Say Anything Blog

Ethanol is just another welfare program, the same as all the rest of the so-called “alternative energy” programs are.  They simply redistribute money from the taxpayers to the special interest groups, with a net loss to the economy, because those products only incur debt.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Ethanol is not as good of a choice as other blends.
It lacks the BTU value & requires more volumn to make the same energy.
THat translates to lower fuel mileage.
It’s kinda like the new light bulbs the green freaks pushed and the electric cars.
THe bulbs will poison the environment with mercury & the used car batteries will flood the environment with PCB’s.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Of course, ethanol fuel blends are only cheaper because taxpayers - who are also the same people who buy the fuel - paid for it to be cheaper.  So they’re “saving” at the pump because they already paid a portion of the fuels price in taxes.

Eureka!  I’ve found the secret of affording that new plasma TV I’ve had my eye on!  If I just put a few hundred bucks down to put it on layaway, then when I buy it a month or two later, it will be cheaper!  How did I not think of this before?

There is nothing wrong with ethanol when it is made from waste sugars like the brazilians do it.  They get an 8 energy produced to energy expended ratio. 

Maybe it is time for Big Corn to have a windfall profits tax on them!!!!

That won’t happen until the waitress that Barry is so concerned about can afford Corn Flakes anymore!!!!

There is nothing wrong with ethanol when it is made from waste sugars like the brazilians do it.

Brazilian ethanol is cheap because they are switching over to oil, which is many times more productive.  They are bringing in deepwater wells off their Atlantic coast.
Ethanol is a bad fuel, very inefficient at all levels.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

I do agree robert that ethanol is an outright boondogle of a fuel.  But if we are going to have to use then lets do it in a way that costs virtually nothing to make it, ie the waste sugar method that brazil uses. Not only does it give us more energy produced compared with energy expended to produce it, it puts all that corn back on the market.  Not to mention the fact that it makes the gubmint subsidies moot. 

I don’t think Brazil is switching to oil.  I think they are harvesting that oil to sell it on the world market.  It is way too expensive for them to make gasoline out of oil and most of the people in that country can’t afford it, that is why they switched to only ethanol a long time ago.  Besides they would have to spend HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars to build refineries for oil, since there is no workable infrastructure in brazil, or any other part of South America for that matter, for the type of refining capacity that would be needed to switch back from ethanol only fuel infrastructure.

I don’t think Brazil is switching to oil. I think they are harvesting that oil to sell it on the world market. It is way too expensive for them to make gasoline out of oil and most of the people in that country can’t afford it,
that is why they switched to only ethanol a long time ago. Besides they would have to spend HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars to build refineries for oil, since there is no workable infrastructure in brazil, or any other part
of South America for that matter, for the type of refining capacity that would be needed to switch back from ethanol only fuel infrastructure.

Brazil has developed ethanol for one reason: Until now, they had no domestic oil.  Before ethanol, they ran their cars on the gas emitted from heating peanut shells(you can look it up).
The sale of their oil will capitalize the infrastructure to switch over to petroleum as motor fuel; it will just take time.  If they weren’t socialistic, it wouldn’t take as long, but maybe oil will be an incentive for them to adopt a more efficient economic system.  Who knows?

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

It is clear that bio-fuels sourced from food crops are a very bad idea, because they inevitably drive up the price of food, which impacts worst on those who already struggle to get food on the table.

However, there are developing technologies that could be the panacea to this - cellulosic bio-ethanol (particularly from LIHD grasslands); bio-fuels from algae (GreenFuel amongst others); bio-ethanol from cassava.

Zah et al(2007) were clear. The only currently viable sources of biofuels are from waste and non-food sources.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Man: Cost of production is just one factor; ethanol is less energy dense than either gas or diesel, and so more is required to do the same amount of work.  Ethanol cannot be put through a pipeline, and so must be trucked and and mixed on site, which is more expensive.  The worst penalty for ethanol is that all money spent on it is diverted from more efficient sources of energy: coal, oil and natural gas.  It’s a loser right now, and into the forseeable future.  A superior product requires no mandates or subsidies.  That’s the bottom line.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

R108,

Please correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t all that Brazilian ethanol that those on the hypocritical AlGore Left speak of with such reverence, doesn’t it come from sugar cane now being grown on all that rain forest land that the Brazilians plowed, burned and cleared with such abandon?  Does this mean that its okay to destroy the natural environment if you are doing so to save it from the ravages of oil?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Maybe we should use Hydrogen.  Didn’t anyone see the Hindenberg burn in like two seconds?  Or maybe we can use puppy dog farts and kitten kisses.

Look we are going to be a carbon based society for years to come.  The issue should be on how to best harness the energy we are producing with oil and natural gas and maybe 50 years from now we become so effecient that we get more than 100 mpg that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg…

And all of the environmental wack-jobs do realize that Brazil is wiping out hundreds of acres of rain forest to plant the sugar cane, right?  And this is better for the environment how?

Does this mean that its okay to destroy the natural environment if you are doing so to save it from the ravages of oil?

Only if that position helps elect more Dems.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

BatOne… you beat me to it. 

I understand this, Robert, however this does not preclude the fact that gasoline is not going to be a viable fuel forever. 

Bio-diesel does not suffer from the same problems as bio- ethanol and could easily meet our energy needs. The link to GreenFuels above is for a product which could meet all our energy needs. Indeed, an area of desert 50 miles by 50 miles set aside to growing algae in brackish pools could supply the entirety of the US transport requirements. How do you like them apples?

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Only in America can we burn our food AND our liquor and call it good.

Lollipops,

Using logic and rational thought while talking to self-styled “progressives” is like speaking to them in Aramaic, Urdu, or Swahili.  The destruction of rain forest we have both described is analogous to the inevitable destruction of our economy from the tax and economic proposals put forth by the “progressive” left.

In the end, they are oblivious to the paradox and the hypocrisy of their stated positions.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

I understand this, Robert, however this does not preclude the fact that gasoline is not going to be a viable fuel forever.

You aren’t going to live forever, either, Man; does that mean you don’t attend to your needs today?  Do you live your life as if you were dead?
Neither you nor I have any idea how long our petroleum supplies will last, and so it is inappropriate to base our decision-making on the false premise that we do.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Robert, in fact I do have an idea of how long petroleum supplies will last, based on current worldwide usage, growth, and development the supplies are not likely to last beyond the end of the century and so we can assume that the peak will be reached long before that, if it hasn’t been reached already. Many experts in the field suggest that as soon as it becomes economically viable to source oil from shales/ sands/ horizontal drilling, then we are at or close to the peak - on one side or the other.

Ignorance of consumption does not make it go away.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Robert, in fact I do have an idea of how long petroleum supplies will last, based on current worldwide usage, growth, and development the supplies are not likely to last beyond the end of the century…

The identical claim was made in the Seventies, about the end of last century, and now we have more known reserves than we did then.  Your guesses about “peak oil” are just that: guesses.

Are you living your life on the basis that you will die some day?  You have yet to address that question.
Those “experts"(unnamed) you quote are wrong on the face of their claim.  The shale and sands deposits are evidence of increased reserves, but nice spin.
In fact, the deep sea reserves are just beginning to be discovered, due to better technology.  The “end” is nowhere near in sight.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

So I was listening to the radio and I have to share because I thought the segment was pretty cool.  (I believe it was Glenn Beck, but not 100% sure.) The subject was about the energy needs of the current population and how ludicrous we are to think about 1000 years into the future.  To put it into perspective, he referenced 1008 A.D.  How silly would it seem to go back to the time before indoor plumbing, lighting, etc and use the same logic?  Picture an old monk bending over a bible in a dark candlelit room… “well, we probably shouldn’t scribe our bibles in a candlelit room.  The smoke might deteriorate the atmosphere and hurt people in 2008.” And many years later along comes the lightbulb and the smoke from candles isn’t even a factor.  (Unless its at John McCain’s bday party… heh heh.  That’s a lot of candles.  )

But anyway, I thought the point was pretty good.  5, 10 maybe even 50 years in the future… ok.  But to look beyond that is just silly.  Technology will grow and provide us with solutions to adapt to the necessary situation.

The problem I have with this whole debate is that no one is taking the American spirit to heart and clammoring for technology that makes us energy independent in a reasonable amout of time.  I believe that as Americans we can be off oil as our main source of energy by the tri-centenial, not because it going to save the environment, or keep us safe, but because of the mere fact that America is a Kick Ass nation that can do anything it sets its mind to. 

We have been the world leaders in innovation since the dawn of this great nation, not because we cow towd to others, but because we said “Screw you we are going to do it, in spite of what you say!”

We just invented an invisibility cloak for god sakes, how do we not have cars that run on our thoughts?

The greenies have decieved the American public for a long time about GOre-bal wormin’, greenhouse gasses,fossil fuel consumption…
They’ll proclaim that tey know what’s best for the Nation/dlimate/world.
When they get to apply their hoodwinking ideas, it’s invariably a flop.
Ethanol & the use of our feed crops ranks right up there with their biggest blunders.
Back in the 70’s, there was a “researcher”, yea, Professor in Florida, that was thoroughly convinced that he knew better than anyone about oceanic problems.
His name was Ray McAllister.
He waved & stomped & plied to get to use his grand ideas.
He gathered 2 million tires to use as an artificial reef.
His project was deemed a gigantic success during the first 10 years or so.
Ray McAllister was deemed a hero.
Fast forward 30 years & Florida has a gigantic ecological disaster on their hands.
Turns out, even though McAllister thought sea life liked old tires, it doesn’t.
Now, the tires that broke loose are destroying the natural reefs.
Where is this guy now?
He’s still selling himself as an ocean expert despite the total failure of his projects.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Hey rebtex, maybe they just didn’t inflate those tires to the proper psi....  One good thing that did come from this, though, is that our navy divers are getting in some good training pulling up all these tires!

You also have to remember the Dem motto is “It is not the result that counts, it’s the process that matters.”

I can’t remember who said that once, but I seem to recall a prominent Dem was asked about the big tabacco law suits and how the money wasn’t really going to go to the tax payers, and that little gem leaked out of his mouth.

America is a Kick Ass nation that can do anything it sets its mind to.

Well said James. It took America three and a half years to totally mobilize, take out two of the greatest threats to the world and return to peacetime operation. This was following the attack on Pearl Harbour. If you guys can do that, then surely you can tackle something little like environmentally fuel production. Or maybe you are just over the hill? (I don’t think so)

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

If you guys can do that, then surely you can tackle something little like environmentally fuel production.

A false equivalence.  Despite the hoax hypothesis of “global warming”, there is no “Pearl Harbor” here; there is no enemy to be defeated, except the greens and socialists who want to destroy our economy for their Malthusian/Luddite fantasies.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

You also have to remember the Dem motto is “It is not the result that counts, it’s the process that matters.”

He wasn’t even telling the truth with that; it’s really “our good intentions are all that matter.”

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Good one, James!
I felt like it drew on the title of the thread. / or tread....
.
.
ManofFireandLight
One of many problems is greenies blocking progress....that & big business…
There are many independant machine shops that have their own R&D going on.
Even I have a hybrid of sorts.
But have you ever tried to get a personally-built vehicle insured, inspected, & licensed?
It’s an endless process.

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

Thanks for refreshing my mind robert.  I couldn’t quite remember the quote but it was something like “Our intentions were good, so the result is not important!”

I wish I could remember that quote…

Unfortunately this sums up the entire argument for not Drilling, not harvesting domestic shale oil, and not tapping all the natural gas we have.  Their argument is basically, “Our intention to save the environment is good, so you paying an inflated price for everything is not important.” Unless it is a waitress that Barry knows.

James: no problem; lefties aren’t grown up enough to do cost/benefit analysis.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Only in America can we burn our food AND our liquor and call it good.

Good point. We should be making vodka with that corn, trade it to the rusians for oil, barrel for barrel. Win win.

Make white lightnin’ with the corn.
Use potato’s for the vodka

Without an honest exchange of ideas, how can a mind grow?

lefties aren’t grown up enough to do cost/benefit analysis.

That’d be like an EROEI, right?

No, us non-righties just can’t cope with things like numbers and calculations and all that figuring out kinda stuff. It’s much easier to just pull data from the air and claim it as fact.

Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

Alcohol, from whatever source, is a piss poor fuel compared to gasoline/natural gas. Unless you process it to a high enough “proof” that it will burn efficiently.

Flamer, peak theory is cute. Not really holding up to advancing knowledge. But cute.  It is hypothesized, by quite an oil oriented crowd mind you, that planets produce hydrocarbon emulsions through several different and unrelated processes. “fossil fuel” is not a term that covers all of them. And saying that there is a small, finite amount of what we call petroleum is incredibly short sighted.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

No, us non-righties just can’t cope with things like numbers and calculations and all that figuring out kinda stuff. It’s much easier to just pull data from the air and claim it as fact.

Not at all; cost/benefit analysis involves thought(rather than feelings), making value judgements(anathema to you moral relativists) and taking responsibility for the consequences of your actions.  Lefties usually aren’t grown up enough to do any of that.  Since you are still clinging to your Marxist utopian fantasies of how the world “should” be.
Your “green” bullshit is a perfect example of your failure to make cost/benefit calculations.  You try to fit everyone into your little ideological box, and those who don’t fit or who choose not to fit are ultimately eliminated, in one way or the other.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Why should North Dakotans continue to subsidize ethanol when it has never once been competitive with gasoline in the energy markets.

Easy.  Independence from foreign oil.  I’d much rather invest my money in new technologies that could lead to our national energy independence than continue to pump billions into the pockets of some sheiks and princes on the other side of the globe.

Independence from foreign oil.

Ethanol will never give you that, Mortimer.  You are certainly welcome to invest your money in anything you wish, but keep your hand out of my pocket!

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

Well then, mort, you are 100% in support of drilling,pumping, and refining our OWN petroleum. Thanks for playing"How fucking Stupid Can Mortimer/Democrats Be?”.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Where are the savings?  For what it takes for the final product doesn’t add up in results.  I also bolgged on this topic with a twist.  They are not looking at the big picture.  I guess if is environmentally friendly, then all is good.  And, that is debatable. Thanks