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Saturday, June 30, 2007

Adolescent Lesbianism And Big Brother

An interesting case for discussion:

A security camera captured two girls kissing, but it’s what happened next that sparked a surveillance debate. With Warren County schools having surveillance cameras not only in the high schools but in the middle school and elementary schools as well, you’ll want to read on because reporter Keith Eldridge’s brings you the story that asks the question: When does Big Brother surveillance cross the line?

The dean of students said he saw two girls kissing. He checked the surveillance tape then shared what he saw with the parents of one of the girls. They then pulled her out of school, which then pulled the peninsula school district into a big controversy.

“They weren’t harming other students, so I don’t think the administrators had a right to show it to her parents or anybody else,” student, Laura Varadi said.

“I think that they didn’t use the cameras like how they should. They should only be used for safety I think,” student, Jade Egelhoff said.

“We obviously made a mistake,” Superintendent Terry Bouck said. “We’re here to make sure our kids, our staff and parents are safe, but we’re not going to be monitoring public displays of affection, etc.”

But some parents ask “Why not?”

Why not indeed.

Many, including those excitable privacy absolutists, are quick to cry “invasion of privacy!” and “Big Brother!” when confronted with something like this, but is it really an invasion of privacy?  These girls were kissing in public, and a camera monitoring a public area just happened to catch them.

Would there have been a controversy had the principal noticed them kissing as he walked through the area instead of noticing them on the surveillance camera?  I don’t think we would.  These girls, by being in an open public area, had no expectation of privacy.  And there has never been a time in America’s history when people kissing openly out in public did have an expectation of privacy.  That technology has made it possible to observe such activities without physically being on the scene to do so means naught.

But that’s the problem many people now have.  Technology is making it easier and easier for other people to keep tabs on our lives.  Security cameras make it possible to watch people’s activities while in public areas.  Satellite mapping tools like those offered by Google make it easy to look at people’s homes.  Internet databases have made it easier to track down criminal and civil records.  Now all of these things have never been “private.” Never has anyone ever gotten in trouble simply for looking at someone else’s house or watching other people in public.  Or checking their criminal records down at the local court house.

But now that it’s so easy anyone can do it from their computer desk?  Everyone’s a little...creeped out.

Ultimately, though, we’re just going to have to deal with it.  It’s unreasonable to start declaring things “private” that have never been that way before.  Just as it’s unreasonable to say that a principal violated two of his students’ privacy when he caught them kissing on a security camera.

And by the way, kids have no expectation of privacy when it comes to their parents.  And I would fully expect the principal at my daughter’s school to keep me informed of who she’s making out with at school, be it boy or girl.

Comments

Have girls and boys who are observed kissing in public punished in the same manner?


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2Hotel9 on June 30, 2007 at 03:51 pm
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2hotel9 wrote:

Have girls and boys who are observed kissing in public punished in the same manner?

Had anyone else asked that question, I’d’ve just assumed it was done ironically.

Knowing absolutely nothing about this particular school, I can answer with complete certainty: No, opposite-sex couples who’ve kissed in public have most definitely NOT been punished in the same manner.

Dave on June 30, 2007 at 05:24 pm

Dave.  Really?  How can you assert with such authority that no parent has been contacted about heterosexual PDA?  I would make the assertion that the ACLU would ban PDA just as was done in a recent “no touching” zero tolerance” school.  Does anyone have some facts to add to this case?


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Chief RZ on June 30, 2007 at 05:41 pm
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chief:

Really?

Really.
dave on June 30, 2007 at 06:09 pm

dave.  I will try just once again.  What evidence, or knowledge to you have to share with sayanything?  What school district?
I can tell you that in the school I worked in, on many occasions, parents were told of PDA, and worse.  Hand-holding was about as far as students were allowed to go without being “written up.” I will wait about 10 minutes, then check back tomorrow for your facts.


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Chief RZ on June 30, 2007 at 06:44 pm
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Were the girls punished, or did the Principal just talk to their parents?

Because I remember the principal at my high school calling parents (or sending a letter) if kids were caught making out in the hall.


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Rob on June 30, 2007 at 07:12 pm

PDA is not tolerated in most schools and it’s clearly stated in student handbooks. These handbooks are to read by students and parents, signed and returned. If the PDA rule was broken on or off the video then the school has all the rights to punish the girls. The punishment has to be the stated punishment that is in the handbook and followed to the specific word.
Personally, I can not understanding ANY authority not communicating with the student prior to contacting the parents. There is absolutely no logical reasoning behind that what so ever.
Most school give so many warnings before even asserting the rule and then the students are advised of their disobedience and then advice as to what will proceed from there. I am fairly sure the school was justified in enforcing the rule (if it’s the rule for everyone) but it clearly violated the student’s rights to recognize, comprehend and conclude where their actions got them.
Informing the parents first was so naive. I am appalled at this Principles standards. What he did was equal to being a snitch and tattler. Why on earth would the school authorities not allow the students their right to tell their own parents first. Isn’t that how we teach responsibility?
Grr… : /


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Anna on July 1, 2007 at 01:56 am

Anna, you are so right!

Perhaps the principal should have spoken to the girls first and gotten some insight into how such a bombshell would have been taken by their parents - maybe this was an experiment and neither girl was sure yet.
Encouraging the child to be open about their sexual orientation with their parents would be a viable step.
I’m more concerned by the reaction of the parents, than that of the school.


Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.

ManofFireandLight on July 1, 2007 at 02:28 am

Rob:

And I would fully expect the principal at my daughter’s school to keep me informed of who she’s making out with at school, be it boy or girl.

Trust me.  You’re better off not knowing… Raise her to make responsible decisions, and if they do things that the authorities think is wrong but really not harmful (e.g.  PDA), be clever enough not to get caught.  That’s about as good as it gets.

Carrick on July 1, 2007 at 07:17 am

What he did was equal to being a snitch and tattler.

It seems to me that, since we have turned public schools into what are essentially daycare and indoctrination facilities, the principal was simply being responsible.  Besides, isn’t a bit juvenile to try to label someone as a “snitch” and a “tattler” for doing his job?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 07:59 am

His job is to educate children. And he is doing a bangup job, teaching them to not get caught.


Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

2Hotel9 on July 1, 2007 at 08:27 am

You’re better off not knowing

I disagree with that.  I also disagree that the state requires us to send them our children but they have no obligation to let the parents know of questionable behavior. 

If fact the proper way to look at it is the schools are being run for the parents.  It’s the parents duty to prepare their children for adulthood.  If you leave it up to the students they won’t work to improve themselves at that age.

I didn’t think much of this topic to start with but it really does expose (in a minor way) the corrosive effects of public schools.  In my opinion school vouchers would fix this problem “toot sweet.” Rather than answering to a school board the school would be answering to their customers, the parents.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 08:45 am

If fact the proper way to look at it is the schools are being run for the parents.

Actually, we all pay for the schools, not just the parents of the children in school.  As such, we ought to have the right to demand good performance for our money.  Why doesn’t the system run that way right now?  Public schools seem to have no accountability to the public.  Socialism?  I guess that’s just another addition to the list of things that get worse under socialism.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 08:54 am

we all pay for the schools,

Quite true, but it’s my opinion that the people who most care about the future of the children are the parents of those children.

Certainly society benefits from an educated population.  However giving society control of the education system has resulted in inferior schools and differing agenda’s besides what’s best for the child.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on July 1, 2007 at 08:57 am

Quite true, but it’s my opinion that the people who most care about the future of the children are the parents of those children.

The people who benefit the most from the present public school situation are the big govt socialists, so maybe they are the ones who “care” the most.  Have you ever checked out the budget of the Department of Education(which educates zero students)?  It’s a real gravy train for them, and disaster for the rest of us.  The taxpayers get ripped off, the parents lose control of their children, and the kids get little more than socialist indoctrination.  If society at large benefits from education, why can’t we get any from the public schools?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 09:04 am

robert108, the principle did just the opposite of what you claim he was doing. He was not taking responsibility at all. He didn’t know how to handle this unique situation so he shucked it off on the parents.
The principle did several things wrong. To start with, why did he not inform the girls of their insubordination? Why did he “pass the buck” to the parents? Why were the girls not counseled and given directions on what is proper and what is not? Why did he only contact one parent and not both? (etc)
The entire situation was handled incorrectly.
Nope, I firmly believe he was wrong. Yes, I believe the parents have to know and better be told of anything relating to their child at school .. but this guy clearly didn’t know how to handle it and he needs to be reprimanded for not following normal procedures.


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Anna on July 1, 2007 at 03:08 pm

This is irrelevant crap. This is the real world.


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2Hotel9 on July 1, 2007 at 03:10 pm

2Hotel9 ... what are you goingon about?


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Anna on July 1, 2007 at 03:28 pm

Can you not read? Can you not see? Or will you not?


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2Hotel9 on July 1, 2007 at 03:33 pm

This is a mark on all our souls. It was in our power to stop this shit.


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2Hotel9 on July 1, 2007 at 03:34 pm

Those people died slow, agonizing deaths within sight of an American FOB. Our ROE condemned them to that death. Sleep well.


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2Hotel9 on July 1, 2007 at 03:38 pm

Being smei-retired I have worked for my local school district for the past 4 years, working with special needs children, and I hope leaning on that experience I can bring some light to this matter.

1. I don’t know about this particular school district, but privacy laws are so strict in my state with school children that the Principal would not be allowed to talk to the girls together, as he would be accussed of violating their privacy rights; and when talking to the parents he/she is not allowed to mention the other students name, again for fear of violating her privacy.

2. Videos in schools and on school buses are there mostly for safety concerns; but they also protect the bus driver, teacher, aide, janitor or other school district employee from false charges of physical and/or sexual abuse. A video is also valuable when the facts of a story cannot be proven, as the visual image can provide proof of guilt. On the reverse side, it can protect the student when they need to prove their story is truthful. I imagine the Principal was faced with doubting parents and used the video to support his claims.

Anna: How do you know the other students were not contacted and shown the same video? As I said above, the Principal is guided by very strict rules and cannot divulge whether he spoke to the other parents or showed them the video. How do you know that this possible kissing situation was not discussed with all students and/or these students in particular prior to this incident, included in the rules of behavior, and how do you now how he spoke to each student and what he said to the parents? There are too few facts for you to make such sweeping accusations against the Principal.

The ACLU, liberals and other groups have made teaching a living hell in far too many cases. In my school district/state if a student is violent they can only be suspended three times and then if more violent episodes occur, it is a lengthy and difficult process to get these students sent to alternative education programs, meanwhile the young female teacher or aid gets kicked, punched, bitten and spat upon every week. This Principal and the staff have to worry that no matter what they do their careers can be ended, they can be sued and their lives ruined. So, please don’t judge this Principal until you have walkde a mile in his shoes.


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Neiman on July 1, 2007 at 04:07 pm

He didn’t know how to handle this unique situation so he shucked it off on the parents.

Actually, it’s the parents’ duty to raise their children, not the duty of a school principal.  You are dead wrong here.  I don’t know why you are so determined to blame the principal, but he is not responsible for what the parents have done; he is only responsible to inform them of what their children are doing in school.  He did.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 1, 2007 at 04:26 pm

robert108, I say he was wrong for not confronting his students about their insubordination. I never said the parents aren’t supposed to not be told or that it’s not “the parents’ duty to raise their children”. I said, If the students broke the rule why were they not confronted immediately and informed of their required punishment WHICH BTW, INCLUDES CONTACTING THE PARENTS. Of course it’s not the Principles job to raise the kids but it’s his job to perform his job correctly. His job and the others at the school have a responsibility in this matter also. If he didn’t have a responsibility then who’s rule did the student break ... it wasn’t the parents rule the Principle was enforcing. The article said it’s a school rule and applies to all students. 
robert108 ... the Principle and counselor should have confronted the student PRIOR to the parents being notified. It is the students responsibility to tell the parent with a letter of information from the school, with a follow up call from the the Principle. Then the parent is aware of the punishment process that will occur at school and the parents can deal with it as they wish at home.
And, if you think it’s a wise idea to totally leave the responsibility to the parents for their kids actions .. you’re a fool. It is less then a 50% chance a parents will even care or deal with it. Chances are the parent will be irate and claim their child didn’t do wrong and put the blame someplace else. (yes even with the video)
The good parents out there that take responsibility for raising their kids are a minority.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 09:48 am

Anna: These kids were engaging in sexual activity in a public school, in a public area(thus the video), and were underage to boot.  The principal did exactly what he should have done, under those circumstances.  He is the caretaker of those children while they are in school, and his first duty was to inform the parents.  He did the right thing.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 10:00 am

Anna: Furthermore, those girls knew what they were doing was against the rules; if they didn’t, then the homosexual indoctrination that goes on in public schools is responsible for their disorderly conduct, and the parents need to be brought in as soon as possible.  I put it down to the usual adolescent desire to “tweak authority”, and they got the appropriate response to teach them the consequences of said “tweaking”.  He did the right thing.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 10:03 am
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Where I went to school it was against the rules for any students, gay or straight, to make out in the hallways.  It happened, but when you got caught your parents got called.

I really don’t see what’s so unreasonable about that policy.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

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Rob on July 2, 2007 at 10:31 am

The ACLU, liberals and other groups have made teaching a living hell in far too many cases.

Neiman, EXACTLY!! You could not be more correct. As a female teacher in jr/sr high I was in the perfect career until ACLU removed our rights for control and respect. When we were allowed authority to kick out any student that disrupted the class then very few disrespected a teacher. The students knew in order to pass the class they had to be there. I never had an issue I couldn’t handle. Until I lost the right to remove them from class along with them flunking or remind them of the harsh punishment they will be dealing with.
I had a student a foot taller and weighing twice my weight walk up to the front of class during a lecture, pining me against the board and informing me (and everyone else) that he’d rather talk about how he’s going to fuck me. Then when his face is less than an inch from mine hes whispers the details and then adds that there’s nothing I can do because if I lay a hand on him he’ll have my job that day. He wasn’t removed from the class for two days so that my “story” could be investigated. The law decided I was correct. He got probation, removed him to inhouse for 3 days and then returned him to my class. I was informed I could not to show any animosity or condemnation. My administration (and law)supported me all the way but ACLU makes it impossible to enforce authority over any public student. I hate the ACLU.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 10:43 am

Rob and robert108… I NEVER said the parents shouldn’t be called.

Anna says:"YES BY GOD THE PARENTS ARE TO BE CONTACTED”

There, you now see I agree that the parents better be called anytime their child is involved with something. I am saying that the student should have been confronted with being caught doing wrong and held responsible for having to tell their parents. That is part of their punishment. Come on guys.. It’s called confession and it doesn’t come easy for the normal child to do. I can’t believe you would not agree that telling your own parents was more punishment then almost anything. If more kids were held accountable and responsible then maybe they would think twice about getting in the situation again.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 10:55 am

I am saying that the student should have been confronted with being caught doing wrong and held responsible for having to tell their parents.

In other words, the kids should have been trusted to tell their parents what they did(and truthfully, as well), rather than the principal communicating with the parents directly, as he is required to do?  You must be kidding.  Kids try to weasel out of things, and the principal’s job is student discipline, isn’t it?  Otherwise, why not just let the kids run the school?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 11:02 am

My son had a little fight at school.  I told the principle my sons side of the story and asked if that’s how it happened.

He thanked me for considering that my son might have been less than truthful.  Apparently most parents take their kids word for gospel and take it out on the faculty and staff.

When you think about it, lying to get out of trouble is a rational act.  The thing is it takes a while to learn that it never works and you get in more trouble.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


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The Whistler on July 2, 2007 at 11:14 am

robert106, I understand that you feel a certain way and do you think anyone could possibly be a public school teacher and not see that all children are budding con artists? All children go through this phase and it’s natural. What isn’t natural is how parents are falling for it and it’s ruining societies morals. If more parents were to actually know their child, like Mr. Peabody there, they would see through their child’s story and question it. At the same time the child is learning that covering up the truth doesn’t work in his lil’ world. Good job The Whistler, you’re a commodity to society.
NOW BACK TO YOU MR robert108. Obviously you refuse to or possibly you truly don’t understand what I say.
I said--->

It is the students responsibility to tell the parent with a letter of information from the school, with a follow up call from the the Principle. Then the parent is aware of the punishment process that will occur at school and the parents can deal with it as they wish at home.

you say--->

kids should have been trusted to tell their parents what they did(and truthfully, as well), rather than the principal communicating with the parents directly,

If you notice the process I mentioned DOES include direct contact with the parent. The difference between how you think is right and how I think is right comes down to this.
You think: As soon as a rule is broken the authorities do not contact and do not confront the accused student? In other words… by pass the student contact the the parent. (kind of like, let them deal with it).
I think: As soon as a rule is broken the authorities are to contact and confront the accused student. In other words… let them become aware of the situation and the required procedures will occur.  (kind of like, let them start sweatin). The policies allow the student to go home and do the responsible thing and fess up to mom and dad. They have with them the letter signed by the Principle that contains all the necessary info. The following day, the Principle does the routine follow up call to confirm all parties involved have communicated correctly. You see robert108… this is what is called teaching responsibility and morals to our child.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 12:14 pm
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Rob and robert108… I NEVER said the parents shouldn’t be called.

I didn’t say you said that.  I’m sort of jumping in late on the thread and haven’t read a lot of the comments.  I was just making a statement in general, not really aimed at anyone.


The war against illegal plunder has been fought since the beginning of the world. But how is… legal plunder to be identified? Quite simply. See if the law takes from some persons what belongs to them, and gives it to other persons to whom it does not belong. See if the law benefits one citizen at the expense of another by doing what the citizen himself cannot do without committing a crime. Then abolish this law without delay … If such a law is not abolished immediately it will spread, multiply and develop into a system.

Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

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Rob on July 2, 2007 at 12:23 pm

You think: As soon as a rule is broken the authorities do not contact and
do not confront the accused student? In other words… by pass the student contact the the parent. (kind of like, let them deal with it).
I think: As soon as a rule is broken the authorities are to contact and confront the accused student. In other words… let them become aware of the situation and the required procedures will occur. (kind of like, let them start sweatin).

What I really think: The Principal works for the parents, not the kids.  When kids misbehave, the principal’s duty is to inform the parents(not for minor stuff, of course, but this isn’t minor).  Requiring the principal to go through the kids puts them on an equal footing with him or her, and that is not the way to go.  I think the shortest path to discipline is the best one with kids.  Consulting with the kids is the way to the sort of school environment you described where you were assaulted by that student in your classroom.  Discipline should be sure, swift and final, with no “wiggle room”, in my opinion.  It’s better for the kids.
It’s highly probable that those girls knew exactly what they were doing, and were waiting to see if they could “get away with it”.  The Principal did the right thing; he did his job.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 01:30 pm

Anna: It’s not just “a rule”, but the sexualization of two adolescent girls.  It would be the same if it had been boy/girl.  Some things are just wrong.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 01:38 pm

Where did I say it was ok? Actually what we are talking about doesn’t even have anything to do with what they got caught doing. MY ISSUE is they got caught and should be held responsible for giving that lovely news to their parents. Make them tell the parent and then the Principle tells the parents. The Principle demanding them or requiring the student to follow procedures is not putting him on their level. He is in authority and he tells them the way it’s going to proceed. What level is this principle if he had no communication with the students? Do the students not get to see how disappointed and mad the authority is of them? Whatever happen to the dreaded fear or low reputation one got for having been called to the principles office? The way you want it ... why have the principle handle it at all just have an office aid work up a standard message to call parents and this will free up the Principle from doing . his expected job of authority of the school.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 02:00 pm

MY ISSUE is they got caught and should be held responsible for giving that lovely news to their
parents.

I disagree; the Principal should go to the parents directly.  That is his responsibility as a school official.  The kids are not his intermediaries.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 03:07 pm

Main Entry: prin·ci·ple
Pronunciation: ‘prin(t)-s(&winkp&l, -s&-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French principe, principle, from Old French, from Latin principium beginning, from princip-, princeps initiator—more at PRINCE
1 a : a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1) : a rule or code of conduct (2) : habitual devotion to right principles c : the laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device
2 : a primary source : ORIGIN
3 a : an underlying faculty or endowment b : an ingredient (as a chemical) that exhibits or imparts a characteristic quality
4 capitalized, Christian Science : a divine principle : GOD
- in principle : with respect to fundamentals usage Although nearly every handbook and many dictionaries warn against confusing principle and principal, many people still do. Principle is only a noun; principal is both adjective and noun. If you are unsure which noun you want, read the definitions in this dictionary.

Main Entry: 2principal
Function: noun
1 : a person who has controlling authority or is in a leading position: as a : a chief or head man or woman b : the chief executive officer of an educational institution c : one who engages another to act as an agent subject to general control and instruction; specifically : the person from whom an agent’s authority derives d : the chief or an actual participant in a crime e : the person primarily or ultimately liable on a legal obligation f : a leading performer : STAR
2 : a matter or thing of primary importance: as a (1) : a capital sum earning interest, due as a debt, or used as a fund (2) : the corpus of an estate, portion, devise, or bequest b : the construction that gives shape and strength to a roof and is usually one of several trusses; broadly : the most important member of a piece of framing

For your edification.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

It is his job to do both.
And if a student broke a rule in class you think the teacher shouldn’t mention it to the student .. just let it go and have someone else take care of it? To me that conveys the message that the teacher doesn’t have the authority over a student and has to go get help to handle it.
btw, Thank you for pointing out my neglectfulness at not correcting an error I knew better than to make. It’s always a pleasure to see someone put so much effort and enthusiasm into their work ...  even if it’s just in the simple matter of mocking. Job well done!
I would like to know what the dean of students/principal would have done if the parent said “so what” or “oh well kids will be kids”


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 04:32 pm

Anna: I wasn’t mocking you; you used the word incorrectly so many times, I felt constrained to point it out to you in a non-emotional way.  Those excerpts are from Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary.
It isn’t the same as a simple class disturbance, as I have already pointed out.  The consequences of “making out” in class would obviously be different from throwing spitballs, for instance, and you should know that.  This offense involved the sexuality of adolescents on schoolgrounds, which is no small matter, and was handled the way it should have been.  Rather than dressing down the offending students in school, it was handled off-campus, which is appropriate for this type of activity, don’t you agree?  If I were a male principal, I would not want to deal with the girls without the presence of their parents, if only for protection from false allegations of sexual impropriety.  The principal did the right thing.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 04:44 pm

Anna.  I’m with you.  Thanks again for telling The Truth.  I knew of several female teachers who checked out after a confrontation.  The boys/men who do this type of thing should be expelled.  They have no place in public schools.  Their behavior at a minimum destroys the teacher’s credibility.

The only response is home schooling or independent schools.

These type people are disgusting, lover than dirt and deserve to be put under the jungle.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on July 2, 2007 at 05:00 pm

No answer from dave yet after.... 3 days.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on July 2, 2007 at 05:06 pm

No. Doing that he might as well have told them “I’m afraid to involve myself with you because you could bring false allegationsand therefore I don’t have any authority here but I’ll let your parents handle it.
So robert108, when exactly do kids learn they can’t always hide behind their parents? Is it after they’re sitting in jail wondering why their parents can’t get them out of this one .. or perhaps they can begin learning to take responsibilities in smaller issues like in school.
Schools can not continue to be intimidated by the threat of false allegations they need to grow some balls and take back authority. LOL.. besides if he really did have a fear of false allegations, robert108… perhaps he could have used one of his handy dandy cams as a reliable witness.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 05:11 pm

Anna.  We were not allowed to run a camera in our school.  We asked.  I did have an audio recorder in by briefcase, but never had to present it.


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on July 2, 2007 at 05:20 pm

Neither did my school Chief. I can certainly see the reasoning behind it but, Its just very unfortunate that our society has made it come to this.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 05:26 pm

No answer from dave yet after.... 3 days.

dave is an i-pod philosopher… lightweight, small and can change his tune in a manner of seconds!


Those who think the party or the country, will be “taught a lesson” by handing the levers of power over to the liberals will learn a lesson, but it will be at the expense of our country and her liberties. And there are no guarantees that the party or the country will come out stronger, more conservative or better positioned to win elections against the incumbent liberals.

Proof on July 2, 2007 at 05:31 pm

Anna.  Yes it has.  56% of certain people are “single family” moms.  The result is:  no ‘home training’, but as soon as some try to lay down any rules, “my momma at home”!  I never backed down.  They could kill me or leave.  I know this is harsh for some readers and unbelieveable for others, but this is The Truth.  It took years to gain respect, but it was worth it.  I know that many were unable to chance position and don’t blame them.  One returned a few years later as a guidance counsellor and after many years shared a harrowing experience in a classroom similar to yours.  The public needs to know what really goes on in almost all public schools.  These are not isolated incidences!


Communism is evil

Chief RZ on July 2, 2007 at 05:42 pm

That situation actually was just the beginning of the signs of things were never going to be the same for me as a teacher again. That one situation opened the door for many others to see what they can get away with and sadly they could. It wasn’t until later in the year when I attempted to stop a terribly unfair fist fight that ended up injury the student for life. There weren’t any others that could, (would), stop it so I did but by then the guy was so far out of anger control he had no clue I was even there until it was too late. Luckily, there were enough larger guys that stopped him.
In the end it was for the lack of control and authority that did me in. That and the constant negativity and dispirited disposition students have today.
The supt, principal and I left at the end of the year.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 06:02 pm

No. Doing that he might as well have told them “I’m afraid to involve myself with you because you could bring false allegationsand therefore I don’t have any authority here but I’ll let your parents handle it. Wrong.  He did his job; he reported inappropriate sexual behavior between adolescent children to their parents. What you suggest is pandering to the miscreants.
So robert108, when exactly do kids learn they can’t always hide behind their parents? Is it after they’re sitting in jail wondering why their parents can’t get them out of this one .. or perhaps they can begin
learning to take responsibilities in smaller issues like in school. You have it backwards.  He didn’t allow them to BS their way out of what they did.  There was no jail involved, so you just made that up. Nice emotional ploy, but no substance.  In fact, what he did will probably prevent them from being in jail someday, since they got the consequences right away.
Schools can not continue to be intimidated by the threat of false allegations they need to grow some balls and take back authority. LOL.. It’s not the schools that are victimized by false sexual allegations; it’s mostly the male teachers and administrators.  What color is the sky in your world?
besides if he really did have a fear of false allegations,
robert108… perhaps he could have used one of his handy dandy cams as a reliable witness.

You just hate it that those kids were caught, don’t you?  You seem to want them to escape the consequences of their actions.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 06:33 pm

To be truthful robert108 ... they can go to the state pen for all I care. I don’t understand where you got the impression I didn’t think these kids should be punished. Cut off their lips if that is the school policy. Of course they should be punished. Personally, I am for sensible corporal punishment.  The principal should have confronted them with his authority and inform them of what they did wrong, they should have been lectured at, and made to feel bad for breaking the rules and then given their punishment (whatever the school policy is, needs to be strictly enforced and implemented ) AND the parents notified.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 07:18 pm

Cut off their lips if that is the school policy. Of course they should be punished.

You are sounding more and more like Robert108 all the time.  We’ve got to get these kids together.


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 2, 2007 at 07:31 pm

LOL, The Whistler, I am not saying anything differently then I did in my original response. I am simply rewording it until I run out of different ways of putting specific words together into a sentence.  smile


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 07:44 pm

Anna:

Step One: Inform the parents.

Step Two: Do whatever the school code prescribes for what they did.

No prison, no corporal punishment, no maiming.
Just common sense and responsibility.

Justice does not involve the consent of those who violate the rules.  Justice is imposed on them.


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 07:56 pm

What about situations that are not caught on video? Do the authorities at the school call the parents over all issues (at this level)without confronting the students first? No, they don’t. No school has in their policy to not clarify that the accused understands what is going to proceed. They can not treat a video taped offense any differently than others. Since they can’t just call the parent and say “I think your child is guilty of this fairly serious action, (this would be an excellent time for the principal to add, But don’t beat the tar out of your child until we know for a fact). It isn’t practical or logical.


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Anna on July 2, 2007 at 08:15 pm

They can not treat a video taped offense any differently than others.

Right, because proof is bad.  (I meant of course proof in the legal sense, not as in the blogger formally known as proofreader.)


The Debate is over!  Global Whining has been confirmed.


The Whistler's signature
The Whistler on July 2, 2007 at 08:26 pm

A different situation would call for a different response.  Duh.

What if the students had been giraffes?  What if this had happened on Mars?  What if reality isn’t real?
(I’m actually mocking you this time)
Why not deal with the situation as it occurred? Why all the verbal gymnastics?


"If the good men are silent only the wicked are heard.” - Edmund Burke

robert108 on July 2, 2007 at 08:27 pm
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