Say Anything Blog

Unchecked power does, indeed corrupt. IA units are apparently not doing their jobs. Maybe they should have civilian oversight?

We ask people to fight our wars and defend our communities, we place them in an environment of violence and death and then expect them to not get their adrenaline pumping, feel surges of testosterone and begin treating everyone like the enemy. When we hire such people and train them properly and send them on the streets or the front lines, we need to make sure the rules are clear, they get frequent evaluations and re-training and when they cross the line, absent serious injury or death of others, we should not hang them out to dry and wash our hands of them.

In both cases we need to look at all the circumstances, allow some time to pass for less emotional judgments and apply appropriate and proportional remedies. We should never cover these incidents up, but use them as training tools to prevent reoccurences.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman.  I’m with you.  No one should criticize actions unless they have been in their shoes.  Try substitute teaching for just one day.  And that is supposed to be a “safe” job!

Communism is evil

Police should be held to the same, if not higher standards as the civilians they arrest. If they can’t control their behavior out there, they are a menace to us all and destroy our trust. Is this an officer you would like your child to approach if they were lost? Any one else behaving in the same manner, even in self-defense, would have all kinds of assault and battery charges lodged against them for overreacting to a percieved threat. All the guy did was raise his head to look around and see what was going on! Some threat. I would think twice before I called the police down there. When paranoia rules, innocent people die. A higher standard of behavior is essential if we are to be able to trust our law officers, rather than fear them as criminals themselves. Their leaders are sadly lacking.

Chief RZ,what would happed to you if you restrained a student because you thought he might strike you? Not stompted on his head, just restrained by force.

Sorry, just realized that it is almost 1;00 am there and not yet 9 here. Guess you folks want to go to bed.

Chief RZ; Early in my life, about a hundred or so years ago, as a Marine I was baptized into adulthood in the rice fields of Vietnam, after getting out, before I decided what I wanted to be when I grew up, I spent three years as a police officer and a couple more in an extreme rescue service. So, I have had to deal with being shot at, stabbed and in general treated rudely by others, so I can bring that knowledge to such a situation and extend a bit more understanding than many.

Margie: You are a nice lady, but I suspect a liberal minded one. First there are a few (comparatively) bad police officers, brutal thugs, cheap bullies with a badge and a gun, and when they are caught crossing the line they need to be fired and/or prosecuted. On the other hand, all of these people are literally on the firing line, they are targets for every punk and malcontent in the world, even risking their lives in domestic disturbances. In such cases it is much easier than you might imagine to overreact and even cross the line with phsyical aggression. That does not make them criminals, or bad police officers or fodder for the liberal political cannon shooters. Unless serious bodly injury or death occurs and depending on a lot of ‘ifs,’ chances are these people can be reprimanded and retrained and never cross the line again, if guilty - which is another big if.

Yes, these people are trusted with guns and authority and they need to follow strict guidelines. But, they are human beings, they make mistakes, they can overreact and still not be viewed and treated like criminals. Give this case some time and I’ll wager the facts are a bit different than were reported.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Margie: It is only 6:04 PM where I am living!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman, I do understand the extreme danger police face every day and I also know how underpaid and unappreciated they are. I am also not dumb enough to think that I would never overreact under a fearful, stressful situation. This did not appear to be a stressful situation, just an example of police burtality toward someone already on the ground an helpless to harm anyone. They did it because they could and they could expect the support of thier fellow officers who usually close in to protect their own. I would be all for second chances for an officer who made a mistake under fire or in a tense situation. This doesn’t look like such a one. However, you are right. If there is such a thing as an objective investigative panel, we should wait for their conclusions. The payout almost says it all, thogh, doesn’t it?

I thought I was about as far East as you can get here in Virginia. Are you on the continent?

I feel kind of sorry for the policemen in this story!…

You feel sorry for bullies with a gun and life or death power over you out there on the street?  Quaint--

Margie, I know I probably shouldn’t. BUT I knew a couple of cops in Miami, once upon a time and they had such tough jobs… I agree the police need to be more careful.

Margie: I’m the other direction. In Europe it’s about 1:00 am tomorrow, out here it is almost 6:30 PM.

I would agree the payout usually says a lot, except in our litigious nation there is a tendency to just settle at a more reasonable price that pay more by going to court. Whether it’s a doctor or policeman or others, to settle versus going to court may save money, but it does little to bring about justice for either side.

By the way, I don’t disagree that there is always some circling the wagons in such situations, its human nature.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It is sad and a waste of resources when a policeman loses it and betrays the people he has sworn to protect in a moment of anger. I feel sorry for the loss of their bright promise when they put that uniform on then broke the law themselves.  The good ones, who just lost it under stress are to be pitied. They are probably harder on themselves than we are. But the ones who misuse their power over people and enjoy hurting people,deserve a special cell with Bubba.

I agree...! Margie, It looks like you are eating sweet & sour chicken out of a can??? What is that?

Actually, it is ravioli. I rode with my husband for 2years in a tractor-trailor and we could not always stop to eat under a tight delivery schedule. This was revenge for all the candids I took of him. My eyes are daring him to push that button. We were not usually that uncivilized, but were out of paper plates that day.

Margie: The problem is that except for a very few cases, these situations are not always clear cut and easy to judge. Like the infamous Rodney King case: He was suspected, by his behavior, of being high on methamphetamines, in his flight to avoid arrest he placed the lives of these officers at risk several times and, if we can believe the news reports he was physically violent when captured. The police commission said that these officers, did not exceed the departments regulations in any manner. Yet, a cop hating segment of the public would not let it go and these officers were tried and exonerated and then tried again and convicted. What was the truth? If in the heat of the moment after a long chase and a physical altercation the officers hit or kicked him and yet did not violate department policy, were they guilty of misuse of their power or not?

But, because these people, police or soldiers, risk their lives for us, we should always give them the benefit of the doubt until all (enough) the evidence is in; and mostly, we should not tar every potential police abuse case with the same brush until enough time has passed for a bit of clarity.

Lastly, your sentiments about a betrayal of trust extends to judges, politicians or anyone earning a living under a badge of trust!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Margie: I emailed Rob several times and never got a response from him. I went to the profile tab and downloaded a picture for my posts, but I don’t know how to get it attached to my post. How did you do it?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I have ridden on tractors before out at the farm. I have never heard it called a tractor trailer? Is a tractor trailer like a combine?

Yes, they do. But those people aren’t likely to shoot me or hit me if they don’t like my attitude. Maybe departmental policy needs to be tightened up with the welfare of the public in mind.

Your oppinion on something else, please:
Here in Va., a policeman was sitting in his squad car when he heard of a hot pursuit on his radio. Though other, closer officers were already joining in, he decided to do so as well. Without either lights or sirens, he pulled onto the roadway, increased speed, lost control and died in a crash. The person being pursued was charged with his death. I think this is just wrong! He made a mistake in judgement or lacked driving skill, who will ever know? But his death was caused by himself and no one else. I know it the norm these days to blame everything on the perpetrator, from the decision to persue to any results, but that does not make it right in my opinion. Shouldn’t the police take responsibility for their own mistakes and bad judgement instead of looking for some one to punish?

Zsa Zsa: Just in case Margie doesn’t get back to either of us very soon: A tractor is the cab where the driver and passenger sit, engine, drive train and hitch (truck); and then 1-3 trailers can be attached at the end and then the stuff inside hauled down the highway to where its meant to go.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman, you click add or change avatar, pull up your pictures and choose one. I had to cut this one down in corell to make it fit. Too many kb’s whatever that is. Belive me, it wasn’t easy, because I am a computer illiterate.

No, Zsa Zsa, he died last May. You may have seen his truck on my last avatar or in a fishing boat. I know I should put away these memories and one day I will, just not yet.

Margie: The Law is often an unfair taskmaster. Whenever someone commits a crime and others are injured as a direct result of their actions or in this case indirectly; then they are judged guilty of those incidental crimes as well. Whenever there is a hot pursuit, officers, unless otherwise engaged, all respond in the direction of the hot pursuit so they will be closer by if needed, especially if they hear an officer down call. So, every officer and others responding to the call, whether dispatched or not were lawfully engaged in their duties and if the criminal had not been engaged in a crime, it is reasonable to assume their injury or death would not have occurred.

I should add that such a back-up officer would not always use their red lights and sirens, but if this officer was running traffic lights and not using such emergency warning devices, then while the criminal still was an accessory in his death, his family would have no civil claims.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Oh. Thanks for the info, Neiman! ...Ah ha,ah ha!

Margie: Thinking about your comments about the perpetrator. While we seek understanding and when appropriate apply mercy, anyone perpetrating a criminal act must be held responsible by society of every case of injury or death that can be directly related to that crime. That doesn’t mean, as it often does, that while many charges are filed many are also dropped before trial. However, for the death of a police officer the criminal must accept responsibility and suffer some punishment or else it is open season on cops.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I know the decision to pursue in minor trafic stops such as this one is being debated nationwide and it should be. Too many bystanders get killed or injured because Jr. took Daddys car without permission and was scared enough to run, or some one has a little weed in the car when they get stopped for speeding. I don’t think anyone should be persued unless they are a clear danger to the public. The risks outweigh the benefit. They have to go home sooner or later. There are safer ways to apprehend them, although belatedly.

Margie: Hold on, sit down and grab hold of something, we agree about hot pursuits. In our modern age of communications and helicopters and other tools, I think hot pursuits are damn dangerous to an innocent public and should be highly restricted to known cases where the person being chased committed a crime of violence.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I would be more inclined to charge the officer who called for the chase with this accident than the person stupid enough to run from the police. The police know the risks when they prusue and should balance them and take responsibility for the results when they decide to do it.

Lord, can you believe that baby faced little fart in the picture I used was ever a Marine and fought in combat? He looks like he needs his diapers changed. My only saving grace is that Audie Murphy the most highly decorated soldier of WW-II looked more like a baby than I did and was 5’4”!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

As the token female liberal, treated courteously for the most part and even debated with seriously sometimes, it is a thrill to be agreeded with. This calls for a celebration. Hold on while I get my kool-aid.

Margie, I am so sorry for your loss! It takes time. Time is the only thing that helps cushion the death of a loved one. I think it is OK to hold on as long as you need to. I have to say I would never have guessed ravioli. My next guess was peaches???

Margie: Once again, without more details I cannot judge the situation, and if the officer was operating within departmental policies, change the policies before you start charging officers with a crime.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

True. They can only be expected to abide by departmental guidelines.

Your picture is not registering. Did you put it on as an avatar or a profile picture? Or is it just my computer?

Margie: I followed your instructions exactly about Avatar and I can see it just fine when I open this blog.

By the way you are treated courteously because while I and others may disagree with you, in my short time here you have never been disagreeable.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Thank you Zsa Zsa. I was tempted to deck a good friend for telling me it was improper for me to still be wearing my wedding band on my left hand. I still feel married and it will stay there till I don’t.

Must be my computer. I still have a question mark. I let my kids talk me into getting it last June, over my protests that you can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and I still anm not very adept with it.

I enjoy debating untill people start with the “You’re lying “ and spewing all the leftie names if you disagree with them. I believe there is room for all of us and you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Keep it on! Besides, men seem to really like married women???  Maybe you will accidentally meet someone?…

I am 62 years old now, married for 43 years to my truck driver, don’t ever want anyone else. I have a full life with crocheting, sewing, camping with the kids and grandkids, babysitting for them sometimes, growing flowers on my apt. patio,reading and of course, politics. That’s enough. But thanks for the thought.

Neiman, Audie Murphy was our hero! Didn’t he take out a machine gun nest single-handly or was that Sgt. York?

Zsa Zsa: Just to check it out, do you see a picture at the left of my posts of a baby faced guy in combat gear?

Margie: York took out several machine gun nests single handed and single handed captured over a hundren German soldiers (WW-I). Audie Murphy risked his life many time in Europe and that is why that even while both have the Congressional Medal of Honor, Murph had many more medals on his chest.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

From everything I have read and heard, Vietnam was a particularly nasty jungle war, with hard living conditions and constant threat from snipers, children with grenades, Cong creeping up on outposts in the dark. I’m very happy you survived it and sorry for those who didn’t. I’m also sorry for the reception you guys got when you got home. May we never confuse our brave warriors with our disagreement about a war again.

No. BUT I clicked on your name and it went to member profile and I see the little guy saluting…

dYeah, I saw the soldier suluting on the profile. Can you move it to Avatar?

Margie: Yeah, it was a lousy reception back home and I am afraid our guys and gals from Iraq are going to face the same thing if we cut-and-run like we did back then. My Grandson is there now, my nephew is going back soon.

My brother had 2.5 tours in Nam, came back wounded in mind and body. After a time he got better, has lived a good life as a Christian minister, but will probably not be around more than 2-3 years, because of heart disease and diabetes.

My late eldest brother served in Korea, my dad and others in the family in WW-II in the Pacific. Since my family, on both sides have fought in every war since the American Revolution, I always joke that we just can’t get along with anybody.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

The picture in my photo file was different than the one I wanted to use, so I changed it and on avatar is has the same picture posted there, so shouldn’t that come through now?

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Maybe Rob has to ok it or something. I thought I had not succeeded in puting mine up , but a few days later when I went online, there it was. Odd that you can see it on the blog but we can’t tho. Maybe tomorow it will be here too.

What do you think

Whistler, I think that in the USA citizens are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven to be guilty and if law enforcement officials viewed each suspect that way, incidents like this would be less likely to happen.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Aside from taking reasonable measures to insure their own saftey in case they are wrong about that, I agree. Those measures should not include stomping someone when they are down, even if they know they are guilty of something.

These old bones are for bed. ZSA ZSA and Neiman, thanks for an interesting discussion. Later.

docdave: It would be nice if this were a perfect world, wouldn’t it?

We hear about a crime like Scott Peterson on television and usually a vast majority of the people judge innocent or guilty on that basis alone, trial by media. As I said to Margie, until or unless you have been under fire or in a life or death occupation, it is unfair to judge such things from a distance. There are all sorts of contributing factors that could be brought into play here, or maybe these guys did exceed their authority and violated the law and departmental regulations.

We need soldiers and police officers to defend our lives and we need to support them until and unless they are proven guilty in a court of law.

Margie: 1. Go to my profile now, the picture I am using is there. 2. If my life is in danger and I get the other guy down, I am damn sure going to keep him down, but I just don’t have enough information and if it as reported, then I agree it was excessive force, but it might not rise to a level more than a formal reprimand, time off without pay and retraining.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

DocDave, that’s pretty much the way I feel.  Playing with guns a very serious thing and when they do it by mistake it’s a very serious mistake. 

When people come at a law abiding person with a gun the law abiding don’t think that oh it’s a cop, lay down and let the lawyer handle it.  It wouldn’t occur to me that I’d be taken down in a rough arrest.  So what am I to expect.

I also have to respectivly disagree with Chief.  We have a duty to support the police when they are in the right and criticize them when they aren’t.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Neiman, I never said it was a perfect world.  Read my post again as I wrote incidents like this would be less likely to happen. There simply is no reason that police cannot treat a person that DOES NOT resist arrest with the courtesy and respect that they deserve as a citizen of this nation.  The suspects also have a right to ‘due process’ the probable cause reasons for that arrest.  Our entire judicial systems rests on the foundation of assumed innocence and that foundation is seriously eroded by treating suspects as assumed guilty as some law enforcement officials do.  This case and the alleged rape case with the Duke lacrosse players illustrate that point.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

To the sergeants, Small was resisting while Lobban was not, according to their interviews with internal affairs.
...
Small’s mouth bled from the inside and he suffered abrasions to his face as a result of his treatment by the sergeant, the internal affairs file shows.
...
He received $65,000 in settlement money from the county

I’m not sure where the abuse is, really.  They made a really dumb mistake in arresting the wrong people, but in the process Small’s made a really dumb mistake in fighting back.  If the police were to tackle me and shove their foot in my back, the last thing I’d do is try to fight back.  They’re the one’s with guns, I’m no moron… haha

Anyway, he got $65,000 for a bloody lip and the embarrassment of being mistakenly arrested, what more do you expect IA to do?

There are real instances of police brutality and power trips every day all across the country, this is most definently not one of them from the facts presented…

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

In a surveillance video, one sergeant was seen repeatedly putting his foot on Small’s shoulder - or giving him a “foot strike” - as Small was prone on the floor, but trying to look around; this sergeant also pushed Small’s face into the floor, the video shows.

Looking around is resisting arrest?  I’d probably be doing the same thing if I was wrongfully attacked by the police.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Sphag, cops lie and cops back eachother up.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

They said he was resisting, you assume that his “looking around” is what they were talking about.  And of course cops have/will lie to back each other up on occasion, but to assume that is the truth until proven the other way around seems rather odd.  There is no evidence of that given so why assume it?

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagnum said, They made a really dumb mistake in arresting the wrong people, but in the process Small’s made a really dumb mistake in fighting back.

If he was fighting back, why did the city pay up?

I hope you realize that the restraints that police employ often involuntarily cause the body to fight back or spasm.

There are real instances of police brutality...

This is one of them. Every time the police employ violent force over possible possession of a harmless plant, it is brutality. That’s regardless of whether or not the harmless plant is illegal.

They’re beating the shit out of people for weed. That’s gangster behavior and it doesn’t make you cops look good.

So trying to move your head after being perhaps painfully restrained face down on the floor is resisting arrest!!??
Really??  Give me a break.  Under no conditions can I imagine that it is not cruelty to stand on a restrained persons head.  Anyway if the entire episode was video taped, the viewing of the tape should override any comments by police or defendants.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

As everyone on this site well knows I’m a staunch defender of individual police. Not necessarily policies or laws, but I understand that each situation differs and unless you’re there it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback.

That being said I have to say that this could have been avoided if attention to detail had been observed. Little things like checking and double checking a license plate. And as far as the resisting goes, it’s the officer’s duty to control the scene. Do what he says. HOWEVER...it is lawful to resist an unlawful arrest. That guy had a right to fight had he chosen to do so. He would have lost at the scene, of course, but he had that right to resist. He could have fought back much more violently and been right in doing so.

I would have done so in his place.

One more thing....this is another example of our bullshit “war on drugs” affecting lives well beyond what is justified.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I would have done so in his place.

I wouldn’t necessarily fight back, but I don’t know if this was resisting arrest or a natural reaction of wanting to know what the hell is going on.

The thing is the cops say one thing, the video tape is what it is. 

The county paid up. 

Makes you wonder.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

What stands out to me is the lack of evidence. They did not find 30lbs of marijane in the car, on what grounds were these guys arrested? Also, they knew this white Lumina picked up the pot, and where it was picked up. Why did they not bust them there?

Why stack&crash in this company’s office? Why not walk in, flash a badge, say"Gentlemen, we need to ask you some questions.” and proceed from there? Why the Hollywood SWAT team tactics. It was Florida in August, fairly easy to tell if they were packing anything more than small pistols, even in suits.

And once cuffed on the floor why forcibly restrain them any further? Let’em flop around like fish and scream. They attempt to get up, Taser their ass.

Something does not add up all the way around in this.

And where is the car with the 30lbs of smoke? They saw them take possesion at a location they knew to be a drugdealers residence, IDed the vehicle by license and make/year, and had clear veiw of the 2 perps.

The math just ain’t figuring here.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Oh, and raising your head to look around, or asking questions is not resisting arrest. Several court cases have established that. That is likely the grounds on which these citizens won the Abusive Cop lottery. Or, more correctly, their lawyers won. These two likely only got a small fraction of the settlement.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2H9 and Doc Dave, “looking around” is not resisting arrest, that’s just what the Whistler made up. 

And I cannot believe those that say that you are in the right to fight back if you beleive you are being unlawfully arrested.  That’s just bizzare. First, you make yourself look guilty when in fact you are not.  Second, you are just asking for the shit to be beat out of you.  Third, you do NOT have the right to resist arrest.  The officers have the power of the entire government behind them and the time to protest is not when they have guns drawn and pointing at you.  I actually don’t really beielve anyone that says they would fight back.  It’s easy to say on some anonymous weblog, but if you had a gun to your head you would probably shut up and wait until the situation was under control and calm before pointing out the fact that you’re not the guy they’re looking for…

The thing is the cops say one thing, the video tape is what it is.

The county paid up.

Makes you wonder.

Wonder what?  They made a big mistake in arresting the wrong person and so they settled so as not to get sued, not sure what else there is to wonder about.

I think Rob hates me… I mean, just look at the pic he took of me!

Sphagetti, the video shows the cop forcing his face into the floor, the only activity on the part of the detainee is to raise his head and ask questions. No attempt to get to his feet. Not attempt to fight. That is what the video shows and the cops attested to. Cop fucked up. Period. This is compounded by the fact that the only arrest recorded in all this is the 2 innocent citizens. The actual criminals skated, after these cops watched them take possesion of 30lbs of contraband. At a location that was a confirmed drugdealer’s home.

So, how is this the fault of the innocent citizen? Or are we no working from the premise that there are no innocent citizens? Only cops and perps who ain’t been arrested? I have seen this in 3rd World coumtries. Is this where America is now?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

DocDave: I wasn’t accusing you of saying anything, I was just making a general observation.

I do not have access to any videos or any details about this specific incident, thus I am only speaking generally with limited knowledge of the case. 1. Understanding what the police face and not jumping to judgment is in our best interest. 2. I have made it clear if guilt exists punitive and corrective steps need to be taken.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Spag, you can say ‘don’t fight back’ but when one is faced with that situation particularly a no-knock situation that cops are prone to pursue these days in search of narcotics the instant reaction may be to resist especially when someone is breaking down your door.  There have been any number of fatal shootings of the innocent by police with the most recent being an elderly women in (I believe)Atlanta.  I ask you how does a person distinguish between a criminal who is invading their home from a cop who is effectively doing the same in a no-knock situation?  Consider that criminals often pose as law enforcement agents.

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

I have been trawling Newslink for more info and only come up with the one article. From it, video and non-police witnesses all state that Desmond Small only raised his head and asked questions. Since when was that resisting arrest. Under the Gestapo, yes. Under the NKVD, yes. In America? Since the fuck when!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Despite all the wailing, crying and hand wringing, doesn’t it appear that police misconduct was found probable in this case and the city and officers were made accountable? Our nation is far from perfect, but compare what happened here to how such a situation would have been handled in many parts of our world and we can be proud that police conduct was questioned and there was a penalty for those in power.

Police abuse should be questioned and not permitted, but we need such people risking their lives on our behalf and so we should avoid the temptation to automatically assume guilt, as in most cases our police are professionals, family men and women and obey the law.

As to the idea that this was a petty crime or perhaps should not be a crime at all; that is up to the people of that state but while it is illegal, the police are responsible to enforce the law.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman, let me become less opaque, I am not anti-cop. I am at best ambivalent. Throughout my life I have known many different cops, almost became one. I, like many other people on all sides of this issue, see a change, a “paradig’em” shift if you will. Americans are seen less and less as citizens and more and more as,,,municipal revenue sources, unconvicted perps, mouths to be fed at government expense, property of the(fill in the blank). And we don’t like it.

This kind of action by lawenforcement officers is indicative of a general change in attitudes. If these officers believed the 2 men they were surrveiling were so dangerous as to warrant swarming them, then why did they wait until they were inside a business with innocent bystanders close at hand. Seems a bit odd. Does not add up.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

As I said, I don’t have many details and I accept the fact that the police might have been guilty of misconduct, even criminal misconduct. However, I have some understanding of what happens during a crisis and how things can innocently get out of hand, so I choose to not assume the police are guilty until and unless the evidence says otherwise.

These things, in my several decades of life, seem to swing back and forth like a pendulum, the left pushes for more rights for the criminals and less for the police; other times we have a more aggressive law enforcement and a public tired of crime. We have great country and things like this seem to even out over time.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman said, Police abuse should be questioned and not permitted, but we need such people risking their lives on our behalf...

Huh? Dude, it’s weed. This is ridiculous. We don’t need cops risking their lives over weed. And, for the record, they’re not doing it on my behalf.

However, I have some understanding of what happens during a crisis and how things can innocently get out of hand...

It’s called “the drug war” and there’s nothing innocent about it. It’s a big money maker for the cops these days.

Here, “steal” your forfeitures back: stealitback.org

The drug laws have created a gangster class of cops and have stoked a gangster mindset. This isn’t cool. It’s pretty fucked up that I live in a nation where murderers often do less time and are treated better than someone caught with drugs. It’s really messed up that most of the world, especially the west, is that way.

Police generally aren’t looked up to anymore. They’re feared.

I’ll assume you don’t live in Florida, right?

So, don’t the people of Florida or any state have a right, through the ballot and/or their elected representatives, to outlaw non-prescription narcotics and prescribe certain penalties? Even if the penalties seem greater for narcotic trafficing than homicide, isn’t that up to the people of Florida to decide for themselves?

While some dirty cops in some places sell their badges to get rich of illegal drugs, does not and should not stain all law enforcement officers everywhere with a label.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I have to agree with lik that it is the profits of the drug war (on both sides, drug lords and police) that are widening the split between the police and the citizenry.  This is the reality as I see it regardless of the validity of the drug war.  As far as the people deciding, they once decided on alcohol prohibition and then realized they were wrong so why can’t they be wrong here too?

Question for you Neiman: the prohibition on alcohol (a recreational drug) required a constitutional amendment before it could be enforced.  This implies that the Federal government did not already have the power to prohibit drugs (alcohol).  Why does the prohibition of cocaine, marijuana and other recreational drugs not require a constitutional amendment?

You don’t have to be a moron to be a liberal Democrat but it sure helps.

Docdave: The 18th Amendment was against the manufacture, sale, or transportation of intoxicating liquors within the United States. It was subjected to the Amendment process because it was to be a Federal Law, as they wanted to stop interstate commerce and thus alcohol use everywhere.

However, absent a federal law prohibiting the manufacture, sale or transportation of any substance, that fact notwithstanding does not preclude individual states from passing such restrictive laws and does not require it be submitted to anyone other than their citizens for ratification (approval).

In a reresentative Republic we empower the Congress to pass laws under the restrictions of the Constitution that prohibit manufacture, sale or transporttaion of various substances, but that does not mean individual states cannot approve such substances within their borders. If the federal government wants to prohibit all states from the manufacture, sale or transportation of any substance, they must amend the Constitution; that is, unless they use the threat of withholding federal funding of other projects as a means to force the states to comply. Thus in the latter case no amendment is needed, as the Congress approved the threat of withholding funds to get their way and did not mandate it. You may not like this latter use of the law and federal funds, but the only way to change that fact is to only vote for people committed to not use federal funds to blackmail states into compliance with federal laws within state borders.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Afraid you’re talking in riddles, Nieman.  Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce without amendments but NOT to regulate commerce within any state boundary.  The 18th amendment allowed the Feds to regulate INTRASTATE commerce as well so therefore the Feds should require a new amendment to regulate