Everything before "but" is B.S. You say you don't believe in penalizing people, yet that's exactly what you're doing with "affirmative" action.

This is a failure of black America, initialized by past slights but now used as a crutch by many.

Well I'm glad you admit this. Now you need to look for a solution rather than enforcing the behavior.

slarrow says, "The point of Rob’s post is to force supporters of affirmative action to face that their position (1) has real costs, and (2) imposes those costs in an unjust manner. Which of these do you deny?"

It's obvious that supporters of "affirmative" action don't deny either of those. They instead ignore the point.

It has been my experience that people develop chips on their shoulders. EVERYONE does! Someone cuts in front of you at the store, you get a chip. Someone gets a better car than you, a better house, you get a chip. Envy builds chips.

The most successful of people are those that are able to flick those chips off of their shoulders as soon as the form. Once you realize that few people are "out to get you" your life becomes yours to mold.

One of the best things about Christianity (and most religions) is that once immersed in them, you relinquish control of your life to God. Once your life is in God's hands, you tend to develop less chips… you don't *TRY* to get people to accept you… You let things happen as you live your life according to morals and ethics rather than by "what others will think".

Too many worry about "What will my friends think" and less about "doing what's right".

Everyone… The problem here is not one of racial platitude (which can be handled with the Law) but with racial attitudes, which can not be handled with the law. Forcing a racist to hire based upon race is not going to change their opinion… it is going to solidify it.

Another MAJOR problem is the "out of wedlock" birth rates and (quite frankly) the culture. Too much of the black culture is about trying to be the WORST person. Too few espouse the family values that develop individuals into productive members of society.

Changing the mindset of the ignorant racists (white and black) and the mindset of the "gangsta's" should be the focus. Providing handouts ensures that the current generation of blacks will be kept in a non-compete mentality. There is no reason to achieve greatness if you find everything you need handed to you.

There is a lot less racism out there than there used to be. There is still some, but there is some from BOTH SIDES. Can you imagine if the Congress of the US wanted to set up a Congressional WHITE Caucus?

Rob, The new preview thing is cool!

Could it be that Asians committ less crime proportionately to all of the other groups?
You deny that there's an ongoing societal stigma against blacks, particularly black men? I don't deny that blacks are comitting crime, and that many of the problems are within the community — but to assume that the dominant media image has no part in the problem? Denial.

Making excuses? I'm talking about way before the university level when it comes to having to work twice as hard. I'm talking about kids that have a community openly antagonistic to academic advancement, teachers who buy into it and try to infantilize their pupils, a media environment that tells them they can't achieve, etc. I think it is you who are making the excuses here.

I don't think anyone here is saying there isn't a problem. Yes, racism exists. It is a problem. We just don't think affirmative action (what we're seeing as solving inequality with more inequality) is the solution.

So the government should simply rubber stamp discriminatory practices in the pursuit of making money? I don’t think so.

Of course we don't want the government to "rubber stamp" discrimination. To imply that we do is disingenuous. I think the government should punish, harshly, discriminatory practices when and where they appear. Lets end discrimination by enforcing fair hiring practices, not backing unfair hiring practices in the opposite direction.

And nobody is trying to say that these minority kids don't have it tough, but we shouldn't be implying that kids in the situation I described above get off much easier. Life's tough all over. All we can do is try to make sure the "playing field" is as level as possible. I don't think we're doing that with affirmative action.

If I stole $10 from you, would it be right for me to steal $10 from someone else just to pay you back? It might solve your problem, but I just created a problem for someone else.

In high school and grade school? I went to a suburban school with a fair number of blacks. We all got the same education and were treated exactly the same. I assume you are referring to inner-city schools, though. But aren't there white kids that attend those schools too? I'm not denying that most city schools aren't as good as suburban ones, but then again the same can be said about rural ones as well. So this problem has nothing to do with race; it is a matter of increasing the quality of our schools.

You continually reapeat that blacks work twice as hard. You don't answer how. I'd like real world examples.

We can go round and round on just how hard it is for "black people" (which is a problem because it treats "black people" as a single monolithic block which just ain't so), but is it really going to get us anywhere? I don't think there are many on the Right who wouldn't happily stomp on actual practicing racists, nor do many on the Right deny that there are unique problems facing some/many black people. But the charge against affirmative action as the remedy is that (a) it's unjust and (b) it's counterproductive. What do you say to those concerns?

I don't think they do. Now I'm not saying that we don't need a solution…I'm just saying that affirmative action isn't it.