Say Anything Blog

He didn’t want Iran to know about his bluff.

Saddam did

he could have just opened up his country to inspection to prove that he wasn’t a threat.

The weapons inspectors left the day before the bombs started falling.
They had found no WMD.

If Saddam paid for the trip why did the crack Bush intelligence operatives wait 6 years to reveal the plan?

The weapons inspectors left the day before the bombs started falling.
They had found no WMD.

Saddam wasn’t giving them full access.

Saddam also held elections in Iraq where he won every time with 99% of the vote, and you probably think that was “democracy.”

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Inspectors were blocked from certain facilities, and facilities that had been inspected were tampered with. This from the very inspectors woofie continues to trot out. Saddam played an ongoing shell game, moving equipment and materials, restricting access by inspectors, and bribing the UN officials in charge of overseeing the inspection regime. Keep whistling, woofie, you are almost past the scary cemetery.

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Hotel,

It continues to amaze me how EVERYTHING that Saddam did to block inspectors and to ignore the UN sanctions and resolutions that led up to the war just keeps on being ignored by the left.

Talk about inconvenient truths.

Election ‘08 - We Are So Screwed

Why, you silly wabbit! Only America is evil, EVIL I tells ya! Not terror supporting dictators and their minions. They support Marxist socialism, so, obviously, woofie,boob,sannitized, et al, support and defend them at every turn.

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And in a totally unrelated aside, here is someone who almost gets it.

“Indian minister attacks biofuels

Greed is overtaking the common good of the world

Indian Finance Minister P Chidambaram has said that it is “outrageous” that developed countries are turning food crops into bio fuels.

He said that countries like the US were doing so while the world’s poor are struggling with surging food prices.” Read it all and I think you will see why I say “almost”.

h/t BBC

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Run our vehicles on rice and corn while developing nations starve. Liberals never cease to amaze me.

Biofuels were not, are not, and will not ever be the solution in the search for alternative energy souces.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

WOOF:

If Saddam paid for the trip why did the crack Bush intelligence operatives wait 6 years to reveal the plan?

Most of the people who work at the CIA are Democrats, actually, and generally are personally in opposition to Bush and his policies.

Pparets:

Biofuels were not, are not, and will not ever be the solution in the search for alternative energy sources.

I’m pretty sure you’re wrong there.

Corn ethanol, probably no.  But it will come in time, I have no doubt about that at all.  And it probably won’t need plants, I expect the breakthrough to be form bioengineering of bacteria.

Anyway, the reason there is starvation is due to a break down in civil order:  For example, some areas are violent enough that reliable transportation to bring in crops isn’t available, and there isn’t enough stability to even grow ones own food safely.

Carrick:  One million barrels of oil a day from bacteria? Not in our lifetime.

America’s farmers are largely dependent on international food trade for profit. And while there are certainly places where local chaos disrupts the food supply, our agricultural surpluses feed vast numbers of people in India and Japan, to name just two where there is no disruption.

The biofuel scam is already affecting the international market and the lives of people in 3rd world nations.  You know that.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Pparets:

One million barrels of oil a day from bacteria? Not in our lifetime.

Can I quote you on that?

The biofuel scam is already affecting the international market and the lives of people in 3rd world nations.  You know that.

It has almost nothing to do with the long-term problem of food shortages in third world nations.  You apparently don’t know that.

Saddam wasn’t giving them full access.

Inspectors were blocked from certain facilities

And after bush invaded and occupied a country that did not attack us and when we did get unlimited access, did we find the WMD?

Now, look, I—part of the reason we went into Iraq: was—the main reason we went into Iraq: at the time was we thought he had weapons of mass destruction. It turns out he didn’t, but he had the capacity to make weapons of mass destruction.

“Weapons of mass destruction-related program activities.”

We’ve had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th.

“We actually misnamed the war on terror. It ought to be the Struggle Against Ideological Extremists Who Do Not Believe in Free Societies Who Happen to Use Terror as a Weapon to Try to Shake the Conscience of the Free World.”

Talk about inconvenient truths.

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

rbb,

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

good morning Trekkie Rod

“If a conservative is still a republican after the last 13 years, he is blind to the fact that his party of choice has failed him utterly.” – Realitybasedbob

Good morning “Blackwater” boob.

Out Here
Rodney G. Graves

Ceterum censeo Parthia esse delendam
Latin: “Furthermore, Parthia (Persia aka modern day Iran) should be destoyed”

Thousands of binary artillery and rocket rounds. 100s of thousands of tons of chemicals. Aircraft aerosol delivery systems. Thousands of dead Kurds and Shia’ and Iranians.  And the last nail? Three words. Dual. Use. Technology.

Bubye, boob.

Carrick, there have already been riots in Mexico, Brazil, and Malaysia over the sharp rise in corn,wheat, and soybean prices. All driven by the insanity of biofuel. Ethanol, made from foodstuffs, will not ever replace, or in any substantial way supplement, petroleum. Not. Ever.

Alcohol is a piss poor fuel. It has massive transport and storage problems. Hell, fire depts are not equipped to handle alcohol fires on the scale of tanker truck or gas station accidents, and the required foam is hideously expensive.

Government mandating the production of ethanol from foodstuffs is absolute insanity. And it is going to bring chaos and death on a vast scale. Now, whose purpose does that serve?

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Dual. Use. Technology.

They also found warehouses full of castor beans (used to make ricin) in bags marked “fertilizer”.

A troll is someone who only wants to stir up trouble, not have an honest debate.  Some signs that a poster is a troll:
* Dodges questions from other posters * Refuses to give sources
* When one of its arguments is shown to be false, either ignores the proof or moves the goalposts.  Heh. (From the LGF faq)

2Hotel9:

Carrick, there have already been riots in Mexico, Brazil, and Malaysia over the sharp rise in corn,wheat, and soybean prices. All driven by the insanity of biofuel.

The main culprit for grain shortages is the loss of crops in China due to cold weather.  I’ve not heard of riots over soybeans, perhaps they’ve happened though.  Wheat is not used at all in biofuels, and in the US the exploitation of soybeans for biodiesel is minimal.  I think that people are way overplaying the biofuel as villian card here. It’s almost becoming a right-wing version of what global warming is for the left.

Government mandating the production of ethanol from foodstuffs is absolute insanity. A

This part we agree on.  Government shouldn’t be trying to control the market.  Let the marketplace shake this out.

We all have opinions, and when it comes to prognostication of future technologies, I’d be willing to be none of us get it right.

Question, Carrick:  When it becomes more profitable for farmers in this nation and across the globe to produce the stuff of biofuels, where will our food come from?

The poor diet of most Afghanis [even in peace time] as a result of the lucrative poppy farming industry - in a land with precious little farmland to start with - comes to mind.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Wheat is not used at all in biofuels, and in the US the exploitation of soybeans for biodiesel is minimal.

What we did see here in this major farming area is a lot of farmers NOT planting wheat in order to raise corn due to the higher (ethanol demand) prices.

That contributed to the shortage and led to the huge runup in the price of wheat.

I would think that soybeans also are affected by the same factor.  (We also raise a lot of those).

Finally when it comes to biodiesel around here we raise canola which is being converted.

That still amounts to acres being diverted from making food to making fuel.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Pparets:

When it becomes more profitable for farmers in this nation and across the globe to produce the stuff of biofuels, where will our food come from?

The short answer is they can do both.  Long range I expect switch grass and other cellulosic ethanol sources, such as corn stover (which is equal in biomass to the corn kernels by the way), to be the main biomass source for ethanol.  This requires the development of new technologies for these to be economically efficient at current petroleum prices. I understand there are pilot plants for switch grass conversion being built right now… so it’ll be interesting to see how that pans out on the market.

The poor diet of most Afghanis [even in peace time] as a result of the lucrative poppy farming industry - in a land with precious little farmland to start with - comes to mind.

Afghani farmers are not able to farm much above the subsistence level to begin with, meaning they wouldn’t earn much of a living selling their product, so that’s not much of a comparison.

Whistler:

What we did see here in this major farming area is a lot of farmers NOT planting wheat in order to raise corn due to the higher (ethanol demand) prices.

Do you have numbers for that?

That contributed to the shortage and led to the huge runup in the price of wheat.

By how much, compared say to surging world-wide demand for wheat?  I appreciate it will have an effect, but we aren’t anywhere close to establishing a cause and effect relation between wheat prices and ethanol production.

I’m not sure how one makes an honest comparison here.  Wheat production suffered last year due to regional drought, but in spite of that the overall quantity increased.  Looking at the data, there is a large year-to-year fluctuation in production level, with the smallest level being in 2002/03… the largest being the next year just to show what a headache trying to come up with something objective here can be.

Carrick call in anecdotal from driving around the Red River Valley. However for around here that’s a fair characterization.

Also I did attend a seminar by an ag expert talking about the amount of corn being used as ethanol and the increased acres planted of corn.

That increased corn planting must have come out of another crop.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

That increased corn planting must have come out of another crop.

Only if they were at 100% capacity before, which generally they’re not.

I’m not saying your arguments don’t sound reasonable, I’m just asking for substantiation.  If I were the one making the argument, you know I would provide it if I could.

By the way, I do know as a fact that wheat production for the United States increased in 2007 from 2006, in spite of drought like conditions.  That at least doesn’t seem to line up with your argument.

Only if they were at 100% capacity before, which generally they’re not.

That doesn’t actually make sense per US ag census numbers.  From 1992 to 2002 the amount of farmland in North Dakota has remained somewhat constant, with a slight downward trend.  2002 is the last year for which there are numbers available as the census is only done every five years and the 2007 numbers aren’t available yet.

Anyway, since 1974 there’s been a downward trend in farm acreage (click the thumbnail):

Given this, I think it’s pretty safe to assume that the government-manufactured surge in ethanol production is eating into other crops.  At least in North Dakota.

I can back this up with personal experience too.  I have opportunity to talk to a lot of growers, and a lot of them tell me about their switch to ethanol crops.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Timely and interesting, Carrick.  DRUDGE is reporting right now that food riots are spreading because the cost of rice has risen 30%. No mention of the biofuel issue… but this crisis will continue to grow.

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Rob:

Given this, I think it’s pretty safe to assume that the government-manufactured surge in ethanol production is eating into other crops.  At least in North Dakota.

Fine, I’m just asking for numbers.  If it is as cut and dry as you guys are suggesting, it should be easy to prove.

As to the decrease in farmland, that is partly because we’ve become more efficient over time, so we can produce more crops with less.  That doesn’t address the question of how much excess capacity we have.

Pparets:

DRUDGE is reporting right now that food riots are spreading because the cost of rice has risen 30%. No mention of the biofuel issue… but this crisis will continue to grow.

Sounds rather alarmist to me.  And again your connection with biofuels is tenuous at best.

Besides widespread crop failures in China (say you guys remember the warnings of mass crop failures if global warming continued?  Apparently, cold bothers them more than heat.  Go figure.), the other big troll mangling up the garden is steeply rising energy costs.

While I don’t expect corn-based ethanol to do much in terms of reducing fuel cost, you do have to admit that there are a lot more market forces governing commodity prices besides just shift in land usage by farmers driven by biofuel demand.

The same is true here in west PA. Livestock feed prices have been rising steadily for 3 years. Acreage that was planted in multiple crops are now being exclusively planted in corn. And the price at dock on that corn is steadily rising.

The major increase in illegal forest clearing in Brazil and Asia is also linked to increased corn planting. Lula, in Brazil is, in fact, rapidly approaching a crisis over the rush to sell off corn for fuel production.

Add to this the not insignificant fact that alcohol is a piss poor fuel, and that the not inconsiderable increases in fertilizer and pesticide pollution is already being heralded as A BAD THING by the environazis, and it is clear that the political chattering classes have created a massive problem where none existed just a very short time ago.

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And as for numbers. People can not eat numbers. They can eat corn. Unless it is turned into a piss poor, hideously expensive fuel.

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Oh, and don’t forget the HUGE amounts of water needed to produce ethanol. And the HUGE amounts of non-redeemable waste products created.

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If I were the one making the argument, you know I would provide it if I could.

Yes you would and I appreciate it when you do.

Here’s a USDA report on ethanol and the corn market. 

In 2001 we converted about 500 million bushels to ethanol.  In 2007 it looks to be around 2.5 Billion.

In comparison we’re using about 6 billion bushels for feed. 

Perusing the net it seems that corn planting went up faster than expect to around 90 million acres. Thats up from around 80 million acres.

The ethanol industry is big enough to affect the corn market as well as other crops.  On of the articles I found said that a good chunk of the crops not planted were soybeans.

And the ethanol industry is expected to double so that we are burning almost as much corn as we are feeding the moo cows.

I should read the USDA report and report better on this, but I’m not in the mood.

you do have to admit that there are a lot more market forces governing commodity prices besides just shift in land usage by farmers driven by biofuel demand.

Absolutely, especially last years run up in wheat prices.  On the other hand CORN went up the year before which led to the diversion of wheat acres (at least around here.)

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

2Hotel9,nobody here is arguing corn ethanol anyway. I was mostly interested in whether anybody who wants to exploit anecdotes had any numbers to back their assertions. 

I’m a person who lives and dies by what can be established by objective means. Anecdotes for me provide a basis for looking at a question in more detail, not for establishing the underlying verity of the claim.  That’s just how I work.

I think by the way, that the illegal forest clearings is not going on because of biofuels.  There is a moratorium on using farm products grown in the Amazon for biofuel.  As to the quality of ethanol as a fuel, I’m not going there with this discussion.  Too OT for now.

What I find interesting here is how biofuels is becoming the right-wings version of that boogieman global warming.  All of the world’s ills can be blamed to it, and things would just be peachy keen if we stopped making them.

What I find interesting here is how biofuels is becoming the right-wings version of that boogieman global warming.

Hey I do better when the farmers around here make more money.  But I don’t think biofuels are the way to go. Now the switchgrasses MAY be different, but they are a ways away from being ready to go. 

I say remove the subsidy and mandates and let the market decide. 

BTW, that USDA report documents a significant drop in soybean acreage due to corn AND the price effect of using soybeans for biodiesel.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Who hijacked this thread anyhow?

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

Long story short, ethanol is a piss poor fuel, and without government subsidies and mandates it would not be soaking up so much of the corn crop.

Una Salus Victus Nullam Sperare Salutem

Toot, no one gives a crap about Jim McDermott. Just ask his wife.

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Whistler, that’s a start.  What I don’t see are numbers that point to a real substitution of food capacity for biofuel capacity.  The limited data I was able to find in terms of production numbers suggest our actual production of food increased in 2007.

If I had to weigh in on this, I would guess the main cause for high food costs are energy related, after that the shortages in wheat are due to the crop failures in China, then maybe biofuels.

Anyway, I wouldn’t go to far with the numbers.  The data I saw on wheat production were extremely variable as I mentioned. It’s hard to put much stake on the number here, other than to say they don’t line up firmly on the hypothesis that the main cause for food prices is coming from biofuel-related crop substitution.

2Hotel9

Long story short, ethanol is a piss poor fuel, and without government subsidies and mandates it would not be soaking up so much of the corn crop.

We all agree that governmental forces are distorting the market and that should stop.  I think you’re being overly harsh on its utility as a fuel, but I say let the market decide on that.

Whistler:

Who hijacked this thread anyhow?

Pparets as usual. 

At least it was’t RBB posting that same tired link of Rumfseld in Iraq.

Who hijacked this thread anyhow?

I don’t know, but guess who decided to play the game along with them? Hmmm? Whistler? Not that I don’t get suckered into that on a regular basis and you only do it occasionally.

No matter the age or state of health, for a military man it is always glorious to tilt at windmills, rescue a fair Dulcinea and be a gallant knight in armor in a glorious cause.

It’s an interesting discussion coming from a farm area.

Carrick I don’t doubt that there are other reasons for the spike in grain prices.  However it seems to me that a little shortage leads to much higher prices whereas a little surplus gives us very low prices.  I don’t change my habits based on the price of groceries, at least not yet.

That would mean that the significant amount of distortion in the market for ethanol can make a huge difference in pricing. 

We’ve had other crop failures before.  We haven’t seen these price spikes.

I do think world wide affluence would have given us a slow rise in farm commodity prices.

What’s going to happen to US industry when the global warming extremists like John McCain double the price of electricity?  I would think all these factories will close and set up in countries where they aren’t scared of technology.

The CEO of General Mills was on CNBC today and said the higher living standards in India and China were responsible for the higher cost of foods rather than ethanol.
Looks like Time magazine disagrees.

Who hijacked this thread anyhow?

Pparets as usual. 

Actually, it wasn’t.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

LDS:  True, I didn’t.  But I tried!

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

Sally:

Actually, it wasn’t.

Ha! So what! 

I just wanted to pick on Pparets.

Another factor contributing to rising commodities prices is their use as a hedge against the falling dollar.  Forgot about that one.

Carrick:  That is soooo wrong!

"Here lies, in honored glory, an American soldier, known but to God.”

The stakes are high. Whether the issue is the economy, or energy, or the federal courts or national security, the right answers are coming not from the Democrats, but from the Republicans. The surge of operations that began a year ago is succeeding. The only way to lose this fight is to quit. Richard M. Cheney, Vice President, 30 May, 2008

I just wanted to pick on Pparets.

One of my favorite hobbies as well!

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Actually I wanted to use “pparets”, “authoring a hagiography” and John Syndey McCain in the same sentence, but I thought that *might* be a bit over the top!

Heh heh.

We’ll let him accomplish that feat. Again.

“To love is not to stare steadfast at one another...it is to look forward, in the same direction.”
Saint-Exupéry

Actually, gang, I hyjacked this thread! And I’m a gonna do it again. Cause no one gives a crap about Jim"moron"McDermott, just ask his wife.

This ought to stir the pot! I especially like this qoute,"If Max, Chuck and their buddies in Congress want to be helpful, they might better turn their attention to the housing crisis, which is real and immediate and has serious implications for the financial system and the economy.

Contrary to what you might be hearing, the goal here shouldn’t be to prevent housing prices from falling. In fact, the aim ought to be to get them to fall as quickly as possible to a level consistent with the incomes of the people who live in them, or could potentially buy them. For it is only at that point that sellers, buyers and lenders will regain the confidence necessary to start selling, buying and lending again.”, could not agree more.

Just because you can find an idiot to pay 5-10 times what a property is actually worth does not mean everyone should do it. Artificial inflation of real estate values has been a major problem for 40 years. High time for a readjustment. In the downward direction.

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