NEW YORK (CNN/Money) – Wal-Mart CEO Lee Scott said he’s urging Congress to consider raising the minimum wage so that Wal-Mart customers don’t have to struggle paycheck to paycheck.

Hey, here’s a crazy notion, Lee. If you’re so f***ing concerned about your employees’ ability to get by on what you’re paying them, why don’t you PAY THEM MORE?

The mere fact that you can say "I’m not going to do [insert job]" means that your doing GREAT!!!!   Have you ever taken a moment to put yourself in the shoes of people in other nations.  We’re having this major immigration debate where people from other countries would risk death to come here and pick fruit…  any you whine about possibly (as unlikely as it is) looking a finger in a factory job. 

The fact that you have that luxury is ASTOUNDING!  Some humility would do wonders!!!!

And, you are able to sit there and TYPE on the INTERNET from a HOME of some sort, FOOD in your belly, BEER in the fridge, CLOTHES on your back, ENTERTAINMENT galore and…   REFUSE to go to a SCHOOL for some additional education people in other lands would STAMPEDE to…

There’s yet another idea:  Take what you know to a foreign country…  there are grants out the bum for that kind of thing!!! (I’ll still fight to cut the government funding of those grants here though, so don’t get to cozy if it’s a federal grant you use)

I’ve given, throughout the course of the night, more suggestions than I care to count.  You do what you want.  I’m going to go to bed knowing that I gave some advice…  and won’t care, in the slightest, while I’m riding my jet skis tomorrow, what you do with it.

And while I dislike the handouts from a Federal level, if they are there, I’d prefer that someone who is going to take personal responsibility for themselves get the money.  It’s already spent money, whether you use it or not…  The laws have to change…  If everyone took the moral stance that you did, the government still wouldn’t give the money back…  the handouts need to cease at the legislative level.  Use it while it’s there…  it won’t be forever. 

You just proved my statement about libertarian philosophy never having a chance in the real world.

I’ve always felt that to take those handouts that are there only add to the problem.

Compare it to drugs.  We waste resources going after supply when we should be curbing demand.

As Reagan said, Government’s job should be to make itself obsolete.  Since ours is a government ‘of the people,’ we will never shrink government until we wean people off of it.

Wow…  I missed a few words in there…

Anyone mind deleting that last post… I have to correct a few sentences… 

Ryan,

A few modest questions for you regarding the "living wage" proposal:

1.  Who determines what the "correct" wage level is that is to be paid?

2.  What is the basis for that determination?  How is the number arrived at?

3.  If your newly passed "living wage" results in an increase in the amount of money being paid to an individual employee (the whole point, as I understand it), where does that extra money come from?

4.  What happens when an employerr decides that he cannot afford to pay the assigned "living wage"?

5.  Is there a provision in the proposed law to keep busineeses from firing employees that they can no longer afford to keep on the payroll? 

People have the ability to set their own minimum wage, they are free to compete for higher wages, accept what the market thinks they are worth or starve.

If you have always dreamed of welding… then DO IT!

Dreamed of Welding?  No.  Would like to know how, yeah.  Can’t afford the training (which I would NEVER DO IN A SCHOOL).

—

Really, I never was complaining about myself.  I was just trying to make a point that

1) not everyone without a job CHOOSES to be unemployed

2) the economy and job market isn’t as rosey as we’d like to think.

NOMINALLY, the economy is booming and doing great.

In REALITY, it never really changes.  The good times just get shifted along the linear line of income.

Oh,and Rob, I am not a moron, thank you very much!

Because Rob, we don’t want to saddle those same taxpayers with workers who are eligible for welfare.  If a business can’t afford to open on its own without government help, then should it be opening in the first place?  Isn’t that the free market as well?  Or is it only the free market when it comes to wages?

The government puts all sorts of regulations on contractors who do business with the government, like use made in America products, have the service/product done with certain specifications, this is just one more or call centers must be done in the US.

"The government puts all sorts of regulations on contractors who do business with the government, like use made in America products, have the service/product done with certain specifications, this is just one more or call centers must be done in the US."

Puzzlefeet,

Perhaps, rather than adding more and more regulations, limitations, and obstacles, to our growing economy, we should instead consider removing some of the ones already in place.  Instead of making it even harder and more expensive to do business, we could make it more efficient, less, costly, less cumbersome and inefficient.  That way there would be more business, with more people employed, and an even lower rate of inflation becasue of the increased competition.  Instead of collectivizing the economy even more, we should look for ways to individualize it and make it sleeker and more efficient.

"Also, if you pay more in wages, that money is spent in the community and turns over something like 3-4 times.  So even if there would a raise in price, that money gets turned over a number of times."

Pusslefeet,

Not to belabor the point, but where does all that extra money come from?  Secondly, please don’t pretend that corresponding rises in prices don’t matter.  That’s called inflation, as those of us who survived the disaster of the Carter presidency well recall.   It does no good to raise wageswithout recognizing that a corresponding rise in prices only diminishes everyone’s buyying power, regardless of their income level, including those who are no longer employed thanks to the implementation of the "living wage".

Learn this well, please!  You can not legislate the market out of existence… no matter how noble your purpose.  

My dad was a government employee (USCG) for over 20 years and we had some hard times in there.

I’m thinking it would have been less hard if you would have got a paperroute. 

"Well, here’s an equally radical notion. CUT YOUR PRICES!"

Bruce,

You’re suggesting that WalMart cut its prices?  Are you by any chance still living at home with Mom and Dad? 

I was reading Fortune (I think, the March ’06 issue) in the Dr office today and I believe something from Warren Buffett at Berkshire dovetails nicely with what Rob108 said just above.  Here is the gist:

In the good ol’ days a family owned the company.  And the wealth.

Then Brokers arrived and convinced the family to let them (brokers) handle their money, for a fee.

Then the Mutual Fund Managers stopped by and, for a fee, suggested that they (MF Mgrs) be allowed to do the heavy lifting.

Then, (of course this went on and on….) 

Buffett concluded by stating the obvious; the family had the same company (same value) but had less wealth (due to fees). 

It’s not directly germaine to this discussion, but I thought it was interesting, and I suspect many of you will understand the pitfalls and lessons to be learned, and applied in other areas of life.  

Remember, experience is knowledge gained through doing something and learning what worked/didn’t work but wisdom is learning that same lesson without having to commit the time/risk/etc to actually do it. 

Free – You’re right that the employer has more cards in his hand, but that doesn’t mean the employee is card-less.  I recognize that in the Micro it may be unrealistic to expect one employee to turn down a job paying too little so the Market can self-correct (he has food to buy, etc) but this does happen.  Often, job candidates are already employed and they are willing to say no to insufficuent pay.  

That you are working hard for you household needs (assumption) is admirable.  But if you should be getting trained to better provide for your spouse (mate, eek!) or your kids then I say "Get Hot!"  Don’t revel in your pride that you work hard.  It’s not enough to be a hard worker if you are smarter/worth more.   

And your comment that a $20/hr worker is worth $20 and a $5.15/hr worker is worth either .10c or $10 is false.  If he was worth $10 the employer, even a bad one, would eventually promote/raise him.  Or he would quit (assuming he were looking and staying marketable, trained, etc – and if he weren’t staying marketable/looking for new work, he is lazy and deserves to remain at the bottom).   

Hhandouts help no one, especially the handee. 

My prediction…parity in numbers between the press and demonstrators.

BatOne, Perhaps you can direct me to some statistical information that shows me that there have been substantial job losses due to the implementation of living wage laws.  And perhaps you can direct me some statistical information that shows that the enactment of living wage laws has substantially diminished the buying power of the recipients.  I’d be interested in reading them.  Thanks.

P:  I guess you just don’t want to understand my position, because I could not make it any more clear:  I don’t support subsidies!!!  Both "minimum wage" and "living wage" are subsidies.  They do not produce anything, but they both raise costs.  They are simply political ploys to buy votes from citizens who don’t understand basic economics.  I doesn’t matter that the govt-mandated increase in the cost of labor goes into the community, since it came from the community to begin with, in the form of taxes.  It is a pyramid scheme, since it just shifting money around.  A society produces so much prosperity, and if some of that prosperity is drained off to buy votes for the political class, it is unavailable for the private sector to use to generate more prosperity.  Better to leave the money in the pockets of those who do the work to earn it.

One thing: I didn’t differentiate about higher govt wages than the same job in the private sector.  I meant federal govt jobs, not necessarily state or local govt jobs, although the state and local govts do it if they can confiscate enough money from the productive people. 

Rob,

The North Dakota Progressive Coalition is not organizing this rally.

 He does.   Everyone in America has the power to start their own business and do the thing better than the rest.  If you CHOOSE to work for a corporation, then that is your CHOICE.  You could CHOOSE to start your own corporation…

Yeah.  Anyone can START a business.  Even I have done that.  But eventual a person needs to pay their bills.

Good luck figuring out how to come up with venture capital. 

 

Robert 108, In North Dakota the wage and classification system is set at 95% of the market, and most employees are between 70 and 80% of market, well below market.

Rob, I think it is counterproductive to finance a business that is undercapitalized and can’t make it without government assistance. My father started his own small business on his own, never took any money from the government, never asked for a loan, a tax break, or for free land and infrastructure improvements.  I also think it is counter productive to saddle the taxpayers with costs for starting up the business and then also for subsidizing its workers.  So I think it is entirely appropriate that if a business wants this free/reduced money, then wage and job targets should be part of that otherwise we get more WebSmarts.

Chief, I am unsure of which post you are referring to, could you let me know which post you are asking about?

Can’t relocate without money now can you?

You are such a defeatist!   Yoda is screaming at you… 

When did I suggest (outside of my VCs tripping over themselves comment, which was obviously not to be taken a Gospel) the starting a business was easy?  Of course "sweat equity" is requried.  Note that I said you needed to find a thing you do better than anyone else. 

Unless you have awesome hands and can get a gig as a Hand Model (a la George Castanza), you will have to pour over a Business Plan and work the SBA over to get every scrap of advice, soliciting input from lots of sources,and eventually, present your plan to many Bank and VC-types.  Swaet equity! 

Just because ND is not CA or NY doesn’t mean there aren’t hundreds of needs going unfulfilled by the North Dakodians (sp).  Quit waitin’ for a hand out and break out the sweat suit! 

Ryan: I was dissing the politicians, not the govt employees.  I thought that was clear, so maybe you are just making a false argument on purpose.  Shame on you!

Most govt jobs pay more than the same job in the private sector.  It’s just welfare by a different name.  It’s also vote-buying by the political class, subsidized(as always) by us, the taxpayers. 

Free, you wrote:  "Well, I think it’s wrong that this State spends MILLIONS to figure out ways to keep and get more people here and yet the colleges offer very little that can be used here."  What is it that can be used in North Dakota?  Colleges teach a variety of majors so students come out with a education.  It is your choice as to what you major in and what you decide to do with that education.  I have also had a number of jobs that I never thought in a million years I’d be doing.  I took a job that I didn’t think I would like cuz it was so far from what I thought I knew to do, but "needed" the job.  Best decision I made, met the right people and my career then took off. 

Do something out of your comfort zone, who knows where it will lead. Take that job you don’t want to do, who knows what will happen.

And FreeRep – Why are you against a 0.10c job?  Chances are that you won’t be the guy wrking that job.  And none of your friends either.  Only the very least sophisticated would take that job, and those who did would get promoted within short order (with pay increases) for risk of losing them to another employer.

If there really are 10-centers out there, do we want them unemployed?  Or do we want our local businesses to have to carry them at 500 times their value?  I say no. 

Your assumption is that the worker has any economic power at all.

In a Supply Side system, the Employer controls the wages because he/she controls the work that is a avalible.  Hence, he controls the Supply of Jobs – and thus, the wage.

Theorecticly, someone making $20 is worth that.  But someone making $5.15 can either be worth 10 cents, or $10 depending on their output.

 

And by the way, I’ve never made more than $10/hr in my life so I guess I am closer to this discussion than you assume I am. 

instead of trying to find VC, find something you do better than anyone (in your area) and do that. 

If you have a solid Business Plan and a marketable product/service, the VC will be tripping over itself to help you to help them.

If he was worth $10 the employer, even a bad one, would eventually promote/raise him.  Or he would quit (assuming he were looking and staying marketable, trained, etc – and if he weren’t staying marketable/looking for new work, he is lazy and deserves to remain at the bottom).  

Your living a world of fantasy.  People don’t get paid what they are worth.  The get paid just enough that they won’t go down the street to get a job that for some reason pays the exact same wage. 

Check out this post by Jay over at Wizbang!  Part of it applies here.

You are full of excuses.  Maybe you could start a website (maybe Rob will give you a few pointers, of course, he’ll likely charge a consultant fee so skip that….) that lists all the best excuses, for all the topics that people will be willing to pay for…

For everyone of your excuses, there are opportunities…   

Have you looked at Ingersoll Rand, they build the Bobcats, in  Bismarck and in Gwinner. It is manufacturing but great wages, excellent benefits in a unionized workplace.  Just a suggestion.  They have been hiring but would have to start on the night and weekend shifts. I think you can check at Job Service.

Tough to get work there.  Everyone wants to work there.  I’ve done the assembly line thing in Fargo – during my "blue collar tour." aka the year I dropped out of college.  It sucked then, and it would suck even more now because I did complete my education 

Also, Qwest may have openings in their credit service department, also a unionized work setting with pretty good wages and benefits. 

Telephone work sucks.  I’ve tried telemarketing and I’ve done customer support.  Those jobs just make you pull out your hair. 

 

—-

I guess my biggest thing is I’d like to use this degree that I’m $30,000 in debt because of.

I think your early majors were easier to find a job in.  However any college degree provided it doesn’t come from NDSU  is a great investment.

Seth, I am out.  Good luck with Free.  Thanks the agreement a few posts up.

I have to tell my daughter, all the time, to stop making excuses.  No one wants to hear them.  We can all make excuses, but they do nothing to get you out of the situation.   NOTHING!  You think people will help you out of a hole for the rest of your life?   NO!  First you have to stop digging, then you have to find a way out.  Giving up with excuses will do nothing but give you a new, bigger shovel.

I "command" a certain wage.  I will not work for less than a set number of dollars.  Anyone can do it.  You just have to have a skill that others are willing to pay you for, then you market that skill.

Good paying jobs are like a needle in a haystack.

Even for someone like me with a 4-year degree and experience in several areas – some more marketable than others – I still am at a loss to find a job where I can ever break even with my bills. 

I know eventually that I will have an income to actually live on – and it will likely be a tsunami and be all of a sudden – but in the mean time whats a person to do? 

Philosophically yes, I am a Libertarian.  But I also know that from a practical standpoint theres no value in the real world.  In the real world, and in politics, the only thing that is practical is some variation of populism. 

It’s not the education that North Dakota offers.  The education system trains for many different fields and careers.  I went back a number of times and now have three degrees.  If someone would have told me twenty years ago, that I’d have the job I have today, I would have said they were nuts. I’m still paying off a few school loans but they were well worth it. 

I know it’s a bit of time away, yet but the ND Legislative Council hires staff during the legislative sessions and that is a great place to be networking especially for someone like you that has an interest in  politics.  They usually start looking in Oct-Nov. and start in Dec. sometime.  Clerking for a committee is a great way to get some experience and to look around state government for a career.  It also allows you to meet legislators who get to know you who may be able to put you in touch with other employers that may be suitable for you and them. 

As far as experience, I know my way around a wrench, a keyboard, and a campaign.

Basicly a Jack of all Trades – Expert of none.

You can spend your time talking about how the world should be…or how the world appears through whatever rose colored glasses you have on at the time…but until you see the world through the eyes that the policies you advocate affect… and realize that the way you treat people will trickle back to you eventually, then you have a different view of things.

Have you looked at Ingersoll Rand, they build the Bobcats, in  Bismarck and in Gwinner. It is manufacturing but great wages, excellent benefits in a unionized workplace.  Just a suggestion.  They have been hiring but would have to start on the night and weekend shifts. I think you can check at Job Service.

Also, Qwest may have openings in their credit service department, also a unionized work setting with pretty good wages and benefits. 

Most of the places that I know of are unionized but great wages and good benefits.

Started in Computer Science

Good choice.  Lots of options  

. Moved to Business Admin

Valid in any industry 

Then to Economics.

Too Much theory for me but there are real world jobs.

Then to Poly/Sci-History double major.

What were you thinking? 

Ended up with a University Studies degree with concentrations in Political Science, Economics, and Human Resources.

Mr Real World.  Meet Free Republican.  

Quit blaming others for your decisions.  As Seth said, it’s not too late but it’s about attitude. 

Somehow all this stemmed from someone calling me a socialist for writing an opinion based on economic theory and reality.

I called you a socialist as your stated view on the "living wage" is a socialistic one. 

Sorry for wasting your oh so valuable time.

It certainly wouldn’t be a waste of my time if you’d gain something from it….  but regardless, it hasn’t been a waste to me.  I expressed some thoughts in words, which helps solidify them for myself.  and perhaps someone will read them and go on to be another Bill Gates, or Bill Cosby. 

I hope your employer doesn’t get too mad.

I’m not sure why they would.  I’ve been off the clock since I started this conversation…  but since I’m salaried and frequently do off hour support work,  I can’t see why they’d care as long as I get the job done. 

Loose the snark.  <– another bit of advise   I’m not treating you like that.

We waste resources going after supply when we should be curbing demand.

If we cut off supply then the users will be forced to self-ween.  If we continue to focus on demand, the (wealthy and motivated) supply chian will continue to adapt their marketing to keep the weening process ineffective. 

Puzzlefeet,

It’s not that I haven’t tried.  I’m still waiting to hear back on a position with the IowaGOP that I interviewed for back in Feb.

What I have been speaking on here really is just a continuation of the message both I and Ian Karvo were trying to get out there with his candidacey.

We are amongst the young people that would work for less here in North Dakota if the opprotunities were here.  He is a teach who can’t get a teaching job.   And me, well, we wont get into that anymore.

 

If you think of it as a waste, you further depreciate yourself and thus your wage.  Hold you head up high, and move on to the next phase.  

If you have always dreamed of welding… then DO IT!  Do what you enjoy.  Worry less about the money.  When you do what you love the money will come.  As ANYONE who is successful. In fact… talk to EVERYONE who is successful.  Don’t give them excuses, just ask them their thoughts then LISTEN and LEARN.  I started doing that a number of years ago.  I’ve met and spoken with (in their homes no less) with half a dozen CEO’s and x-CEO’s discussing this and that.  the recommend books that changed their lives…  they offer tips (sometimes stock tips)…  they offer insight.  You don’t have to follow any of the suggestions, just listen to them.  You will form your own destiny, but allow others to teach you their experiences so you don’t have the same pitfalls.

Robert –

I agree with your comment about basic Econ, but the opposite is equally true, that "SUPPLY calls forth DEMAND". 

I also agree that removing the demand of drug use will reduce. and eventually eliminate, the supply (think buggy whips).  However, the suppliers will resist (due to the profit, etc) and will continue to find new demand. 

My point is that we have to decide which end of the Econ equation we want to focus our efforts on, since either will result in the opposite being shut down.  Since shutting down demand only causes the (cash-flush and motivated) Supply to find new Demand, we should concentrtate on removing the Supply and let the (cash-poor and unsophisticated) Demand find new Supply.  I believe they won’t be able to. 

Sure, some enterprising souls will venture into the Supply business but with sufficient press and publicity about the fate of the Supply being taken down, that will be kept to a minimum.   

I will say this in conclusion, as bad as you may think my attitude is, is probably better than 95% of the attitudes of people my age.

Which is part of the reason I don’t spend much time trying to convince 95% (or whatever the number is) of today’s youth that they can do whatever they want.  You seem to get a lot of it already…

I’ve never asked for handout.  I’ve qualified for all the programs you can list but have not because I would rather whine and complain than leach off society.

And while I dislike the handouts from a Federal level, if they are there, I’d prefer that someone who is going to take personal responsibility for themselves get the money.  It’s already spent money, whether you use it or not…  The laws have to change…  If everyone took the moral stance that you did, the government still wouldn’t give the money back…  the handouts need to cease at the legislative level.  Use it while it’s there…  it won’t be forever. 

Tom: Don’t often disagree with you, but you are simply wrong on this one.  Supply does not call forth demand.  Think Edsel.  Restricting supply simply raises the price, which increases supply by attracting new suppliers and stimulating production among existing suppliers.  We have been following the wrong strategy of trying to choke off supply with disastrous results, not to mention tremendous waste of taxpayer money and erosion of legitimate constitutional rights.  Our demand for cocaine, to give one example, coupled with the attempts at restricting the supply, has done two things:  Restricted the drug trade to organized international cartels, and destabilized the govts of at least three South American Nations.  Not good.  It’s time to try something that works.  Our present policy simply weeds out any but the most desperate, violent and well-financed suppliers.  We are helping them evolve.

Free: Drop the victim stuff.  It will never get you anywhere.

Just get bored with one thing and go look for a challenge somewhere else, is that so bad?

 No, It just makes you unmarketable…  What do you want?

 Really!  What do you want?

We all make choices then have to live with the consequences.  If you studied the wrong things for your area, then move or study something else.  

 

Tom: A few points:  We aren’t helping the strongest suppliers tighten their grip on the market.  That is what the govt is trying to do, but the high price brings the supply out of the woodwork.  It is the demand(the "want it" factor).  What our war on drugs is doing is simply ensuring the survival of the fittest.  Information, I’m afraid, is the only way to decrease the demand.  Enforcement is enticing, but it just doesn’t work.  There are no parallels with WalMart here.  No one is forced out of the market here;  they just fail at making enough money to stay in business.  It happens every day in every part of the economy.  The only reason WalMart is successful is that they are offering something people want.  They have no power to compel people to buy their stuff, and so do no forcing.

Even if we had jurisdiction in those other countries, nothing would change.  Black markets are a product of a perceived inequity between price and value in some cases, and when there is a lot of demand for something that has been made through legislation to be less available than the demand requires.  So, the only real answer is to reduce the demand for dangerous, illegal drugs that ultimately ruin their lives.   

Robert, you and I (now) agree on, I believe every point.  You’re last comments regarding "us helping the strongest vs the govt doing that" reflect my poor wording.  I meant "we the gov’t" are (unintentionally) helping the strongest. 

And my Walmart reference was tongue-in-cheek.  I again aaccept full responsibility for my hastily typed, and non-proofread, words.  I have no problem with a better system taking over where an older, less efficient system is no longer up to the task (again, I love the buggy whip analogy).  There are still things that a Walmart (despite its obvious economies of scale) cannot do.  It is in those areas that the Mom-and-Pop’s of our world need to shift to.

Education over enforcement.  Good point. 
But let’s not completely forget the value of a good ol’ public flogging….  

You have a point!

I’ll agree! 

Now, back to the minimium wage issue.
I’ve noticed that some classify it as "a hand-out."
If that is the case, then so are tax cuts.
Sure, it was your money in the first place.  But without the tax cut, its no longer yours.
Thats some real fuzzy logic.
Yes its a price/wage support.
Yes it is government regulation.
But in no way is it a hand out.  The same work is being done.
The basic definition of a handout is "something for nothing."
Sure, raising the wage could be called "more for the same." But there is still an exchange of money for services.

As for it causing inflation.  As I noted in my first post, the inflation has occured.  Wages on on the bottom have lagged.  The only inflation would be artificially caused by employers not passing along the good profits from the last decade or so.

Just cause I want to do more than make someone else rich, but don’t have the finacial means to work for myself, doesn’t mean I want to start at the top.

It means I don’t want to waste my life away. 

And I’m in Bismarck but could be anywhere else in 72 hrs.

Oh, man…  where to begin. 

 

Well, you’ve been busy since I was gone.

Look, the ideals you claim to espouse are the right ones.  You should have the ability to make your own contract with another person for what ever you agree upon.  The constitution specifically states that Government should not interfere with a contract between two individuals.  When you go to an employer you make a deal for a set premium for your time.  It’s your responsibility to determine what your time is worth.

Factory jobs pay fairly well because there are a lot of people like you that won’t do them.  The employers know this and are forced to pay more money for the employees.  They are also forced into keeping the environment safe because in a free market, employees would leave if the environment was too unsafe for them…  (you also have negligent breach of contract as a legal prose to shut down the business)…  (but, did you consider that if the factory is hiring, they might need additional computers?  Or automation? Or executives? Or… or…)

You did not gain the skills needed to find gainful employment in your local.  I mean do you think there’s a lot of call for "lawn guys" in Alaska?  Perhaps you could move elsewhere.  At age 20 I picked up and moved from NH to FL with nothing but my car, $100 and some luggage.

When I do computer work on the side, I charge $65/hr.  I do pro-bono work for anyone over the age of 65…  (which is a lot of my customers… Though I never tell them it’s pro-bono.  I get parts and expenses and make them think they paid me…)  You got the smarts.  Start a consulting firm on the side.  Do web hosting.  My boss has a side business publishing and maintaining web sites for various local businesses.  She does it on the side.  It takes little time.  But, instead of worrying about making more money, consider hunkering down to a budget.  

I recently heard of a guy and his wife who (with a new born) were able to get out of $20,000 debt, sock away $7,000 and have a second child all in three years.  The guy is a pizza delivery guy.  Wife doesn’t work.

He made it happen cause they spent NOTHING!  It took three years, but it is done and they are building wealth.

You lack a plan, my friend.  Don’t look to me (or anyone else) for it, though…  I haven’t yet decided what I want to be when I grow up… 

Buy and rent houses or something… There are a BILLION ways to make it in the world…  but it needs to be something you enjoy…  the money will come when you do what you love.

Do you need the government to be your nanny?  You can see where that leads, can’t you?

People buy too much crap that should not have made it up their priority list.  Period.

Amen Brother! 

Seriously it’s not the lack of jobs that you’re complaining about then, you just want to start on the top. That’s not the way it works.

So the logic your using is this:

Because he doesn’t want to be a roughneck;

in addition to the fact he’s worked the sh*t jobs for years already;

he can’t find a decent job because he wants to start at the top.

Interesting.

I didn’t realize that $25k/yr was "The Top."  Or really that much to ask for.  

I’m sorry I ask for so much.  Your right, 30% over the poverty line is an obscene salary. 

 

*Please note the sarcasm* 

 

Free – You are sill making excuses (you wish you were Asian as if that has anything to dow ith being able or willing to add). 

But this is priceless:

If that is the case, then so are tax cuts.
Sure, it was your money in the first place.  But without the tax cut, its no longer yours.
Thats some real fuzzy logic.

Tax cuts are not a hand out.  Tax cuts are the govt’ getting less of your money.  They didn’t give you anything, for a service or for no service.  They took less!  Simple logic.

Yes its [minimum wage and living wage] a price/wage support.
Yes it is government regulation.
But in no way is it a hand out.  The same work is being done.
The basic definition of a handout is "something for nothing."

If the same work is being done, as you assert, then why should the Boss be required to pay more?  This is where I start to see some fuzz.

Sure, raising the wage could be called "more for the same."

And it is. That’s why is called a handout.  Do this much work today, get a dollar.  Do the same work tomorrow, get two dollars.  Bingo!

But there is still an exchange of money for services.

Exchange money for services, no one has a problem with.  We have the problem with exchanging more money for the same services.

And if you take Puzzle (?) up on all those union jobs (I know unions are great to work for, I’ve heard it all) then you can look forward to "more for less".  The union will negotiate (Nothing wrong with this legally, or ethically, mind you.  If its legal and on the books, go for it, golden parachutes and all.) more pay and better benefits and allow you to produce less.

I’ve never seen a hard working person who was highly skilled and in demand that preferred to stay in the union.   Now I saw lots of unions vote to retain the union, but that is simply because most of the union workers were not like the few hard working, highly skilled, in-demand labor.  The hard working. skilled labor would have been given multiple pay raises if they worked in a merit-based system.  Unfortunately, many industries are not merit-baseed and the union still paid pretty good.

—————————— 

And before I forget, the gem about how solid you were in College (Disclaimer: I quit college after failing to attend Clac and failing that course repeatedly.  Never got my degree, did go back for Business type courses towards the end of opening my business.  Still have no college degree, still don’t especially need it.) with all those majors being declared and undeclared.  

It makes me want to comment, unfairly since I have not met you not do I know the context, that you were looking for the easy ride and kept changing buses when the one you were on at that time required work/effort.  

I could be wrong, and we’ll never know.  Well, maybe Ian knows but he’s not talking, right… 

I also want to point out that by forcing people to accept substandard wages or starve, you’re pushing people onto public assistance

Check your history.  Lincoln freed the slaves.  

The only one forcing anyone to do anything is forcing employers to pay more than the job is worth. 

 

On Rob’s living wage claims:

Myth #2: "Passing a Living Wage is bad for the local economy; small companies will go out of business."

FACT: Paying a Living Wage is good for the local economy because small local businesses rely on local dollars. More money for city dwellers will mean more customers for municipal businesses.

&heellip; Myth #3: "Passing a Living Wage will hurt business."

FACT: Paying a living wage will create new business as new revenue promotes commerce. Also, some economists argue that higher pay results in increased productivity by making jobs more desirable to both get and to keep, thereby reducing recruitment, training and supervisory costs associated with high rates of turnover.

&heellip; Myth #8: "The wage increase will lead to job loss."

FACT: Once again, the increase did not lead to job loss. In fact, the conclusion of The Sky Hasn’t Fallen report ends with, "Given the statistically and economically insignificant (and mostly positive) employment effects of the change, it might be more useful if the next debate spends less time focusing on the cost of the increase and more on the benefits to low-income families." (The report was supported by grants from the Rockefeller, and the Charles Stewart Mott Foundations and the US Department of Labor.)

I also want to point out that by forcing people to accept substandard wages or starve, you’re pushing people onto public assistance (TANF, food stamps, welfare, etc.).  By promoting a living wage, we can drastically reduce the number of working families receiving assistance and therefore reduce the amount of taxes we pay to subsidize low wages.  (What a twist – the Democrat wants to end subsidies and the Republicans want to push more people into public housing.)

And Robert108, in regards to this:

P:  The govt is the last sector that should be imposing any wage standards at all.  What they pay is our money.  They don’t earn a cent of it, so they feel free to toss it around.  They just jack up our taxes to pay for their "living wage", so we all end up paying, and it costs the political class exactly nothing.  In fact, they make political hay by deluding the "workers" into thinking they are getting something for nothing.  PT Barnum would be proud.  What a scam!

My dad was a government employee (USCG) for over 20 years and we had some hard times in there.  Your attitude is offensive and disrespectful to millions of people who work hard to provide for their families.  Government employees deserve as much respect as anyone else.

It makes me want to comment, unfairly since I have not met you not do I know the context, that you were looking for the easy ride and kept changing buses when the one you were on at that time required work/effort. 

3.65 GPA.  With only 16 of 128 credits below the 200 level.  

No underwater basket weaving here.  Just get bored with one thing and go look for a challenge somewhere else, is that so bad?

The reason I didn’t finish the Poly Sci degree in the end, besides the lack of foreign language skills) was I couldn’t stand the liberal professors from U of Wis – Madison and U of Oregon.

I may go back and get a real degree someday.  More likely I just work on an MBA or MPA. 

Actually, Tom, this thread is about the "living wage"  and as such tying it to the government is what it is all about.  If you click on the URL I provided above, the EPI provides a good primer on Living Wage.

Also, if you pay more in wages, that money is spent in the community and turns over something like 3-4 times.  So even if there would a raise in price, that money gets turned over a number of times.

If a minimum wage earner gets 1 dollar an hour raise ($2,000.00 a year – some one help me with the actual after tax amount) what’s that — about 38 dollars a week?  Just what do you think they will do with that windfall? Buy shoes for the kids?  More milk? Maybe a dinner out? Heath insurance? All of that money will be spent immediately… and isn’t consumer spending one of the driving factors of a robust economy?

 

As to where the money will come from…

ABC News: Exxon Chairman Gets $400 Million Retirement Package Amid Soaring Gas Prices

Trickle down is a joke, what did Bush 41 call it…anyone…anyone

Well, call me crazy, but I’ve never understood why businesses should pay workers one dime over the level at which they are capable of attracting qualified applicants.

And, if a business is applying for a government grant or loan or whatever to get started…why on earth would we want to saddle them with a requirement like this? 

2) the economy and job market isn’t as rosey as we’d like to think.

I’m not sure how it could get much rosier.  As Larry Kudlow said recently, we’ve never had it so good.  If you’re waiting around for "better times," I wouldn’t hold my breath.  This country is thriving right now, whether you want to believe it or not.

which I would NEVER DO IN A SCHOOL

There you go limiting yourself again.

1) not everyone without a job CHOOSES to be unemployed

Baloney.  There are always job.  It may not be your ideal job, but there are always jobs. 

Hey, here’s a crazy notion, Lee. If you’re so f***ing concerned about your employees’ ability to get by on what you’re paying them, why don’t you PAY THEM MORE?

Wal-Mart seems to be attracting plenty of applicants at their current level of compensation.  So, why should they pay them more?

If I were in state I would totally come down and counter-demonstrate.

Free, if you’d quit espousing ideas that sound socialist people would probably quit calling you that.

Why do you think it is the state’s job to cater an education specifically to you.

I agree with Seth, it sounds to me like you haven’t made up your mind on what to do more than you were cheated by the state’s university system.

Try taking some responsibility.