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Monday, April 24, 2006

Against Publicly Funded Animal Experimentation

Our tax dollars are used to support animal testing.

I realize that to most this is not surprising. But the numbers should be: Our government spends over $5 billion a year of our money conducting experiments on animals. 5 billion dollars!!!

Estimates of how many animals are killed through animal testing vary considerably. An anti-vivisection site places the number between 17 and 70 million a year. The Animal Welfare Act, passed in 1966, requires labs to make publicly available the number of animals it “uses,” but the law does not apply to birds, rats and mice—the three animals which alone make up over 85% of the total number of animals killed.

There are several reasons why we should oppose this type of research. First, on general libertarian grounds we should oppose any type of governmental spending that is not vitally necessary for the security of its citizens. For example, the Department of Transportation recently conducted a test that consisted of repeatedly pouring a corrosive chemical on the backs of rabbits (their fur was shaved), to test the acidity of that product. What product were they testing? “Goodbye Graffiti.” This is not an essential function of government—our tax dollars shouldn’t support such worthless tests as that. A “limited government” shouldn’t spend $5 billion a year on vivisection.

Second, conservatives should reject it for foreign policy reasons. The Department of Defense spent over $200,000,000 last year on animal testing. That is a lot of money, and I don’t think you will find a single soldier who would want it spent teaching monkeys how to fly airplanes or seeing how much it hurts dogs when they’re injected with poisonous gas (a lot, I'm guessing).

Third, and most importantly, experiments on animals have been notoriously inaccurate throughout history. Thalidomide, a drug used to treat morning sickness in the ‘50s and ‘60s before it became known that it created severe birth defects and over 10,000 deaths in babies, was tested on animals by the NIH and given a clean bill of health. One study showed that over one-third of the drugs successfully tested on animals were eventually found unsafe for humans by the FDA. The reasons are simple enough: There are vast physiological differences between animals, and it’s unsafe to say that just since a product doesn’t harm mice it’ll be safe to provide to humans.

I’ve limited my focus to the vivisection done with our tax dollars, because I feel that is the strongest argument. If Cover Girl wants to keep testing its make-up on animals, that’s their right as a business—if you object to animal testing on utilitarian grounds, you can simply stop using those business’s products. (PETA has a list of the companies that test on animals.) But I would hope we could all agree that the U.S. Government should, at the very least, limit its animal testing to only those situations that are vitally necessary for our safety.

Comments

Excellent entry Dave. I made a few minor edits that mostly dealt with the placement of your outbound links. For some reason I get a small kick when editing a future English teacher’s entry. smile

Now a personal question: are you concerned as much about the well-being of mice and birds as you are about dogs and primates? For some reason I care a bit less about animals such as mice and birds. Seeing a primate or dog in pain gets my empathy flaring though. I know it’s not exactly logical, but I relate a bit more to a primate or even a dog.

Personal order of empathy in regards to research:

intelligent/higher mental order mammals > big mammals > small mammals > unintelligent/lower mental order mammals > intelligent/higher mental order aquatic animals (i.e.: octopi and squid) > birds > fish > insects > bacterium/virii > plants

likwidshoe on April 24, 2006 at 05:22 pm
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I’m with ya.  There is a lot of stuff done to animals that has no possible benefit and is cruel and inhumane.  One doesn’t have to be a PETA wacko to realize that. 

Clint on April 24, 2006 at 05:29 pm
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I don’t know enough about the subject to say for sure that there are things being done to animals that aren’t needed, but I can sum my position on this issue up thusly:

They’re just dumb animals.  We shoud avoid being needlessly cruel where possible, but if we can save some human lives at the expense of some animals, I have no problem with it. 


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Rob on April 24, 2006 at 06:11 pm
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Having considered this a little further, the only place where Davey boy and I may agree is when it is appropriate for tax dollars to be used on animal testing.  That is something I’d have to take on a case-by-case basis.

Obviously, we all want to feel sorry for poor little bunnies.  But if pouring some acid on a bunny can keep a soldier safe, so be it.  I’ve got no problem with it. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on April 24, 2006 at 06:18 pm

likwid asks:

Now a personal question: are you concerned as much about the well-being of mice and birds as you are about dogs and primates?

Yes. I provide equal consideration for the interests of all beings capable of enjoying pain. Some studies have shown that oysters are incapable of feeling pain--if this is true, I’d have no problem testing them (so long as my tax dollars weren’t used for it).

Rob writes:

They’re just dumb animals.  We shoud avoid being needlessly cruel where possible

Why? You obviously don’t care about the interests of animals--what problems do you have with needless, purposeless cruelty? I don’t care about the interests of my pillow (it’s made without feathers); therefore, I have no problem with someone needlessly punching it over and over again. Perhaps, somewhere in your being, there exists some small concern for animals?

Dave on April 24, 2006 at 06:36 pm
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It’s very obvious to anyone reading the post, Dave, that your aim is to stop this type of treatment of animals and are simply using "limited government" shpeal to make the case.  And the fiscal reasons you give are really rather weak.

If we start demading any sort of limited government anytime soon, it’s not going to start with animal testing… there are many other areas of much, much, much greater waste.

You want to abolish animal testing? Fine.  You’re crazy but you’re free to make the case.  It just comes across as almost insulting to use this line of arguement because you think it will appeal to a certain target audience.  Your examples are very weak.  Argue the "no animial testing" case on it’s own merits.
 

Sphagnum on April 24, 2006 at 06:41 pm
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Dave: "Yes. I provide equal consideration for the interests of all beings capable of enjoying pain."

Please define pain.  The firing of C-fibers, or something more abstract?

Also, what is it to enjoy pain?  Is it to have a nervous system set up to respond negatively to the firing of C-fibers (or whatever pain is), or is it recognized when one is seen to be affected negatively by past instances of pain, when one consciously avoids future pain, or when one simply makes an attempt to let you know that they don’t like pain.  Something else?

Next, when considering hive animals, do you provide equal considerations for, say a termite (assuming a termite can enjoy pain) and a highly complex mammal, or the hive and the same mammal.

Finally, would it be acceptable to proactively make an attempt to reduce pain in the universe. (i.e. kill a deer in the case where that keeps two termites from feeling pain. 

Oh, and what of beings with an engineered disconnect between the pain stimulus and the C-fibers firing.  Free game?

John on April 24, 2006 at 06:56 pm
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Why? You obviously don’t care about the interests of animals--what problems do you have with needless, purposeless cruelty?

Because I only deem the hurting animals to be "cruel" when it is "needless."  If hurting an animal serves a purpose, I don’t have much of a problem with it.  If we’re talking about lighting puppies on fire just to watch them burn, I do have a problem with that.

Got it?  Probably not.  But, at least I tried. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 24, 2006 at 07:09 pm
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The only point I might agree upon with Dave here is the use of govt money for non-defense purposes.  I would much rather military hardware be tested on animals than humans.  Other than that, I don’t want to pay taxes when private business should be doing it at their expense.  In that case, I get to choose(by buying or not buying their product).

robert108 on April 24, 2006 at 07:13 pm

robert108 writes 

Other than that, I don’t want to pay taxes when private business should be doing it at their expense.  In that case, I get to choose(by buying or not buying their product).

I know what you mean. It’s especially aggravating for me: I refuse to support any business that uses animals, going very far out of my way to do so. However, there is absolutely nothing I can do to stop paying the Department of Defense my hard-earned money to poison dogs.

Rob writes:

Because I only deem the hurting animals to be "cruel" when it is "needless."  If hurting an animal serves a purpose, I don’t have much of a problem with it.  If we’re talking about lighting puppies on fire just to watch them burn, I do have a problem with that.

Got it?  Probably not.  But, at least I tried. 

No, I get it. I just don’t understand how your mind works. I just wish you would understand that wearing leather or eating veal is just as "needless" as kicking a stray dog.

Dave on April 24, 2006 at 07:29 pm

You want to abolish animal testing? Fine.  You’re crazy but you’re free to make the case.  It just comes across as almost insulting to use this line of arguement because you think it will appeal to a certain target audience. 

There are dozens of reasons to oppose animal testing. I just listed the three I thought would be most influential among the people at this site. I don’t see how that’s insulting--the suffering of animals really bothers me, and I would like it to stop. I hope to persuade people to see it my way. And it’s not like I’m being sly about it; I state directly "I’ve limited my focus to the vivisection done with our tax dollars, because I feel that is the strongest argument."

It’s similar to appealing to liberal sensibilities on the abortion issue by claiming it’s racist. Unless I’ve said something untrue, I don’t see any problem.

If we start demading any sort of limited government anytime soon, it’s not going to start with animal testing… there are many other areas of much, much, much greater waste.

You remind me of Diane, who argued against the invasion of Iraq since there’s no way we could free all people living under violent dictatorships.

Dave on April 24, 2006 at 07:39 pm
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No, I get it. I just don’t understand how your mind works. I just wish you would understand that wearing leather or eating veal is just as "needless" as kicking a stray dog.

Not needless at all!  I look damn good in leather, and while I’m not much of a fan of veal I’m more than willing to sacrifice any number of cows for my dining pleasure. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on April 24, 2006 at 07:41 pm

Not needless at all!  I look damn good in leather

And let’s assume John Doe feels damn good while torturing a puppy dog. Do his actions still bother you? Is it still cruel?

Dave on April 24, 2006 at 07:43 pm
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Hurting or killing just for the sake of hurting or killing is always cruel.  Killing so that I can have a nice steak supper, however, is another matter entirely.

Does it bother me of Mr. Doe sets puppies on fire for fun?  Yeah.  I think that’s pretty sick.  Do I think he should go to jail because of it?  Frankly, I think our cops have better things to do with their time.

A lot of people are hypocrites on this issue.  They have no problem with going on hunting trips and shooting the hell out of birds, but they don’t like to see someone kick a dog.  I don’t operate like that.  Do I like seeing animals hurt just for the sake of hurting them?  No, but only because I think it says a lot about the person’s character more than anything else not because I’m all that worried about the animal itself. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on April 24, 2006 at 08:02 pm
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Dave:  You wrote:  "You remind me of Diane, who argued against the invasion of Iraq since there’s no way we could free all people living under violent dictatorships."  and "And let’s assume John Doe feels damn good while torturing a puppy dog. Do his actions still bother you? Is it still cruel?"  You just don’t do well with analogies and equivalences.  Neither one of those statements relates in any way to the subject matter.

I draw the line at national defense.  Obviously, you don’t. 

robert108 on April 24, 2006 at 09:07 pm
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 But if pouring some acid on a bunny can keep a soldier safe, so be it.  I’ve got no problem with it. 

Funny...the bunny never raped or tormented a human being like some of our soldiers have.  Perhaps those who do such things would make better lab animals than lab animals?  They certainly seem less ‘human’.

Dave:  You wrote:  "You remind me of Diane, who argued against the invasion of Iraq since there’s no way we could free all people living under violent dictatorships." 

Boy, you sure didn’t get it.  I never argued against the invasion of Iraq for that reason at all.  I argued against the invasion of Iraq for a number of reasons, not including your specious interpretation of what I said.

I argued against it as being immoral, unnecessary and not freeing the people of Iraq to a better life at all.  Not to mention being done under false pretenses and, in the opinion of experts, illegal by international law standards.

diane on April 24, 2006 at 11:05 pm
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There are dozens of reasons to oppose animal testing. I just listed the three I thought would be most influential among the people at this site. I don’t see how that’s insulting--the suffering of animals really bothers me, and I would like it to stop. I hope to persuade people to see it my way. And it’s not like I’m being sly about it; I state directly "I’ve limited my focus to the vivisection done with our tax dollars, because I feel that is the strongest argument."

But it’s really the weakest argument.  You stupidly state: 

Conservatives should reject it for foreign policy reasons. The Department of Defense spent over $200,000,000 last year on animal testing. That is a lot of money, and I don’t think you will find a single soldier who would want it spent teaching monkeys how to fly airplanes or seeing how much it hurts dogs when they’re injected with poisonous gas (a lot, I’m guessing).

You didn’t even attempt to portray what they are really doing with that money.  You paint a picture so ridiculous that no one is going to believe it.  Why not tell us what they are really doing with the money?  If the DoD is spending 200 million teaching monkeys to fly and randomly poisoning dogs, then you’d have a good arguement.  But you don’t even try to be fair about it and it ruins what was a silly arguement to begin with. 

Sphagnum on April 25, 2006 at 03:59 am
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The Bible says we’re supposed to be good stewards of what we’re given, such as the world and the animals in it.  Yes, we were given the animals and told they could be used for food.  So, while we’re supposed to be good stewards, we’re not supposed to be vegans either. 

Clint on April 25, 2006 at 05:53 am

Sphagnum ejaculates: 

You didn’t even attempt to portray what they are really doing with that money.  You paint a picture so ridiculous that no one is going to believe it.  Why not tell us what they are really doing with the money?

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c103:H.R.4971.IH

"The Department of Defense conducts almost $200,000,000 worth of animal testing every year and has not provided detailed information on its experimentation programs."

If you have some information about their tests, I’d love to hear it.

Dave on April 25, 2006 at 07:17 am
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Ejaculates?  Wtf?

 

I never said I DID have information about what the DoD does with this money.  That’s the point.  You claim it is spent on teaching monkeys to fly and injecting dogs with poison. That’s ridiculous and you know it.  You’re making it up and portraying it as truth!  Why not just say they spend this money and you don’t know what it is spent on?  Why try to deceive? 

Sphagnum on April 25, 2006 at 04:31 pm
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Dave: The burden of proof is on the accuser.  That would be you.

robert108 on April 25, 2006 at 09:27 pm

Why not just say they spend this money and you don’t know what it is spent on? 

Because we know that they’ve spent it poisoning dogs--attempting to see what level of chemical weapons was strong enough to kill half the test subjects. The DOD tests of shocking monkeys while simulating equilibrium problems flying an airplane are also well known. The fact that the two most well-known DOD animal tests are so extremely ethically troublesome tells me that the ones we haven’t heard about must be even worse....or why wouldn’t the DOD combat the negative coverage with positive examples of animal testing?

Dave on April 25, 2006 at 10:46 pm
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Simple explanation, Dave.  Because they are the DoD and MAYBE they don’t want America’s enimies to know our capabilities.  MAYBE they didn’t want Sadaam to know we had antidotes to most of his chemical weapons.  MAYBE they don’t  those who wish to do us harm to know just what kind of capabilities we have...  and by keeping this type of testing secret, like everything else in the DoD, they don’t give our enemies the knowledge they desire.

You still inaccurately stated that the Pentagon spends 200 million on flying monkeys and poisoning dogs.  This is flat false and you know it.  Just becuase you don’t know what really happens does not give you licesnce to make it up. 

Sphagnum on April 26, 2006 at 02:10 pm

You still inaccurately stated that the Pentagon spends 200 million on flying monkeys and poisoning dogs.

What I wrote was:

The Department of Defense spent over $200,000,000 last year on animal testing. That is a lot of money, and I don’t think you will find a single soldier who would want it spent teaching monkeys how to fly airplanes or seeing how much it hurts dogs when they’re injected with poisonous gas (a lot, I’m guessing).

If someone read that and thought I actually believed the U.S. Government spent 200,000,000 dollars last year conducting exactly two tests, I sincerely apologize. I shall henceforth lower my expectations of your intelligence even further for any future posts.

Dave on April 26, 2006 at 08:04 pm
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Words have meaning, Dave.  What you wrote was crystal clear.  No one can read you mind to see what you mean.  You intentionally misled.  That was my point.

Sphagnum on April 26, 2006 at 09:00 pm
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