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Wednesday, February 22, 2006

South Dakota Bans Abortions, Will Take On Roe

Fantastic...

SIOUX FALLS, South Dakota (Reuters) - South Dakota became the first U.S. state to pass a law banning abortion in virtually all cases, with the intention of forcing the Supreme Court to reconsider its 1973 decision legalizing the procedure.

The law, which would punish doctors who perform the operation with a five-year prison term and a $5,000 fine, awaits the signature of Republican Gov. Michael Rounds and people on both sides of the issue say he is unlikely to veto it.

"My understanding is we are the first state to truly defy Roe v. Wade," the 1973 high court ruling that granted a constitutional right to abortion, said Kate Looby of Planned Parenthood's South Dakota chapter.

State legislatures in Ohio, Indiana, Georgia, Tennessee and Kentucky also have introduced similar measures this year, but South Dakota's legislative calendar means its law is likely to be enacted first.

"We hope (Rounds) recognizes this for what it is: a political tool and not about the health and safety of the women of South Dakota," Looby said.

"If he chooses to sign it, we will be filing a lawsuit in short order to block it," she said after attending the afternoon debate at the state capital in Pierre.

Proponents have said the law was designed for just such a court challenge.

The timing is right, supporters say, given the recent appointments of Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice
Samuel Alito to the high court. The two conservatives could pave the way to a decision overturning Roe v. Wade.


It is clear to any frequent reader of this site that I am staunchly against abortion. My opposition has very little to do with any concern of women's health or privacy issues and a whole lot to do with concern over unborn children being killed in a procedure that far too many see as nothing more than a complicated sort of contraceptive. But all that being said, this challenge to Roe vs. Wade actually has very little to do with abortions.

This is not a battle over the "right" to choose, this is a battle over a state's right to define the legality of something that is not specifically addressed in the Constitution. The Roe ruling made abortions legal by declaring that any law banning them was unconstitutional because it violates a mother's right to privacy, something that makes absolutely no sense at all. Our government already limits the sort of drugs doctors can prescribe to patients. No doctor in this country can write a script for heroin, for instance, or cocaine. Our government also outlaws other sorts of medical procedures. Female genital mutilation, or female "circumcision," is a practice banned here in the U.S., for good and obvious reasons.

Does a government ban on female genital mutilation violate the privacy of those who would seek it? Absolutely not. Nor does a ban on abortions violate the privacy of those seeking that procedure.

Roe needs to be overturned, not so that all abortions will be illegal (they will very likely remain legal in many parts of the U.S. even if Roe should be overturned) but so that the people of states like South Dakota can exercise the sovereignty granted their state by the Constitution.

Comments

Avatar for Justin B

Well said.  And in the end, the Blue States will still be able to keep their murder mills open in the inner cities to perform genocide on 1 in 3 African American pregnancies and perform the 57% of the abortions that occur on Hispanics and Blacks while trumpeting how they are trying to help blacks and Hispanics achieve equality by murdering their children while still in the womb.

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 07:05 am
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I wonder if they’ll need to build more jails to house women and doctors who break the law.  Would they arrest North Dakotans who cross the border into South Dakota?

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:06 am
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Ryan, it doesn’t take but one or two times to prosecute lawbreakers and the others will change their behaviors.  It doesn’t matter what law is made, it needs to be enforced.  Now flight to avoid prosecution could involve a federal crime.

Chief RZ on February 23, 2006 at 07:09 am
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Do you think pregnant women will be placed under house arrest in order to prevent them from leaving the state to get an abortion?

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:16 am
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"I wonder if they’ll need to build more jails to house women and doctors who break the law. "

I think the better question is, will they build more Emergency Rooms to treat the women who turn to the wire hangers.

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 07:20 am
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I think the better question is, will they build more Emergency Rooms to treat the women who turn to the wire hangers.

Right.  Because women can’t just stop having abortions.  They’ll obviously have to turn to hurting themselves.  Because it isn’t like adoption is an option or anything.

Honestly, could you guys get any more hysterical? 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 07:22 am
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It’s not being hysterical, Rob - we’re simply wondering what the effect of the South Dakotan law will be.

Will North Dakotans who have had or performed an abortion be arrested if they go to South Dakota?  Can South Dakota arrest people who commit a crime in a different state?  Or can they arrest only residents of South Dakota, not non-residents?

If a woman travels to Fargo, has an abortion performed, and travels back, how long would she be in jail?

If a doctor performs an abortion in the state, even to save the mother’s life, how long will he go to jail?

I’m wondering, because I can see North Dakota following SD’s footsteps and it worries me. 

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:28 am
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"Right.  Because women can’t just stop having abortions.  They’ll obviously have to turn to hurting themselves.  "

Bingo. 

"Because it isn’t like adoption is an option or anything."

So how’s your adoption going?  I assume you’re adopting at least one of these unwanted children, you’re so gung-ho on the idea.

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 07:30 am
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Oh, and it’s interesting as well that South Dakota did not include any provisions in its law for education, pre- or post-natal care, promotion of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, etc.

Abortions should be safe, legal, and extremely rare - this law does not do anything to promote safety or even to lower the number of abortions.  It’s not difficult for someone to get in a car and drive to Fargo.

Additionally, creating the economic conditions where having a child won’t put the parents in the poorhouse is extremely important - abortions are cheaper than raising a child, which is much more scandalous than abortions themselves. 

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:31 am
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But, honestly, Chief or Rob, will pregnant women be placed under house arrest to prevent them from leaving the state if they’re thought to be pro-choice?

Also, what would the punishment be for someone who aids and abets - a person drives a lady to get an abortion.  How long would that person go to jail? 

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:38 am
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Bingo.

Baloney.  If they hurt themselves, that’s their decision.  They don’t have the right to end the life of the unborn child.

So how’s your adoption going?  I assume you’re adopting at least one of these unwanted children, you’re so gung-ho on the idea.

Right.  Because I can’t be for adoption unless I adopt.  Just like I can’t be for the war in Iraq unless I sign up for the military.  I wonder...can you be for gay marriage even if you don’t want to marry a dude? 

Oh, and it’s interesting as well that South Dakota did not include any provisions in its law for education, pre- or post-natal care, promotion of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, etc.

Why is this the government responsibility?  People are responsible for themselves.  And the point is to ban abortion, not educate people about alternatives.  Killing unborn children is wrong, and the people of South Dakota want that reflected in the law. 

Abortions should be safe, legal, and extremely rare - this law does not do anything to promote safety or even to lower the number of abortions.  It’s not difficult for someone to get in a car and drive to Fargo.

I can only hope that once Roe is Gone Fargo won’t be an option either.  But I’m not sure what point you’re making here.  That people can cross borders to get abortions is hardly an argument against banning them.

Additionally, creating the economic conditions where having a child won’t put the parents in the poorhouse is extremely important - abortions are cheaper than raising a child, which is much more scandalous than abortions themselves.

Right.  So once you’re in office you’re going to put forth some legislation to force the poor to have abortions, right?  Because being poor is obviously worse than murdering the kid before he/she gets out of the womb.

You know, some people are able to overcome poverty to do great things.  And like I said before, adoption is an option.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 07:38 am
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But, honestly, Chief or Rob, will pregnant women be placed under house arrest to prevent them from leaving the state if they’re thought to be pro-choice?

No.  Don’t ask dumb questions.

Also, what would the punishment be for someone who aids and abets - a person drives a lady to get an abortion.  How long would that person go to jail?

Abortions are going to be illegal in South Dakota.  If somebody drives to Minnesota to get an abortion...that’s another matter entirely.  Nobody is talking about putting those people in jail, this challenge is about letting the people of each state decide whether or not abortion will be legal.

Get a grip, kid. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 07:40 am
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The commenters should think and ask the same questions along these lines:  Would ND HP stop people from traveling to SD to rob a bank or commit other murders which is what abortion really is?  This right to choose begins before conception.  There are already a variety of NGOs as well as funded local health departments that are more than ready to provide females and males with information, products and appointments for procedures to prevent unwanted pregnancies.  Why don’t they take advantage of this instead of acting irresponsibily and then killing a baby?   I taught Health Education for 28 years.  We thoroughly discussed a variety of options instead of murder.

Chief RZ on February 23, 2006 at 07:42 am
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Right.  So once you’re in office you’re going to put forth some legislation to force the poor to have abortions, right?  Because being poor is obviously worse than murdering the kid before he/she gets out of the womb.

 I’m in favor of economic development in order to get people better paying jobs so they can afford to have children.  Like it or not, one reason people have abortions is because of their economic situation.  Healthy families need a healthy financial situation.

 Why is this the government responsibility?  People are responsible for themselves.  And the point is to ban abortion, not educate people about alternatives.  Killing unborn children is wrong, and the people of South Dakota want that reflected in the law.

 I take it, from this graph, that you’re opposed to government interference in private lives?  And, if so, are you opposed to President Bush’s healthy families proposals?  What are your thoughts on the Defense of Marriage Act or the gay marriage amendment (since it isn’t the government’s responsibility to tell people how to act...)?

Bottom line is that you miss my point.  The government does have an interest in protecting women and children.  Promoting abstinence and other forms of birth control, promoting improved economic conditions so it’s easier to care for and raise a child, and promoting alternatives to abortion (like adoption) are much, much better than merely banning abortion outright.

Banning abortion will not lower the number of abortions performed.  This bill is useless because it does not prevent abortion.

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:44 am
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Why don’t they take advantage of this instead of acting irresponsibily and then killing a baby?

 Abortion is easier.  Which is why we need laws that make the economic decisions to have a child easier; we need laws to make adoption easier; we need laws to make birth control easier (abstinence, condoms, RU-486, etc.).  When we can make it easier to have a child, adopt a child, or have safe sex, abortions will disappear, which is what everyone wants.

Ryan on February 23, 2006 at 07:47 am
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 I’m in favor of economic development in order to get people better paying jobs so they can afford to have children.  Like it or not, one reason people have abortions is because of their economic situation.  Healthy families need a healthy financial situation.

How about you cut taxes so people can keep more of what they earn rather than spend their tax dollars on government schemes?  If you let people keep their money they’ll spend it, which drives up the demand for products which in turn creates more jobs.

I also find it interesting that you believe children are better off dead than poor.  Who are you to decide that for them?  Do you want to be in charge of who will have a worth worth living and who will not?  Why should anyone be in charge of that? 

I take it, from this graph, that you’re opposed to government interference in private lives?  And, if so, are you opposed to President Bush’s healthy families proposals?  What are your thoughts on the Defense of Marriage Act or the gay marriage amendment (since it isn’t the government’s responsibility to tell people how to act...)?
 

Don’t change the subject.  I disagree with many of the President’s big-government programs, and you know that.

Bottom line is that you miss my point.  The government does have an interest in protecting women and children.  Promoting abstinence and other forms of birth control, promoting improved economic conditions so it’s easier to care for and raise a child, and promoting alternatives to abortion (like adoption) are much, much better than merely banning abortion outright.

Again, why is murdering unborn children better than kids being raised in poverty?  Yeah, poverty sucks.  But "poor" is still better than "dead."  Neither you nor any mother in the whole world has the right to decide that a child’s life isn’t worth living. 

Banning abortion will not lower the number of abortions performed.  This bill is useless because it does not prevent abortion.

Banning rape and murder doesn’t lower the number of those acts...but I’m all in favor of keeping the bans on those things in place. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 07:51 am
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Generally, laws do change behaviors if they are enforced. 

The state has an obligation to protect life, whether old or young. 

People are perfectly capable of finding jobs.  Some refuse to do so and then expect the rest of us to provide everything for them.  It would be interesting to find out how many females actually abort because of economic conditions vs. how many do so for convenience so they can continue their egotistical lifestyle. 

The Truth:  In the 1970s when the scale for welfare actually had seventeen (17) children on it, young girls had babies intentionally so that they could 1) drop out of school, get away from their parents (free housing), party and 2) get money for each child birthed up the the maximum additional amount of 17.

Chief RZ on February 23, 2006 at 07:52 am
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Abortion is easier.  Which is why we need laws that make the economic decisions to have a child easier; we need laws to make adoption easier; we need laws to make birth control easier (abstinence, condoms, RU-486, etc.).  When we can make it easier to have a child, adopt a child, or have safe sex, abortions will disappear, which is what everyone wants.

This is a pipe dream.  If we lived in a perfect economic environment people wouldn’t steal either, but that isn’t about to happen. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 07:53 am

modern instances said, I think the better question is, will they build more Emergency Rooms to treat the women who turn to the wire hangers.

When was the last reported wire hanger abortion? Can you find any news account of one?

So how’s your adoption going?  I assume you’re adopting at least one of these unwanted children, you’re so gung-ho on the idea.

When did you get the idea that one can’t oppose abortion without adopting a kid?

Ryan said, Oh, and it’s interesting as well that South Dakota did not include any provisions in its law for education, pre- or post-natal care, promotion of alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, etc.

That’s not the government’s job Ryan.

Abortions should be safe, legal, and extremely rare

Abortions should be illegal.

...this law does not do anything to promote safety or even to lower the number of abortions.

It doesn’t promote "safety" because it is simply a law outlawing the abortion procedure. Why would it promote safety? Since when are laws supposed to "promote" anything? As for lowering the number of abortions - it will outlaw and effectively decrease the amount to zero. Can’t get much lower than that.

Additionally, creating the economic conditions where having a child won’t put the parents in the poorhouse is extremely important - abortions are cheaper than raising a child, which is much more scandalous than abortions themselves.

Oh my goodness. Living poor is "much more scandalous" than killing the baby off. Didn’t know that. We should head on down to the local liberal plantation and start picking off kids right now. Kill them all. It is "much more scandalous" to let them live. Let’s bomb the third world to hell while we’re at it. They’re poor. They’d be better off dead.

Your morals are downright evil Ryan.

But, honestly, Chief or Rob, will pregnant women be placed under house arrest to prevent them from leaving the state if they’re thought to be pro-choice?

No. Do they prevent you from going to Amsterdam to smoke weed?

I’m in favor of economic development in order to get people better paying jobs so they can afford to have children.

Who determines whether or not someone has enough money to have a child? You?

Like it or not, one reason people have abortions is because of their economic situation.

That’s a popular excuse.

I take it, from this graph, that you’re opposed to government interference in private lives?  And, if so, are you opposed to President Bush’s healthy families proposals?  What are your thoughts on the Defense of Marriage Act or the gay marriage amendment (since it isn’t the government’s responsibility to tell people how to act...)?

Stick to the subject.

Bottom line is that you miss my point.  The government does have an interest in protecting women and children.

We get your disgusting point. You ironically say that "the government does have an interest in protecting women and children". That is way off on the old irony meter there. You support killing babies.

Promoting abstinence and other forms of birth control, promoting improved economic conditions so it’s easier to care for and raise a child, and promoting alternatives to abortion (like adoption) are much, much better than merely banning abortion outright.

That’s not the government’s job.

Banning abortion will not lower the number of abortions performed.  This bill is useless because it does not prevent abortion.

Huh? Banning abortions will most certainly lower the number of abortions. How could it not? Good grief that was a dumb comment Ryan.

When we can make it easier to have a child, adopt a child, or have safe sex, abortions will disappear, which is what everyone wants.

Killing for convenience aka abortions, will never disappear with advocates like you around. Not everybody wants to take responsibility for their actions and they have you as a sideline cheerleader. Why would abortions disappear?

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 07:54 am
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The real issue is one that we need to be addressing in the country.  Namely that states have the right to regulate INTRASTATE Commerce, not INTERSTATE Commerce which falls on Congress.  This gives states a unigue right to regulate medical proceedures, etc.

States also have the right to set their own tax rates.  And we recognize that different states will have different regulations.  For example, Mass taxes the holy hell out of people and we expect that they will NEVER ban abortions there.  So when SD bans them, folks can drive to Canada, fly to MA, head to Mexico, or grab a coat hanger if they are so inclined.  And this provides an additional incentive to live in states where the laws reflect your beliefs or to advocate for your beliefs in the Legislature of the state you reside.

The point is that One Size Fits All does not work for Abortion.  If you want Partial Birth abortion as an option, then by all means, move to MA.  If you want to live in a state where there are no abortion clinics, then let’s allow that too.  But clearly this is not an issue the Feds should regulate.  The drug war MAYBE involves INTERSTATE Commerce.  MAYBE.  But certainly this invented right to privacy should not trump the 10th Amendment and the right of a state to regulate the commerce that occurs within its own borders.

I am not a fan of the hard line "We should ban Abortion at the Federal Level" idea either--except through Constitutional Amendment which would never pass.  I believe the FEDS have NO BUSINESS WHATSOEVER telling the states what to do.  And South Dakota is going to challenge the law on precisely this point.  If you want a first amendment, you don’t get to pick and choose which parts of the Bill of Rights you like and don’t.  Surely this invented right to privacy should not trump:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 07:57 am
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Justin, hopefully a few other states will also file amicus briefs with them, including my state of SC.

Chief RZ on February 23, 2006 at 08:00 am
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"They don’t have the right to end the life of the unborn child."

Baloney.  Rights are not something that are granted, but are inherent and inalienable.  Just because you have an opinion about this does not mean that you can dictate to others that they must agree with you.

As I’ve said before, no law, agency, or person is going to interfere in my family’s health and reproductive decisions.  I think that most people would agree that they don’t want the government to interfere in their private lives.  So, Roe could be overturned and SD or any other state could outlaw abortion, but it means nothing when my family’s health is concerned. 

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 08:03 am
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A lot of this would go away if the Bush Admin stopped stalling and approved the sale of the morning-after pill OTC.

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 08:08 am

modern instances said, Baloney.  Rights are not something that are granted, but are inherent and inalienable.

Irony of the day - this guy is arguing in favor of abortion.

A lot of this would go away if the Bush Admin stopped stalling and approved the sale of the morning-after pill OTC.

Bush Derangement Syndrome never leaves those who have it.

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 08:10 am
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Baloney.  Rights are not something that are granted, but are inherent and inalienable.

Baloney right back at you.  Where is this right enshrined in our Constitution?  Because those are the only rights we recognize in America, and don’t give me any B.S. about privacy. 

As I’ve said before, no law, agency, or person is going to interfere in my family’s health and reproductive decisions.  I think that most people would agree that they don’t want the government to interfere in their private lives.  So, Roe could be overturned and SD or any other state could outlaw abortion, but it means nothing when my family’s health is concerned.

This isn’t about health issues, this is about ending the life of a human being before they even get a chance to start it.  I don’t care what you do with regard to your own health decisions.  You want to get a sex change?  Go for it.  Want to have your penis moved to your forehead?  Go for it.  But I draw the line at you deciding to end another human’s life, even your own child’s. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 08:11 am

A lot of this would go away if the Bush Admin stopped stalling and approved the sale of the morning-after pill OTC.

When did this become the President’s job to begin with? When did he get this power?

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 08:14 am
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MI:

 A lot of this would go away if the Bush Admin stopped stalling and approved the sale of the morning-after pill OTC.

Morning after pills are already illegal.  Wal-Mart is being forced to sell them in MA

 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 08:14 am
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The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 564 (1969); in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 8-9 (1968), Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 350 (1967), Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616 (1886), see Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, 478 (1928) (Brandeis, J., dissenting); in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights, Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. at 484-485; in the Ninth Amendment, id. at 486 (Goldberg, J., concurring); or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, see Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399 (1923). These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed "fundamental" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325 (1937), are included in this guarantee of personal privacy.

Let’s read the following:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Compare this to the following:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

How exactly is it that Roe v. Wade makes any sense at all to take the first set of amendments above and twist the words around and somehoe arrive at a conclusion that overrides the right of the States to pass laws to regulate a practice that occurs solely within their borders?  We effectively threw away the 10th Amendment in Roe and vastly expanded the role of the Federal Government and destroyed the power of states to run their own business.  This goes completely contrary to every intention of the framers and takes only a pea brained historian to realize that this is against the very nature of what the founders wanted.  But all it took was Five of Nine Justices to decide that abortion was a more compelling issue than the 10th Amendment.  And Bam, the Feds now dictate to the states what is legal and what is not.

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 08:16 am
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Banning rape and murder doesn’t lower the number of those acts...but I’m all in favor of keeping the bans on those things in place. 

Gonna have to disagree with you on this, Rob. If rape and murder were legal, I can guarantee the incidence rate would increase dramatically. By making them illegal with very serious consequences, less people are likely to commit either offense.

Abortion on the other hand is a bit more complicated. Making it illegal probably won’t decrease the incidence rate. People will just travel to states that allow them to be performed. Spain taught us that in the 60’s and 70’s when all abortion was illegal. Women just went to the UK to have it done.

This  definately looks like it could be a victory for the state-rights crowd, but doesn’t mean anything for the pro-choice movement. They’ll only change where abortions are preformed, not the number of aborted fetuses.

Andrew on February 23, 2006 at 08:17 am
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Why elect State Legislatures or vote for Senators or Congressmen at all, when Five people can effectively override the will of the people simply by playing word jumble with the Constitution and coming up with new provisions such as "The Right to Privacy" or the "Right to An Abortion" that were never ratified or amended into the Constitution.

The Process to Amend the Constitution is very straightforward and also incredibly difficult, you in Roe, Five people were able to enshrine in the Constitution something that we not there and effectively run a big fat line through the 10th Amendment without 3/4 of the States approving it...  Well, going throuhg the Amendment process.  If we wanted the 10th Amendment struck down, then turn it over to the people to Amend the Constitution.  Instead, they simply interpret this unwritten "Right to Privacy" as more important than what is actually written in the Constitution.

Good Luck SD. 

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 08:21 am
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Good points Andrew, but I still don’t see it as a valid argument against abortion itself.  That women would go elsewhere to get them (or harm themselves trying to do it at home) does not change the fact that abortion is murder, and that my state has the right to ban it upon the will of the people.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 08:22 am
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Where is this right enshrined in our Constitution?  Because those are the only rights we recognize in America, and don’t give me any B.S. about privacy. 

I’m not saying abortion in an inaleiable right or anything. But the Constitution only matters from a legal perspective. It doesn’t give us rights, but rather attempts to protect them. Just because something isn’t in it, doesn’t mean we don’t have that right. We just give up a lot of our rights in order to live in a protected society.

Andrew on February 23, 2006 at 08:24 am
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but I still don’t see it as a valid argument against abortion itself. 

Agreed. I was just saying that abortion rates will remain where there at, unless all countries and states ban it. But it’s unlikely to happen because people will just start flocking to whatever place allows them. This will cause great revenue production, so I doubt whatever place allows it would ever ban it. Money always wins.

Andrew on February 23, 2006 at 08:29 am
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"This isn’t about health issues, this is about ending the life of a human being before they even get a chance to start it."

It is about health.  If my wife’s health is endangered by a pregnancy or giving birth, she’s going to have an abortion.  If the health of my family is put at risk by adding another mouth to feed when I’m already straining to provide for those already there (in theory), my wife may have an abortion.  The point is, only my wife and I will make those decisions for ourselves. 

 

"But I draw the line at you deciding to end another human’s life, even your own child’s. "

Well, excuse me, Judge Reinhold.  Draw as many lines as you want, have a sexy line-drawing party.   But think twice before stepping over it. 

 

 

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 08:32 am
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What gives people the right to determine what happens to someone elses body?

I am sorry human fetuses are not sentient aka have no sign of thought (they dont even have a brain yet so thats not possiable) 

But I guess its ok to force women to have children in all cases even if it causes her death 

Not to  mention the fact that giving birth takes a lot out of a woman shortens there life span (yes it does take a massive amount of energy to create and give birth to life) if the woman does not want the child why should she have to shorten her life span from the 9 months of extreame stress that pregency puts on it?

Glenn on February 23, 2006 at 08:36 am

modern instances said, If my wife’s health is endangered by a pregnancy or giving birth, she’s going to have an abortion.

That’s fine.

If the health of my family is put at risk by adding another mouth to feed when I’m already straining to provide for those already there (in theory), my wife may have an abortion.  The point is, only my wife and I will make those decisions for ourselves.

Nope! Sorry. If you kill someone, it is our business.

Well, excuse me, Judge Reinhold.  Draw as many lines as you want, have a sexy line-drawing party.  But think twice before stepping over it.

Is that a threat? You’ve already shown your penchant for killing babies…

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 08:38 am
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Sex with children is outlawed in the US, but people still go to Mexico or the Phillipines to practice pedophillia and take "sex tours".  Is that an argument that we should legalize it here?

Sure, other places will legalize abortion.  Gambling is illegal (except on the Reservations) in Arizona and people drive to Nevada or the Indian Casinos to bet.  Does that mean we need to legalize gambling and deal with the crime and problems that accompany it?

Prostitution is legal in some counties in Nevada...  you get the drift.  I have no doubt that people will still have abortions.  That is not an argument for legalizing it.  Certainly the use of contraceptives will increase if Abortions become harder to get.  People will think twice.  Adoptions will increase.

you act as though there were the same number of abortions pre-Roe as there were right after.  As if Roe had no impact.  This is clearly not the case at all.  Banning abortion may not completely stop it and people may go other places, etc., but it will have a dramatic effect.  And even if it doesn’t, it is still the right of the Legislature of SD and the people of SD to enact laws as they see fit.

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 08:39 am

Rob wrote: 

Neither you nor any mother in the whole world has the right to decide that a child’s life isn’t worth living. 

I tried that logic on my prom date, but she still wouldn’t let me have sex with her. She just decided her unborn child’s life just wasn’t worth living, and wouldn’t have sex with me. Can you imagine? The selfishness we encounter!

Now, some might say, that if she’d had sex with me, her baby would have a rough life-- no father (hell no!) and a mother with only a high school degree. But to those naysayers, let me quote Rob Port, who famously said:

But "poor" is still better than "dead." 

Hear ye! Now if only Sally Johnson had read that, I’d’ve gotten some action that night! And, far more importantly, another child would have been blessed with the gift of life instead of the horror of non-existence.

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 08:41 am
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It is about health.  If my wife’s health is endangered by a pregnancy or giving birth, she’s going to have an abortion.

I have no problem with that.

 If the health of my family is put at risk by adding another mouth to feed when I’m already straining to provide for those already there (in theory), my wife may have an abortion.  The point is, only my wife and I will make those decisions for ourselves.

No, you don’t have the right to kill your unborn child because you are irresponsible and make poor life choices.  Put the kid up for adoption.  No one needs to die.

 Well, excuse me, Judge Reinhold.  Draw as many lines as you want, have a sexy line-drawing party.   But think twice before stepping over it.

So what, are you threatening me now?

Cripes, get a grip. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 08:41 am
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Glenn: I agree with you. A pregnant woman should have no right to take the life of the person she is hosting, at least not without due process of law.  Why do unborn children have fewer rights than the terrorists you lefties care about so much?

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 08:42 am
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Davey:

Hear ye! Now if only Sally Johnson had read that, I’d’ve gotten some action that night! And, far more importantly, another child would have been blessed with the gift of life instead of the horror of non-existence.

Doesn’t make any sense.  We’re not talking about whether or not to bring a child into existence, we’re talking about unborn children that have already been created. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 08:46 am

Glenn said, What gives people the right to determine what happens to someone elses body?

Exactly! Especially when the subject is death.

I am sorry human fetuses are not sentient aka have no sign of thought (they dont even have a brain yet so thats not possiable)

Wrong. Fetuses are sentient creatures that have thoughts and can feel pleasure and pain.

But I guess its ok to force women to have children in all cases even if it causes her death

From the article, "The bill as written does make an exception if the fetus dies during a doctor’s attempt to save the mother’s life."

Not to mention the fact that giving birth takes a lot out of a woman shortens there life span (yes it does take a massive amount of energy to create and give birth to life) if the woman does not want the child why should she have to shorten her life span from the 9 months of extreame stress that pregency puts on it?

Any proof of that claim? Even if true - don’t get pregnant if you don’t want a pregnancy. Simple, isn’t it?

Dave said, I tried that logic on my prom date, but she still wouldn’t let me have sex with her. She just decided her unborn child’s life just wasn’t worth living, and wouldn’t have sex with me. Can you imagine? The selfishness we encounter!

It was probably your mullet. (Sorry, but your ridiculousness called for it.)

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 08:47 am

We’re not talking about whether or not to bring a child into existence, we’re talking about unborn children that have already been created. 

What’s the difference between an unborn child before conception and an unborn child after conception?

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 08:53 am

What’s the difference between an unborn child before conception and an unborn child after conception?

Welcome to another edition of "What is the difference between black and white?" hosted by our esteemed questioneer Dave from Say Anything!

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 08:54 am

IOW: None. Thanks.

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 08:55 am
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Why are people who threaten to invade the privacy of my family so surprised when I promise to protect it? 

 

"A pregnant woman should have no right to take the life of the person she is hosting, at least not without due process of law.  "

We may have discussed this before, but what would this process look like?  It would need to be expedient, obviously.  Who represents the unborn child?  The "host"?  Some disinterested third party?  Who makes the ultimate decision?  Is there an appeals process? 

 

 

 

 

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 08:56 am
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What’s the difference between an unborn child before conception and an unborn child after conception?

It is a physical entity after conception.  It actually, you know, exists.

Why are people who threaten to invade the privacy of my family so surprised when I promise to protect it?

I wonder why you’re surprised that others would want to protect your unborn children when you are intent on killing them.

So, you’re willing to resort to violence in order to protect your perceived "right" to kill your unborn children.

Wow.  Inspiring.

/sarcasm 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 09:04 am

modern instances wrote, Why are people who threaten to invade the privacy of my family so surprised when I promise to protect it?

Why are some people who threaten the lives of babies so surprised when we come to defend those lives?

What is next modern instances? You going to join ranks with Dave and claim that infanticide is also "the privacy of your family"?

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 09:06 am

 It actually, you know, exists.

The mere fact that something exists is sufficient for it to be protected by the law? Why not extend that to animals?

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 09:08 am

The mere fact that something exists is sufficient for it to be protected by the law? Why not extend that to animals?

We do.

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 09:09 am
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The mere fact that something exists is sufficient for it to be protected by the law? Why not extend that to animals?

The mere fact that a human exists in America is sufficient for it to be protected by law.  And there is precedent for this, as many states have laws that charge criminals with two crimes if they kill a pregnant mother.

And we’re talking about humans here, not animals.  I don’t often call for us to stay on topic, but animals have nothing to do with abortion.  Lets not muddy the waters. 


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 09:09 am

 I don’t often call for us to stay on topic, but animals have nothing to do with abortion. 

Animals have everything to do with abortion. If you’re going to say that the government has an interest in protecting the "rights" of beings who have not been born, who have no consciousness, who have no rationality, who have no concept of morality, etc., then it’s astoundingly hypocritical to extend it to week-old fetuses but not dolphins or chimpanzees.

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 09:13 am
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Animals have everything to do with abortion. If you’re going to say that the government has an interest in protecting the "rights" of beings who have not been born, who have no consciousness, who have no rationality, who have no concept of morality, etc., then it’s astoundingly hypocritical to extend it to week-old fetuses but not dolphins or chimpanzees.

No, its not.  Unborn humans are human.  Animals are just dumb, tasty animals.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

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Rob on February 23, 2006 at 09:15 am

Dave tells us, Animals have everything to do with abortion. If you’re going to say that the government has an interest in protecting the "rights" of beings who have not been born, who have no consciousness, who have no rationality, who have no concept of morality, etc., then it’s astoundingly hypocritical to extend it to week-old fetuses but not dolphins or chimpanzees.

First off - fetuses have a consciousness. Secondly - your concept of morality is upside down. This is not, however, a good enough reason to kill you. Third - humans are different Dave. We are human. We protect our own. Nothing hypocritical about the will to survive and the will to protect your own species survival. It is inherient in nature to protect one’s own.

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 09:17 am
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"I wonder why you’re surprised that others would want to protect your unborn children when you are intent on killing them."

I’m only surprised when people who claim to be conservative want to dictate to others what they can or cannot do.  Worse, they want the government to dictate morality.

But the answer to your question is very simple: because my family is none of your business.  Any decision that my wife and I need to make, especially one so difficult as to whether or not to have an abortion, is ours alone.  We are perfectly capable of making that decision on our own.  You can believe that an embryo is a person til the cows come home, but you will not interfere in the sanctity of my marriage, family, and home.

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 09:19 am

Animals are just dumb

Are you claiming that week-old fetuses are smarter than chimpanzees? Are you claiming that we should use intelligence as a guide when determining when to protect beings under the law? What exactly did you mean there, Rob?

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 09:19 am

modern instances tells us, I’m only surprised when people who claim to be conservative want to dictate to others what they can or cannot do.

No killing! Opps! I "dictated" something to you.

Worse, they want the government to dictate morality.

Killing is wrong! Oh my,..I did it again.

But the answer to your question is very simple: because my family is none of your business.

If you kill them it is.

Any decision that my wife and I need to make, especially one so difficult as to whether or not to have an abortion, is ours alone.

Nope. Not for long buddy. We’re going to start dictating that you can’t do that and telling you that it is wrong.

We are perfectly capable of making that decision on our own.

The fact that you endorse it tells me that you’re not.

You can believe that an embryo is a person til the cows come home, but you will not interfere in the sanctity of my marriage, family, and home.

Riiiight. Whatever.

Dave said, ...nothing.

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 09:25 am
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Rob is right this is more about states rights than it is abortion. It is going to be interesting to see how all of this plays out the states have not been having a lot of success against the Feds in a while. Gotta ask though rob do you feel the same way about states rights when it comes to medical marijuana or controlling their ports? The reason I ask is the politicians here in New Jersey are using states rights on the port issue and well we all know the recent imminent domain ruling.

richard on February 23, 2006 at 09:29 am
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 I think the better question is, will they build more Emergency Rooms to treat the women who turn to the wire hangers.

 

 Yes, but now we have hangers with rubber edges on them. Technology does improve our lives. (i heard david cross say something like that once)

  

GraemeA on February 23, 2006 at 09:30 am
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Tell you what, lik, you can come along when my wife and I go to the clinic and we’ll duel over it.  Too bad I didn’t know you were in Detroit for the Super Bowl, we could have taken care of it then.

 

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 09:33 am
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MI: Since, as a leftie, you favor full civil and constitutional rights for terrorists, why not unborn children?  Due process of law means that probable cause must be established for taking the life of the unborn child.  It must have legal representation, provided by the state if necessary.  All the legal niceties you want extended to terrorists should be extended to the unborn child.  Finally, even if found guilty of wanting to remain alive or of causing emotional distress to the mother,  and even if sentenced to death after the legal proceedings, the lengthy appeals process must take place, just like we do for rapists and murderers sentenced to death.  Finally, after 20 years or so, the sentence can be carried out.  Wouldn’t that be the way to go?

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 09:35 am
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Sounds like something David would say.  "Shut Up You Fucking Baby" is hilarious.  "Answer your telephone!"

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 09:35 am
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Sorry, robert, I thought you were actually serious.  Nevermind.

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 09:36 am
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MI: I am as serious as an abortion.  Can you refute my argument? If a human fetus isn’t "alive", then why do you need to kill it?  If it’s not alive or human, why do you need to bother with it?  Is it a wart or a tumor with full human DNA, which will ultimately be able to reproduce itself with an opposite-sex partner?  If you do it in the privacy of your home, is it OK to kill your spouse? 

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 09:41 am
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Richard,

States rights with the ports is not applicable becuase this involves several things--first, internation commerce, let alone state commerce.  As far as imminent domain, the states should not have the right to deprive someone of property.  This is a fundamental right enshrined throughout the work of the founding fathers.  Medicinal Marijauna--look no further than Rhenquist, Scalia and Thomas’s opinion in dissent of the recent ruling.  Medical Marijuana and Roe are closely intertwined.  It is the right of the state to regulate medical proceedures.  And Arizona, California and several others have passed laws legalizing medical MJ. 

Amazing but the former head legal counsel for the ACLU (Ruth Bader Ginsburg) was against legal medical MJ.  That is because if we allow states to regulate it, we allow states to regulate other "medical proceedures" and the liberal left is all about expansive FEDERAL GOVERNMENT with no states rights because they recognize that Red States outnumber Blue almost 2 to 1.  These states will simply ban abortion and there is nothing the Blue states can do to stop it unless they use the Federal Government to override the will of the people that elect the officials that pass these laws.

Justin B on February 23, 2006 at 09:49 am
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Dave,  A two week old human developing is called an embryo for about the first three months (first trimester), and generally can not exist outside a uterus.  Before that, the 23 cells are called a Zygote.  You got by with your assertion earlier.  With that thinking, every female would be guilty of murder every 28 days or so, and males every day or so.  That has never been asserted and is a foolish aside on its face.

Chief RZ on February 23, 2006 at 10:12 am
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Interesting fact Homo-Sapiens are animals

so saying animals are dumb you have to include humans in that due to the fact we are indeed a member of the kingdom animalia

just a little tidbit

I see no point in arguing this, if my wife wants an abortion because she cant handle the birthing process for whatever reason as hard as it would be I would accept her choice its her body not mine and I would kill anyone that tried to force her to live life by there morals and not her own

and before you go ooooo my morals include no killing…

you dont seem upset about all the people that are being killed by our soldiers in the so called fight on terroism oh wait I forgot there not in the usa and believe in my god or my morals! they have no rights! KILL THEM!

For all you "Pro-Lifers" you seem to have bombed a good amount of clinics that do abortions causing the deaths of doctors,nurses and women that were about to get an abortion all that killing… Pro life my ass

 

Prenatal your ok! Post Natal/PreSchool your fucked!

Glenn on February 23, 2006 at 10:40 am
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If you were serious, you wouldn’t have couched your reply in such a ludicrous context.  I’d refute your argument if I could figure out what it is.  It appears to be that the process I asked for is just the same as our current legal system.  That is unreasonable due to the time-sensitivity of the matter, and is not really an answer to the question.

 

 

modern instances on February 23, 2006 at 10:43 am

Glenn said, you dont seem upset about all the people that are being killed by our soldiers in the so called fight on terroism oh wait I forgot there not in the usa and believe in my god or my morals! they have no rights! KILL THEM!

Here’s the difference: conservatives believe that death is earned. Liberals kill for convenience.

likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 10:59 am

The next motion on the floor is that likwid’s vote doesn’t count, since he has a female in his avatar.

That’s democracy…

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 12:57 pm
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MI: As I stated, my argument was to extend the same rights to a human fetus as you lefties to to terrorists and criminals sentenced to death.  After all, the human fetuses have committed no crime or acts of terror.  Why not do that? 

docdave:  Tyranny of the majority!(irony) 

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 12:59 pm

After all, the human fetuses have committed no crime or acts of terror.

Neither have cows. Why don’t you take the rights you give to fetuses and extend them to cattle?

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 01:11 pm
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Dave: If you don’t know by now, don’t mess with it.  Humans are humans, and cows(and other animals and plants) are our food. You already know my position on this;  I might think you are trolling or something.

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 01:20 pm
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Dave: The funny answerd: When you find a cow that signed the Constitution.

robert108 on February 23, 2006 at 01:21 pm

When you find a cow that signed the Constitution.

Unborn children (or fetuses) haven’t signed the Constitution either.

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 01:25 pm

Unborn children (or fetuses) haven’t signed the Constitution either.

Animals who are in pain are shot or euthanized. Surgery is a luxury left for beautiful horses and loved dogs. What I am saying is - if you ever get hurt or are in pain Dave, make sure you let me know. I’ll get the girl in my gravatar to take care of you.

What I am saying is, since you believe animals = humans and humans = animals with no moral or ethical difference between the lives, I’ll be sure to treat you like I would a lowly animal. You are certainly showing about the same amount of logic.
likwidshoe on February 23, 2006 at 01:31 pm

What I am saying is, since you believe animals = humans and humans = animals 

Humans are animals. Did you fail biology 101? 

with no moral or ethical difference between the lives

I view species difference the same way as gender difference. Males are stronger than females, and humans are smarter than cows, but it hurts just as much when they suffer. In suffering, the animals are our equals. 

I’ll be sure to treat you like I would a lowly animal.

Or maybe you should treat animals the way you would a "noble" human. Eh?

Dave on February 23, 2006 at 01:40 pm
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MI:

I’m only surprised when people who claim to be conservative want to dictate to others what they can or cannot do.  Worse, they want the government to dictate morality.

Rape is immoral.  Murder is immoral.  I believe those morals should be legislated, and as I believe abortion is murder, I believe that moral should be legislated as well.

What I find funny is that you have routinely mocked and derided the abortion clinic protesters who have used violence and intimidation to further their cause, yet you do not flinch from threatening violence here to further your cause.  What makes you better than them?  Frankly, I don’t think violence is warranted here at all.  I’m surrently not going to resort to issuing invitations for duels over the internet.

richard:

Gotta ask though rob do you feel the same way about states rights when it comes to medical marijuana or controlling t