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Sunday, November 04, 2007

Anti-Nuclear Activists Lobbying Senator Dorgan

In the Grand Forks Herald today is an op/ed from Union of Concerned Scientists flak Robert Nelson (UCS managed to get Fargo Democrat Carolyn Nelson to slap her name on the by-line as well for some local flair) who is applauding Senator Byron Dorgan for his request for a thorough review into the nuclear mishap which took place at the Minot Air Force Base.  Which is understandable as that situation should be reviewed (though I’m sure the Air Force brass didn’t need a grandstanding Byron Dorgan to tell them that).

The other intent of the op/ed, aside from sucking up to Byron, is to encourage the Senator to oppose President Bush’s push to upgrade this country’s nuclear weapons arsenal from his position on the pertinent Senate appropriations committee.  This attempt by the UCS to exert influence over Senator Dorgan should trouble each and every citizen of North Dakota for two reasons.

First, the UCS’ anti-nuclear agenda is one not shared by most North Dakotans.  According to the UCS, America would be “safer” without a nuclear arsenal, but that view (shared by many on the far-left of America’s political spectrum) is predicated upon the idea that we don’t have a right to have so many nuclear weapons because other countries don’t have them and that America does intimidates them.  But aren’t we the “good guys?” Certainly we shouldn’t be in the habit of angering our international neighbors if we can help it, but the truth is that countries all over the globe have nuclear weapons.  And as long as other nations have them, we should have nukes too and should keep our nuclear arsenal in good repair and up to date.

The UCS subscribes to some sort of utopian world view which would have us believe that by ridding ourselves of our nuclear weapons other nations will do the same, and we can all live in peace.  Which would be a nice thing to believe, but it just isn’t true.  If we were to divest ourselves of our nuclear capabilities certain other interests would see it as an opening.  An opportunity to take down a weakened rival, not a prompt for peace.  What’s more, the maintenance of the nuclear arsenal already stationed in North Dakota is an important part of the mission of this state’s military bases.  If those nukes went away, so would a lot of the reason for the existence of our bases.  And I know how passionate most North Dakotans are about keeping our military bases.

Second, the UCS’ rather extremist agenda doesn’t just extend to nuclear weapons.  They also oppose the use of nuclear power for energy generation.  With the entire nation looking for ways to produce energy without produce a lot of pollution, nuclear energy is an alternative that comes up a lot.  And North Dakota is in a prime position to provide that kind of power, but if Senator Dorgan becomes susceptible to the manipulations of groups like UCS he could prevent nuclear power from coming to this state.  Which would, in turn, prevent the jobs and economic stimulus that would go with those nuke plants from coming to the state as well.

I think we, as North Dakotans, need to tell Senator Dorgan to ignore the overtures of groups like UCS and do what’s best for North Dakota, and America, when it comes to nuclear issues.  One easy way is to use this web application the NDGOP has set up to contact our elected leaders.

Comments

Avatar for halatbis

On September 30 the UCS ran a full page ad in the Bis. Trib. with a nice picture of Sen. Dorgan and a quote from him about nonproliferation of weapons.  This was a nice promotion for Dorgan (Dove of peace kind of thing).  I looked at the UCS website:  UCS is based out of Cambridge, Ma. and Berkeley, Ca. and they actively oppose several things in addition to nukes--they oppose all carbon based energy sources for elect. generation.  That is the future of ND development, as we have experienced these past few years.  Where is Dorgan? Does he agree with his buddies?

halatbis on November 4, 2007 at 11:44 am
Avatar for Lestat

But aren’t we the “good guys?”

It’s dangerous thinking to assert that we are always the “good guys”.  It is a way to stifle critical thinking and review of our policies.  It creates the mentality that “if we do it, it must be right.”

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Avatar for Scrapiron

Since several other countries have nuclear weapons the United States wouldn’t last 30 days without them and neither would any country that has a resource that some of the nuts with nuclear weapons want or need. We are all that stands between non-nuclear free countries and the dictators with nuclear weapons and that’s a fact. The democrat regressives are wrong about everything and not smart enough to know that every word they speak (in writing and on the air) against the country is recorded somewhere and will come back to bite them on the ass when the war comes to this country and it will come with their help. Politicians, traitors, news reporters and left wing regressive activist will be first up the tree on the end of a rope. Even the most stupid dictator/Islamist will not want them around.

Scrapiron on November 4, 2007 at 01:11 pm

It’s dangerous thinking to assert that we are always the “good guys”.

“Dangerous thinking”???  More info from the leftie thought police.  Why would we want lefties in charge of anything?


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 02:06 pm
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My “good guys” comments wasn’t supposed to be a blanket endorsement of every policy this country has ever had, but rather a simple recognition of our country’s inherent goodness.

Which liberals like Lestat find themselves incapable of recognizing.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on November 4, 2007 at 02:43 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Damn right I don’t recognize inherant goodness.  There is no such thing. 

Our country has been good because good people have stood up. 

Slavery didn’t end on its own, it ended because good people opposed it. 

Civil rights weren’t granted everybody because of inherant goodness.  The were granted because good people fought for them.

Its beliefs like yours that are dangerous.  You believe that this country is “inherantly good” therefore whatever we do on the world stage must be right.  It’s how you justify torture.  It’s similar to the Nixonian axiom, “If the President does it, it can’t be illegal.”

That simply isn’t true.

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 03:58 pm

Damn right I don’t recognize inherant goodness.  There is no such thing.

Typical leftie cynicism.  That’s why you feel so good about your totalitarian ideology.  Very revealing.

Its beliefs like yours that are dangerous.

Yes, believing in the goodness of people is “dangerous”. /sarcasm

Maybe your leftie thought police will knock that out of the proletariat during that dictatorship you believe in, along with the “dangerous thinking” you fear so much.  It’s individual independence, btw, the foundation of our country.
It’s not surprising you hate it.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 04:09 pm
Avatar for Lestat

That’s why you feel so good about your totalitarian ideology.

It’s you who are the totalitarian.  I want a check on executive power.  You are the one who would give away all civil liberties and want to expand the American empirt.

Yes, believing in the goodness of people is “dangerous”. /sarcasm

You’re a fool. The belief that America is inherantly good is asinine.  Goodness takes effort.  You should understand this as a Christian.  You do believe in original sin don’t you?  Or do you only believe in some parts of Christianity?

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 05:38 pm

You are the one who would give away all civil liberties and want to expand the American empirt.

Your argument is faulty when you make up your opponent’s positions.

likwidshoe on November 4, 2007 at 05:42 pm
Avatar for HG

Could someone define what they mean by goodness?

HG on November 4, 2007 at 06:20 pm

You’re a fool. The belief that America is inherantly good is asinine.

That says a lot more about leftiethink than it does about America.  You wonder why we don’t want your type running this country?  Talk about asinine.

Could someone define what they mean by goodness?

It’s the opposite of Marxism.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 06:30 pm

Could someone define what they mean by goodness?

Let’s start with the countries we’ve CONQUERED and then given back.

What other people in history have done that?

golfmann on November 4, 2007 at 06:34 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Let’s start with the countries we’ve CONQUERED and then given back.
What other people in history have done that?

I don’t disagree that America has done good in the world, alot of it.  I disagree with the idea that we are inherantly good.  That leads to the idea that we can’t do wrong.  We can do wrong and must be vigilant against it.

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 06:40 pm
goon on November 4, 2007 at 06:47 pm

You’re a fool. The belief that America is inherantly good is asinine.

Good to know the hate America think is still out there…


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goon on November 4, 2007 at 06:47 pm

I disagree with the idea that we are inherantly good. The idea that humans are free is inherently good; the idea that govt should be limited is inherently good; the idea that all humans are created equal is inherently good. These are the founding principles of America. That leads to the idea that we can’t do wrong. Only for you. We can do wrong and must be vigilant against it. We have been, and continue to be, because we are inherently good.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 06:50 pm

Lestat: You changed the statement from “We are the good guys” to “We are inherently good” which wasn’t so good of you, but it still works.  Nice try.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 06:52 pm
Avatar for HG

Goodness is inherent in the premise from which our government and laws proceed.

People who acknowledge and accept this premise are, relatively speaking, good people.

Our system of government acknowledges the bad in people as well and therefore checks and balances are built into it. 

IMO, the best in people is brought out by our system of government.  But, the more naturalism, relativism and socialism becomes acceptable, the less the premise of our republic is tolerable.  I fail to see how our liberty and the goodness of people can continue in a country that abandons the foundation of its very existence.

HG on November 4, 2007 at 06:56 pm
Avatar for Lestat

Rob’s the one who used the phrase “inherant goodness”.  Why don’t you read the thread before commenting.

But I would argue when he was calling us the “good guys” it wasn’t as opposed to anybody else.  It had essentially the same meaning.

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 06:56 pm
Avatar for HG

Why don’t you read the thread before commenting.

I did. Good or bad, if America is to continue to exist in this world nuclear arms are necessary.  Saying that we are the “good guys” doesn’t mean we are incapable of doing wrong.

HG on November 4, 2007 at 07:04 pm

But aren’t we the “good guys?”

This is Rob’s actual quote from the article, so I guess it was you who didn’t read it.  They aren’t the same thing, though.  “Inherent"(the correct spelling) means that the goodness is a fundamental aspect of America, which is true.  Being the good guys means that we are doing good things. Our being the good guys does in fact flow from the inherent goodness of America as a nation.  It’s a big concept to live up to, but we are always trying to be better at it(except during Dem administrations, when we try to live down to lower standards).

We have welcomed millions of legal immigrants into our country(you know, that “huddled masses, yearning to be free” thing?), which is inherently good; we have freed millions from enslavement all over the world, which is inherently good; we stand in the way of dictators who would enslave their citizens, which is inherently good.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 07:08 pm
Avatar for HG

Just curious, why is a dictatorship inherently bad?  Why is a democracy inherently good? 

Without accepting that liberty, life, and the pursuit of happiness are endowed by our Creator, I fail to see an answer to these questions that is not completely subjective.

HG on November 4, 2007 at 07:19 pm

HG you are wrong. Obviously you are conducting your thought experiment under the influence of your bias. Or you haven’t even tried to think of it and you just typed that anyway. If you have, lack of imagination, if you haven’t tried to imagine an alternative, don’t say you have.

I think its clear that people like rob and myself, who don’t believe in God, still believe there are “objective” (scare quotes - hg, qualify what you mean by ‘objective’wink reasons to proffer democracy to a dictatorship. Provide positive argument why belief in a Christian God makes it possible and non-belief makes it not possible, save through subjectivity. Inter-subjectivity, the quality of being public or available to more than one subject, is sufficient, no? What else might there be, a God’s eye view? How is this to ground the superior justness of democracy? Let’s say the dictatorship is run according to the exact words of that divine creator you refer to? What then? Still democracy would win?

Explain.


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 4, 2007 at 07:41 pm
Avatar for Lestat

This is Rob’s actual quote from the article, so I guess it was you who didn’t read it.

Read Rob’s posts.  I obviously read all of it because I commented on his article saying we are the good guys and I commented on his post using the phrase inherent goodness.

Just curious, why is a dictatorship inherently bad?  Why is a democracy inherently good?

Neither is inherently good or bad.  Both systems have done good and evil.  The perfect form of government is probably the enlightened despot.  However it is exceedingly rare.  Democracy’s best feature is not that it always does good, but instead that it is more difficult to do evil.  As the old axiom goes, “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all others.”

Goodness takes effort, there is nothing inherent about it.

Lestat on November 4, 2007 at 07:59 pm

Let’s say the dictatorship is run according to the exact words of that divine creator you refer to? What then?

It’s a verbal delusion you have there, Sparkie; you can put those words together, but they have no meaning in reality.  Read some Lao Tzu sometime.  To accumulate virtue, people have to choose it by their own free will, and they have to have a real choice.  If they are forced to do it, it isn’t virtue, it’s slavery.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 08:00 pm

The perfect form of government is probably the enlightened despot.

This reveals you as a Marxist who really doesn’t trust the people to make the right choices; you fancy yourself the “enlightened despot"(an oxymoron, btw), and think you know better than they do how they should live.  Hundreds of millions have been slaughtered due to that premise.  You are the embodiment of evil, Lestat, just like your screen name.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 4, 2007 at 08:03 pm
Avatar for HG

Sparkie, without moral absolutes there is no inherent right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  There is only what the gov’t may say is individual rights and therefore such rights are granted by gov’t and can be taken away for whatever reason gov’t prefers. 

As to democracy to dictatorship the question was posed to those like yourself.  Feel free to answer it if you wish.

HG on November 4, 2007 at 08:08 pm
Avatar for HG

HG you are wrong.

Prove it Sparkie.  Let’s have your answer.

HG on November 4, 2007 at 08:18 pm

hg

without moral absolutes there is no inherent right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

I think that’s naive. Anyone who has looked at another human being with simple appreciation for the fact that they, too, are like that… should know what I mean. Unless you wanted to rob that person, which I wouldn’t put past some of you. As far as I know, THERE ARE NO MORAL ABSOLUTES - they haven’t guested on Larry King Live yet. We seem to be getting along just fine without them. Odd, no?


Yun Chu said, “You must strictly not express in words what is very significant. Both dragon and snake are killed in one blow.”

Sparkie Arbuckle on November 5, 2007 at 06:53 am

As far as I know, THERE ARE NO MORAL ABSOLUTES…

Nothing could more clearly express the limits of your knowledge, Sparkie.  Like most ignorant people, you arrogantly deny anything beyond your limited scope.


Hope and change, in a free world, are the private possessions of motivated individuals.

robert108 on November 5, 2007 at 08:08 am
Avatar for HG

Anyone who has looked at another human being with simple appreciation for the fact that they, too, are like that… should know what I mean.

You mean you get the sense that the other is your equal? 

So I guess some things are self-evident after all, eh Sparkie? 

This is exactly what the founders observed as well.  All men are created equal.  And if equal, then all have the same right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  So I guess there is something innate in humanity that recognizes the equality of each individual.  That common morality is proof of a universal moral principle.

HG on November 5, 2007 at 03:56 pm
Avatar for HG

We seem to be getting along just fine without them. Odd, no?

Not really.  We are getting along with them.  Moral absolutes are essential to our form of government and the rights protected by government.  It is the infiltration of naturalism, relativism and socialism that threatens the foundation of our nation and subsequently American society.  So, no Sparkie, we haven’t been getting along without moral absolutes and I doubt we would for very long.

HG on November 5, 2007 at 04:20 pm
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