Say Anything Blog

The report said the United States is the world’s incarceration leader, far ahead of more populous China with 1.5 million people behind bars.

To be fair about it, the Chinese have a tidy habit of taking their more serious or repeat offenders out and simply shooting them in the head.

It’s a good deal less expensive, and it has a dramatic effect on the incarceration percentage.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

The “prison advocates will never allow this number to slip. It has become an industry just like any other that feeds off of the government tit. Can youimagine any politician standing up and saying the war on drugs is not working? The shit storm that they would have to endure would be huge. Opponents would twist it into support for drugs and being soft on criminals in a second.

At least we are safe. It’s not like you can go to any city on almost any street corner and score some drugs.

Oh yeah, you can still do that.

Well, nevermind.

We have to protect people from themselves. Nevermind the freedom implications of such a thing in “the land of the free hypocrites”.

It is a shame that we have so many people in prison, and I’d like to offer what little insight into why that is.

1. 1/3 of our kids are born outside of marraige, a situation that has a strong correlation to criminality and future welfare dependency.

2. Discipline has been all but removed from public education. If a child learns at an Early age (as many do) that he is above following rules, that he can get away with not working, and that the system is powerless to change his behavior, what kind of adult is he likely to grow up to be? The disciplinary structure of public education is based on the type of discipline problems that America had in the 1950s. The only change that has been made is to make it more lenient.

3. We have a major cultural institution (hip-hop) that glamorizes thugishness. There are a lot of young kids out there who aspire to gang life because of how it portrayed in media. And in many areas, the emulation of gang membership (along with defiance) is being seen in 1st grade students.

The problems that lead us to have so many adults in prison, are problems related to our lack of seriousness in raising children to be responsible adults.

"So....we put more of our people behind bars than China ? More than Russia, or the other states of the former Soviet Union?”

Why do you think you have anything like reliable information?  I can’t think of anyone I’ve known who’s served time for drugs.  I haven’t met an ex-con in 30 years.

If anything we need to lock up more people, beginning with a few score Congressmen.

This a comparison with the rest of the world is hardly compelling.

Remember, in China and most Islamic countries their solution to a large prison populations is easy - kill them. We have made prison too easy, they get television, pornographic magazines, exercise equipment, very good food, free health care and as much sexual intercourse as they want. We have taken the social stigma out of being a convict, we even make movies to glorify criminals, our liberal friends glorify cop killers, and we don’t make jail a thing to be feared!

Last and most important this results first from the state telling God He is personna non grata in the public square - He should butt our of our lives and as a consequence, the breakdown of strong extended families.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I haven’t met an ex-con in 30 years.

How do you know? Is there some kind of scarlett letter on their shirt or a mark on their forehead. Gary, I haven’t seen you here before - welcome, by the way - but that’s an absurd statement. You HAVE met ex-cons, they just didn’t bother to bring it up in conversation.

They seldom do.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

I’ve actually corresponded with a guy who got caught trying to sell 9 ozs of cocaine.  Or at least his girlfriend--his letters were in a beautiful feminine script.  I wasn’t the only person trying to reach out to him, it seems.  Hope he’s kept on the wagon.

To Pilgrim’s point, my gut is that yes, we can reform some drug laws--starting by figuring out how much THC needs to be in someone system to qualify as intoxication.  Punish it as public drunkenness with fines, not jail time.  Not sure about cocaine, heroin, etc..  I’m not THAT libertarian.  :^)

Another thought; thieves should be punished with restitution, not jail time, and mild violent offenders might be better punished restitution and flogging than with jail.

Gary Gulrud - I can’t think of anyone I’ve known who’s served time for drugs.

That you know of.

Do you really think they would offer up such information in public?

Bike Bubba - Another thought; thieves should be punished with restitution, not jail time...

Damn near impossible. Think about it: a thief breaks the windows of some store, robs it, and then gets caught. Does his restitution include paying for the increased insurance of every business in the area? After all, his actions brought about the increased insurance.

Throw the thieves in jail.

Is this figuring in for illegal aliens.

check out Goon’s World

Goon’s North Dakota Red Neck

In Singapore for a host of moderate level crimes they have found ‘canning’ to discourage criminals from repeating their crimes. If we used this for drug dealers, thiefs, burglars, repeat drug abusers and other such crimes - we would greatly lower the jail population, lower our costs, discourage repeat offenders, and if reality television is interested, we could even make a profit!

In Singapore, I feel safe alone anywhere at any time of night and could even park my Mercedes, if I owned one on the street without fear of some punk scratching it for fun. It sounds almost barbaric, but in Singapore it really does work!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Lik, you’re right that it would be really difficult to implement, and certainly it wouldn’t apply to all.  However, I’d rather have guys working off their debt to society on Joe Arpaio’s chain gang, and possibly learning a trade in the process (even something as humble as painting over graffiti), instead of learning the tricks of the trade with three hots and a cot in the state pen.

Again, I grant you; difficult as anything.  I just think it would be worth it in the end.

Is this figuring in for illegal aliens.

My guess is no.

Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

...instead of learning the tricks of the trade with three hots and a cot in the state pen.

Right on about that one. Jail and prison are the best places in the world to learn how to be a better criminal. The ironically named “rehabilitation” is scoffed at and as a consequence, we as a nation reap the consequences.

Those who believe that jail and prison should be nothing but punishment are a part of the problem. Most of the imprisoned will be back out into society again one day. What do you want them to be schooled in, how to be a better criminal or some legal trade?

Bubba mentions a guy incarcerated for sale of 9 oz. of Cocaine.
Probably got 5 to 15 farkin years.

Draconian sentencing is part of the reason we have so many in jail.

If the guy was going to learn selling coke was a bad career choice , how long in the slammer before he figured that out?
1yr, 2?

Shysters have mouths to feed, too, you know.

We have to protect people from themselves. Nevermind the freedom implications of such a thing in “the land of the free hypocrites”.

Drugs have ravaged the inner cities and are a major source of many of the problems the black community faces. It’s not about keeping the people enslaved, nor protecting them from themselves. It’s about trying to control drugs that make people violent (either while on them, or while coming down and wanting their next fix). While we unfortunately lump drugs like Marijuana in with Crack Cocaine, this is an argument for the reform of the system...not it’s abolishment.

Woof, the guy knew.  He was majoring in (sigh) criminal justice.

Got 10 years, served all of it, I think.  What a waste of a good guy and an excellent runner.  But 9 ounces of coke--that’s enough to keep a man stoned for years, no?  I have to suggest that some harm was done to someone by this guy’s dealing.

It’s about trying to control drugs that make people violent...

Okay. Let’s do that.

1. Alcohol
2. PCP
3. ???

What is the list?

Most drugs do not make people violent. Not weed, not coke, not meth, not heroin, not acid, not shrooms, not K, not nitrous, not ecstasy, not speed, not pain pills and on and on.

...or while coming down and wanting their next fix

So basically the big problem is the actions of the drunk alcoholics, the crackheads, and the methheads.

While we unfortunately lump drugs like Marijuana in with Crack Cocaine, this is an argument for the reform of the system...not it’s abolishment.

Reform something that is fundamentally broken?

Good luck.

Bike Bubba - But 9 ounces of coke--that’s enough to keep a man stoned for years, no?

A teener of coke would probably last him one weekend. About 16 teeners per ounce. If it was his personal and he was a habitual casual user, he could tweak (not stoned) every weekend for a couple of years.

I have to suggest that some harm was done to someone by this guy’s dealing.

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

It’s like blaming God (if you believe in that sort of thing) for making the marijuana plant.

America would throw God in jail for “harming” people.

So....we put more of our people behind bars than China ? More than Russia, or the other states of the former Soviet Union?

A bit misleading, since everyone in a totalitarian country is “in jail” in a way.  Also, they just kill a lot of their people, as others have already pointed out.  It’s really not appropriate to compare a free society trying to police unlawful behavior with a totalitarian society that seeks to control its population.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

War on Incandescent Light Bulb Smuggling

... someday.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

"In Singapore for a host of moderate level crimes they have found ‘canning’ to discourage criminals from repeating their crimes.”

Sounds like a good idea.  Turn them into Spam.

I think that all the talk about guys serving time for minor drug convictions is interesting, but that’s not the average convict. In California, prisons are so overcrowded that most drug possession cases don’t result imprisonment.

Most druggies who end up in prison end up there for other crimes like posession of stolen goods, burglary, assault, or other crimes that are brought about as a result of illegal commerce.

Most of the guys who end up in prison end up there because they’re hurting other people and taking their stuff.

There’s also a lot of guys doing time in jail because they think defiance and confrontation is a smart wa to deal with law enforcement personel. This I’ve managed to see in person.

I still say we could do a lot to reduce the number of young men in the criminal justice system if we reorganized public school discipline. If you’ve learned by the age of 8 that there are no significant consequences for being defiant, violent, indolent, or abusive, there’s a lot less you can teach them by the age of 18.

Wing,

Most of the guys who end up in prison end up there because they’re hurting other people and taking their stuff.

A lot of times, the assault is drug related—like when gangs have turf wars. The illegality of drugs creates a market for drug dealers who use violence to ensure supremacy on a turf. That’s just one of the ways the war on drugs breeds crime.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Drugs are a huge market.
9 oz of coke isn’t a bucket of
water in the municipal pool.

This guy was no kingpin, He was
a Tupperware salesmen.
Not a house on the ocean, Ferraris,
Lears and Limos dealer.
A workin stiff in the drug world.

If he was caught in Miami it wouldn’t make the papers.
In Iowa they might have given him life.

I for one have no problem with the idea of legalizing marijuana. Although I’m not a user, I don’t think it’s any more harmful than hard alcohol.

I would also like to see prison sentences reduced across the board, except for serious violent crimes. If to guys get into a fight, and it’s mutual combat, it shouldn’t result in jail time.

One thing I would do is return to the old system where prisoners were prohibited from talking wqithout express permission of the guard overseeing them.

Basically…

Under my regime, prisoners would have much shorter sentences for most crimes. But a ten year sentence would mean 10 years without a conversation or minutes’s recreation.

I for one have no problem with the idea of legalizing marijuana.

That’s a start. But you don’t get a lot of gun fights over weed (at least not in NY).

If to guys get into a fight, and it’s mutual combat, it shouldn’t result in jail time.

It usually doesn’t unless the non-aggressor gets seriously hurt. Once again, depends on the jurisdiction and how full the prisons are. From what Rob has been posting of the empty, multi-million dollar prisons in ND, I can see a judge locking you up cow tipping.

Under my regime…

That was icing on the cake. lol.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Hairy:

My overall point is that a lot of young men (and some not so young) are wasting a good portion of what should be the most productive years of their lives.

Most of them deserve to be there, but I still think that’s a waste.

I think we need to reform prison by undoing much of the “prison rights” movement. Right now, the worst of the worst have just as much opportunity to be predators inside as they have outside. And those people who end up in prison because they’re stupid and lazy end up being punished preyed upon by the hard core criminals.

I think that we should go to shorter sentences, but those sentences should be served in silence with only hard labor to break up the day. I think that would reduce the power of prison gangs, and reduce the appeal of prison as a badge of honor for aspiring gang-bangers.

I also think we need to reform education so that at-risk young men learn earlier in life that they don’t get to be defiant, violent and abusive.

I don’t want to see millions of young men waste their lives in prison.. I also don’t want come home to find my that my posession had been taken and/or destroyed while I was at work again.

P.S. There’s a lot of crime that’s not drug related. There are a lot of guys behind bars and walking free who just like to hurt other people. Burglars don’t break all the picture frames in a house because they need a fix. And most rapes don’t happen to secure drug territory.

Sorry man, but from my personal observations in downtown Stl, each and every day, I’d say that 1% is awfully low.  Please show me the rule that gives the appropriate percentage of the population that needs to be locked up.  My guess would be that it’s somewhere in the 3-4% range.  That is to say that this percentage of the populace simply doesn’t give a damn what you think, what you want, what belongs to who, or what the rules say they can and cannot do.  You can either lock the a-holes up or deal with them in your neighborhood.

batone AKA bigbrotherONE sez:

It’s a good deal less expensive, and it has a dramatic effect on the incarceration percentage.

Fuck it man, what are we fighting for? Fuck freedom and all the rest, let’s just shoot people like China.

Sure. Just don’t rip on socialists.

Sparkie,

Has been a year already?  And still you don’t recognize sarcasm when lifts its heavy head and smiles at you?  Pity?  I would have thought you’d be one of those not in need of any sort of warning.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

The Federal Sentencing guidelines are a major cause of this.  They are ridiculously draconian and they effectively eliminate a judge’s ability to weight the situation individually and act accordingly...which is always dangerous. 

Granted, the Supreme Court did away with their “mandatory” status, but let them remain as presumtively reasonable.  And therefore, there is rarely a judge that deviates from them. 

Felon in possession of a firearm...3-6 years in my experience.  You can’t have a system of punishment based on a flowchart.  It’s just ridiculous. 

In my experience, North Dakota seems to keep it’s prison’s clear because 1) it doesn’t have that much crime, relative to other areas; and 2) the judges seem to focus on recidivism as opposed to simply locking people up right away.  Now, granted, the serious crimes (violent, drug sales) will get you in the pen whether it’s your first or fifth.  But things like possession/disorderly conduct/theft etc. are normally given time to fester. 

Also, I read someone talking about restitution instead of real punishment for theft offenses.  I would love for this to be true for it would make most of my clients smile.  Restitution is generally regarded as purely political.  State’s attorneys ask for restitution because, politically, it would be costly for them NOT to.  But noone really expects to get it back.  Think about it, if someone had money to pay for things, why would they write bad checks or steal to get them?

Tell you how you fix the incarceration problem, theft, and violent crime--pass laws like Florida’s Castle Law:

Florida’s “Castle Doctrine” law does the following:

One: It establishes, in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, so the occupant may use force, including deadly force, against that person.

Two: It removes the “duty to retreat” if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others.

Three: It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force. It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them. In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors to focus on protecting victims.

You break into someone’s house or carjack them and you are fucking dead.  BAM.  Done.  Or you are paralyzed for like.  And you cannot sue them because it was your dumb ass that tried to rob them.

You get several benefits.  Sooner or later, habitual criminals are either going to be dead or learn a painful lesson.  New criminals will hear stories about other dead criminals and rethink their new profession.  It makes the common citizen feel more in control of their own safety and they feel less threatened by criminals.  Now, folks live in fear and want criminals locked away for as long as possible.  Just let me defend myself.  Let some son of a bitch try to break in.

Anyone one doesn’t get to keep more than 50% of their income is a De facto prisoner, a.k.a. slave to the elite who rely on taxpayers for their income.

The Federal Sentencing guidelines are a major cause of this.

I disagree. its not something that happened overnight. fed sentencing guidelines are merely recommendations to try to reign in insane judges, DAs, and the like.

We have so many people incarcerated basically because of the overzealous efforts of prosecutors and politicians who want to be seen as being tough on crime and a media that scolds anyone who fails to live up to this image. The idea of rational common sense sentences for criminals has gone out the window and the idea of putting ‘em away for life is the law of the land. Our penal system is based on rehabilitation, not warehousing. If you check into it, I am sure you will see that most criminals are in jail for what can only be described as minor drug offenses. You can kill someone and get a 2 year sentence. If you are caught with an ounce of crack, you get 20 years. The latter make up the majority of prisoners. Yet no one has the guts to go against this policy. I believe in putting hardened criminals who rob, terrorize and kill behind bars for a long time. I even advocate police killing shooters outright if they witness a murder. However, I think it is wrong to try children for “adult” crimes because children are innocent in God’s eyes. This report shows that our entire system of justice is out of control.

Goon asked:

Is this figuring in for illegal aliens.

I think the totals include illegal aliens as the numbers match figures on total prison populations that I was able to find.

However the total incarcerated number of non-citizens is up to 30%.  That includes illegal and legal non-citizens.  Best numbers I could find on illegals is about 17% in FEDERAL prison (2004 numbers) from here:
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/3/27/114208.shtml

I don’t think that includes state or local jail/prisons which would vary greatly depending on the community.

Here is another link I found:
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters0b9c

If illegals are just 3% of the population yet they account for 17% of the prison population and all non-citizens is roughly a third of the prison population then those are astounding, scary, and sad statistics.
DKK

However the total incarcerated number of non-citizens is up to 30%.

And the federal bureaucracy ends up slowing the deportation process, so these illegals sit festering in our prisons tied up in endless red tape.

These are the same people who want to bring you health care.

Wing,

I think we need to reform prison by undoing much of the “prison rights” movement.

I agree with you that prisoners seem to get way too many rights. But these rights are constitutional (think: cruel and unnusual punishment), and if we did away with them we would have to rethink all of the non-prisoner rights that stem from that Amendment. Take the bad with the good.

I also think we need to reform education so that at-risk young men learn earlier in life that they don’t get to be defiant, violent and abusive.

I don’t think that would do much of anything. Education reform would make our lower-middle-class+ kids smarter (which we desperately need to do as well), but 99.9% of crimes are committed by the dirt poor (economic study: poverty breeds crime).

There’s a lot of crime that’s not drug related. There are a lot of guys behind bars and walking free who just like to hurt other people.

LOL. No. There are SOME, but not A LOT. And most of that SOME are criminally insane, and thus in hospitals, not prisons. Most crime involves somebody poor doing something stupid because he can’t find a better way to make a living—that includes shooting someone to keep “respect” in your community, because “respect” garners employment (think: drug pushing) opportunity. I know this from econ studies and because I grew up in these neighborhoods.

Burglars don’t break all the picture frames in a house because they need a fix.

Yea they do. They’re usually kids who take the time to do something stupid for the rush of it while busy at their main goal—which is stealing stuff from you because they’re poor.

And most rapes don’t happen to secure drug territory.

Actually, many do. Like to intimidate a pusher by raping his girlfriend, or get back at someone who shot your buddy by raping his girlfriend. But I agree, there are also a lot of “rapists” out there—that’s a different story.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

PRISONS ARE NICE WARM HOMES WITH FREE FOOD, HEALTH CARE, ENTERTAINMENT, AND COMPANY. WHEN THE BECOME THE “HOUSE OF DEAD”, THEY WILL NOT BE SO POPULAR.

Actually, Hairy, the strongest predictor of crime in this country is not poverty, but is rather the family status of the criminal’s mother.  When you account for this, almost all of the correlation of crime to poverty and even race disappears.  See Walter Williams’ columns on jewishworldreview.com for details.

To draw a picture, the chief health issue of the poor is obesity.  We’re not exactly talking about the plight of Bob Cratchitt and Tiny Tim in our country, to put it mildly.

So if you want to reduce the crime rate, step 1 ought to be to stop incentivizing unwed parenting--yes, it’ll take a while for this to take effect, but it’s clearly #1 on the Pareto.

#2?  Probably to punish nonviolent offenders with some kind of restitution instead of placing them in our excellent criminal training programs.

There’s a lot of crime that’s not drug related. There are a lot of guys behind bars and walking free who just like to hurt other people.
LOL. No. There are SOME, but not A LOT. And most of that SOME are criminally insane, and thus in hospitals, not prisons. Most crime involves somebody poor doing something stupid because he can’t find a better way to make a living—that includes shooting someone to keep “respect” in your community, because “respect” garners employment (think: drug pushing) opportunity. I know this from econ studies and because I grew up in these neighborhoods.

Hairy:

Just to let you know where I’m coming from, I have several years experience working with at-risk kids brior to becoming a science teacher.

Most of these kids had a pattern of defiant, abusive, and self destructive behivior prior to them ever taking drugs. Most of them did come from single mothers who were users though.

I’m telling you that most of the kids I worked with were commiting property crimes and assault. There was also a great deal of sexual acting out (usually sexual harassment of a physical nature). I would bet money that these kids were not selling drugs or scoring drugs. But again, many of their moms were probable users. I’m not being nieve saying that drugs were totally unrelated to their behavior. I have known hard-core drug users. I’ve driven relatives to methadone clinics. I’ve seen junkies nod out into their plate at a family meal.

The anti-social behavior begins BEFORE any involvement in drug use or sales. To a person, these kids grew up without (to quote the Dog Whisperer) “rules, boundries and limitations.”

Drugs are a contributing factor to anti-social and self destructive behavior, but not the cause. The overwhelming number of individuals who do harm to society to score or sell drugs were already on that anti-social path well before they used or sold for the first time.

The fact is that

” ‘I haven’t met an ex-con in 30 years.’ ...that’s an absurd statement.”

I don’t disagree that such a fact could be hidden from me.  However, my experience is a bit more concrete than your hypotheses.

I know only a handful of lawyers, construction contractors, fly-by-night entrepeneurs; rather, mostly engineers, teachers, scientists, etc.  I don’t eat at downtown restaurants or frequent bars or walk through alleys with greenbacks hanging out of my pockets.

I find Wing Chun Geologist’s take more articulate than my own but consistent with my view.  Incarceration beats chemical lobotomy, the result is less predictable but at least a screw up is off the street.

Wing Chun said:

The anti-social behavior begins BEFORE any involvement in drug use or sales. To a person, these kids grew up without (to quote the Dog Whisperer) “rules, boundries and limitations.”

Drugs are a contributing factor to anti-social and self destructive behavior, but not the cause. The overwhelming number of individuals who do harm to society to score or sell drugs were already on that anti-social path well before they used or sold for the first time.

I completely agree. A lot of those kids get into drugs BECAUSE of anti-social or rebellious tendencies, not the other way around.

Well put.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Wing and Pilgrim,

At no point did I say that the anti-social behavior arises out of drug use. I merely said that the market for drug sales created by the war on drugs, and thus, the lucrative aspects of being a supplier cause a lot of poor people in bad neighborhoods to get into drug related crimes.

By drug related I mean that the crime is motivated around money that comes from doing something that has to do with drug. This is because most criminal “jobs” have something to do with drugs, be that seller, trafficker, etc…

You’re right, the bad upbringing these kids get has more to do with their poverty than drugs. The two go hand in hand (because poor people who were brought up not to value staying out of jail are more likely to go into a drug-related “job” than to make less money working at a fast food joint). In other words, these people don’t have all that many options.

Back to the education bit for a second:

It’s a tough call, because for education to fix something here, you need to get the students to want to take advantage of the education. To do that, you either get rid of the “fast money” options available to them due to the war on drugs, or you get their teachers to act more like their parents and teach them the values they need to learn.

I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t like the government taking over parenting, so I’d rather stop the war on drugs (it’s cheaper and more efficient).

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t like the government taking over parenting, so I’d rather stop the war on drugs (it’s cheaper and more efficient).

Hairy:

I completely agree with you. The results of the government schools (and the teacher’s unions) are very clear. And our war on drugs is a disaster. I don’t think we need to stop enforcing drug laws altogether (some are and will always be necessary) but we have to re-think a lot of it.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Go after entitlement consciousness; it’s the root of antisocial behavior.  When you’re “entitled” to something, and don’t have it, you feel justified in taking it away from those who do have it.  If you are told you have the “right” to something(which is really entitlement to have it), like the “right” to use drugs, anyone who says “no” to you is subject to resistance, sometimes violent resistance.
Go after the entitlement.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

You’re right, the bad upbringing these kids get has more to do with their poverty than drugs. The two go hand in hand (because poor people who were brought up not to value staying out of jail are more likely to go into a drug-related “job” than to make less money working at a fast food joint). In other words, these people don’t have all that many options.

We need to distinguish beetween powerty and being part of the underclass. For most people who are poor at some point in their life (me included), poverty is a phase. It’s usually a transitory one. One of my best friends was born to poor Mexican immigrants who raised three kids on the wrong side of the track. But because the parents had a strong work ethic, all their kids have grown up to be truly solid human beings (all of whom have risen into middle class status).

I’ve also know people who had more solidly middle class upringing than I had who choose to be part of the underclass and will be poor for the rest of their lives. There are certain behaviors that people will engage in that will keep them poor. For example, a friend of mine recently had his house broken into (and completely trashed) while he was at work. The kid who did it did not want for money, but he desired to be seen as a gang banger (I happen to know the kid).

I completely agree with you. The results of the government schools (and the teacher’s unions) are very clear. And our war on drugs is a disaster. I don’t think we need to stop enforcing drug laws altogether (some are and will always be necessary) but we have to re-think a lot of it.

To a certain degree schools have always been in the value system teacing business. For most of America’s history our schools attempted to indoctrinate kids into the expectations and responsibilities of citizenship. Don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal, be polite...these were all part of the school curriculum from the earliest public schools until the 1970s. I don’t see what’s wrong with that.

It wasn’t until the 1980s when ed-school became radicalized that this changed. Much of the change resulted from 60s radicals gaining positions of power, and attempting to use university education departments as one front in the class strugle (see William Ayers). Many of these radicals see the anti-social, criminally inclined student as a possible soldier in some imagined revolution.

By no means do all teachers believe in this. The majority are liberal in a dippy noncommited sort of way, but are not radicals. Education schools (and union leadership) though are pretty radical and have too much influence over educaitonal policy.

At no point did I say that the anti-social behavior arises out of drug use. I merely said that the market for drug sales created by the war on drugs, and thus, the lucrative aspects of being a supplier cause a lot of poor people in bad neighborhoods to get into drug related crimes.

By drug related I mean that the crime is motivated around money that comes from doing something that has to do with drug. This is because most criminal “jobs” have something to do with drugs, be that seller, trafficker, etc…

Let’s categorize things then:

1.  Property crimes including grand theft, embezelment, etc.
2.  Drug crimes
3.  Violent crimes including assault, battery, murder and the like
4.  Sexual crimes including molestation, rape, sexual assault

I am willing to concede that the majority of items 1 and all of items 2 are related to drugs.  But I believe that there are plenty of motivations to steal other than to get money to buy drugs.  Some people just steal shit to steal shit because they like money.  Others steal because they think they can get away with it.  Hence why CEO’s steal money from their companies and cashiers and restaurant managers or even the kid working at Walmart steals. 

A major portion of violent crime is committed by those involved with the drug trade.  Either users who are high or dealers killing folks over drug disputes.  But I think there are other major issues involved too.  Illegal immigration and drugs create backwaters where disputes have no adjudication except violence because the disputes arise out of illegal activity.  How does a coyote or a drug dealer go to small claims court to get the illegal they smuggled or the user they fronted a dime bag to to pay up?

I fail to see any correlation or at least a major correlation of drug use to sex crimes.  You don’t molest little kids or rape a woman because you are high on meth.  You may be high on meth AND rape a woman, but the drugs are hardly the cause.

I fail to see any correlation or at least a major correlation of drug use to sex crimes.

I didn’t say there was one. Read.

A major portion of violent crime is committed by those involved with the drug trade.  Either users who are high or dealers killing folks over drug disputes.  But I think there are other major issues involved too.  Illegal immigration and drugs create backwaters where disputes have no adjudication except violence because the disputes arise out of illegal activity.  How does a coyote or a drug dealer go to small claims court to get the illegal they smuggled or the user they fronted a dime bag to to pay up?

Your statement pretty backs up my argument: The majority (I didn’t say all) crimes are a result of our war on drugs and the market for illegal activity that it creates.

Yes, you’re right, there are other categories of crimes that have no relation to drug—white collar crimes being another such category.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

A major portion of violent crime is committed by those involved with the drug trade.  Either users who are high or dealers killing folks over drug disputes.  But I think there are other major issues involved too.  Illegal immigration and drugs create backwaters where disputes have no adjudication except violence because the disputes arise out of illegal activity.  How does a coyote or a drug dealer go to small claims court to get the illegal they smuggled or the user they fronted a dime bag to to pay up?

Here’s my question, would a gang member who is willing to fire into a crowd of mostly non-combatants to possibly it one oposing gang member (this just happened in LA) suddenly not engage in violent crime if drugs were legalized. That proclivity to violence is there in that person, irregardless of the legal status of drugs.

If drugs were legal do you think that MS-13 or the Crips would suddenly stop engaging in violence?

No

These people engage in violence because:

1. They hurting others.
2. They mostly get away with it.
3. violence gives them status in their subculture.

I think the war-on-drugs is being over factored as a cause of violence.

These people engage in violence because:

1. They ENJOY hurting others.
2. They mostly get away with it.
3. violence gives them status in their subculture.

I think the war-on-drugs is being over factored as a cause of violence.

1. They ENJOY hurting others.

It doesn’t start out that way. No one enjoys their first kill, eventually cognitive dissonance fills the gap by making you think that you enjoy it. In other words, if some do enjoy it, that’s not what causes the violence, the enjoyment later comes as an effect of the violence. Take a look at research studies on war vets.

2. They mostly get away with it.

That prolongs the violence, it doesn’t cause it.

3. violence gives them status in their subculture.

This is your only valid cause. However, it adds to my argument. Subcultural status serves the same purpose as economic status. If I want bigger clients for my firm, I fly first class and drive a nice car to create the impression of professionalism. If I sold drugs and wanted to push bigger volumes, I would cultivate a reputation for ruthlessness. Same thing.

If drugs were legal do you think that MS-13 or the Crips would suddenly stop engaging in violence?

If drugs were legal, there would be no reason for those gangs to exist. You think they’d get together for purely social reasons? Life is not World of Warcraft.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

But if we go with the premise that drug use is the major motivating factor for the above crimes as I detailed, then what I would like to understand is how you link drug use to poverty in the first place.  How is the causality there?  What is the causal relationship?  And how do we fix it?

My take is that drug use comes from living in an environment that has a high prevalence and/or an acceptance of drug use present.  Perhaps that is drug use in your own home, by your siblings, or by other folks in the community.  There are exceptions like the kid from the good upper middle class family in the suburbs that turns into a methhead, but we already acknowledge that that is an exception to the poverty rule you describe.

So we have two possible explanations for the link between poverty, drug use, and crime.  Does poverty cause drug use and crime?  Or does drug use cause poverty and therefore perpetuate the cycle of kids of users turning to drugs and crime?  It is the latter in my mind.

I cannot make your kids not use drugs.  I cannot educate your kids.  I cannot send them to good schools and undo the negative influence of them living in a shitty neighborhood where other drug users live or having a shitty parent that is a drug user or alcoholic.  So we have to stop blaming society or poverty for causing the epidemic. 

We need to distinguish between minor possession convictions, minor trafficing, and major trafficing.  We have to distinguish between property crimes and the drug crimes that come with them.  But in the end, if someone is addicted to drugs and is committing other crimes, their asses need to be in jail.  And usually, drug crimes are either because of trafficing, or the drug use is incidental to them committing property crimes.

I think the mandatory sentencing guidelines exist because Liberal judges have created revolving doors on their courtrooms where defendants serve no time and end up back in the court the next week.  It leaves victims feeling helpless and like there is no sense of justice.

Part of the answer is decriminalizing possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use.  Part of the answer is allowing citizens to defend themselves as this helps take away the desire for mandatory sentencing.  And a huge part of the need is to close and seal the borders and deport the non-citizen criminals.  I don’t think anti-poverty programs work, but I do believe that hard labor combined with vocational training and drug treatment has its place.  But I fail to understand how access to TV’s, porn, and so on have any value.  You can have all the text books that you want to study for your GED to your PhD.  I don’t believe that GIs in Iraq have constant access to TVs, have air conditioning, and have semiprivate rooms to sleep in.  Is it cruel and unusual to deny our criminals benefits that our troops don’t have?

BTW, this is the model that Sherriff Joe uses in Maricopa County and people are scared shitless to end up in his tent city.  Tent city is minimum security, mostly for minor drug offenses, DUIs, and so on.  Places where people that occasionally effed up go for minor crimes.  And they don’t want to go back.  EVER.  Especially if they were in tent city in the summer.

It doesn’t start out that way. No one enjoys their first kill, eventually cognitive dissonance fills the gap by making you think that you enjoy it. In other words, if some do enjoy it, that’s not what causes the violence, the enjoyment later comes as an effect of the violence.

This is a product of the thug culture of our inner cities and the glorification of violence.  The low value of human life.  If human life has little value and your street cred does, it makes it much easier to justify committing violence like this.

Subcultural status serves the same purpose as economic status. If I want bigger clients for my firm, I fly first class and drive a nice car to create the impression of professionalism. If I sold drugs and wanted to push bigger volumes, I would cultivate a reputation for ruthlessness. Same thing.

Seriously, that is crazy.  If you want to push bigger volume, you don’t strive for ruthlessness, you strive for consistency.  You consistently deliver the product.  You consistently pay your bills.  You consistently punish those that don’t do business honestly.  You don’t run around killing your suppliers or customers unless they have done something problematic.  And even then, you only do it occasionally because it is designed to act as a deterrent to others.  Sociopaths make poor street level dealers.  Good drug dealers are businessmen.  Good drug dealers are the guys that live in middle or upper middle class neighborhoods and hire minions to push stuff on the streets.  They are hard to spot.  They are hard to catch.  You don’t even know they are criminals until after years of wiretaps and investigations.  And most times they are acquitted because they have very good attorneys.

I have never met a lawyer or realtor that gets clients by flying first class.  They get them by building a reputation for being reliable, doing good work, and serving their customers.  If you do not do the above, flying first class or driving an H2 doesn’t do shit for you.

If drugs were legal, there would be no reason for those gangs to exist. You think they’d get together for purely social reasons? Life is not World of Warcraft.

Bullshit.  Gangs exist because crime exist.  Crime exists because people don’t value the same things most Americans do.  They want an easy road.  Extortion would still exist.  Bribery would still exist.  Illegal gambling.  The gangs would simply engage in other enterprises.  Criminals are not criminals simply because of poverty or drugs.  They are criminals becuase they believe that they can profit from criminal activity.

An entire gang system of blackmarket crime exists for the illegal immigrant trade.  Coyotes smuggling them.  Document folks helping them commit fraud.  Other folks charging protection money.  Folks hiring them.  Businesses avoiding taxes.  Does that go away when drugs go away?

It doesn’t start out that way. No one enjoys their first kill, eventually cognitive dissonance fills the gap by making you think that you enjoy it. In other words, if some do enjoy it, that’s not what causes the violence, the enjoyment later comes as an effect of the violence. Take a look at research studies on war vets.

I simply have to disagree with this point. I’ve dealt with 13 year olds who already took great pleasure in hurting others. And I’ve actually had to protect one child from another 14 year old who was fully intent on maiming the child I was trying to protect.

If drugs were legal, there would be no reason for those gangs to exist. You think they’d get together for purely social reasons? Life is not World of Warcraft.

Just like the Mafia ceased to exist when prohibitition ended. These gangs do a lot of things other than drugs. Robbery, prositiution, Extortion are just some of what they do. If drugs were suddenly legal, they would simply concentrate on their other revenue streams.

So we have two possible explanations for the link between poverty, drug use, and crime.  Does poverty cause drug use and crime?  Or does drug use cause poverty and therefore perpetuate the cycle of kids of users turning to drugs and crime?  It is the latter in my mind.

I don’t think it’s valid to argue weather drugs cause poverty, or poverty causes drugs, or if violence causes either or is caused by either.

I see drugs, violence, and poverty (to a degree) all as symptoms of a value system where the individual feels he his free from all moral constaraints. Gratification is instant. Delayed gratification is never considered. Nobody I want what I want, nodody else’s rights matter.

I simply have to disagree with this point. I’ve dealt with 13 year olds who already took great pleasure in hurting others. And I’ve actually had to protect one child from another 14 year old who was fully intent on maiming the child I was trying to protect.

Just like there are people in our society that like to throw kittens in irrigation canals or mutilate animals.

Perhaps a good question is this; why are so many people getting their jollies with drugs?

Let me draw a picture.  When I had my gallbladder removed, they used morphine to kill the pain.  Other than that, and to make me sleepy, it didn’t do anything for me.

Maybe it’s more magical at a higher dosage.  I’ve also had a little more to drink than I should have.  Again, didn’t do anything for me.

Maybe I’m weird, but I’m going to suggest that it actually isn’t quite normal to want to live life in a haze, and that there’s a reason so many Americans do.

Enter the government schools, particularly John Taylor Gatto’s Underground History of American Education.  You wonder why there is a bar outside many factories?  And a strip club or two?  Why the same holds for university towns?

What would you say if you learned that the point of the government schools was to generate factory workers and customers?  People who would do almost anything to avoid boredom?

No, I do not think that the schools hold the keys to success in this area, as they’ve been working failure for 150 years now.

Bike Bubba said:

Actually, Hairy, the strongest predictor of crime in this country is not poverty, but is rather the family status of the criminal’s mother.

Very good point!  The sexual revolution and the destruction of the family by the war on poverty occurred at the same time, all under the guise of government run compassion. 

The days of having a “bastard” child were gone, rather out of wedlock children became the norm to many.  These children are at a much greater risk.

It is disturbing to see.  At the same time weed, formerly a taboo, is now more acceptable then cigarette smoking.  Weather it should be illegal for adults is open for debate but not in my post here.  However the fact that it is illegal and yet it appears in the lives of middle school or younger children of all classes is very damaging to these very children.  The developing brain is far more susceptible to permanent changes driven by chemical substances.

I can rail against it, but it is the reality and we have to deal with the fact the “feel good” liberal policies and attitudes of the past have decimated many, robbing them of the foundations for success.

Here’s was the real catastrophe. If you look at all the real statistics on black Americans, everything was getting better, better, better, better, better and blacks were succeeding and then bam comes this cultural revolution.

You can not, if you were at the bottom of society, let it all hang out, tune in, turn on, drop out. That was an absolute recipe for failure and it was disastrous for Black America.

Myron Magnet
History Channel “Hippies”.

DKK