Say Anything Blog

Good point there Pilgrim

I am disgusted to the point of nausea at the animals who would not only kill her, but blow up bombs in crowds, killing innocent men, women and children.

Be careful using that argument. It can be turned right back around.

We do the same thing, except that our bombs come from the air and we call the innocent “collateral damage”. Innocents die in war. It’s a point that many of us make to others. She was a legit target to the Islamic nutballs. At least this time they weren’t aiming for innocents to die, even though that is also a legitimate war tactic.

Tragic end for a brave woman.

Islam needs to wake up and purge itself of this vile corruption of their religion.

likwidshoe

You are just phucked up.

Mickey - that’s easy to say.

No idea why you said it though so an argument would have been better.

Do I need to remind you that war is Hell and you do what it takes to win? Viewed from that light, the Islamic nutball’s actions can be viewed rationally. They are not rational people, don’t get me wrong, but they are rational actors in the stage of war. They are playing to win.

There is a big difference between using a baby as a carrier for a bomb and doing what you can to minimize civilian casualties (but failing).

These kind of things can definitely backfire in ways the murderers didn’t intend.

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Lik, exactly when has America targeted crowds of innocent people? And yes, they intended for massive casualties, that is why they backstopped the shooter with a carbomb.

Bhutto knew this was going to happen. She had accepted it and often placed herself in positions where it could happen. In this case she was outside of the protection afforded by her armored vehicle, had she remained inside, the suicide bomber was the backup. She refused to bow down before her enemies, and dared them to kill her publicly.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The Whistle - There is a big difference between using a baby as a carrier for a bomb and doing what you can to minimize civilian casualties (but failing).

Agreed. Just warning to be careful with that argument. It WILL come back to bite us in the ass.

2Hotel9 - Lik, exactly when has America targeted crowds of innocent people?

Come on man. This isn’t where the conversation should be heading. Some leftie would normally take it into a blame America shitfest. I’m just trying to talk about rational actors and rational actions in war.

Try this answer (already had it typed up because I knew where this was headed):

Sometimes the way to win is a war of attrition.

Sometimes you break the will of the people. It works.

These are legit war tactics. The whole idea of civilized warfare is an empty wish. We Westerners generally fight “civilized” with one hand tied behind our backs, but it remains to be seen if that is the ideal situation. Personally, I think it just prolongs the suffering. I am happy that this nation didn’t have such silly notions in previous times.

We do the same thing, except that our bombs come from the air and we call the innocent “collateral damage”. Innocents die in war.

likwidshoe, there is a huge difference between ‘us’ and ‘them’ .. We do not PURPOSELY target innocent civilians as Islamic suicide bombers do. When innocent civilians die as a result of our bombs, we issue sincere apologies, and sometimes even give reparations to the families. On the other hand, suicide bombers are purposefully going out to kill as many innocent civilians as possible, and are praised as martyrs afterwards.

HUGE difference. I wish you would note it.

HUGE difference. I wish you would note it.

*sigh* I do Jen. Are you a new reader?

hi there, yes I am… though actually I just stumbled onto this site from a link from another newsite.

And Thank You for noting the difference.

Here you go:

While in war, we have to guard against losing our morality, losing sight of why we are fighting, becoming the enemy, and etcetera.

At the same time, we have to balance things with the need to end the war; or at least fight towards ending it. That means taking the gloves off and fighting to win.

If we don’t do that, then the reality is that our enemies won’t defeat us - we will defeat ourselves with our own virtue.

That’s why I cautioned against Pilgrim’s argument. One day we may wake up and take the gloves off in this war against Islam. When and if that happens, many of our targets will be targeted while they are in crowds. Our enemy likes to hide among innocents because they know we generally won’t target them. When the gloves come off, Pilgrim’s argument will be turned around and used against us. And we’ll have no argument against it.

Lik does have a point; we also firebombed a LOT of civilian areas like Tokyo, Berlin, and Dresden, including many that had no military importance, during WWII.  War is Hell, as Patton noted, and Lee noted that it’s good that war is so terrible, else we would grow too fond of it.

But that said, there is a fundamental difference here; we’ve killed the other guy’s innocents.  They’re sending their own children—even their babies—on missions of mayhem.  Our country’s wrong is to target innocents; theirs is to violate very mother-love in their jihads.

But that said, there is a fundamental difference here…

That’s where I have to point out that I was only speaking of the argument Pilgrim made that was blockquoted in my first comment. If we become paralyzed at the reality of innocents dying in war while targeting the enemy!, then we are going to lose.

PS: other war tactics were talked about as well. But those other war tactics can only come after, well after, the reality of innocents dying in war while targeting the enemy.

we also firebombed a LOT of civilian areas like Tokyo, Berlin, and Dresden, including many that had no military importance, during WWII. 

DWIGHT EISENHOWER -”...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing.”

ADMIRAL WILLIAM D. LEAHY –“I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.”
-Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman

HERBERT HOOVER - “...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945…up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs.”

GENERAL DOUGLAS MacARTHUR - [when asked] He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor.”

BRIGADIER GENERAL CARTER CLARKE -”...when we didn’t need to do it, and we knew we didn’t need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn’t need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs.”

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

The Japanese were ready to surrender.

But they didn’t.  They also didn’t surrender after the Hiroshima bomb.

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Furthermore in the invasion of Okinawa one-third of the civilians there were killed in the battle. 

I think given the perspective of the years you’d have to think that the Japanese government would have fought on resulting in millions of civilians killed as well as soldiers on both sides.

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Beware…. this same culture of religion and craziness is now widespread through the western world. Wake up before it is too late and don’t let the civilised west get corrupted with this backward culture.

Beware…. this same culture of religion and craziness is now widespread through the western world.

Yeah, we call it liberalism. The religion of cultural Marxism. Everything is relative except when it is Western, white, male, Christian, or American - then it’s bad.

Wake up before it is too late and don’t let the civilised west get corrupted with this backward culture.

Too late! Entire European countries are currently falling to this backward culture.

But they didn’t.  They also didn’t surrender after the Hiroshima bomb.

HERBERT HOOVER - “...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945…up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs.”

Telling one lie or even consistently lying about one subject…doesn’t make you a liar…

robert108 on May 18, 2009 at 03:23 pm

“You have absolutely no reason, none, to trust our word or our actions at this point.”

Titular gop Head Mr. Steele

Of what possible use is all this ignorant finger-pointing? We can quibble all we want about who is more evil in war, the issues of moral relativism, our history, their history, open minds, closed minds; it makes no difference. We are ALL reminded of the terrible danger we face in this violent world. When they come -and they will - they will not spare liberals, conservatives, men, women, children, young or old. WE will be the target.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

the Japanese were prepared to negotiate

Quite a different thing than surrender. I believe Hitler not only prepared to negotiate, but actually negotiated with Neville Chamberlain prior to WWII.
Too bad we’ll never know how that turned out!
/sarcasm

Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

-unsolicited testimonial

Who says that Hoover knew what he was talking about.  He had no position during the war. (He was also wrong about what we needed to do in Europe.)

Since the Japanese did not surrender immediately after Hiroshima you have no point.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Of what possible use is all this ignorant finger-pointing?

There’s a pretty good discussion up above, given the subject matter.

Don’t turn it ugly.

FIrst:  This is terrible News, extremely depressing.  We should all come together over this and work to defeat the enemy. 

Our differences are not too great on days like these.

Now, on a side note:

Come on man. This isn’t where the conversation should be heading. Some leftie would normally take it into a blame America shitfest. I’m just trying to talk about rational actors and rational actions in war.

A Democrat wouldn’t.  Youre making a valid argument, one I would make.

I think what you are doing is mischaracterizing the left, by referring to the “far-left”, which is a concern to those of us who want our party to survive.  But I see that you have received a fair dose of over-reactive responses to a logical, reasonable point.  Something all Democrats experience when they try and rationalize with some on the right.

This example demonstrates to me, what I have been learning over the last 8 years, that Republicans simply can not hear a Democrat, even if they make a good point.  Instead, they will listen to a Republican, even if he uses a Democrats (read: smart person) argument, after their ears tell their brain they just heard something a “Liberal” might say.  But since they know this guy, they let their Irrational Guard down, and finally hear the wisdom that was spoken. 

Amazing.

Any negotiation that left the same type of regime in power in Japan would have been a future disaster that would have resulted in many more deaths.

So what if Tojo stepped down.  The next Tojo would learn from his mistakes and be an even worse foe.

As it turned out the nearly unconditional surrender we received worked out quite well for the Japanese today.  The only condition was keeping the Emperor as a figurehead that likely helped the transition as it turns out.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Well before we nuked Japan we knew that the Germans were developing atomic weapons and we knew what they had been doing to the Jews. We just wanted to drop the bombs so we dropped them on the Japanese rather than the white people of Germany.

A would be informant, in an attempt to gain favor, would come to us in Viet Nam and tell us that Viet Cong were holed up in some village. Based solely on his word, we would napalm the village. The men would run when they heard the planes approaching leaving the women and children to die. If the media caught wind of this, a statement would be issued saying that a number of Viet Cong were targeted and destroyed and, unfortunately, there were a few civilian casualties. You would believe it. 1,000,000 innocent civilians died in Viet Nam while international bankers financed the supply of 80% of NV munitions through Russia. How big does the number have to get before it is not justified by the words collateral damage?

650,000 innocent civilians have died in Iraq while international bankers have made money financing the war. How big does the number have to get before it is not justified by the words collateral damage?

This would not be happening in a white country. 

You know when you drop a 1000LB bomb in a populated area in order to kill one person that you are going to kill many more innocents. You are not trying to avoid it. You just don’t care and you are no better than any radical Muslim suicide bomber.

Well before we nuked Japan we knew that the Germans were developing atomic weapons and we knew what they had been doing to the Jews. We just wanted to drop the bombs so we dropped them on the Japanese rather than the white people of Germany.

EWS maybe you need to pay more attention.  VE day was in May of 1945.  The first nuclear bomb we exploded (in the US) was in July.

Wouldn’t have made much sense to drop the bomb in Germany would it.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Likwid:  If your idea of a ‘good discussion’ is the usual name-calling and rewriting of history which you so frequently indulge in, then I guess it is. But, what is the point of endlessly venting your spleen against people whose views you disagree with?
Why not tell us what you think we should do, instead of grousing about what you think we did? They are coming.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

When she first came back to Pakistan I wrote an article wondering just how long it would take the rabid Islamists in that country to kill her.

It’s not clear that it was the rabid Islamist who killed her.  It could of just as easily been the government, who had locked her up for protesting them.

By the way, I doubt your story about vietnam as women and children can also run when they hear the planes.  Plus most family men would help their wives and children.

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5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

ewes:

Wouldn’t happen in a “white country”?

Yeah….that little fire bombing in Dresden didn’t amount to much, did it?

Look up the numbers: more civilians died in the Dresden fire storms - deliberately started with incendiary bombs - that in either Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

Your argument just took a torpedo amidships.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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pparets - I don’t know what you’re reading and I certainly don’t know what you’re referring to. And you know what? I don’t care either. *shrug*

Hawk:

It’s not clear that it was the rabid Islamist who killed her.  It could of just as easily been the government, who had locked her up for protesting them.

Al-Qaeda just claimed responsibility. Check out my new post at the top of the page.

The future ain’t what it used to be…..

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Hannitized: You make a good point. Its time we stopped listening only to points from our own cherished sources; i.e. Left, right, dem, gop. We are in terrible danger and the assassination of Bhutto should remind us ALL that WE are the target, and they are coming. Now, join this blog as a member! Your posts would be challenging, to say the least.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

what I have been learning over the last 8 years, that Republicans simply can not hear a Democrat,

See: Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman. Apparently, all you learned was wrong!
Go back to school, Hannitized!

Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

-unsolicited testimonial

We just wanted to drop the bombs so we dropped them on the Japanese rather than the white people of Germany.

What a racist twit! We firebombed the “white” people of Dresden before we ever dropped a nuke on anybody!
ews: should your IQ ever reach 48…sell!

Shrugging off the mindless, baseless attacks of Liberal hyenas and jackals since 2007

”(Proof) You’re, as we say in Hawaii, No Ka Oi!”

-unsolicited testimonial

This is the very nature of Islam!

This is the way of the Prophet Mohammed!

This is not the work of a few extremists!

Mohammed by his actions and by the Qur’an and the Hadith teaches Muslims that everyone, Muslim and infidel alike must submit to Allah as taught by the religious leadership or they must suffer death. The Islamic leaders must impose their will on every human being and apparently something in Bhutto’s political views pissed them off and they used her as an excuse to create turmoil, revolution and hopefully a pure Islamic state in Pakistan!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

No Neiman…not true.

The Holy Qur’an only gives the alley-oop for this sort of interpretation.  Radical Islams are the ones who dunked it with blood in mind.

“In fighting a monster one must not become a monster.”
~Nietzsche

I don’t agree.  Mohammad himself was a very violent person.  Islam follows him.

There’s passages that can be taken both ways as I understand, or there’s other passages that take precedence over the peaceful passages.

I’m not trying to claim to be an expert by any means of the Koran.

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10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Dirl126:
While I can appreciate your defense of Islam and others can debate interpretations, but there are so many passages within Islam like those below that any charges of misinterpretation of all of them would require a conspiracy beyond all belief:
Tabari IX:69 “Killing disbelievers is a small matter to us.”
Tabari VIII:141 “The battle cry of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah that night was: ‘Kill! Kill! Kill!’”
Bukhari:V5B59N512 “The Prophet had their men killed, their woman and children taken captive.”
Ishaq:489 “Do the bastards think that we are not their equal in fighting? We are men who think that there is no shame in killing.”
Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”
Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”
Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”
Ishaq:368 “Ka’b’s body was left prostrate [humbled in submission]. After his fall, all of the Nadir Jews were brought low. Sword in hand we cut him down. By Muhammad’s order we were sent secretly by night. Brother killing brother. We lured him to his death with guile [cunning or deviousness]. Traveling by night, bold as lions, we went into his home. We made him taste death with our deadly swords. We sought victory for the religion of the Prophet.”
Tabari VII:97/Ishaq:368 “We carried Ka’b’s head and brought it to Muhammad during the night. We saluted him as he stood praying and told him that we had slain Allah’s enemy. When he came out to us we cast Ashraf’s head before his feet. The Prophet praised Allah that the poet had been assassinated and complimented us on the good work we had done in Allah’s Cause. Our attack upon Allah’s enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.’”
Tabari VII:97 “The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, ‘Kill any Jew who falls under your power.’” Ishaq:369 “Thereupon Mas’ud leapt upon Sunayna, one of the Jewish merchants with whom his family had social and commercial relations and killed him. The Muslim’s brother complained, saying, ‘Why did you kill him? You have much fat in your belly from his charity.’ Mas’ud answered, ‘By Allah, had Muhammad ordered me to murder you, my brother, I would have cut off your head.’ Wherein the brother said, ‘Any religion that can bring you to this is indeed wonderful!’ And he accepted Islam.”

I am sorry, but Islam was founded by a child molesting mass murderer and Islam was born and continues in this spirit today of bloodlust against all infidels, special hatred for Jews and even Muslims that they believe are not true Muslims.

Bhutto made herself a political figure, ruling over men and that violates Islam:

Bukhari:V1B22N28 “The Prophet said: ‘I was shown the Hell Fire and the majority of its dwellers were women who are disbelievers or ungrateful.’ When asked what they were ungrateful for, the Prophet answered, ‘All the favors done for them by their husbands.’”
Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

You know pparets, the only time I’ve talked to you before this was to correct your rewriting of history. Are you pissed about that or something? You accuse me of it, turned the thread ugly (way to go!) and failed to back up your charge.

Egh, go figure. That’s why I shrug. When you have something to bring to the table, you’ll bring it.

As Nieman hints, 1400 years of Islamic aggression against the rest of the world really ought to put to rest the idea that Mohammed’s idea of “Jihad” doesn’t necessarily involve a sword.  Sadly, it does not, and thousands die each year as a result.

dirl126 - Islam is as Islam does. And from the very beginning, from Mohammed on down, Islam has been about war, forced conversions, and destruction of unbelievers.

It’s hard to argue that they’re peaceful. The religion was born in blood and remains that way to this day.

Violence gives a gravity to Islam that makes greater its greatest asset: simplicity.  That’s why it has continued: the two propel each other forward.  Islam excuses violence, violence excuses Islam.

Its nature is as Neiman says.

Pparets: I think likwid answered your question on another page, saying

The entire northern half of Pakistan needs to be completely bombed. Everything gone.

Holy-war style and Machiavellin.  India might beat us to the punch though.

“In fighting a monster one must not become a monster.”
~Nietzsche

Excuse the apparent contradiction, I actually felt as though Nieman’s admonition was a bit over the top.

“In fighting a monster one must not become a monster.”
~Nietzsche

I think the situation in Pakistan is a little more complicated than militant Islamists versus moderates.

There is every chance that Musharraf had his grubby little hands all over this.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

UPDATE:

John Bolton just said on FOXNews that the US was partly responsible for Bhutto’s death!!

There is every chance that Musharraf had his grubby little hands all over this.

It wouldn’t surprise me.

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5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

dirl, Neiman does get a little carried away sometimes, but he’s got a heart of gold!

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Dirl: If Likwid urged the bombing of northern Pakistan, then - who’da thunk it! - he and I agree on something for a change. Osama is up there somewhere. And yes, the idea is Machiavellian: “Strike your enemy before he strikes you.” But for India to do it first raises serious issues. Pakistan would be compelled to respond in kind, thus opening the door to an all-out regional, possibly nuclear, conflict and perhaps, the beginning of WW III. Your anology, “Islam excuses violence, violence excuses Islam” is chillingly accurate. Well said!

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

We are in terrible danger and the assassination of Bhutto should remind us ALL that WE are the target, and they are coming. Now, join this blog as a member!

Agreed.  Our way of life/Democracy is the enemy of radical Islam. 

If I joined this blog, I would be subjected to constant ridicule, and that would really be no suprise around these parts, and I can take care of myself.  So why not?

John Bolton just said on FOXNews that the US was partly responsible for Bhutto’s death!!

Just went on Fox’s website for breaking news, and found nothing on this(any statement by Bolton).  If it’s true as stated(which I doubt, considering the source), it certainly gives the lie to the lefties who say Fox is biased.
It is a favorite leftie tactic to try to twist the words of known conservatives to suit their agenda.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Well, if we encouraged Bhutto’s return via diplomatic channels, we’d have some role in her death.  Given that Bolton is also a diplomat (if not exactly diplomatic at times), I’d sure want to see the context before passing judgment, though.

DRUDGE has just posted a link suggesting that Al Quida leadership in Afghanistan carried out the Bhutto assassination on the orders of Zawahiri, Bin Laden’s #2 man. Why would we be surprised? They are coming.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Just went on Fox’s website for breaking news, and found nothing on this(any statement by Bolton).  If it’s true as stated(which I doubt, considering the source),

Robert,

1) Why do you say “considering the source”?  Have I ever lied before?  What is your issue, besides a lack of a brain?

2) He was being interviewed and I saw and heard it with my own ears.  Maybe later somone will pop it on utube, or maybe somebody Tivo’d it.  Trust me, he said it.

I seriously doubt Fox News is going to repeat that, or replay that portion of the interview!

it certainly gives the lie to the lefties who say Fox is biased.

Not really, Fox can’t control what it’s guests say, they can only control what guests come on.  By selecting the type of guest they invite (Coulter, Holton) they can have expectations, but that’s about it.  I am sure nobody would predict what Bolton would say.

What it does prove is that even a Republican can say things that Liberals do, and not get into trouble for it.  Unless you are about to unleash a scathing response to Bolton’s statement.

It is a favorite leftie tactic to try to twist the words of known conservatives to suit their agenda.

Yeah, right.

Going from Memory at this stage, Bolton essentially said that by us pushing and supporting Benazir Bhutto and the ideas she represented, we made her a target.

Despite your twisting and spinning, none of the leftie MSM carried Bolton’s statement(whatever it was).  It was carried by Fox.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I’m from pakistan and I feel hatred towards the men that did this to her, and I pray to god that they suffer all their lives.

Yasmin:  Madam Bhutto was a courageous lady and her death angers all decent Americans. I hope the men who did this only suffer a brief time, by cutting their lives very short!

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

I think the men who did this, especially the suicide bomber, are going to suffer a very, very long time for what they’ve done, sad to say.  They will be “uncomfortably warm” for eternity, if you catch my drift.

Bike Bubba:  Haha! Well said and, of course dead right. “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord.”

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

Madam Bhutto was a courageous lady and her death angers all decent Americans. I hope the men who did this only suffer a brief time, by cutting their lives very short!

The asassination was clearly a murderous act by extermists and should be condemned; but let us not get carried away an paint Bhutto as some saint, she was the leader of a very corrupt government and Musharev stabilyzed that country. Of course, he is no saint either!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Neiman: No one is getting carried away here. I and Bike Bubba said that she was courageous. [She clearly understood the personal danger she faced by returning to Pakistan.] How you read those observations as elevation to sainthood is beyond me.

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

1. Anytime someone dies, it is human nature to paint them as being somehow better than we really felt they were just seconds before their death. “Well, Joe was a child molestor, but he helped me fix my heater once when I was cold, he was a great guy!”
2. The term courage carries with it the idea of someone of a superior nature being killed by someone of an inferior nature, when sometimes the bad guys are just killing each other.
3. Lastly, it was not an accusation against anyone, just a friendly warning that we should all be careful of getting carried away with our emotions.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

Nieman, you’re absolutely correct that Bhutto was not perfect.  Your point is well taken.

And pparets, please be careful about laughing about people going to Hell.  There but for the grace of God go we!

(my apologies if trying to put things delicately made it seem flippant on my part!)

Yasmin:  Madam Bhutto was a courageous lady and her death angers all decent Americans. I hope the men who did this only suffer a brief time, by cutting their lives very short!

You’re right, they deserve to suffer and then die, because what they’ve done is completely unacceptable. At least now I know someone else feels how I feel about this issue .

Robert,

Despite my spinning?  The only spinning going on around here is you spinning yourself silly.

The MSM couldn’t have carried Bolton’s message because HE APPEARED ON FOX. 

The good news is, that FOX was the one to deliver that message via Bolton.  That way, you can’t play the “Blame America First” card.  That some love to play.  Right?

Neiman: Let me say this again. I called Bhutto couageous for facing the very real possibility of death by returning home. It was said without emotion [other than outrage that an assassination once again stilled a human voice.] and with full awareness that Pakistan’s history is replete with corruption. I don’t see any real disagreement between us on this, do you?

“Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other vews.

William F. Buckley Jr.

The asassination was clearly a murderous act by extermists and should be condemned; but let us not get carried away an paint Bhutto as some saint, she was the leader of a very corrupt government and Musharev stabilyzed that country. Of course, he is no saint either!

The assassination may have been a murderous act by extremists, but yes she was a saint, because even if her country was corrupt she decided to stay and at least SAVE it, more than you can say about any other prime minster, wouldn’t you say? You sound a lot like you don’t care, do you? :S

That some love to play. Right?

That would be you lefties.  Either that or blame the President.  You guys are so predictable.  It was obviously some terrorist scum that shot her, but there you are, trying to find any shred of anything to try to blame it on this Administration and this country.  Pretty sick.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

How did Benazir Bhutto Die

That would be you lefties.

No Robert.  I meant you guys play the “blame America First” card.  Meaning, you say WE blame America first.  Dummy! 

Either that or blame the President.

I criticize him fairly and give him fair credit, I think.  Some hate him, just like some hated Clinton.  Your point?

You guys are so predictable.  It was obviously some terrorist scum that shot her, but there you are, trying to find any shred of anything to try to blame it on this Administration and this country.  Pretty sick.

DUDE…...what are you smoking.  NOBODY from the left is blaming this on the administration…at least not yet.  Bolton said it was the US, not the administration.  Why aren’t you smacking down Bolton?

Instead, you are once again debating an imaginary opponent on and imagined argument.  THAT is sick.

Bolton said it was the US, not the administration. According to you, hardly a reliable source. Why aren’t you smacking down Bolton?  I’m not; you are trying to “smack down” the US.  As far as your little dodge is concerned, according to you lefties, the US is this administration, at least when it comes to negative events.  What’s bad for America is good for you lefties.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

I don’t see any real disagreement between us on this, do you?

NO!

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

The MSM couldn’t have carried Bolton’s message because HE APPEARED ON FOX.

It was Ron Paul, not Bolton.  Hannitized has just lost any credibility he may have had.
I found the video:

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message480521/pg1

His usual isolationist BS.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

likwideshoe’

the thought of comparing our military to terrorism and the actions of terrorists was offensive.

Let’s see Bolton’s the one with the mustache.

That’s just too funny.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

It was Ron Paul, not Bolton.  Hannitized has just lost any credibility he may have had.
I found the video:

Hey Robert,

FU!  I saw John Bolton on Fox this morning.  I heard him say it with my own ears, you friggin quack. 

Seriously, I am getting tired of your juvenile responses.  YOURE AN IDIOT.

I don’t have Tivo so I can’t post it.  But don’t worry, somebody does and it will appear one day.

Anybody Tivo Fox this morning?  It played at precisely 8:48am HST.

According to you, hardly a reliable source.

Stupid.  One, where have I been proven unreliable?  What makes me “unreliable”, besides the things you imagine I say?  Fucking child.

I’m not; you are trying to “smack down” the US.  As far as your little dodge is concerned, according to you lefties, the US is this administration,

How am I smacking down the US?  By quoting Bolton?  Are you stupid?  Oh, yes you are.  But besides that, where do you come up with the idea that the US is the administration?  Seriously dude, you are a fucking looooonatic.

at least when it comes to negative events.  What’s bad for America is good for you lefties.

You are debating yourself, you idiot.  I neither hold the positions you think I do, nor have I said anything of the sort.  You are a WACKJOB!

One, where have I been proven unreliable?

You lied about John Bolton; it was Ron Paul.  That’s just the most recent example.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Robert108,

You stupid bigotted son of a bitch, they both appeared on Fox.  http://hotair.com/archives/2007/12/27/video-john-bolton-on-the-bhutto-assassination/

Hannitezed didn’t lie, you did.

Dang Hannitized.
They are just clawing to rip out your insides!

But please, don’t drop down to the level of name calling.
Everyone on SAY ANYTHING is not against you.
the typical platitudes uttered against you won’t work on you because you are an exceptional democrat.

The complaint that you made earlier that republicans never listen, or never open their minds to new democratic ideas is actually the same arguement I would have made towards democrats.
we have more in common than you think.

If you continue to be active on this page without feeling it necessary to defend yourself from petty generic accusations of the typical democrat made against you (ignore the trolls), then your input will help us find out more on that phenomenon that is the democratic party. ; D

...vice versa.

“In fighting a monster one must not become a monster.”
~Nietzsche

You stupid bigotted son of a bitch, they both appeared on Fox.

Coming from you, that’s a compliment.  You get everything backwards.(insert gay marriage joke)

Hannitezed didn’t lie, you did.

Wrong again.  I said Ron Paul blamed the US, and he did.  That’s the truth.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Here’s the commentary from Michelle Malkin about what Bolton really said:

Ambassador John Bolton makes a point that I led off with in the Paul post, namely, that we pushed too soon for democracy in Pakistan. That push led to Bhutto’s return, which in turn led to what happened to her today. That’s not blaming America so much as noting that you can’t make democracy in a microwave.

Bolton goes on to note that beyond democracy or anything else, the paramount US interest in Pakistan right now is to make sure that the nukes are secure. That need supersedes thoughts of the January 8 election. He’s right, of course. The first candidate who enlists Bolton’s open support in the primary is highly likely to get my vote.

(not)Hannitized at least spun to give a false impression, in order to bash the US.  Typical lying leftie.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

But please, don’t drop down to the level of name calling.

That’s where he started, and where he remains.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Watching the video Bolton did say that in a way the US was responsible.  And yes it was the guy with the mustache.

If I took it right, he’s saying that the US shouldn’t have been pushing for elections right away which is the opposite of what the lefties would want.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Um, he said partially responsible.  Before anyone gets their panties in a bunch listen to his explanation.

1% of Americans pay 40% of the income tax.
5% of Americans pay 60% of the income tax.
10% of Americans pay 70% of the income tax.

Lestat: YOu may disagree and get angry with Robert108, I know I have on occasion, and you may think he is ignorant, even grossly so on various matters, but he is hardly “stupid!” He is very intelligent and well read! As to his being an illegitimate male issue of a a wanton (sexually promiscuous and indiscriminate) female; why insult a woman you don’t know because her son irritates you? Surely you have a greater command of the English language that to have to attack his mother just to insult him.

In keeping silent about evil, in burying it deep within us, so that it appears nowhere on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousandfold in the future.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn. The Gulag Archipelago

The assassination may have been a murderous act by extremists, but yes she was a saint, because even if her country was corrupt she decided to stay and at least SAVE it, more than you can say about any other prime minster, wouldn’t you say? You sound a lot like you don’t care, do you? :S

Its not just a saint in a corrupt country ... she was a corrupt politician too. Twice, not once, but twice her term as Prime Minister ended amidst corruption scandals. I also think that the Western media portrayed her as the great bastion of democracy in a lawless country that she really wasnt. The “Darling of the West” compromised on many a democratic principle when negotiating a power-sharing deal with Musharraf, while he still wore his military uniform, and AFTER he took atrocious measures to stifle the independence of the Pakistani judiciary..even before he declared emergency.

Anyway, although i think she wasnt a great prime minister, i do think she was brave for returning and that her death in such a fashion is truly tragic.

Surely you have a greater command of the English language that to have to attack his mother just to insult him.

Pity the poor guy, Neiman; he is giving it all he’s got.  He is incapable of insulting me; I always consider the source.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Could it be that the person who blew himself up was different than the people who targeted her? Afterall, how can a person riding a bike among thousands target two accurate shots?

Hey Robert,

Here you go…..thanks for the memories.

Former U.N. ambassador John Bolton says U.S. intervention in Pakistani politics was a factor in the assassination of Pakistan opposition leader Benazir Bhutto.

“In part the United States is responsible for this by pushing (Pakistani President Pervez) Musharraf to try and cut a deal with Benazir Bhutto, by encouraging her to go back in the country, by trying to act like we could have a democratic election campaign in a situation with great instability,” Bolton told the Fox News Channel this afternoon.

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/bolton_bhutto_/2007/12/27/60154.html

Looking forward to your apology!

It is a sad incident, but forgive me for sounding insensitive, it was very much expected. Many of us living in the region, unfortunately, have become accustomed to frequent terrorist attacks, and threats from extremism have become a part of our routine.

It’s only recently, that the international community is slowly acknowledging these attacks and condemning them. Until now, many western countries have been turning a blind eye towards such incidents as they never directly threatened their interests.

So far, whenever we (India) has appealed to the west to help constrain terrorism in the region (esp pakistan)..all we’ve been told is to “maintain peace” -i.e refrain from taking any action.

All said and done, let’s hope these recent incidents spark a revolution and a genuine commitment to end terrorism. No more double standards…no more preaching..just results. Amen.

non-Hannitized: I watched the entire interview, and the part you cherry-picked(and mischaracterized) took up two sentences.  No apology.  You were intentionally misleading for the purposes of bashing my country and my Chief Executive(who is in charge of foreign policy).  At best, Bolton fleetingly referred to a very tenuous connection, consisting of saying our foreign policy was “a factor” in her being there, which is hardly a cause and effect relationship, unlike the false impression you tried to create.  Even your screen name is a lie.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

And, as I said before, you hate-filled lefties can’t wait to try to spin something said in passing by a conservative into something with which you can bash our country.

What’s bad for America is good for the lefties.  You guys want the economy to crash, you want us to lose to the terrorists, and you want to continually bash the US.  Shame on you!
I was right; it was Ron Paul who really bashed the US over the Bhutto assassination.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

And furthermore, shame on you for trying to use this woman’s tragic death at the hands of terrorist scum to try to bash the US.  You are the lowest.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Lestat: YOu may disagree and get angry with Robert108, I know I have on occasion, and you may think he is ignorant, even grossly so on various matters, but he is hardly “stupid!” He is very intelligent and well read! As to his being an illegitimate male issue of a a wanton (sexually promiscuous and indiscriminate) female; why insult a woman you don’t know because her son irritates you? Surely you have a greater command of the English language that to have to attack his mother just to insult him.

Outside of his parroting the party line, I have no proof of his being intelligent, in fact I dispute it.  As far as his parentaqe. I apologize to all the female dogs in the world.

Lestat: You are the epitome of a hate-filled leftie.  I enjoy making you explode into your fits of impotent profanity.

If govt control of the economy were the way to go, the Soviet Union would be the richest, most powerful nation in the history of the world.

Thanks to Obama, America remains the only country where it is illegal to drill our own oil!

Heard a British Muslim on the BBC radio spouting some rubbish about the CIA being involved in Bhutto’s death. The next call was by a British Muslim holidaying in Lahore who could not speak english! His wife in London had to translate his comments. The left wing media in Europe will offer a platform to any idiot who is anti American. This is just to let our brothers across the pond know that the silent majority in Britian stand by America.