiveness and salvation contingent upon works?

Why the insult? Why can’t I despise the many things this man did, and show some charity by remembering the good and not be trying to please anyone?

Despite Jack Murtha’s many faults and his deserved disdain by most people on the Right, to compare his political shenanigans to the mass murder of McVeigh borders on simple mindedness.

McVeigh did serve in the military, but he became a deranged mass murderer. Murtha served his country with honor and valor and was simply another deranged liberal politician.

I suppose one could stretch the comparison and say in supporting abortion that Murtha was an accessory before, during and after the fact to that mass murder of innocent children. While I spiritually and emotionally agree that abortion is mass murder, it is legal and Murtha never actually performed an abortion; while McVeigh committed multiple felonies and was a direct participant, the only direct participant in his mass murders.

Sorry, it won’t wash!

I don’t need to judge a man who spent the last four decades compromising his own integrity.

He has already passed judgement on himself.

From ABSCAM to gorging at the pork trough to calling our troops murderers to calling for preemptive surrender Murtha was a man who gave comfort to the enemy and heaped shame on all of his life’s previous accomplishments.

May his name quickly be forgotten and fade from history.

Rubbish.

My commentary regarding Murtha remains .

My issue with YOU has been pointed, but not yet uncivil.

I have not heard that one, good point though! Still, as I said, I know I have done a great deal wrong in my life and I would hate that any good I might have done would be forgotten because of mys mistakes in judgment. I believe in a little mercy, even for our enemies!

“Is it your position and of others below that, whenever people do bad things it erases the good they have done and they are then only worthy of our contempt and condemnation? Is it not worth remembering that he honorably and voluntarily risked his own life in the defense of liberty? Is his entire life to be discarded as so much trash? No allowances for human weakness, failure and no credit for risking one’s life in defense of liberty? Does his family now deserve to hear him vilified? ”

There were Germans who could have asked this of Adolph Hitler’s WWI service for his nation. Think about it.

No, it is not my position that evil overshadows everything else, nor has it ever been and if you take that from what I write, you’d be smoking more weed than Rob and taking more pills than Dino.

The fact is, that in the context of his congressional service, he was no more than the other politicians, a self-serving careerist who had no real ethical or moral framework, and was there to stay there above all other things.

Honoring him for a lifetime of serving himself is ludicrous. It’s like honoring vets simply because they are still alive. What’s the alternative? Not living? It’s the default state. Honor them because they did dangerous things for their nation, not because they respirated as part of their autonomic nervous system. Murtha was a full blooded dyed in the wool politician. Their default state is to serve themselves first and maintain their ability to do it. Why honor him for that? Just because some people want to imagine that he was a good guy because some people got some stuff by way of his self-serving?

That’s like honoring everything that died to make the soil that our geraniums grow in. It’s not like they died on purpose to give you that soil, thinking in advance of you.

Neiman, you are hardly one to talk about compassion when you go around rambling about conspiracies against Christians and to make the country go straight to hell. You have no compassion for these people whatsoever. You simply assume they are evil instead of merely stupid.

Stupid leads to far more of what you call evil than purposeful attempts. Dino is a good example. He’s a genuinely mean-spirited sadistic creep who gets off on the suffering and anguish of others. I have little doubt that he tortured and killed animals as a child. He comes here to bully people vicariously because he’s an aggressive weakling and coward, which is the short definition of bully. Has he managed to bring about evil? No. Annoyance yes, major world destroying evil no.

The Nazis and their system were like the liberal system. A system of pure stupid. Pure stupid appeals to people because it doesn’t require them to think or feel beyond just getting on board and feeling belonging and validation. That’s why liberalism is so alluring to the youthful inexperienced. When the unthinking, unfeeling, merely reactive human animal gets moving in large numbers, it’s like Aliens without a single round of ammo on hand.

Evil on the other hand, where we’re speaking of purpose with respect to divine judgment such as the rebellion of Lucifer, is individual and requires purposeful willful decision with all powers of comprehension on hand understanding what is being chosen and choosing to do it anyways.

Go back to Hannah Arendt’s Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil. People didn’t consider what they were doing to be a great moral wrong, an attack on G-d, but rather that it was not different from filing papers and doing taxes. It was a LACK of consideration and a LACK of caring about other possibilities that makes that stuff possible. There’s no Satan behind everything. There’s no big conspiracy of people setting out to purposely do wrong, it’s that they are stupidly short-sighted, empathically retarded, and emotionally simplistic.

That’s how big bad things happen, and Murtha took part in the ongoing stupid here in the USA. Don’t expect me to cry crocodile tears.

We did that, and he insulted us as “pissing on graves” and “exercizing partisan hate”.

If you wish to debate kindly, I will debate kindly. If you wish to insult me, I can play that game as well. However, most of us were more than civil to Neiman long after he started insulting us. He wanted to be able to insult us with impugnity and not get called on it, and acted like a poor victim when we called BS.

Neiman brought this on himself.

cite the law.

Bwahahahah!!!!!!

Good on you now, call a cop.

While you’re at it, you might want hurl a few more epithets at 2hotel9 and show us how much you love yourself.

You will hear it again.
Hopefully you are even handed when you apply your standards.
(just some friendly advice)

You’re free to do whatever you choose to do. And that’s just the point, isn’t it? So am I, and anybody else here.

If you want to dispense charity to Murtha you’re free to do so, if I want to heap scorn, I’m free to do so, If you want to chastise me for exorcising my freedom you’re free to do so, just be prepared for some scorn heaping yourself.

And let’s also point out that you asked me to show you both whining and disrespect. I did both. You pulled a RBB and claimed sarcasm! Does that make you a child of the devil Neiman?

I cannot, for the life of me, fathom where you get off on lecturing anyone about showing Murtha the respect he deserves…none…given your treatment of RBB, who you know nothing about.

Pick the beam from thine own eye…

They don’t call it ‘Say Anything’ for nothing, Tood.

Yeesh, the guy died from complications from gall bladder surgery. That is like dying from an appendectomy these days. Glad I had my gall bladder out and survived.

Notice how this has turned into an all Neiman all the time thread?

The only thing noticeable here, is that you cons turned against Neiman because he dared say something good about someone y’all despise.
Y’all made it about Neiman and now you are blaming him.

OK!

The only thing noticeable here, is that you cons turned against Neiman because he dared say something good about someone you all despise.
You all made it about Neiman, and now you are blaming him.

this is a horrid way to get someone out of office. even people as vile as murdering teddy k and this twit. i would be joyful if he lived to lose and died an honorable, though wrong about much, marine.

And while we’re at it, any sharp stabby pains in your midsection, say around the Gall Bladder region?

No. None. Thank you for your concern.

Is there something about this whole freedom thing that you just don’t get?

Yes there is: Incivility.
If you have any more questions on the subject please direct them to Il Grillo Parlante.*

*Jiminy Cricket.

His honorable service to his country is more than offset by his stabbing soldiers in the back. And trying to get them jailed without a trial.

Bad things do undo a lot of good. No one talks about Timothy McVeigh’s service to his country. They only speak of his terrorism and killing innocent civilians. Which is as it should be.

OK, exorcist in chief.

Hitler had legal controlling authority, chew on that for
awhile.

I chewed on that for a while. My conclusion: Not the same.

Let them come. I have enough respect to give to everybody.
Including you.

But, but we must remember the good! Timothy McVeigh was a soldier too! That’s what should be remembered…not all that Oklahoma Bombing stuff. And Charles Manson really REALLY loved his mother. And Saddam Hussein never forgot a birthday.

I am always even handed. I give as good as I get and I always laugh at you when you complain about it.

You first, fascist. You sound a lot like a certain Greek colonel or three.

Bronze Star with Valor device,
two Purple Hearts,
Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry

Really? I can’t find one word of whining? Oh please Neiman, I can read.

Thank you your holiness for your second series of self-righteous attacks and condemnation of me. I am thoroughly rebuked and rightly put in my lowly, ignorant, sinful, God condemned place. I pay you my most humble obeisance for having offended your certain moral and intellectual superiority over myself and most other human beings. You have my permission to place me in any classification that suits you and further supports your omniscient self-image.

Call it what you want but that’s hardly civil and extremely pathetic. And then there was this gem.

I am glad the people at SAB will not be my judge on Judgment Day, with a few exceptions they seem to be without any mercy or compassion.

So excuse me, polite and respectful? What a crock of horse$hit. This final part alone shows that you can’t civilly disagree on this:

Lastly, it is gross, hate filled, conservative INTOLERANCE at play here; a series of personal attacks because I would not join you and others in pissing on this man’s grave.

No Neiman, what it is is that you’re being a pathetic whiny child that people have the temerity to disagree with you. I expressed disagreement on Murtha. NO personal attacks. NO insults. NO rudeness. Simple to the point. Your “respectful” counter was to hope that, unlike Suite and I, people will remember YOU did good. So you hope people will think us to be garbage after we die? That’s charity? That’s good will? The hell it is.

I’m not happy Murtha is dead, but I’m not sad either. I’ll not dance or piss on his grave as you so disrespectfully claim. No is my opposition to him based on “partisan conservative hatred” as I’m not a conservative. It’s based off of him facilitating the murder of babies, the betraying of people who are supposed to be his brothers (fellow marines), and being a corrupt politician.

So spare me, Neiman. You’re being a prick and demanding that we thank you for being such a generous prick at the same time. For a supposed Christian, you really need to work on the “love thy neighbor” thing.

He made it about himself when he “exercised” his freedom to preach to all who would prefer to heap scorn upon a corrupt politician, rather than remember whatever “good” he might have committed in spite of himself.

If you want to be nice to a bad guy, go for it. If you tell me I must be nice to a bad guy, you’re going to open yourself up to whatever broadside I might happen to throw at you.

Hate to say it, but I agree with Neiman here.

Anyone who won the Bronze Star with V device, and two purple hearts cannot have been all bad.

There must have been a lot of good in that man.

RIP

So, what kind of diapers do you wear?

Murtha gave a face to “icky.”

cite the law.

Matthew 22:39 NIV, a quote of Leviticus 19:19, to “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
“So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 7:12 NIV

The golden rule: Treat others as you want to be treated.

The golden rule is endorsed by all the great world religions; Jesus, Hillel, and Confucius used it to summarize their ethical teachings. And for many centuries the idea has been influential among people of very diverse cultures. These facts suggest that the golden rule may be an important moral truth.

Tood.

Now that’s funny.

Let God judge him.
Or wait another day.
Like after his funeral.

2hotel9? You feel sorry for him?
Wow! How charitable.

In honor of Murtha’s death, Say Anything apparently died in sympathy for the better part of an hour.

Wow, you went from zero to victim in no time flat.

I don’t know what your military service has to do with the right to disagree, nor did I ever claim you had no such right. You have the right to tell me I should honor Murtha’s service, and I have the right to tell you no. That’s what freedom is about.

Drop the self-righteous pity party and debate like a big boy. You whining like a child that not everyone automatically agrees with you is beneath you. This is a debate. People will disagree with you, and most of us will do it respectfully. That you seem to be unwilling to do so back only speaks to you.

The man is dead. Let the real Judge judge him.
Save your venom for another day.

Drios pesousis, pas aner xylevete.

So, because Murtha didn’t rise to the level of mass murder, we can’t consider him a bad person.

Gotcha. Thanks for the clear up Neiman.

You’re not trying to tell me, a non Greek, but free American, how I should or should not respond to any situation or person, are you?

No, I am not telling a you a damn thing.
God forbid a naturalized citizen tell a born free American citizen how he should respond to any situation or person.
Just giving you friendly advice.