Say Anything Blog

Awesome video.

Yes it is.

If you haven’t been following, Drew Carey has been doing a series of these for Reason Magazine.  They’ve all been good, but this is the best to date.

The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Much of the working class is struggling… but, they are not struggling to live a good life they are struggling to live beyond their means.
Excellent video!

Man, that’s as bad as questioning if global warming is really as bad as algore claims that it is.

As people in the “middle class” accumulate more capital(realestate,vehicles,savings) and higher wages they leave the “middleclass”. That simple.

Annabanna, you are correct!! Far too many people are struggling because they want to live the soapopera lifestyle. Look at the majority of people losing homes, they are the victims of piss poor decisions. Multiple refinance deals, ending in rapidly ballooning ARMs.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Walter E. Williams does an outstanding job of busting the declining middle class myth at Townhall.com.

What about claims of a disappearing middle class? Let’s do some detective work. Controlling for inflation, in 1967, 8 percent of households had an annual income of $75,000 and up; in 2003, more than 26 percent did. In 1967, 17 percent of households had a $50,000 to $75,000 income; in 2003, it was 18 percent. In 1967, 22 percent of households were in the $35,000 to $50,000 income group; by 2003, it had fallen to 15 percent. During the same period, the $15,000 to $35,000 category fell from 31 percent to 25 percent, and the under $15,000 category fell from 21 percent to 16 percent. The only reasonable conclusion from this evidence is that if the middle class is disappearing, it’s doing so by swelling the ranks of the upper classes.

Everything is great but, why would Bush want an economic stimulus package? Why would the Congress and Senate argue, not over whether or not there should be one, but, what it should be?

Should we believe Bush, Lou Dobbse, Bill O’Reilly, Ron Paul, McCain, Romney, Hillary Clinton, or Drew Carey?

EWS48, we’ve been in a slow down the last three months, and the package (poorly thought out as it is) is designed to stop a slide into a recession.  From listening to the pundits, you would have thought the recession was for the last 20 years.

What I like about the video is that somebody is taking the perspective of what’s going right for a change, instead of sour politics as usual.  LIberals always want to change the world, and the first step to that is to argue that there’s something wrong with the status quo, and when there is, something radical needs to be done, rather than to just educate people to live more within their means.

ews48,

Would you be good enough to post the citation or URL showing where Mr. Bush said “things are great”?

I didn’t think so.

There are really two separate questions here:  First, are we entering a recession and require an economic stimulus package at all, and Second, is this particular package what is needed?

The answers to both questions is ”NO”.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

The only “economic stimulus” we need is to reduce govt spending, with the resultant lowering of marginal tax rates.  Dialing back restrictive regulations would also be helpful.
That govt is best which governs least.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

why would Bush want an economic stimulus package? Why would the Congress and Senate argue, not over whether or not there should be one, but, what it should be?

You mean why would incumbents want to give every single american money in an election year?  That is the power of incumbency.

While there is little debate that the economy has slowed, the very definition of a recession is a decrease in GDP for consecutive quarters.  It has never been the case that we can expect a linear upward trend in GDP, home prices, the stock market…

The stimulus package is a horrible solution to a minor problem.  The better solution is to cut both interest rates and corporate and individual tax rates, thereby injecting capital into the market.  I am not even sure that these are necessary.  We have many competing economic theories on how to successfully “manage” an economy.  Ron Paul believes in the Adam Smith model.  Most other politicians are Keynesian and believe we need to “control” inflation, monetary supply, and so on.  Milton Friedman was an Adam Smith follower.

This was not unanimous.  Please read Congressman John Shaddegg from Arizona’s response (and Shaddegg almost single handedly led to the defeat of McCain Kennedy in the House):

On Tuesday, the U.S. House voted on H.R. 5140, the Economic Stimulus Bill.  As you may know, I was one of only 25 Republicans to vote against the bill.

Every American knows that the Federal government does not have the money to pay for these rebates.  We will have to borrow it.

It makes absolutely no sense to me to go give away money we don’t have.  These rebates will push us even further into debt to China and Saudi Arabia and impose the burden of this debt on our children and grandchildren. 

Temporary rebates will not stimulate economic growth.  The most they’ll do is make politicians feel good. 

We are, in fact, not all Keynesian’s now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, contrary to the claims being made by some, under the House stimulus bill, illegal aliens who filed tax returns last year will receive rebate checks. These checks will be in the amount of $600 per individual or $1200 per family plus $300 per child as provided in the law.  This will happen, even though a provision of the bill stipulates that rebate checks are not to be sent to ‘any nonresident alien individual.’

The reason that illegal aliens will nonetheless receive rebate checks is that under the terms of the bill, checks are to be automatically sent to all people who filed a tax return and earned the requisite $3000.  Because tax returns do not disclose a taxpayer’s legal status, rebate checks will automatically be sent to all illegal aliens who filed a tax return.

It’s a little like going out on Halloween and telling your babysitter that she should only give out candy to kids from your neighborhood .  But, she has no way of knowing which kids are from your neighborhood and which are from somewhere else, so she just gives it to all the kids who come to your house.

Simply put, the IRS has no way to know whether the individual who filed the tax return is an illegal alien or not.  As a result, it will issue checks to all illegal aliens who filed a return.

According to a New York Times story from last April, the number of illegal aliens who file tax returns has risen recently and has hit a record high.

This is what Conservatives do.  Again, this pandering further demonstrates the McCain trend of pandering adn ignoring Conservatives in order to get elected.  Conservative positions are mean and not nice and not pandering and require folks to work for that they get not receive handouts.

why would Bush want an economic stimulus package? Why would the Congress and Senate argue, not over whether or not there should be one, but, what it should be?

Politics!  It’s certainly not economics…

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Castaic lake is within half hour’s reach of approxomately 12,000,000 people. How come so very few middle class persons at the lake?
The larger question is where are the upper classes?

Justin would you care to tell us how many people per household worked in 1967 versus 2003?

"Castaic lake is within half hour’s reach of approxomately 12,000,000 people. How come so very few middle class persons at the lake?” This the one you mean? The one with the public access facilities and programs for disadvantaged kids? The one run by County of Los Angeles? With the program for disadvantaged kids? That the one you mean? Did I mention the program for disadvantaged kids?

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Cut the crap and let set a date for the fresh egg breakfast. I am tired of your procrastinating.

Is that the one? The State Park with the program for disadvantaged kids? All you have to do is read their webpage and figure it out.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Here pussy pussy pussy cat!!!!!!

Justin would you care to tell us how many people per household worked in 1967 versus 2003?

Would you care to tell me how many members the average household had in 1968?

The Average American Household at the median income household income level of approximately 50k per year has an average of 1.3 wage earners.  In households making above the 100k mark, the average is closer to 2.  In households making below 30k, the average is less than 1.

But the average US household size is 2.6 right now. 

What this says to me is that the nuclear family of husband and wife, both working are statistically more likely to make $100k or above than to make 50k or below.  Two income households are by and large in the top quintile of American households in terms of income.  Single mothers as well as younger Americans without families tend to earn less, but this is also a product of their age and education attainment.  The average wage for a college graduate is well over $50k per year per person, with Masters or Professional Degreed folks earning over $75k per year each.

Lots can be made of the opportunities in the country, but here are the facts:

If you do not have kids young or out of wedlock, if you complete your education, if you get married, you are almost guaranteed to have a family household income over $100k.  Simple math.  If you want to debate the relative role of women in the workforce or the number of hours that Americans work or whatever else you want to debate the only thing that I can say is that when the Democrats talk about raising taxes on the rich, they mean families in the top 10% of wage earners which currently is right around $120k.  They essentially want to tax people that have made good decisions.  Because statistically, if you make good decisions and have a two earner household of educated people, you are the rich.

BTW, how many college grad married couples do you know working three jobs that do not have degrees in sociology or psychology or women’s studies?  How many college grads do you know what are unemployed?

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t04.htm

The seasonally adjusted unemployment rate for college graduates (Bachelors Degree) was 2.1% in Jan 08.  For those with some college or an associate’s degree, that was 3.7% in Jan 08.

http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032007/hhinc/new05_000.htm

Another bit of info:

Of the top 20% of households in the US, roughly 20M households, the household income threshold to be in the top 20% is 100k +/-.  Of those 23M households, 18.5M are married couples and another 3M are single people with no kids.  5M of those households or roughly 1/4 of them have only one wage earner.  Of those in the top 5% of income earners, households making 170k or above, 85% of them or 4.8M out of 5.8M are maried couples and 600k of the remaining million are single people with no kids.  Of the 58M married couple households nationwide, 18.5M of them or almost 30% of them make $100k or more per year.  Another 25% of them make between 60-100k per year.

See, she has nothing. Needs a Midol and some estrogen replacement therapy.

Still crying class envy and jealousy, just like all welfare queens.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Not enough colleges for all americans to enroll and attend nor enough jobs to faclitate all the people with college degrees.
Plus being more realistic than you I’d venture and say that not everybody has the intelect required for college. We still need plumbers, electricians, sewage plant workers,janitors etc.
You also avoided the answer that back in 1967 one parent (usaaly the father) was the only breadwinner and the households of the day did pretty well.

We may as well discuss the differences then:

http://www.census.gov/statab/hist/HS-12.pdf

In 1967, the average household size was 3.26 as opposed to 2.58 in 2002.

In 1965, a full 72% of households were headed by a married couple with children, a number that by 2002 had dropped to 51%.  Today, 32% of households are single parent households versus 16% then.

The point is that in general, married couples are more likely to make $100k per year or more than make 50k a year or less.  It is true that in many of these cases the added income of the spouse helps, but also keep in mind that our society tends to have fewer children as evidenced by declining family size.  The married families that do not fare well are in many ways the same as single parent households--they have more kids than they can afford.  We have come to expect an American lifestyle of H2’s and cell phones and college educations and french lessons and cruises and air travel.  That lifestyle is incompatible with lots of kids.  Defining “middle class” as your average nuclear family of husband, wife, and two kids that lives in the suburbs, and the middle class is doing better than ever.  Single parent homes, families with more than three children, urban families, families whose parents lack any advanced education (even trade school), struggle.

Plus being more realistic than you I’d venture and say that not everybody has the intelect required for college. We still need plumbers, electricians, sewage plant workers,janitors etc.

And the Associate’s Degree category includes those folks that have trade degrees as they are increasingly being completed at VoTech schools run by state universities.

Let’s face it and look at the groups:

--illegals and uneducated Hispanics that work low wage jobs and do not speak English (approximately 12M illegals and another 20+M Spanish speakers that lack English proficiency)
--high school dropouts (15% of the population)
--single parent households (32% of all households)
--those addicted to drugs

These groups account for the folks that are “hurting” in this “bad economy”.  Approximately 30% of Americans have college degrees.  That 30% has an unemployment rate of 2% and makes on average $52k per year.  Those that do not have college degrees make on average $28k, but that is skewed by the people with vocational degrees and associates degrees that do far better.  Of those that have no marketable trade skills, whether they have a high school diploma or not, they make under $20k.

We have a poverty problem in this country because of lack of effort.  My college was free, paid for by the GI Bill, Pell Grants, and Student Loans.  They would have paid for me to become a plumber or an electrician at the Juco too.  And the left seeks to invent crisises that do not exist for educated and hard working folks by showing us examples of those that are struggling without putting in context the reasons why they are struggling.  You can make all the excuses for why so and so couldn’t go to college or whatever else, but with online courses, junior colleges, night courses, pell grants and loans, and the military, if you choose to be poor, uneducated, and stay that way, why should I have to worry about that?

My college was free, paid for by the GI Bill, Pell Grants, and Student Loans.

Thank the left.

Sad, most people won’t see this and the media will never report it. Even Fox

The argument that families 40+ years ago got by with just one parent working are pretty much invalid, considering the vast difference in lifestyle.  40 years ago, my mom was a teenager with 2 younger siblings, and my grandfather was the only bread winner, and didn’t have any education past high school, the thing so many people claim just isn’t possible anymore.

They lived in a 2 bedroom, single bath house with no air conditioning, had one car, no TV, ate at home most nights, and made a lot of their own clothing.

10 years ago, I lived in a double earner, college educated household with just myself and my sister, which, according to the argument, is what it takes to ‘get by.’ Our house was 4 times the size of my mom’s old house with 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, air conditioning, and a yard large enough for a large dog.  We also had 2 computers, 3 televisions with cable, unlimited internet access, a cellular phone.  We had 2 cars, one of which we bought new.  Our clothes were new and store bought.  We were able to eat out fairly often, take vacations, and afford my dad’s ridiculously awesome sound system.

Today, I’m finishing my higher education mostly on my own dime as opposed to my parents’.  My sister is in a private university and my parents are paying for it.  Yet, we can still afford one cell phone and one car per person, and plane tickets home every year for Thanksgiving and Christmas.  It’s not a rising cost of living.  It’s a rising standard of living.

Hear, hear! The rising standard of living is routinely vilified by people who are the beneficiaries thereof.

I live in rural Pennsylvania, and know quite a large number of people who are considered “poor”. Funny, many of them not only own their own homes, but good sized pieces of land, too. Multiple vehicles. TVs. Computers. Regularly travel out of state. Own livestock and equipment of substantial value. And yet, “journalists” and academics and politicians constantly tell us that these people are poor, uneducated, undernourished morons incapable of running their own lives.

Go figure!?!?!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Ok this is a bunch of shit.  Where do you know that the average person is making over $16 an hour.  I don’t know that many people making over $16 an hour.  The guy stated “this $50 cell phone would only cost you 3 hours labor to buy today.  The Dollar is going down.  The reason why he says things are cheaper is because of the Dollar only being worth about 4 cents today as compared to 1920.  If everything is cheaper why don’t they just put the real price of the item in accordance to the price of the dollar?  That would mean that you $50,000 boat would only really be $2000 in that line of thinking.

Wow, the width and breadth of economic ignorance is once again illustrated.

You don’t know anyone that makes $16 an hour? Get new friends, and an education, and a F-ing job that does not involve a drive-up window or deep fryer.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

$16/hour is only $33,280.00 per year and the average salary in the US is ~$40,000.00. So, on average, three hours of work nets about $50.00 after taxes.

The average person below the poverty line in the U.S. has a better standard of living than the average European, regardless of income.

I just got back from a deployment to Djibouti, Africa where the average person makes $4.00 per YEAR and literally lives under a pile of rocks. (in 130 degree F heat in the summer time).  using those standards, we have no poor in America.

Hell, bro, just go to Mexico and Central America and you will see that. People who have not spent time in countries outside of North America and Europe just do not grasp what poverty is.

And thank you for your service.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Wolfey, a falling dollar results in HIGHER prices, not lower. If you ever meet one of those upper crust making $16/hour ask them to explain it to you.

After finishing a master’s degree at a respected university, I immediately began teaching in a well-paid school district in Georgia.  My brother, a licensed plumber, and I had a discussion about salaries… I was surprised to learn he earned quite a bit more than me! 

Without completing his college education, he managed to purchase a nice home (after saving up for a large down payment), send his children to soccer/baseball/cheerleading/you-name-it camp, provide fun vacations/weekends away for his family, provide enough financial stability for his wife to be a stay-at-home-mom, and generally lead a fulfilling and fruitful life. 

My point?  Don’t stereotype tradespeople as some “icky” group.  From my experience (and I now work for a company that works directly with thousands of tradespeople) I have found tradespeople to be small business owners, taxpayers, and hardworking.

I really took offense at ellinas’ statement.... “Plus being more realistic than you I’d venture and say that not everybody has the intellect required for college. We still need plumbers, electricians, sewage plant workers, janitors etc.”

Ellinas, are you seriously suggesting that those who work in the trades have a lower intellect than those who do not?  Or was yours a back-handed comment aimed at a population of people who are unlikely reading this board? 

Sometimes people don’t realize (or don’t stop to think) that tradespeople provide us with health, safety, sanitation, and support all the modern conveniences of life.  In addition, approximately 1 of 5 licensed tradespeople that we encounter has assets worth more than a million dollars…. and the majority of licensed tradespeople are successful small-business owners.

Conservatives have to remember to value ALL who work hard for an honest, legal living.

Forgive me if I’ve gone off topic… I’ve never posted here (or anywhere really!).  I just could not let the negative comment slide by unaddressed.  And after reciting the above “Grant me the serenity” prayer/statement, I still felt compelled to post!

Kay, welcome in. And ellinas is no type of conservative, it has a low opinion of anyone not itself. Among the regulars here we pretty well cover the full spectrum of education and employment, and lack thereof.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

The reason the last generations did not have SUV’s and boats and 3 motorcycles is because some idiot banker wasn’t there to hook them up with an exotic mortgage that is about to unravel. 

Here is a time-relative equation that was not discussed in the video.  How many hours, weeks, or months of time did our grandparents have to work to pay off their amassed credit card debt versus the average person at that lake in the clip?

2Hotel9

Hope I get some of the money you worked for.  Fuck you and your arrogance.

Kay,

As a fellow Georgian let me offer a hearty “welcome” as well.  I think you’ll find that the conservatives here at Say Anything have a great deal of respect for small business people of all types.  Some of us are just that ourselves.

As you can see by “Nacho’s” crude stupidity, there are plenty of strays around who stop by just long enough to crap on someone else’s lawn, then wander off down the road.  But they are easily identified and ignored.

Again, welcome aboard.

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Nacho, 2hotel9 doesn’t work.  This is all he does.  Don’t wait up for any money.  He doesn’t have any.

And thank you for saying what I won’t.  He deserves every expletive, particularly the one you used that he shared so freely with me today You rehearsed it back to him so well.  Thank You.

He has turned crude and mean. I thought at one time he was a decent human being. Sorry to say, he has fallen off the wagon of humanity.  Try this, click on all his comments, drift thru them, and you will grasp what He is really like.  Sorry you had to waste good Electrons to even read his rubbish.

Kinda sad.  He was here before I came, and he will be here after I leave.  This is all he has.

He’s a pathetic loser.

the AVATAR
Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this could be their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

Gene,

Do you honestly feel any better for having posted all this?

Or have you only demeaned yourself in a fit of petty rage and frustration?

“Poverty of goods is easily cured; poverty of the mind is irreparable.”

Kay,

Well put.  I hope to read many more of your comments.

Kay, Sally here.

I also earned my masters degree, although there is some speculation as to whether or not it was a well respected university.

Now, as I scientist, I work with a wide range of individuals, many also in the trades.

As for me, it would be hard to Blog on this site if it were not for the editing of my overworked (and he says underpaid) husband. Lacking a degree, he has managed to put me through school and provide for our girls.

Please feel welcome at this site, at all times.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

He’s a pathetic loser.

When you have no facts, use personal attack.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Bat,

Do you honestly feel any better for having posted all this?

Or have you only demeaned yourself in a fit of petty rage and frustration?

This isn’t about me.  When I got this comment and have seen the depths to which 2H9 has fallen, I decided it was high time to call it as it is. 

No one has the right to decide he can be as abusive as he wants to be, and say whatever to whomever he wants and expect to stay spot clean: That includes 2h9.  I don’t suffer fools well and I won’t take direct abuse silently.  If someone hits me, expect to be hit back.  Hard.

I did. 

I have no regret except that the level of discourse has fallen because of his dragging it down.  You all knew it.  No one would say anything so I decided I would.  I try hard to be courteous and kind in comments.  But, poke me, expect to be poked back. 

No one has the right to talk to anyone like that, ever.  Not here, not anywhere.  No one can make anyone feel inferior without their permission.  And, not even a dog should be talked to like he does to people on this blog in his comments.  He’s out of line. 

All he has to do is behave himself and act like a man. 

I would accept an apology from him and bury the hatchet.  I’ll not wait up.

So to answer your question, No I don’t feel better, I wish I didn’t have to do this, No I feel no rage, just irritation. And I don’t believe I have demeaned myself or have been petty.  I have brought a man who needed bringing to account at least on my account.

I respect your opinions and normally will allow you quarter on them.  I’ll just never be talked to like that and allow it to go without retribution or correction. 

He’s a military man, he should have learned that.  Shoot and you’ll be shot at.  I know he’ll come all unglued and will amplify the situation.  I can take it.  Ask him about petty rage and demeaning will ya? 

I don’t like war, but I never back down from a fight.

the AVATAR
Old Tigers are more dangerous when they believe this could be their last hunt.

From , “The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen”
Old tigers, sensing the end,
they’re at their most fierce. 
And they go down fighting.

I would have liked to have seen how the hours worked to pay for government services had trended over the same period.  Now there is a source of a squeeze.

gene, you are an anti-American, socialist scumbag, by your own proud admission. And the harder you try to silence real Americans the louder we are going to get. We will not bow down to your anti-human, anti-American socialist cancer. You were so happy in Socialist Germany? Tote your ass back there.

Your continued attempts to blame American citizens because they refuse to surrender to your shit show clearly what and who you are.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Its gonna get real bad, obviously not for the Saudis or the Bush Family et al. But your average Joe is gonna feel the pain.

Someone has to pay for the Billionairs

Someone has to pay for the Billionairs

The typical Marxist lie; in reality, the billionaires pay for almost everything in this system, including taxes and job creation through investment.  Without them, there would be very few jobs, other than subsistence jobs.

"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

Where do you know that the average person is making over $16 an hour.  I don’t know that many people making over $16 an hour.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Average hourly earnings of production and nonsupervisory workers on private nonfarm payrolls rose by 4 cents, or 0.2 percent, in January to $17.75, seasonally adjusted.  This followed a gain of 7 cents in December.  Average weekly earnings fell by 0.1 percent in January to $598.18.  Over the year, average hourly earnings rose by 3.7 percent, and weekly earnings rose by 3.4 percent.

It is actually $17.75.  I don’t expect lefties to know how well the average person in this country is doing.  And I am sorry that you hang around with folks making below average earnings.  Try going to college and hanging out with other educated college grads that are experiencing 2% unemployment and make an average of over $50k per year.

But don’t let facts, figures, and statistics get in the way of your perception of how bad things are.

My college was free, paid for by the GI Bill, Pell Grants, and Student Loans. They would have paid for me to become a plumber or an electrician at the Juco too. 
Justin B. on February 8, 2008 at 11:22 am

Another lie from Justin. Your education was not free.
A loan is not free money. It has to be repaid. Who repaid your student loans?

Gene,

Do you honestly feel any better for having posted all this?
Or have you only demeaned yourself in a fit of petty rage and frustration?
Bat One on February 12, 2008 at 11:06 pm

Bat One. Gene is correct in describing 2h9. Look it up for yourself. He has threatened to shoot/kill people from time to time. Nothing nice about the man.

They were fully sunbsidized loans making them interest free, but I only took out loans for cost of living items like laptops and car payments becuase I had a full tuition scholarship for being a Summa Cum Laude student.  My books and fees were covered by the GI Bill.  I received Pell Grant money for living and I took out student loans so that we could buy our first home while I was in college since the interest rate of ZERO PERCENT was a pretty good deal.

So let me put it to you another way:

I served my country with Honor as a Navy Hospital Corpsman.  I earned a 4.0 GPA.  And in return for my outstanding academic and service achievements, I received grants, loans, GI Bill and scholarships that allowed me to attend Arizona State for free.

Of all of that, the only real “free money” that I didn’t earn or have to pay back was the Pell Grants of about $4000 per year and the interest on the student loans that I would have had to repay.

Oh, and let me add that the pell grants were an investment that I am repaying in kind with the increased income taxes that I will pay over my lifetime.  I guess that wasn’t really free either.

I received Pell Grant money for living and I took out student loans so that we could buy our first home while I was in college since the interest rate of ZERO PERCENT was a pretty good deal.
Justin B. on February 14, 2008 at 10:26 am

Student loans to buy a house? Wow that is a novel way to buy a house. So more than likely you lied on your applications as to the purpose of the loans.
You are beneath contempt.

Ellinas:

So more than likely you lied on your applications as to the purpose of the loans

Buying a house is a form of paying for living expenses. If it is cheaper than an apartment, more power to Justin.

.  You are beneath contempt.

No, you’re just an imbecile.

Carrick, government guaranteed student loans to purchase a house?
I have A child attending university. I will ask him to put on his application for a student loan that the purpose of the loan is to buy a house to live while in college.

No, you’re just an imbecile.
Carrick on February 14, 2008 at 10:55 am

Ok you idiot. I went and talked to three banks concerning student loans: Bank of America, Bank of the West, and Washington Mutual.They all said it would be a violation of the loan terms to use the money to buy a house. They also said they would outright regect such a loan.
I also discussed the issue with the financial aid offficer of the University of the Pacific a private university here in Stockton, the financial aid officer of CSU Stanislaus Stockton extension, and called Harvard University’s financial aid office. While they all agreed that is a novel idea for the use of a student loan one of them sarcastically wished me good luck in securing such a loan, the third said I was out of my mind.

I received Pell Grant money for living and I took out student loans so that we could buy our first home while I was in college since the interest rate of ZERO PERCENT was a pretty good deal.
Justin B. on February 14, 2008 at 10:26 am

Name the place that gave you such a loan.
I am very much interested for I have a son in college and it is costing me $33,000 per year not including the $15,000 scholarship he got.

She thinks it is ascam and wants to get in “on it”. Typical anti-American socialist fuck.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Oh, and spare us your self righteous indignation. take out the fucking student loan, then use the money from the job to finance the house, you stupid slut.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Not coming down to you level. Got that 2H9?

Ah, its little feelings are hurt, boohoo. She can’t work another welfare scam and she gonna cry. Wawawawawawawa!

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

No feelings hurt 2H9. But since you insist, I will tell you what I did not say earlier: A slut is the mother that gave bith to a bastard like you.

Ah! Boohoo. She gonna squeeze some tears out for us now? Poor little welfare queen! People being meant to it. Wawawawawawawa.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Here pussy pussy pussy cat!!!

I used the proceeds from a student loan as the down payment on my home.  I have no obligation to use the student loan proceeds for anything other than for living expenses, and it was fully my intention to invest my living expenses into owning a starter home as opposed to paying rent at a shitty apartment in town.  I worked two jobs at the time.  One day job at a hospital and the other on nights when I did not have school delivering pizzas.  I needed to come up with an additional 5% of the purchase price of my home (or approximately $5000) to qualify for a VA Guaranteed home loan and used proceeds from both my pell grant, GI Bill, and student loans to pay that.

In actuality, it does not make sense to functionally say that I used this money from this source to pay for this expense.  Rather, it makes more sense to say that during time X, I had the following sources of income:  Pell Grants, Scholarships, Student Loans, GI Bill, Thunderbird Hospital, Dominos Pizza, and my wife’s income.  During that time, we allocated $5000 of our savings, which in all probability included funds that were borrowed at 0% interest for the express purpose of living expenses, to pay a down payment.  What you must ask yourself at any time when you borrow money and/or pay off credit card or loan debt is what makes the most financial sense.  At the time, I did not “need” zero interest student loans as we were able to pay our bills just fine.  However, I could use loan proceeds that were paid to me to pay off other financial obligations that were at a substantially higher interest rate--i.e. car loans, computer loans, credit cards, and so on.  A lesson that I learned is that when evaluating which debts to pay first, look at those with the highest interest rates. 

It is the very fact that I have to repay the obligation and did not materially misrepresent how or what I would use the money for that makes the contract binding and ethical on both sides.  the government has little interest in micromanaging how I spend my loan, so long as it is towards expenses reasonably association with my education, and housing happens to be a significant component of that.

I spent four years studying business and finance.  I graduated top of my class.  I am sure that my academic, financial, and professional success makes me beneath your contempt, but the rules are relatively simple--I can receive a combination of grants, scholarships, and subsidized loans up to the computed cost of attendance which in the case of ASU was approximately $22000 per year for a student living off campus.  That includes the cost of housing, food, and other expenses.  I am allowed to allocate that money as I see fit towards my education:

http://studentaid.ed.gov/students/publications/student_guide/2007-2008/english/importantterms.htm

The total amount it will cost you to go to school—usually expressed as a yearly figure. It’s determined using rules established by law. The COA includes tuition and fees; on-campus room and board (or a housing and food allowance for off-campus students); and allowances for books, supplies, transportation, loan fees, and, if applicable, dependent care. It also includes miscellaneous and personal expenses, including an allowance for the rental or purchase of a personal computer. Costs related to a disability are also covered.

Feel free to appologize for your demeaning words.  I am all ears.  I can use the money to pay for daycare or a computer or a new car or for housing or food.  Lots of latitude on how I can use the money.

Still waiting on the source of the 0% loan.
Also explain what you mean by: “I used the proceeds from a student loan as the down payment on my home”. Do you mean the student loan itself?

Acutally, I think it is pretty fucking crafty of me to figure out how to buy a home, attend college, raise a child, and save for retirement all at the same time.  Especially when you consider that because of my lofty goals, I worked 60 hours per week, plus attended college full time.  I take a great deal of pride in my work ethic and ability to find LEGAL and creative ways to finance my ambitions.  Ways to excel at all that I do including earning a 4.0 GPA.  I also have 9 patents pending and one that just issued.  It is called thinking outside of the box.  It is what separates the sheep from the shepherds.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1678915.html
http://www.patentdebate.com/PATAPP/20070214388

I understand that most folks look at the achievements of the extraordinary with contempt simply because they were not smart enough or good enough to achieve these results themselves.  they therefore look to find flaws and failings in the success of others.  My financial success and academic success you attribute to cheating or unethical activities.  Others attribute the awarding of a patent of “well someone else had that same idea, but you just decided to try to patent it, but the idea is so obvious”.  Heard it all before.  And normally, I am not in the business of stroking my own ego by talking about how great I am.  I really don’t consider any of my accomplishments as altogehter difficult, simply that they required dedication and hard work.  And I generally receive the rewards of my hard work.  that is how the system is supposed to work.  Instead, you seek to attack me for my relative creativity in using my student loans for something other than bongs and dime bags or funions while living in some crashpad dorm and pounding doublefisted from the red cup and the keg.

What you want is an equality of results.  that I end up in the same place as the other shitbags that I went to school with that wasted their time in school and wasted their loan money and grant money, some of whom didn;t graduate.  You want a system that prevents folks like me from doing somehting different or creative and banishes me to an average existence that you also claim is going away.

Federal Stafford Subsidized loan.  Actually, I took our one per semester at the max amount and used the money for living expenses.  I ended up with $24,000 in Student Loan debt.

During the time of my education, I started two businesses, bought several vehicles, and purchased my home.

It becomes difficult to separate the sources of my finances because I worked two jobs plus had other income sources.  So like I said, when the time came to buy my home and pay the down payment, I had $5000 laying around in savings.

This is something worth noting--Let’s presuppose that you have the opportunity to get a loan at zero percent interest.  In the case of an automobile, the interest rate is an enticement to buy a new vehicle, so it is not truly a “zero interest” or zero cost loan since you will experience depreciation on the vehicle.  But in the case of Student Loans, the money truly is interest free.  Assuming that you can already meet the cost of tuition, you have the choice:

Take out a student loan at zero percent interest
--or--
Don’t

I make the case that at any time someone offers you a zero percent interest loan, so long as you can earn a marginal return rate greater than zero percent, take out the loan and put the money to work for you in an investment vehicle.  Assume that I have no need for the money, but if I borrow it, I can invest $5000 into a CD at a rate of 4% for the next five years until the loan comes due at the end of my schooling.  In that time, the loan will actually make me close to $1100 more than what is due back.  And that is calculated at 4%.  Now, let’s assume that you have a credit card with a $5000 balance that is at 18% interest.  If you borrow the $5000 and pay off the credit card, you save almost $1000 in interest charges that year alone.  Project that onto vehicles or homes… I maxed out my student loans every semester and used the funds to pay other debts.  Or perhaps, I used them to pay for my food and used the money that I would normally spend on food to pay my debts.  I don’t think that really matters because the process looks like this:

Deposit Student Loan into Checking Account.  Deposit Paycheck into account.  Deposit GI Bill into account.  Pay Bills.  Rinse.  Repeat.

That is different in context from taking a cashiers check from ASU from my student loan directly to the Title Company to pay towards my home purchase.  But it is truly not that different in net result.

While I applaud your creativity and hard work, I have to say each persons circumstances are different. The loans you are talking about, my son does not qualify. Therefore other than a $15000 scholaship from his school I have to pay an additional $30,000 to $35,000 per year.
Student loan to buy a house? You caught me by surprise there. Zero interest loan? Cannot find one. Federal Stafford Subsidized loan we do not qualify. Unsubsidizized Stafford loans? Lenders want to write the check to the school.

And that is in large part a benefit of joining the Navy and/or getting married.  As soon as I got married or was a Veteran, my parents’ incomes no longer were factored into the funding equation, making me eligible for damned near 100% of the possible aid.  My full intention in joining the Navy was to get an ROTC scholarship and have the government send me to school on that.  Unfortunately, I am color blind which disqualified me from most of the training and from all line officer positions as well as the Navy Nuclear program.  I instead was nominated for a Nurse ROTC scholarship and was set to leave active duty after two years and go to school for the next four before I began having medical problems.

When we talk about America being the land of opportunity, I take great issue with the situation for upper middle class folks.  As I posted before, a married couple is statistically more likely to have a household income of more than $100k than of less than $50k.  Basically, if your parents are married and make average salaries, they pay the bulk of America’s taxes and further, they receive very few benefits such as free health insurance (medicaid), free tuition, grants and subsidized student loans, and so on.  College tuition rates continue to rise BECAUSE OF GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES, not in spite of them.  We have created a two tier system where the poor receive their education for free at public universities, the rich attend exclusive private schools, and the middle class have to pay their own way and experience rising tuition costs.  Every time a college raises tuition, the feds raise student aid so the poor don’t even notice. 

But you don’t notice it in my suburbs.  People still have quads and boats and H2s and Excalades.  We still have cable and cell phones and Flat Screens and DSL.  We still take cruises and travel overseas and so on.  And we make major sacrifices if we want to send our kids to college.  I am encouraging my kids to get into Air Force or Navy or West Point or to get an ROTC or academic or athletic scholarship, otherwise it is Junior College and living at home.  Point is that we are still a land of opportunity.  College was never intended to be a “right”.  It is something that most of the middle class have to work their asses off to put their kids through.  I would rather see tuition low for everyone than see folks like me (when I was a student) get a free ride (which I did, but all of that was due to my military service). 

My suggestion--have your kid join the Air Force Reserve.  Get into ROTC or even do a short enlistment.  Reservists in the Air Force rarely deploy and if they do, it is to backfill at domestic bases.  Plus they will defer activation while he is in school.  Plus they pay for tuition, plus they give the GI Bill.  But of course, it is not my place to offer career advice or school advice… this is just my line of thinking for my kids.  I told my oldest that we would buy him a brand new car if he gets into Annapolis, The Springs, ROTC, or gets a ride for sports or academics.  If he joins the military and they pay for college, just don’t join the Army or Marines because people shoot at them.