Say Anything Blog

This bothers me everytime there’s a shooting. “Why didn’t people fight back?”

Because he had guns and they didn’t. One dude with a gun can take out 6 people rushing him. It’s not fair to the kids to ask why they didn’t fight back. They were scared, terrified, and in danger.

We often see college kids saving each other when they get jumped, and there’s no end to people running off a mother. And we have people who respond (with guns) to fend off armed attackers.

These kids aren’t refusing to fight back out of some silly idea that they’ll get in trouble...but out of the very real idea that theyll become dead.

We’re becoming a society that CAN’T fight back, not one that doesnt want to.

When we look at the “socialist paradise” that is Cuba, we must remember that a sizable share of the misery those people suffer is directly attributable to Che Guevara bringing Castro into power, and giving him many of the policies that have caused so much pain. The real symbol of Che should be the raft, to remind us of all those who have died on rafts in the ocean trying to escape the Cuban nightmare and get to freedom. And had he not been killed, begging for his life like a coward, he would’ve done the same thing again and again in countries all throughout Latin and South America. His actions have inspired terrorists across a continent and caused countless deaths.

You’re right about it starting with the school system. I would argue, however, that it has less to do with a method of teaching that frowns upon even warranted violence, and more with a lack of teaching that instills basic values like self-preservation. If you look closely, you’ll find moral relativism (a.k.a. intellectual passitivity) at the root of all evils. This goes back as far as Burke’s famous quote where evil triumphs when good men do nothing—they do nothing because they believe in nothing.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Disclaimer: The above is meant as a commentary on the issue in the abstract. I also don’t think that charging a gunman with books and a laptop is very wise—the proper action in that case would be to get the fuck out of there.

That said, Liviu Librescu’s actions at VA embodied the qualities of a true hero.

“Behind Communism, Fascism, behind all occupations and invasions lurks a more basic, pervasive evil… a parade of people marching by with raised fists and shouting identical syllables in unision.” - Milan Kundera

Kenny: I think you missed the point.  Those students he killed were dead anyway, but they could have fought, instead of just dying.  If they had done so, it might have changed the outcome, as well.  If you just give in to evil, the outcome is certain.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

Crowd destroys deputy’s cruiser

A hip-hop concert at The Evergreen State College ended in a riot early Friday in which a Thurston County sheriff’s patrol car was overturned and looted.
The female officer arrested a man inside the venue and placed him in the back of the patrol car. Some of the concertgoers were taunting and questioning the actions of the officer
“They didn’t feel the arrest that was being made was fair,”
The crowd continued to grow and became more aggressive.

“Some people blocked the police car that was trying to take the student away,” said Dan Hilden, a 20-year-old Evergreen student who attended the concert.

Concerned for her safety, the officer called for backup and the arrested man was eventually released. The officer took down his name and address so he will be summoned to court at a later time.

“released”? HUH?
Oh, and please note, these are the same idiots who protested at the port of Olympia this year. No doubt in my mind they’ve relations in Berkeley.
Anyway, speaking of not fighting back… what is it telling society when our own law enforcement bow down to the criminals?

Fighting back is a trained response.  In the military you have to train the troops to attack a near ambush.  It is not natural.  The natural response is to run and hide.  The fact that you stand a better chance of living by attacking is irrelevant. 

These kids are no different than any other.  They followed their instincts and died anyways.

I believe that if you had had a few of the kids who had taken martial arts training they would have rushed the shooter and most likely would have survived. 

Having a mental mindset is the important thing.  Taking advantage when their back is turned or they are reloading will more than likely save the day.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Our society suffers greatly from the beliefs that only official action is legitimate and that the state is the source of our earthly salvation. Both liberal and conservative prescriptions for violent crime suffer from the “not in my job description” school of thought regarding the responsibilities of the law-abiding citizen, and from an overestimation of the ability of the state to provide society’s moral moorings. As long as law-abiding citizens assume no personal responsibility for combating crime, liberal and conservative programs will fail to contain it.

-- Jeffrey R. Snyder, A Nation of Cowards

...for great justice

Things have always been the same. The majority of the population has never fought and has always depended on a very small minority to protect them, while they have been afraid of people who will fight. Small shiploads of marauding Vikings ravaged populations. Small Roman armies conquered entire countries. Several million Chinese allowed themselves to be starved to death. 6 million Jews allowed themselves to be marched off to concentration camps. The people that Saddam had forced into his military ranks didn’t even fight during Desert Storm. An airplane full of people will sit and let their plane be hijacked. 3% of the black population marched for their rights. 5% of the population fought in the Revolution. After wars everyone says, “We won”, or “The soldiers lost”.

Teachers are afraid so they would rather have you stand there and get beaten than have to break up a fight.

I agree with Whistler (wow, first time)
I have a black belt in TKD, and understand, a bit, about both sides of the situation..(as much as training can prepare)
When studying for self-defense against a knife the first thing you learn is that you are going to get cut. Period....after you accept that you then decide that you will not die.  You will get cut and you will do what is needed to erase the threat completely.

However, no one knows how they will respond until actually “in” a situation. Pack mentality is contagious, Panic is contagious.  Logic tells us that a single shooter with a gun is limited in the damage that can be done. When panic explodes people react without thought. Flight is the first reaction.  You have to be trained, or have incredible constitution, to instantly turn and move towards the danger...It just is not an inate reaction.

As a Black Belt and as a person that has a conceal and carry permit..I can not with 100% confidence state how I would react in a similar situation.  I know how I would “Like” to react.

If a shooter were to enter the school I teach in, would I react as per Black Belt training or would I be the husband/father/son and join the panic?  I believe it is what enters your mind at that instant.

We had “lock down” training. Officers came in and did a workshop on procedures, should a shooter situation ensue.  I asked what was the expected protocol for teachers should something happen in a crowded lunchroom, hallway or classroom.  The answer was “without training there is no protocol”, in other words...people will do what people will do… which is why I don’t agree that teachers or students should be expected to “carry” without proper training.

I believe that if you had had a few of the kids who had taken martial arts training they would have rushed the shooter and most likely would have survived.

I agree that if some people would have fought back there would have been a better chance of survival. However, it’s easy to say that when you’ve never actually been in a situation like that. If five guys would have rushed him, he definitely would have been taken down. However, chances are that at least two of them would have been shot in the process. Who wants to be the one charging toward the barrel of a gun? Plus in a situation like that you would need multiple unarmed students to work together. Kind of hard to coordinate an attack when panic hits a crowded room. Chances are you’d be a loner.

Over 45 years ago, I and some friends were having lunch in a half-full chinese restaurant in Washington, DC, when two young asian men in slacks and leather jackets walked in, strode right to a table in the back where the manager/owner was sitting and shot him dead. The shooters then turned around and walked back out.

We all just sat there. Everyone. No screams. No one moved, and to this day I don’t know why? It wasn’t fear. That came later. It was like some instinctive shock and it kept us immobile for about a minute… long enough for the killers to leave, or, if they had chosen, to shoot a lot more people.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

“As a conservative, I will not be overly enthusiastic about voting for John McCain on November 4 - but I will be sprinting to the polling place to do so!”
Matthew May, conservative commentator, The American Spectator

[Who wants to be the one charging toward the barrel of a gun?/quote]

The hero.

The one who understands the perils of relying on anyone but yourself.

The one who thinks not of his own life but of yours.

We have a few thousand serving across the water in a land they don’t want to be in, but sense a duty to stand between those that would kill us and the family back home.

Sadly, we rarely recognize them for that.

---

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

I agree with the post, when I heard the teacher, who was up on the stage with the shooter, didn’t die, I wondered where the hell he went?  Did he run and hide?  I think he was shot so maybe he was on the floor injured but, as a teacher (even a TA) wouldn’t you feel a responsibility to try to protect the kids?

The shooter in the Las Vegas casino was taken out by a kid from Crosby (North Dakota); while everyone else was running away, he walked toward the shooter and eventually disarmed (with no weapon of his own).  Now, granted, he was military (either former, or home on leave).

We have lost our ability to react as human beings by a liberal society overburdening us with laws and a MSM media that condemns even national defense, let alone personal defense.

I have been in such situations inside and outside the military, because of my age group I am more inclined to take some kind of action. Fear then action then fear again, but I was raised with a sense that a man must face such situations as a man. But, men are no longer men in our country, they have gotten in touch with their feminine side, they are sensitive, they knit, sew, cook, clean and help raise the children on a daily, intimate basis. In short, they are a weak sister, feminine males unable to understand how to think and act like men.

Yes, there are extremes in all things and that applies to masculine roles as well, but I have witnessed a Westernised neutering of most men since my youth and so how can we expect them to understand how to act like a man in a crisis? All of this has resulted in our viewing anyone that fights back verbally or physically as something bad, having a negative character trait.

So, I am not surprised at all by the result, men have surrendered their manhood for acceptance by women and liberal males, we are mostly pussy whipped poor excuses for men.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

I blame American feminism.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

laydownSally: Very, very good comments! Excellent!

I blame American feminism.

I cannot know if that is tongue in cheek or not, but I feel exactly that way.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Sad fact is that the majority of people are cattle, and will simply stampede away, or even stand dumbly, in the face of attack. Teaching children that it is wrong to fight back against an attacker is not helping this.

It is best explained in hand to hand as the Slice Principle. Someone attacks you with a knife, the first thing you must understand is that you will be cut, and it will hurt. Both of which are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is defeating the attacker. All else is secondary.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

It’s a simple statement of fact.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

laydownSally:
At a very famous Rock Concert near Livermore, California many years ago, I was faced by a guy with a 45 automatic and I watched him pull back the slide and a round went into the chamber. My first reaction was fright and flight, unfortunately, the lives of others were at risk, as the guy was high on drugs. So, I coaxed the guy into trusting me and I was able to arrange for the local Sheriff’s unit to arrest him without anyone getting hurt. Then I felt a little fear again, thinking he could have shot me. But, a good friend, an unarmed security guard and a few others were at risk, so I overcame my fear just long enough to get the job done.

No heroics, no rushing into the barrel of the gun! No jumping on the guy! Nope, I was afraid the whole time and I just thought fast, talked even faster and conned the guy into going with me and accepting the police ambush as nothing for him to fear (It was a fake automobile accident).

My point is this, even when such events take place and a man feels the need to take some kind of action, even if others falsely view his actions as brave, please don’t discount the value of healthy fear and a big mouth in staying alive and responsibility as a strong motivating factor to overcome healthy fear.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It is best explained in hand to hand as the Slice Principle. Someone attacks you with a knife, the first thing you must understand is that you will be cut, and it will hurt. Both of which are irrelevant. The only thing that matters is defeating the attacker. All else is secondary.

That may be very true, but I’ve been there and only after the event was over was I able to think rationally as you suggest above. But, most guys would probably have more courage than I do! My mind kind of goes blank and I charge ahead only think about what to do next.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Neiman,

Thank you, that was very kind.

Glad you were not hurt in Livermore.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Nman, thinking about it rationally is not the point.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I tend to agree with your point here Rob, but have to point out the difference between a bunch of college kids on campus (crap, he’s pissed over a girl—maybe if I just hide under my desk), and a plane full of adults (damn, they want to kill us ALL!). 

Not every campus shooting is flight 93.  God bless em.

I had the chance to stumble upon a small scale fight at the entrance of a Home Depot recently, some of the employees were attempting to stop a shoplifter from leaving.  She was mighty pissed and swinging haymakers, but nobody wanted to take her down.  I did some blocking and holding from the back, just to keep her from getting away while others engaged her from the front.  A store employee said to me “Man, you could really help us out here —we aren’t really allowed to do much”.  I said, “yeah I would but I’ve got my little boy with me (pointing behind the trashcan where I told him to stand and wait) so I can’t do much either.” In the end she ran off when her 2 “sistas” showed up with the cadillac and drove off (police were quickly on their tail).

It was probably 10 minutes later that I remembered that I have pepper-spray on my keychain… would I have used it had I remembered?  I hope not… shit—i might have been there all damn day, making statements to the police and being sued.

My point is, who knows what is gonna happen? A crazy fool with a gun at school aint the same as an islamic idealist taking over a plane.

But yeah, if 20 students had thrown their books at him at one time, then the 2 who rushed him simultaneously could probably have easily disarmed him.  Sigh… only in the movies.

[Feet make good soup!]

As I noted in the post, I wasn’t coming after the students for running from an armed assailant.  Heck, if I was there I probably would have run and hid too.  I’m no warrior.

I guess I was just noting a societal trend.  We seem to have fewer cowboys these days.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

A blessing and a curse, imo.  Cowboys are like cops—we need em around, but wish we didn’t.

[Feet make good soup!]

If there’s a place to run to then that’s for the best.  If there’s not and there’s an opportunity to do something I hope I would be able to take it.

Try to keep your wits about you.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

I agree with R108 and many of the comments here.

I will go a step further… and yes, yes, I see the world through the eyes of MASH’s
Colonel Flagg… it’s all a communist conspiracy.

Bear with me.

Compare and contrast the action-guy / cowboy / combat / private eye series of yester-year to the programming (who is getting programmed?) our populace is subjected to today:

Gunsmoke
Laredo
High Chapparal
Have Gun Will Travel
Wild Wild West
The Rifleman
Wagon Train
Rat Patrol
Peter Gunn
Dragnet

The music was upbeat, confident and the characters depicted as two-fisted, decisive men.

Now compare to what they are feeding the kids today:

Dharma and Greg
Queer Eye for the Straight Guy
Brokedick Mountin’

Remember the 1970’s un-Battle cry: what if they had a war and nobody came?

Recall how the Left has pretty much gradually took control over Hollywood, and, until the advent of the internet, Drudge, Rush and the Blogosphere, had pretty much exclusive control over the National Microphone.

Papers, movies, radio, news and music have become controlled either by the big-wigs in New York City or the moguls in Hollywood, or the Label-suits on Wilshire Boulevard (music)

About the only ones they are trying to make more violent and decisive are females.

Cruise through the channels on any given evening and you will see at least one instance of some testosterone-laden female clocking some estrogen-laden Nancy-boy with a mean right hook.

Then examine these facts against a policy statement made sometime back in the 1930’s or 1920’s…

By these means the patriotism of youth for their Capitalistic flag can be dulled to a point where they are no longer dangerous as soldiers. While this might require many decades to effect, Capitalisms short term view will never envision the lengths across which we can plan.

Whether the military political types understand or even are willing to admit, military training and preparation for combat is ALL about psychology.

What is the difference between the French Poilu
“Sauve qui peut, faut se debrouiller,” (Save yourself, look out for number one) of 1940 versus the stalwart Japanese who would often fight to the last man?

Some can be attributed to training, which is at bottom, psychological conditioning to turn from the innate unwillingness to kill or risk getting killed to the willing and spirited intention to do both.

But it is very, very difficult to turn around a lifetime of wussifying in 6 or 12 or 24 weeks.  In wartime, the typical training is abbreviated due to the need for bodies at the front.

The American fighting man has done very well against the communists and other foes over the generations, but with the general pussification of the society, I wonder how much longer that will continue.

Certainly, I don’t think general willingness to stand by and allow oneself or others to die without a fight is by accident.

...for great justice

Zig,

Once again you manage to say, in a much more precise and eloquent way, what I’m sure most of us have thought.

Certainly, I don’t think general willingness to stand by and allow oneself or others to die without a fight is by accident.

Most certainly by design.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

The hero.

The one who understands the perils of relying on anyone but yourself.

The one who thinks not of his own life but of yours.

We have a few thousand serving across the water in a land they don’t want to be in, but sense a duty to stand between those that would kill us and the family back home.

Sadly, we rarely recognize them for that.

I agree with you but you’re comparing apples to sky scrapers. As someone mentioned above, soldiers need to be conditioned to fight rather then flee. You can’t compare highly-trained and heavily armed soldiers to a bunch of untrained and unarmed college students. All I’m saying is that if you’re unarmed and don’t know what you’re doing, chances are you’ll just be another dead body if you charge a shooter. Having been robbed at gun point before, I can tell you that the usual first reaction is to freeze, shortly followed by panic. By then it’s usually too late.

But, men are no longer men in our country, they have gotten in touch with their feminine side, they are sensitive, they knit, sew, cook, clean and help raise the children on a daily, intimate basis.

Neiman, I agree with you that many males no longer undertake the responsibility that comes with being a man, but are you actually claiming that performing household work somehow makes someone less of a man? If raising my children on a “daily, intimate basis” makes me a pussy, then so be it.

You can’t compare highly-trained and heavily armed soldiers to a bunch of untrained and unarmed college students.

Yes, let us compare highly-trained and heavily armed soldiers to a bunch of untrained and unarmed college students.

What made the students that way?

WHO made the students that way?

It used to be that it was acceptable to fight, even expected.  But over the years it has been changed from being disruptive and perhaps bad upbringing to a mortal sin, punishable by being declared ADD and fed a cocktail of Luvox, Ritalin and other SSRIs

geoci ties.c om/juri st6/drugkids.h tm#drugs

(why has this URL been blacklisted?)

The psycho-babble drumbeat kids hear these days is don’t fight, the government will protect you which is a complete and utter lie.

More importantly is the admonition don’t fight, don’t resist.

Not so long ago young boys in the country would and did bring their squirrel gun to school to go hunting before or after school.  Kids in the city attended shooting clubs.

Talk about the ready availability of firearms to kids.

Hell, it was a way of life.

As a result of cowboys being able to shoot and other Americans pursuing hunting and other shooting sports we entered WWI and WWII with a great advantage.  Even in the air, pilots who’d had excellent marksmanship skills excelled in air combat.  Why then would it make sense, from a national defense standpoint, to disarm and feminize American youth?

Have you ever heard of the buzz-phrase:
Creating norms of non-possession?

It should be a red flag to anyone familiar with Soviet front groups as a camouflage term for civilian disarmament across the free world (since the policy has long been in place in non-free countries) foisted on us via front groups like Ploughshares and IANSA
[PDF file]

Feminism emasculates our males, and via PC speech and conduct codes, places them in terror of she-bitches in school and in the workplace.  Pretty soon there is a conditioned response in all areas of life to not fight, not defend.

Fairly soon, instead of the everyday male being able and expected to fight when called upon, it is the very few bearing arms under government supervision.

This makes no sense from a free nation standpoint, but makes every bit of sense if you wish to centralize control and cull any remaining rams out from the flock of sheep.

...for great justice

Andrew,

I don’t disagree with you, in that soldiers (and Police and Firemen) are certainly more trained to deal with some adverse conditions.

Even so, when an individual fron the US Military encounters a dangerous situation, no training in the world can prepare them to risk their own lives to protect someone else.

My comment should in no way should be construed as it is only the Military that are Heros.

Anyone who, when faced with the possibility of death, is undetered and willing to face hazard for the sake of another is undoubtably a hero.

But while some in within the US are canonized for their heroism, those in the military are largely forgotten.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Getting in touch with my feminine side

Pshaw!

Whenever I wanted to get in touch with my feminine side, it usually involved dinner, a movie and some strategically-placed birth control.

...for great justice

MZ, were I to ask you what happened to the Wobblies you would actually know what I was talking about. Refreshing!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

I think I have a little experience here . .

I went to Virginia Tech for the past 4 years.  The year that I was to graduate, in fact only a month or two before hand, the biggest school massacre in American history took place.  Now, during that shooting, very few ‘stood’ up to the shooter, only to be mowed down moments later.  One or two teachers did this I believe.  Now I wasn’t in any of the buildings where it happened, but I can sure tell you that I’d be cowering under a desk, a body, a bookbag, anything to somewhat shield me from the flying bullets.

The most annoying thing to happen afterwards, other than the media circus that ensued, was the sheer number of people who said, “If I was there, I would have done something.” Some of these people were good people that cared, others were just unthoughtful, arrogant schmucks.  Let’s be honest, if someone brings a gun into a situation and you are otherwise unarmed and surprised, your first instinct is to duck and cower.  You’d think out of the 32 people that Cho shot, there’d be one or two students to resist.  There weren’t.

With respect to this article, I don’t care if you grew up when they expelled for fighting or if hey didn’t.  If someone is shooting at you in a classroom, you’re doing the same thing the guy next to you is; surviving.  And rushing the armed guman in an attempt to overpower him is not the best path for coming out of the thing alive.

This is all just our imaginations. This recent school shooting was in a “gun free zone”. You see, it could not have happened. These dead people do not exist.

Thank the liberals for this reality. They’re easily noticeable because they happen to call themselves “reality based”.

“Reality based” liberals = ignoring the dead, ignoring reality.

And rushing the armed guman in an attempt to overpower him is not the best path for coming out of the thing alive.

Probably not true.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Jeez, while I tried to read every comment here, I might have missed any mention of the students or professors being armed with...gasp..a pistol.

Pistol...? GUN..a deadly weapon...something to use to shoot...kill, maim, or stop someone from hurting, killing your friends, classmates or yourself.

Did I miss all of that?

Idiots and Liberals, I’m surrounded by them.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

Can anyone figure out if this Ray guy was trying to make a point?

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Andrew:

are you actually claiming that performing household work somehow makes someone less of a man? If raising my children on a “daily, intimate basis” makes me a pussy, then so be it.

No, I respect fathers that are close to their children and even ‘help out’ around the house; I was only using that example in a general way to denote the widespread feminization of men. It is the natural role of man to kill the game (work) and protect the pack (family/country) and be the hunter/gatherer; and now our society appears to have moved to males that mostly nurture, and we have weak, girly men unable to take action.

Jesse: Yes, the first reaction is towards fear and flight, that is normal, a healthy first reaction. But, as soon as you are out of the direct line of fire or in position wherein you can do something, men naturally take action - they overcome their fears long enough to plan how to protect others weaker than themselves and to stop the carnage. In my case above, my first reaction was to move out of the line of fire (fear and flight), then when there was not an instant shot and I realized I could still be shot, I moved back in front of the guy and started a conversation to defuse the situation. In a case facing a guy with a knife I simply determined that if I jumped him fast enough I would minimize the wounds to my own body and have a reasonable chance to disarm him. Always healthy fear, a desire for flight first, and then direct, often highly risky action, taking responsibility for a situation and doing something.

In such cases, even where you were at, one professor, a Holocaust survivor blocked a door to prevent the guy from getting in and he got shot and died, but despite his strong fears he took action, he took personal responsibility and moved to save lives. The other men on campus in a position to do so were simply not emotionally equipped to deal with their fear and ‘do something,’ ‘anything,’ to stop this guy. I am not judging them, just observing that the subject of this thread has a bearing on your situation, people today are just not emotionally equipped to fight back.

It is not just about dealing with a shooter. How many men today are willing to risk their lives, knowingly going into harms way to save others at risk? Thank God there are some still around!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Even so, when an individual fron the US Military encounters a dangerous situation, no training in the world can prepare them to risk their own lives to protect someone else.

WTF?

Of course training prepares them for this.  They train all the time just for that purpose. 

That is the primary reason for much of the training.  You take them out on exercises, you deprive them of sleep so that they are stressed out and than you simulate combat.  You make them react the way you want them to and than you make them do it again. 

Do you really think that soldiers are so much different from the average person that they naturally will go against their instincts? 

What seperates them is that they are willing to do the training.

No, it is a natural instinct to protect your family and yourself.

It is an unnatural instinct to risk your life to benefit others, some of whom you don’t even like.

That’s why it takes so much more training for soldiers than a civilian.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Lestat:

Do you really think that soldiers are so much different from the average person that they naturally will go against their instincts? 

What seperates them is that they are willing to do the training.[/quote]

You just answered your own question. The fact these people are willing to undergo the training is that for the most part they have the right instincts, they have the desire to fight back and they want the training to help them succeed.

---

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It is the natural role of man to kill the game (work) and protect the pack (family/country) and be the hunter/gatherer…

Got news for ya pal---we’re not a hunter/gatherer culture anymore.

Most conservatives want to drag us back the 18th Century---you’e trying to drag us back to the 1st.

Most conservatives want to drag us back the 18th Century

Is that so?

How ridiculously funny.

You’re worth a cheap laugh at best, Jack. You have that going for you.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with recognizing that there is a bit of nature behind traditional gender roles.

Mothers tend to be more nurturing, fathers tend to be more career orientated.  It seems to me that liberals have no problems jumping on these stereotypes when it comes to family law issues.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Got news for ya pal---we’re not a hunter/gatherer culture anymore.

Men, real men still have those inborn instincts, it is part and parcel of their hormones, their very nature as men. Had you read more carefully, to help people like you, I explained that “It is the natural role of man to kill the game (work) and protect the pack (family/country) and be the hunter/gatherer…,” and in brackets I used words to indicate the modern world equivalence. There are some things that should be timeless, appropriate in all generations, and that includes the protective nature of men, to be ready to fight back against evil of all kinds, but liberals in the Donohue dress wearing model want to exchange roles with women.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Most conservatives want to drag us back the 18th Century

Actually, Jack, I believe you’ve got this exactly backwards.  After all, it is the liberals who are constantly inventing ever more reasons and an ever expanding list of organizations and institutions by which to interfere with and manipulate the knowledge, beliefs, behaviors and possessions of the rest of us.

As noted elsewhere, liberals are not particularly determined about living up to the goals, objectives, and ideals they espouse with such public piety, but y’all certainly have no compunction about insisting that the rest of us pick up the tab for your self-righteous ideology and “fairness.”

If asked, I suspect most conservatives would be quite content to have liberals keep your sanctimony out of our lives and out of our wallets.  If you think the UN is such a worthy endeavor… you pay for it.  If you feel that traditional heroism is passe and unworthy of your more nuanced, metro-sexuals ideals, the least you could do is stop trying to impose your faux moral equivalence on the rest of us, and get the fuck out of the way.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Most conservatives want to drag us back the 18th Century

Not true, but you lefties, with your globalwarmingism, want to drag us back to the Stone Age.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

you lefties, with your globalwarmingism, want to drag us back to the Stone Age.

Or at least, not stand in the way of those who want to take us all back to the seventh century…

For any voter trying to choose between the two candidates for commander in chief, there is no better test than this: When American strategy in a critical theater was up for grabs, John McCain proposed a highly unpopular and risky path, which he accurately predicted could lead to success. Barack Obama proposed a popular and politically safe route that would have led to an unnecessary and debilitating American defeat at the hands of al Qaeda.

Frederick W. Kagan

Regarding the feasibility of the chance of fighting back against an school shooter.

According to Besen, before Odighizuwa saw Bridges and Gross with their weapons, Odighizuwa set down his gun and raised his arms like he was mocking people.[14] Besen, a former marine and police officer in Wilmington, North Carolina, then charged, got into a scuffle with Odighizuwa, and knocked him to the ground. Bridges and Gross then arrived with their guns once Odighizuwa was tackled.[15] Additional witnesses at the scene stated they did not see Bridges or Gross with their guns at the time Besen started subduing Odighizuwa.[16]

Versions of the events vary (which isn’t surprising.) What is improtant is that this Besen and Gross were unarmed but were watching for an opportunity to do what they could.  When the opportunity came up they took advantage of it, possibly saving their lives and the lives of many others.  One of these people had the government training, one of them apparently did not.  No matter, you can get the training as a civilian in firearms and martial arts schools.

I’ve read that there are studies that show that resisting against even an armed attacker is a better way to come out alive.

Most gunshot wounds are not fatal.  However cowering and letting the jerk line you up is going to give him time to aim.  Fighting is more than likely to result in an unaimed, non lethal wound.  It should also make it less likely you’ll the jerk will have a chance to finish you off, assuming that you get some help from the others of course.

Of course if everyone were to start fighting back by throwing lap tops (remember this is handgun range, likely under 6 feet) and books it’s more likely that a person jumping him won’t get shot.  Plus throwing a book or laptop or shoe at him is going to more than likely make him miss you when he shoots.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Every armchair Rambo loves to chime in after the bodies have grown cold to bitch why a bunch of 19yr old college kids didn’t rush some maniac firing at random.

And you would have been the manly man, running right towards the shooter?  Fucking please.

I see your local cromags here have already tried their best “its teh libruls fault” line.

Tell you what, why not picket the students funerals ala Fred Phelps, and hold huge signs declaring these poor kids as cowards for not fighting back.  You are blaming them for being killed, real classy but not surprising at all

You have no fucking shame, asshole. 

I

No, hater, it’s the lefties who deprived the students of their Second Amendment right to be able to defend themselves who are responsible for this slaughter, and all the others like it.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

The first responsibility goes to the nutjob shooter, who it appears was a leftie liberal himself. 

Then it goes to the leftie liberals.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Awaken,

Go back to sleep!  It’s clear you have nothing meaningful, or even modestly interesting, to add to this, or any other discussion.

Your deliberate distortion of what was said before you got here, and your disparagement of heroism in general, are needlessly offensive and obscene.  There are people here, from both sides of the partisan aisle, who have demonstrated their honor and their heroism long before you were a glint in your father’s eye… or a drizzle between your mother’s legs.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Wow, some real geniuses here.  It’s the lefties fault, just like everything else in the world.  Standard moron response, but it’s not surprising either.

I am so SURE that some untrained 19 year old kid with a gun in his backpack will not only be able to reach for this weapon, take the safety off, aim, fire, and kill the gunman in the blink of an eye just like that while not only being shot at, but in a crowded auditorium with people running, screaming, and they will emerge unscathed and with a clear shot.

You wingnuts have seen entirely too much TV.  Really.  It’s not like that in real life, moron.

If the element of surprise is working against you, dickhead, you don’t have a chance.  These kids did not have a chance, so quit fucking blaming them.

You know who deserves the blame you stupid prick, the SHOOTER!

Awaken: Speaking to the general issue of this thread, that being a society that doesn’t seem to be willing to fight back and the mention of the university considering their assault does not equal blaming the students that did not fight back. The discussion is why, it is to examine what has happened in our society that has neutered our spirit of self-defense and even self-preservation. The fact virtually no one fought back is the main concern, it is not a question of cowardice, but a lack of desire to resist evil.

As to your silly, “you would have been the manly man, running right towards the shooter?  Fucking please,” Chief R.Z. and many others here have done just that whether in the military or as civilians. So, you are wrong that given the circumstances those speaking to this issue or at SA generally would not have fought back.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Hater: An armed society is a peaceful society.  Do you really think that leftie coward who slaughtered the unarmed students would have gone there if he knew an unknown number of them were armed? Why do you assume someone who carries a gun is untrained in its use?  Actually, the opposite is true, and only an idiot would carry his weapon in a backpack.  You just don’t know what you are talking about, which is typical of you leftie haters.  All emotion, no brains.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

You wingnuts have seen entirely too much TV.  Really.  It’s not like that in real life, moron.

If the element of surprise is working against you, dickhead, you don’t have a chance.  These kids did not have a chance, so quit fucking blaming them.

Read my comments above, wherein I described how I have been in exactly that type of situation, and I was very freaking surpised with a gun fully loaded pointed at my head about 5-7 feet away. I noted that the initial reaction is fear and flight, but if not shot immediately there is time to plan a different scenario that stops the shooter and saves lives. In my days, I am 65, we were taught to resist evil and even place our lives in the line of fire if it means saving lives; whereas in our modern world that code of conduct has been lost and people are unwilling to risk anything to stop evil. (No one is blaming the students, so stop cursing and pretending offense)

The point Rob raised has widsespread implications.
America when attacked on 9/11 for a few days were willing to resist the evil of Islamic terrorism, but after some time passed by and they discovered there was a price to pay to defend liberty, they were no longer willing to pay any price to defend our homeland and to defend liberty for an oppressed people in Afghanistan and Iraq. That is what Rob is talking about, not rushing a shooter at a university, but our national unwillingness to fight back and resist evil if it costs us anything, if there is any risk involved, any price to pay.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

Bat: Illegitimis non carborundum.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

Lack of desire to resist evil?  What kind of stupid fucking response is that?  A society that has neutered our spirit of self defense?  What the fuck mumbo jumbo is that?  Oh, wait, never mind, it’s the liberals fault, it’s the medias fault.  Gotcha.

Look at this way, idiots;

It’s a boring ass college lecture, you and 200 other kids are there.  Blah blah, lecture, boring.  Cold outside, your mind is wandering off.

Now, all of a sudden some lunatic bursts in with no fucking warning at all and starts firing.  People are getting cut down, shot, blood, screaming, confusion, panic.

Gee, I suppose it’s a really convenient time to engage evil???  Do you think ANYONE has that thought in their heads??????

Or maybe, just maybe that self preservation thing we have inside us tells us to get the FUCK OUT OF THERE, UNLESS you have been SPECIFICALLY trained to deal with a situation like that, ala, military, police, etc.

And you wonder why I think you are all morons?  You make it easy.

Oh, wait, never mind, it’s the liberals fault, it’s the medias fault.  Gotcha

And Clinton. Don’t forget Clinton. He’s to blame for everything.

Gee, I suppose it’s a really convenient time to engage evil???  Do you think ANYONE has that thought in their heads??????

Or maybe, just maybe that self preservation thing we have inside us tells us to get the FUCK OUT OF THERE, UNLESS you have been SPECIFICALLY trained to deal with a situation like that, ala, military, police, etc.

As I recall, Mr. Todd Beamer and the other passengers on United Flight 93 weren’t trained as police or military.  Beamer was a database sales engineer who taught Sunday School.  He also gave his life to prevent Flight 93 from being flown into the White House or the US Capitol building.

And you wonder why I think you are all morons?  You make it easy

Actually, No!  It probably hasn’t crossed anyone’s mind to wonder what you’ve thought… or even whether you’re at all capable of thought in the first place.  Clearly nothing you’ve written here would lead anyone to believe it’d be worth the effort.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

And Clinton. Don’t forget Clinton. He’s to blame for everything.

“Jack” finally got something right.  Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

If life doesn’t begin at conception, why do they call it birth control?

Or maybe, just maybe that self preservation thing we have inside us tells us to get the FUCK OUT OF THERE, UNLESS you have been SPECIFICALLY trained to deal with a situation like that, ala, military, police, etc.

Only those with special training ever defend themselves?

You say things such as this . . . but still expect us to take you seriously?

Flight 93 was TOTALLY different, you clueless idiot.

They had time to figure out what was going on because they knew other planes were being hijacked.  Not much time, but time nonetheless, it wasn’t all over in 60 seconds and on a fucking plane you HAVE NOWHERE TO GO!  They knew death was inevitable and decided to fight back, rah rah, good for them. 

And it was a case of what, like 20 dudes versus 4 hijackers with knives?  Different set of odds then say, oh I dunno, one crazy asshole with five fucking guns versus 200 kids without?

You’ll have to use that ten watt brain a little harder sparky.

Gee, I suppose it’s a really convenient time to engage evil???  Do you think ANYONE has that thought in their heads??????

The thread is about a society that doesn’t fight back, it is not about one incident on one day of the year, but a change in our culture over time that results in no one taking any action at all, because they didn’t have the instincts to fight back.

Use your head a little, this is a general topic about a change in our culture and not an attack on any one involving a single incident. Grow up!

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

No, McKrackenAss, I didn’t say ONLY those with train