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Thursday, March 30, 2006

Being The Grown Ups

It is not easy being conservative these days.

For the last several decades Americans have gotten used to the idea of the government taking care of them. We've come to expect it to be there for us with subsidized loans when we're paying for our education or buying our first homes, and we've come to expect it to be there for us in our declining years with tax-funded medical care, prescription drugs and payments from Social Security. Even as you read this there is a movement among some Americans for a government-subsidized health care system for all citizens, or at least laws aimed at requiring private employers to provide a minimum of health insurance coverage.

America has, unfortunately, become a place where people don't just expect cradle-to-grave entitlements, but demand them.

As a conservative I am against this sort of big-government, nanny-state mentality. I reject the idea that the government is here to take care of us because I see the government's chief responsibility as nothing more than creating an economic and social environment where citizens are as free as possible to take care of themselves. Yet that is a hard position to have in this era where people are more worried about what their country can do for them rather than what they can do on their own.

The Democrats have recognized this and seem to have based their entire domestic policy on one simple promise made to the public (though not, obviously, in these words):

We'll make the government give you things.

Lately even so-called conservative politicians have fallen into this trap, which has caused many of our elections to dissolve into bidding wars, with each side attempting to one-up the other by promising to use their elected power to vote more goodies out of the national treasury than the other side will.

It is difficult to blame these conservatives, though as it is a hard trap to avoid. When we conservatives talk about wanting to cut back on spending for something like higher education the leftists respond by telling us that we want kids to stay stupid. If we say that we believe Medicaid spending is out of control we are told that we do not care about the poor and the sick. It is, to paraphrase the French economist Frederic Bastiat, as though because we don't think the government should raise grain the leftists think we do not want people to eat.

How can conservatives compete with this kind of rhetoric? It is not an easy thing to explain to the public that you do care about the disadvantaged, but that you think the best way to care for them is to keep as much money in America's free market as possible rather than confiscating it with taxes for redistribution through inefficient and ineffective government programs. It is an especially hard argument to make when your opponents are chanting variations of simple slogans like “The Republicans hate the poor” or “Tax cuts for the rich.”

So what do we conservatives do?

The situation reminds me of my role as a parent to my daughter. She is little, and often she wants things she cannot have. Like a drink from my soda before bed. Or some candy right before we eat supper. Or to stay up late with me watching old Alfred Hitchcock reruns. She cannot have these things because they are not good for her. Soda before bed means that she won't go to bed at all. Sweets before dinner will mean that she won't eat the food prepared for her. Staying up all night with her dad – as much as I may want her to stay up with me – will mean crankiness and petulance the next morning.

I deny her these things because I know it is good for her that I do so. Yet still she cries and puts on a show as only five-year-olds can. She tells me that I don't like her. She tells me that I never let her do anything fun, yet I persist because I am a good parent. I know better than she does, and I know that the decisions I make for her now will be better for her in the long run.

This is how conservatives must be. Rather than giving in to the chorus of demands from leftists who only want to get their hands in the “cookie jar” we must stand firm. When they childishly accuse us of hating the poor or favoring the rich we must remember that we know better.

That government entitlements encourage dependence rather than independence.

President Bush said in a recent television interview with ABC's Elizabeth Vargas that if he worried about polls he “wouldn't be doing his job.” He went on to say he believes the American people want someone who will “stand on principle.” I think he's exactly right.

With the so-called “Republican Revolution” in the mid-1990's Americans swept into office a class of conservative leaders who were supposedly dedicated to things like tax cuts, reform and limited government. Many of those conservatives are still in power today, yet it seems like much of the progress toward limited government has been stalled by the “you hate the poor” rhetoric I just described. Many of our leaders have backed down and tried to pander to voters rather than sticking to the ideals which got them voted into office.

That is a mistake, and one of the big reasons why so many Americans are disillusioned with current GOP leadership. The left would have us believe that Americans are turning to their way of thinking, but that's wrong. Americans are frustrated with leaders that haven't acted like the conservatives they elected.

We conservatives must be the “grown-ups.” Let the left thrash about and accuse us of hating whatever demographic they're championing at the moment. We know what is right.

Now we just need to do it.

This column originally appeared in the March 2006 edition of The Dakota Beacon. If you're not a subscriber, you should be.

Comments

President Bush said in a recent television interview with ABC’s Elizabeth Vargas that if he worried about polls he “wouldn’t be doing his job.” He went on to say he believes the American people want someone who will “stand on principle.” I think he’s exactly right.

He does worry about polls, and he doesn’t stand on principle.

Prescription drug benefit was all about locking up the senior voting bloc; by enacting it he certainly was not adhereing to any conservative principle.

He’s as poll-driven as any other pol.

That government entitlements encourage dependence rather than independence.

In a civilized society, there must be a safety-net.

If you were walking down the street, and some uninsured a-hole knocked you over with his car, resulting in your being a quadraplegic - and you had no employer-sponsored healthcare, and there was no Medicare - what would you do? Lie there and curse your luck, but be a true conservative and resign yourself to your fate?

Get real. 

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 06:08 am
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He’s as poll-driven as any other pol.

Mcair, the prescription drugs plan was something the President campaigned on.  Was it calculated political pandering?  Probably, but that wasn’t my point.  My point was that if the President says he is going to do something...he usually does it regardless of what the polls say.  Harriet Miers is the only place where I can think of him backing down due to public outcry.  But that’s just the exception that proves the rule.  Bush sticks to his guns, even partisans like you should be able to admit that.

If you were walking down the street, and some uninsured a-hole knocked you over with his car, resulting in your being a quadraplegic - and you had no employer-sponsored healthcare, and there was no Medicare - what would you do?

You live up to the liberals I described in my post.  I say that I am against government entitlements, you turn around and accuse me of not wanting to help out the truly needy and disabled.

I am not opposed to safetynets for those who truly cannot help themselves.  I am against safetynets that allow Americans to live off the tax dollars of their hard-working fellow citizens.  That is the line I draw. 


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on March 30, 2006 at 06:21 am
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So you are blaming the Democrats because you’re party can’t think up a winning argument?

realitybasedbob on March 30, 2006 at 06:25 am
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Rob- I’m with you on this, and more.

mcair-- You do not know how a person reacts to polls.  It certainly appears that President Bush does not, just from his policy on GWOT.

As for the example of the driver who is uninsured, he would not be driving legally in our state.  It is against the law to drive without proper insurance.  You must show your driver’s license and proof of insurance when stopped.  A person can purchase "un and underinsured" auto insurance.  I have it because I know there are people out there who expect ‘government’ to cover up all their mistakes.  They should be in jail for driving without a license.  It is a privilege, not a right.

I consider myself a free person.  I have written on this numerous times.  If a person is free to choose, they also choose the consequences whether good or bad.

Chief RZ on March 30, 2006 at 06:29 am

You live up to the liberals I described in my post.  I say that I am against government entitlements, you turn around and accuse me of not wanting to help out the truly needy and disabled.

I am fiscal conservative/social liberal. I haven’t accused you of anything - yet. Simply want to understand what’s left after you have eviscerated government, that’s all.

I am not opposed to safetynets for those who truly cannot help themselves.  I am against safetynets that allow Americans to live off the tax dollars of their hard-working fellow citizens.  That is the line I draw. 

Explain what your version of safety-net looks like, and how it is funded and administered. I have never proposed that anyone should be entitled to "live off the tax dollars of their hard-working fellow citizens", and if you paid attention, you’d see that no mainstream Democrat is proposing that either.

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 06:43 am

Chief- You do not know how a person reacts to polls.  It certainly appears that President Bush does not, just from his policy on GWOT.

Rob proposed that the President is not poll-driven. I showed him an example of where he and his party most-certainly are poll-driven. A couple mroe examples:

Remember last year’s failed attempt to reform Social Security? A key piece of language was "Private Accounts". That was later changed to "Personal Accounts" when it was found that "private" didn’t poll well. Semantics aside, the President was bending to poll data.

The gay-marriage issue. Why is it on the ballot? Polls show it brings   out the conservative base on election day. Defense of Marriage act? Same thing. Terry Schiavo? Same thing. Over and over, these calculated moves are poll-tested to appeal to the conservative voter.

Regardign my example of the need for a safety-net: I think you missed my point: regardless of whether the driver has broken the law, if he is uninsured or indigent you would not be able to recover sufficient damages to pay for healthcare. That’s where the safety-net comes in - it’ an insurance program designed to be used when all else fails.

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 06:51 am
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mcair-  Thanks for the exchange.  Again, I was talking about The President, Mr. Bush, not a party, or planners.  Compare President Bush’s strong, solid stand on the War vs. Preident Johnson’s micro-managing of the War in Vietnam.  Your other examples are certainly proposals, which are different than ongoing operations against terrorism.  Proposals change, are compromised, dropped, brought up again later and amended even on the floor of congress.  The President can veto or not legislation.  That is his power.  Congress can override his veto. 

On the irresponsible car driver--Are you talking about his problem or the person he injured.  If the latter, I have already described the solution.  If his, that is his problem, not mine.  Same answer for a motorcycle rider who insists on riding without a helmet.  We have that option in our state.  He pays for his own injuries if injured by his own choice.  What is not to understand?

Chief RZ on March 30, 2006 at 07:02 am

Chief: I’m looking for a proposal for what you would do about the victim of the accident - one who had no other healthcare options. 

Compare President Bush’s strong, solid stand on the War

Strong? Solid? I think "stubborn", "unwilling to admit mistakes", "poor judgement" are more accurate.

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 07:50 am
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mcair-  Sorry for the delay.  Simple.  Nothing from taxpayers.  A person who engages in risky behavior without insurance also takes the associated consequences.  A homosexual who contacts AIDS knows that there is no cure.  Remember the California R-representative who was killed snow skiing?  One proposal:  put "pillows" on all trees!  Ban snow skiing!  How about this one--  The Truth:  About 20 years ago a yugo driver was blown off the Mackinaw Bridge joining upper and lower Michigan.  For the next five or so years, 18 wheeler trucks were required to escort "small cars" across the bridge.  This over-reaction has been stopped.  The answer is that no one, no government policy can prevent death or injury.  That person is personally responsible for their own actions.  What would I do?  Help the person-give first aid (I have a certified Red Cross first aid certificate).  That is what I would do.   What would you do?  Would you give blood?

http://magyartruth.blogspot.com/2006/01/9-contributions.html 

Chief RZ on March 30, 2006 at 09:30 am

The Truth:  About 20 years ago a yugo driver was blown off the Mackinaw Bridge joining upper and lower Michigan.  For the next five or so years, 18 wheeler trucks were required to escort "small cars" across the bridge. 

I live in Michigan and have driven over the Mighty Mac many times. I am familiar with the Yugo story, but never heard of 18-wheeler escort. Following that incident, the bridge is now closed in winds of 65mph or more - which makes sense.

Back to my anecdote - a person walking down the street minding their own business should not have to carry insurance for the act of walking The question is, how would you provide for the injured walker’s long-term care? Or would you not consider that necessary? How about if you were the walker?

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 12:05 pm
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Vacationed on Mackinac Island last summer, very nice.  The bridge doesn’t look five miles long.

modern instances on March 30, 2006 at 12:07 pm
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Daddy never invaded a country for no good reason.

modern instances on March 30, 2006 at 12:14 pm
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Gotta say rob is right President Bush stays his course no matter what however, I am not so sure that is a strength 

richard on March 30, 2006 at 12:18 pm

It is certainly a strength to stick by ones convictions.  It is honorable to be able to realize when you are wrong and change your stance. 

Dave W on March 30, 2006 at 03:43 pm
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Harriet Miers is the only place where I can think of him backing down due to public outcry.

Social Security reform?

Dave on March 30, 2006 at 03:46 pm
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mcair-   Glad we have some common knowledge.  It enhances honest exchanges of ideas.  i hadn’t heard about the wind restriction.  In Europe, they just post a warning sign [caution--wind danger].  On the walker question:  Good scenario.  I will answer in several ways.First, a person can be injured in many ways.  Some no fault, some fault, and some by an act of God.  Why is it that certain people are always looking to find fault and go after money?  Greed.  Second, a person can and usually does have insurance.  In your scenario, they don’t I guess.Third, the uninsured, felon, illegal alien, whatever who is irresponsible and has no money should be prevented from driving.  a. by not being allowed in this country.  b.  by not being issued a license.  c.  if he enters a car, immediately, he should be pulled over and put in jail.Now, I will allow even further problems.  Let’s make this irresponsible felon just another walker!  He runs into this innocent person and permanently injures him.  Thinking.... He goes to jail for assault and battery.  Most states have victim’s accounts.  Hopefully he has a job, he files for Social Security disability and goes on with his life!   We already have a "safety net" for him!!  In addition, I believe that SS provides for vocational rehabilitation.  If SS I  II  can provide "crazy money" for fools in schools, surely they can for an innocent person walking down the sidewalk.   Is this sufficient? 

Chief RZ on March 30, 2006 at 04:29 pm
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"Social Security reform?"

Nah!  I don’t think so.  There was no public outcry against Social Security reform.  There was a lot of yammering and noise from congressional Democrats against his voluntary privatization proposal, but the Dems never offered any soft of counter proposal of their own, and in fact, never took up the President’s offer to sit down and just discuss the situation.  Despite the fact that both Clinton (’96) and AlGore (’00) had campaigned strenuously on the issue. 

Bat One on March 30, 2006 at 04:47 pm

There was a lot of yammering and noise from congressional Democrats against his voluntary privatization proposal,

Because his proposal would have required a $1 Trillion kickstart, and uh he’s already bankrupted the trust fund. 

 but the Dems never offered any soft of counter proposal of their own,

Eliminate the cap in FICA. Done.

mcair on March 30, 2006 at 04:53 pm
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Mr. Bush has another quality to his credit which is rarely remarked on.  During his 3 years at Harvard he was generally acknowledged to be just about the best poker player on campus.  His history of encouraging his political foes to "mis-underestimate" him proves the point.  No one thought he’d beat "Ma" Richards, twice.  It should have been a warning and a lesson.  It wasn’t.

Bat One on March 30, 2006 at 04:54 pm
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mcair: Not reforming us will eventually cost around 10 trillion, so figure it out.  What you propose is actually a tax increase, and isn’t the answer.  The money has to be invested to pay for SS.  Period.

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 05:13 pm
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I meant "Not reforming SS..."

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 05:13 pm
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"… and uh he’s already bankrupted the trust fund."

The so-called "Trust Fund" has been out of money since 1969, thanks to LBJ, the Democratic Congress, and the Unified Budget.

The "bankruptcy" to which you refer comes in about a decade when the annual FICA collections are exceeded by payouts.  At present, FICA tax collections exceed payouts , but the so-called surplus is spent as part of the federal government’s General Fund, in exchange for below market IOU’s issued to Social Security by the US Treasury… a practice that has been in place since the Johnson administration.

Social Security is, in essence and in fact, the mother of all Ponzi schemes.  And from a fiscal and accounting perspective, one more reason oppose thsoe 45 to 50 million abortions performed under the aegis of Roe, and one more reason to institute some sort of meaningful immigration reform, with, sadly, a strict guest worker program. 

As usual, the Demoocrats’ response is to raise taxes, but even removing the FICA cap altogether will only delay the inevitable day of fiscal reckoning for a short few years.  Reducing the rate of growth of the pie, the Dem’s proverbial answer to everything, does not increse the size of the individual slices.  A point still lost on the arithmetically-challenged Left.

Bat One on March 30, 2006 at 05:15 pm
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Bat One,  Thanks, glad some others remember the 1964-68 Democratic grab of our SS Trust Fund to fund the war on poverty.  I wonder what the "exit strategy" is/was for that one?  They are social-democrats.  Tearing down those who work, watching others work, using OPM (other people’s money) for pet projects and lining their own pockets.  Ever read how much money Johnson made ?  Millions.  back then.

Chief RZ on March 30, 2006 at 05:50 pm
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Not a sinlge word or sentence about corporate subsidies or their entitlements. Not a single word.  When will you be the grown ups about companies reincorpating overseas for tax breaks and still seek the protection of the United States.  If a company wants to reincorporate in the Bahamas, then they should seek the help of the Bahamian armed forces when they get in trouble overseas. 

So let’s have a thread on corporate welfare and the subsidies and entitlements for corporations, then you can really show us who’s grown up.

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 06:34 pm
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Well, I didn’t really talk about specifics in the post Puzzle...sheesh.  I can almost see the vein throbbing in your head from here.

As you know, I am for free markets.  Much more than you are.  What I named in the post were a couple of examples of what I felt were the most eggregious examples of government entitlement.  And, of course, I’m right.  The government spends much more of our money on social entitlements than business entitlements.  Thus, they are the bigger problems.

Business entitlements go ignored because, frankly, they are dwarfed by spending on social entitlements.  I don’t talk about them because I am not anti-business like you are and I have my priorities in order. 


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on March 30, 2006 at 06:39 pm
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But the examples you gave Rob, not one had anything to do work corporate entitlements.  I am not anti-business, I worked in my father’s business for years and still help out when I am in my hometown, but he didn’t ask for any corporate handouts.  He built his business on his own. Being anti-corporate welfare is not anti-business. 

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 06:49 pm
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But the examples you gave Rob, not one had anything to do work corporate entitlements.

Well I wasn’t making an exhaustive list.  I mentioned the ones I felt were more pressing.

I am not anti-business, I worked in my father’s business for years and still help out when I am in my hometown, but he didn’t ask for any corporate handouts.  He built his business on his own. Being anti-corporate welfare is not anti-business.

Fair enough, but when you come out swinging because I mentioned social entitlements rather than business entitlements (coupled with your union views) it very much gives the impression that you’re anti-business. 


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on March 30, 2006 at 07:03 pm
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P: I have a suggestion: Get rid of all entitlements.  It is possible that business entitlements have been made "necessary" by the distortions introduced into the labor market by unions and social entitlements. Therefore, getting rid of the social entitlements might make the business entitlements unnecessary.

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 07:15 pm
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Rob, I think it is fair to point out that the emphasis is on individual "welfare" and nothing is said about corporate welfare where Fortune 500 companies get subsidies when they hardly need it.  Rob,you titled the article  "Being the Grownup" but then only refer to individual entitlements.  I, then responded using the title of the thread to make a point about corporate entitlements and the lack there of in the article.  I think it is fair to point out that very little is written on Say Anything about corporate entitlements and when I actually write about them, then I am labelled as "anti-business".  That was my point.

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 07:15 pm
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Oh and Rob, I don’t know how you can call me anti-business.  I go out of my way to buy American products made by American companies and  keep spending my money at local businesses, small businesses, even if I have to pay a bit more.  I am a tag reader buying most of my clothes Made in America to support workers here in our own country.  I purchase TVs made in America, my car is mostly made in America, I checked the VIN number to make sure it was.  My dishes are Fista ware, made in the USA.  I have a membership to Costco, where they pay wages and full benefits to their workers, and No I don’t shop at Wal-Mart.  So I can hardly be called Anti-business.  I wonder if others on this blog can say the same. 

Puzzlefeet on March 30, 2006 at 07:20 pm
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P: The definition of "fair" depends on who is saying it.  It is totally subjective.  I think it is fair to have a blog named "Say Anything" where all points of view get expressed, and anyone who can string words together can post.  If you want to go off about what you call "corporate welfare" then write your own article rather than whining to Rob that he isn’t being "fair" because he doesn’t speak up for your point of view.  You embody the entitlement mentality in that last post.

robert108 on March 30, 2006 at 07:21 pm
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I gotta agree with Robert, Puzzle.  I’m not sure what you want me to do.  2/3’s of the federal budget is spent on social entitlement.  That dwarfs the amount spent on business subsidies.  It is like you want me to complain about the poor paint job on a burning house.

go out of my way to buy American products made by American companies and  keep spending my money at local businesses, small businesses, even if I have to pay a bit more.

Well, this sort of makes you anti-free market.  People who do this sort of thing prop up businesses that charge higher prices.   I shop where I can get the items I want at the cheapest prices.  This helps keep prices low and competition thriving.

But this isn’t really what I was talking about.  You’re a union person, so you see business as the enemy.  You’ve all but said as much on other threads.  I am the opposite of you.  I see businesses as the people (because at the end of the day businesses are just organized people) who give the rest of us jobs.  When we attack business, as you and your union cohorts routinely do, we attack the American economy...the very thing which makes us strong.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on March 30, 2006 at 07:50 pm
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PF,

Is it possible for you to just make your point, however poorly, and then be done with it?  This incessant patting yourself on the back for all of your noble intentions and selfless good deeds is getting a bit tiresome.  Beside, much more and you’ll likely blow out a rotator cuff… leaving McAir to do all the leftwing heavy lifting around here.  Sounds pretty damn selfish to me. 

Bat One on March 30, 2006 at 07:56 pm
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Not likely Batone, the arms and shoulders work quite well.  I just want to make sure that time and discussion is also given to corporate welfare as well. Batone, Rob accused me of being anti-business and I wrote that I can hardly be antibusiness because..... and wrote the above post.  Perhaps if more of you were more noble and did "selfless deeds" our country would be in a better position.  Ooo.... can’t wait for the response on that one.

Puzzlefeet on March 31, 2006 at 02:46 am
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I say again, P, write your own article about your favorite subject.  You are not entitled to have us support your position at all.  I assume we are all adults here.  You define what selfless deeds are, so you go ahead and do what it is you believe in.  We don’t need your judgments, ill-founded as they are.  BTW, our country could hardly be in a better position.  We are at the top of the heap, which is why all the other countries are envious of us.  Figure it out.  As far as I know, Canada doesn’t have an illegal immigrant problem.

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 09:09 am
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Rob:

I see businesses as the people (because at the end of the day businesses are just organized people) who give the rest of us jobs.  When we attack business, as you and your union cohorts routinely do, we attack the American economy...the very thing which makes us strong.

There must be a line somewhere though, right? I’m sure that you, as a consumer, wouldn’t go to a company that made its products through, say, slave labor, right? You wouldn’t support a company who was in favor of legalized pedophilia, correct?

I disagree with PF’s feelings about Wal-mart (for example), which is why I shop at that store. But his bigger point--that consumers should make decisions based on the ethics of individual companies--seems solid and pro-capitalist to me. It’s the only way we can enact change in a capitalist market, and it’s the best way to enact that type of change. The American slave trade would have ended far more peacefully if only enough Americans had decided to boycott southern cotton. You’re just voting with your wallet.

Dave on March 31, 2006 at 10:28 am
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Dave:  Your strawman arguments about slave labor and pedophilia are ridiculous to the extreme.  The fact is, free people get to choose;  they may not follow your values, and they are entitled to ignore your values entirely, which is why it’s called "free enterprise".  "...consumers should..."  reveals your socialist mentality.  You want to impose your values on the rest of us.  That is not "pro-capitalist", it’s socialist.  It is trying to use the economic system to impose social standards on everyone.  If you favor freedom, the way to "enact change" in a free market is to make a better product at a better price.  Period.  Slavery ended in the US before almost anywhere else in the world.  It still exists in Africa and Asia.  Get real.

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 12:30 pm
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BTW:  "voting with your wallet" is the essence of free people making free choices.  You are free to make your own choices by any standards you choose, but keep your socialist hands off my wallet!

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 12:32 pm
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You want to impose your values on the rest of us. 

Absolutely not. That’s a ridiculous distortion, and you will not find any evidence that it is true. You’re a liar. Please apologize and correct your mistakes.

 If you favor freedom, the way to "enact change" in a free market is to make a better product at a better price.  Period. 

Or, you can boycott. You do support people’s right to boycott, yes?

Dave on March 31, 2006 at 12:56 pm
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PF,

Are you rally that easily confused?  If so, you have no business trying to mix it up with the grown ups (Nice seque back to the title!)

No one criticized you for whatever noble intentions you may possess or good deeds you may do.  That’s no one else’s concern (a nice way of saying "so what!"wink.  The criticism was over your smarmy self-congratulation over those deeds and intentions.  That public "patting yourself on the back" I referred to.

To suggest that I, or anyone else, should behave more "nobly" or do more "selfless" deeds, betrays not only the fact that you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about, but your pharasaical presumptuousness as well.  For all you know, I could be the meanest S.O.B. east of the Rockies, or a cross between John Bareford Tipton and Dudley Doright.  So there is more than a little unwarranted arrogance in your suggesting a more acceptable line of behavior.

If you wish to cricize the thoughts I’ve expressed go right ahead.  That’s part of what we’re here for.  But please restrict yourself to areas where there is some empirical evidence to support what you say.  That appears to be more than sufficiently challenging.  And we really don’t need one more self-righteous donkey braying about the "public good" or what sacrifices we all must make in each others’ collective favor.   

Bat One on March 31, 2006 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for robert108

You wrote:  "...consumers should..."  Saying that is imposing your values on others.  You lie if you deny that.  If you had said "...consumers can choose to, if they want...", it would be different, but you said what you said.  I do not apologize for telling the truth.

Where can I find "the right to boycott"?  Is it in the constitution?  You used the word "should" which means that to you, it isn’t a right, it’s a requirement.  Boycotting is a type of intimidation.  Simply choosing not to buy something is not boycotting;  that is a collective function.  I’m not a collectivist.  I support individual independence. 

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 06:30 pm
Avatar for Dave

You wrote:  "...consumers should..."  Saying that is imposing your values on others.

No. Writing: "...we should force consumers to make decisions based on the ethics of individual companies..." is imposing my values on others. What I did was offer advice. If I say "you should quit smoking" have I imposed my values on you? You’re so touchy it’s funny.

Where can I find "the right to boycott"?  Is it in the constitution?

Yes, the ninth amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Dave on March 31, 2006 at 06:59 pm
Avatar for robert108

So you can just make up any "right" you want to?  You have no such right.  What you do have is a right to make your own decisions about what to buy or not to buy.  Why isn’t that enough for you?  Saying "can" is advice;  saying "should" is being self-righteous and attempting to impose your values on others due to your assumption of moral superiority.  God Knows you have done that enough on this blog. 

The "right to boycott" does not appear in the Constitution.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 07:12 pm
Avatar for Dave

The "right to boycott" does not appear in the Constitution.  Thanks for clearing that up. 

Nor does the "right to breathe." You cannot be this dense.

Dave on March 31, 2006 at 07:56 pm
Avatar for robert108

Now you’re being ridiculous.  We don’t need a Constitution for that one.  You disgrace yourself with that stuff.

Why isn’t the right to buy or not buy whatever you choose not enough for you? 

robert108 on March 31, 2006 at 08:15 pm
Avatar for John

The ninth amendment implies that the Constitution doesn’t say there is not a right to boycott.  It’s wrong to say that the ninth amendment guarantees the right to boycott.  After all, many kinds of boycott are illegal. 

The kind of boycott that I suspect robert108 is thinking of is illegal.  You cannot use a boycott to coerse an organization into joining your primary boycott.  It is prohibited both by the Taft-Hartley Act (1947) and the Landrum-Griffin Act (1959).

The kind of boycott that Davey is thinking of is legal, at least for the time being.

That Congress may constitutionally legislate against collective boycott, however, leads me to believe that saying Americans have a right to boycott as guaranteed by the ninth amendment is wrong.

John on March 31, 2006 at 11:10 pm
Avatar for John

You know, as long as we’re picking at straws here.

John on March 31, 2006 at 11:15 pm
Avatar for robert108

I’m not thinking about any particular kind of boycott.  The entire concept goes beyond individual action into some sort of collective action.  Buying one product rather than another is simply free people making free choices;  boycotting implies intimidation through collective action, and has nothing to do with the particular virtues or lack of same attributed to any product.  It is a political statement, done to accomplish a political end.  Dave used the example of ending slavery by boycotting southern cotton.  I think he was pretty clear on that one.  It had nothing to do with the cotton itself.  It’s indirect action, which seems cowardly to me.  It’s using the economic system to engineer society. Why not work against slavery directly?  Of course, that wouldn’t be socialism.

robert108 on April 1, 2006 at 01:02 am
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