Say Anything Blog

Cancer of free enterprise?

Well, dick, a lot of people who are way smarter than you think you’re all wet:

“I consider it important, indeed urgently necessary, for intellectual workers to get together, both to protect their own economic status and, also generally speaking, to secure their influence in the political field.” Albert Einstein (commenting on why he joined the American Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO)

“Only a fool would try to deprive workingmen and workingwomen of the right to join the union of their choice.” Dwight D. Eisenhower

“We need unions to make sure that working people have a legitimate and consistent voice.” Senator Orrin Hatch, R. Utah, quoted in Business Week magazine, May 9, 1994

“If a man tells you he loves America, yet hates labor, he is a liar!” Abraham Lincoln

Since you hate labor, dick, tell us---Why Do You Hate America, You Traitor!?!

I totally agree.  I was fortunate to have taught in a Right To Work State, South Carolina for 29 years.  No one came to insult me while I taught my discipline(s), good morals, following rules and being a good citizen.  I was not hampered by “union rules”.  Take a look at The Truth:
We need to zero out the US Department of Education.

Unions are the cancer of free enterprise.

Don,
Why not refer to his proper name? :  Richard
I will make a comment:  It seems that some people revert to base language when they can not debate with facts.
I agree, Richard, here in SC, we have all those things without the benefit of “union help”.  Undemocratic?  Try looking up what happened to Joseph Yablonski, his wife, Margaret, and their daughter, Charlotte when he tried to be elected to the UMW.  This corruption is merely for starters.  I do not want any dues or fees to go to campaigns I do not support--> see the Beck decision by the US Supreme Court.
Once upon a time, in Lowell, Massachusetts, unions may have been a good thing, but now, people have free access to roads, transportation and are free to choose where they wish to work--or not.  I agree that people have the right of association as guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, and conversely, they have a right not to join a union.  I did not need anyone to speak for me, I was fully capable of doing so myself.  Unions are unnecessary in today’s world.  About 8% or so are still members.

BTW:

***Equal pay for equal work
***Safe work environments
***medical benefits for workers injured on the job through no fault of their own
***child labor laws
***Protection from sexual harrassment
***Protection from racial, religious, gender, and sexual discrimination
***40-hour work weeks
***overtime pay
***WEEKENDS!!!

We wouldn’t have any of these things in the USA if it weren’t for unions, dick.

Which one of thes things are you against, dude?

When workers can shut down my business and I can replace them with workers that are willing to do the work for the pay that I can afford to pay them that kills my chances of competing in free market.

A) This doesn’t make much sense. Did you mean “When owners can shut down...”?

B) The fact that business can---and very often do---replace American union members with below-minimum wage illegal immigrants is a very good argument in FAVOR of unions.

When the union workers make more than the people they represent then those union members just lost the ability to ply their trades in an open market and get the highest value for there services.

A) This doesn’t make a lick of sense. Union workers make more than union workers? Huh?

Did you mean “union leaders make more than...”?

B) While yes, it’s true that some unions have corruption problems, there’s no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

After all, some members of the executive and legislative branches are corrupt. Do you think we should smash the state and have total anarchy in the streets?

I have all of these things and have never been a part of a union.

My Father had all of those things and he was never in a union.

You and your dad have all these things because union members fought (and sometimes died) for them.

You’re welcome.

Seems that almost all of those things are gauranteed by the federal government.

Are you HIGH?!?

Seriously, dude, who put this idiotic idea in your head?

With the exception of the Air Traffic controllers that Reagan replaced name one time that a union has been replaced with below minmum wage illegal immigrants?

Right off the top of my head:
Construction and Meat processing.

Sorry you will not get me to agree that they fought for me they fought for themselves period.

I got the idea ewhen I noegotiated my last salary all by myself.

You almost certainly would have gotten a better deal if you’d been part of a strong collective bargaining system. But if you want your boss to screw you, who am I to tell you otherwise.

Of course, I’m sure you’d agree that workers who want to join a union should be free to do so without fear of retaliation. Unfortunately, in most industries, exactly to opposite is true.

You made me chuckle again some unions are corrupt the word corruption was never used I do not think that the fact that they make more money makes them corrupt.

Sorry I misunderstood you. Your poor writing skills makes it hard to figure out what the hell you’re trying to say.

It was supposed to say can’t.

With the exception of the Air Traffic controllers that Reagan replaced name one time that a union has been replaced with below minmum wage illegal immigrants? This does not argue for unions you dumb ass it argues for strict enforcement of our immigration and labor laws. These immigrants would not be able to work if it was to expensive to hire them in fact just theor being hired is a good example of “FREE ENTERPRISE”.

Sorry you will not get me to agree that they fought for me they fought for themselves period.

I got the idea ewhen I noegotiated my last salary all by myself.

No from what I saw it isn’t just the leaders of that particular union making more. You made me chuckle again some unions are corrupt the word corruption was never used I do not think that the fact that they make more money makes them corrupt.

Don, stop being so dramatic and condescending.  How about trying to make a point without insults and ad hominem.

Out of curiousity, what exactly do you do Don?  I realize that is a very personal and revealing question, but it really applies to this argument.  I am a business professional, non-union and feel the same way Richard does, in that the days of the union have come and gone.  Unions don’t work anymore, they are only in power to stay in power, and the payroll and donations of the NEA are just one example. 

The fact that business can—and very often do—replace American union members with below-minimum wage illegal immigrants is a very good argument in FAVOR of unions.

This is hardly an argument in favor of unions.  This is more an argument against illegal immigration, which if you are against this, glad to see you’re on board in that fight!

I agree with you in that we do owe a lot to the unions of the past for garnering some of the benefits we have today.  But those battles for the rights of workers just don’t exist today.  The battles are all petty and overblown and/or made up controversies. 

Taking the NEA example in Rob’s post, what are the benefits to the teachers and members of this union that derive from 65 million dollars in donations to liberal advocacy groups like the Rainbow/Push Coalition?  Can you address this point rather than attacking a commenter personally?

I have all of these things and have never been a part of a union.

My Father had all of those things and he was never in a union.

Seems that almost all of those things are gauranteed by the federal government.

I like the equal pay for equal work. So if I get this everybody in that treachers union gets the exact same pay? In some cases I am a more skilled worker should get paid more for the exact same job.

Wow I have never invoked your wrath before I am impressed that your giant IQ even noticed little old me.

Unions worked great once upon a time however, only a fool would think that they are still benefitting our country.

When our scrap metal can be hauled over seas turned into Bic razors and returned to our market cheaper than we can do it ourselves well I am sorry but that kills our chances of competing in a free market.

When workers can shut down my business and I can replace them with workers that are willing to do the work for the pay that I can afford to pay them that kills my chances of competing in free market.

When the union workers make more than the people they represent then those union members just lost the ability to ply their trades in an open market and get the highest value for there services.

Don,
I appreciate your feelings for our fellow man.  I am an Eagle Scout, help out in soup kitchens and assist with our outreach through our Church.  The points I made were:  Unions are corrupt and “in bed” with the Mafia.  I believe that firstly, individuals should take primary responsibility for their welfare.  Society can assist, repeat, assist on a temporary basis, but not forever and certainly not to the detrement of everyone else.  I, too, care that everyone learns to read.  That is the bedrock of our democracy (or replublic) depending on how you see it.
I worked for 29 years teaching and trying to impart knowledge--reading being part of that.  My suggestion(s) to those concerned is to do the same. 
A “company” is an individual, partnership, corporation or group of citizens that get together to offer a service or make a product.  People can work there or not.  They should not demand things from that company.  If they don’t like it there, they can go to work elsewhere, or even better, form their own company and offer those services you mentioned.  Then they will find out the reality of the bottom line!

Don first it is my typing skills not writing a quick glance at a dictionary should clear up the difference for you.

Also as you can see if I am not making money at it I do not care.

Second the only thing I would have accomplished by having a union negotiate for me is to get the same wage the rest of the collective is getting from the man.

Thanks to Chief and JR for the rational logical representation.

Don, stop being so dramatic and condescending.

I’m a dramatic guy, JR. Sue me.

How about trying to make a point without insults and ad hominem.

Only a halfwitted dumbas anti-American Commie faggot bastard would say that.*

I agree with you in that we do owe a lot to the unions of the past for garnering some of the benefits we have today. But those battles for the rights of workers just don’t exist today. The battles are all petty and overblown and/or made up controversies.

That’s just what The Man wants you to think, dude. The truth is that workers are getting less pay for more work, facing dangerous work environments without safety precautions, and losing benefits at an alarming rate.

If it doesn’t affect you personally, well, bully for you. I’m one of those people who think a harm to one is a harm to all.

Or, to quote another really smart guy:

We have more work to do. More to do for the workers I met in Galesburg, Illinois, who are losing their union jobs at the Maytag plant that’s moving to Mexico, and now are having to compete with their own children for jobs that pay seven bucks an hour. More to do for the father I met who was losing his job and choking back tears, wondering how he would pay $4,500 a month for the drugs his son needs without the health benefits he counted on....

For alongside our famous individualism, there’s another ingredient in the American saga. A belief that we are connected as one people. If there’s a child on the south side of Chicago who can’t read, that matters to me, even if it’s not my child. If there’s a senior citizen somewhere who can’t pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it’s not my grandmother. If there’s an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It’s that fundamental belief—I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sisters’ keeper—that makes this country work.

*I’m kidding, dude. It’s a joke. Don’t get your panties in a bunch.

Yeah Don, I get your joke, you’re just not funny though.  And you’re too quick to go after someone personally when you don’t agree with them.  It’s evident in almost all your posts. 

I particularly like this statement:

That’s just what The Man wants you to think, dude. The truth is that workers are getting less pay for more work, facing dangerous work environments without safety precautions, and losing benefits at an alarming rate.

“The Man”??  Come on, are you kidding me?  You say that and immediately lose all credibility.  Nice opening.  And for the rest, what union website did you get that propaganda?  I hope you’re not trying to pass that off as fact?

I’m one of those people who think a harm to one is a harm to all.

Just to be different, ladies and gentlemen, let’s work from the bottom up:

Second the only thing I would have accomplished by having a union negotiate for me is to get the same wage the rest of the collective is getting from the man.

Exactly! Without collective bargaining you get signficantly less than that.

Also as you can see if I am not making money at it I do not care.

What a crappy way to live, dude. No wonder you’re so grouchy.

Again, what is it that you do?

I’m a gay porn star, shaking my 10-inch dick for the boys and girls in West Hollywood. My porn name is “Nunya Biznez.”

And for the rest, what union website did you get that propaganda? I hope you’re not trying to pass that off as fact?

I’m not passing it off as fact, dude. It is fact. Pretty well established fact, too. Do a google search for “outsourcing” or “working conditions” or “worker’s rights” and you’ll see what I mean.

And if you’d taken the time to click the sources I cited before, you’d know that the “union website I get my propoganda from” is the US Dept. of Labor’s Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Yeah Don, I get your joke, you’re just not funny though. And you’re too quick to go after someone personally when you don’t agree with them.

I don’t “go after someone” because they disagree with me. I only “go after someone” when they say or do something stupid. I don’t suffer fools gladly and don’t plan to start.

And for the record, there are lots of people way, way smarter than me who disagree with me. Just not on this blog.

A “company” is an individual, partnership, corporation or group of citizens that get together to offer a service or make a product. People can work there or not. They should not demand things from that company. If they don’t like it there, they can go to work elsewhere, or even better, form their own company and offer those services you mentioned. Then they will find out the reality of the bottom line!

In the broadest, 6th-grade Econ textbook sense, you’re correct. In actual practice there are a lot of other factors at work.

You’ve probably seen the news about the horrible mining accident in West Virginia. People in that area have two choices---to work for low pay in a dangerous mine, or starve. That’s it. Access to education, other opportunities, bank loans, etc, simply aren’t there dude.

A strong union could offer the miners a living wage, better health care and workplace safety, and chances for real advancement.

Unless you’re one of those heartless bastards who thinks “If they don’t like it there, they can go to work elsewhere.”

Anyone who works for a profitable company should expect, at the very least, two things---a living wage and a safe work environment. The miners in West Virginia have neither. Wo who is at fault---the miners (for not leaving) or the company (for paying starvation wages and neglecting basic safety concerns in order to squeeze out an extra droplet of profit)?

The points I made were: Unions are corrupt and “in bed” with the Mafia

ALL unions? Every single one?

or are you just talking out your ass?

Wouldn’t it be nice if more (not all) union types were nice.
I was focusing on before the fact of an accident or occurance, not after.  I was wondering how long it would take for someone to bring up the recent tragety in WVA.  Charlotte Yablonski was trying to do something about those conditions.  She was executed by Union hired goons.  They even killed their pet animals!  Now those are animals.
There is no “The Man”.  Each person is his or her own man (or woman).  There are opportunities for education, advancement and a whole world out there for people who will think for themselves and get out of the victim status mode.
Unions--not all are and have been connected and convicted for illegal activities with organized crime.  Yes, I also talked with a real person [The Truth] in a Waffle House.  He was a trucker with the AFL-CIO for 30+ years, and because the union tried to do everything for all people (and contribute heavily politically), he now has no pension after 30 years of hard work.  So much for the benevolent unions.  He immigrated legally into the USA after coming through Canada where he shoveled manure on a farm for two years, learning English as he went along.  He was a hard worker, and still is.  Unions--most of them, are corrupt and exist now merely to self-perpetuate themselves.  They use “poster people” of the moment to show off how they are helping, and some may be legitimate, but for the most part, they—some—not all --detract from the efficiency, output and morals of the United States of America.  There may be some good unions, but the NEA and their affiliates are not one of them.  I have seen and heard the results of their “helping” first hand for 29 years.  They have contributed to the destruction of the public education systems in the USA.  I have seen what other countries have done with 1/3 the money, less $ benefits.  The students are happy, educated, and will be productive members of society whatever they chose to do with their lives.  The teachers are respected in school and in the communities. 
We seem to agree on the definition of a Company, but this is true in the real world, not in ....  the first time Economics is taught in the US school system is as an elective in the 10th grade.  I taught 5-9, and was on the textbook adoption committee.  My definition and idea remains true.  People can form a company, even an “S” corporation any time they want to.  If I had to guess, I would guess that you might be a union employee.  Do you care to answer a previous question?

I would like to hear from someone, how teachers of a school district would go to the management and negotiate pay and benefits each one for him/herself without the benefit of union representation. And to top it of arguments that labor unions undercut competiveness of american corporations is “propaganda”. To prove my point I went to the nearest store and attempted to buy something made in the good USA.
Result: Nothing. Even the undewear is made elsewere.Can anyone say that when IBM sold their computer buisiness to the chinese they did so because because the unions made it too expensive for them to compete worldwide?

NEA—useless insulters

Ellinas--
I personally negotiated with the school district I worked for.  I decided to sign a one year contract with a school district after interviewing with three others.  I took the best offer and decided for myself where I would work, how much, and what benefits I wanted.  It is called the “cafeteria plan”, a Federal tax program that allows people who work to set aside money before taxes.
Second, I do not buy items made in China.  Period.  They are a communist country that kills and persecutes Christians.  I had a friend who came from China who told me about “the square” and other things that happened there and are happening there now.  I just recently purchased a pair of running shoes Made in the United States of America.  If more people would look at the labels and not buy Made in China (Taiwan is still a free country), then maybe we would all be better off.

Funny Chief (and I do not mean this negatively at all) but do ya think the Chinese view may be that they are being persecuted by the Christians. Sorry the thought just hit me and I couldn’t resist.

I am sure that you are correct.

One point though, it always seems to me that whoever is in power wants all of the control and the group that is not in power always screams about the others control, this is true with every society (in my opinion).

richard-
I can’t imagine that to be true.  There may be 5-maybe 10% Christians there.  The Chinese even persecure people who sit in certain ways!  Communists want to totally (totalitarian) control people, their actions and even thoughts.  The first thing the Soviets did was to outlaw all churches.  It is amazing how the left is silent on these issues when it comes to communism or socialism.

The IBM/China angle was just an example. My point is that everything is made abroad (well, almost everything) except for Chief RZ’s running shoes. And I am glad that for some individuals “non union” works.

And what exactly does your (Chief RZ) above post has to do with labor unions?

A couple of good stories from Say Anything: You know what would really help a bunch of alcoholic homeless people? Oh yeah, booze! And for you teachers out there, those dues you are paying to the NEA are going to administration officials who make $97,000.00 a year on average. Yikes.  And finally, a cat hangs on the to bottom of a car for 70 miles! He still deserves to die.

Chief:

You’ve entire knowledge of union history and labor relations anre based on

1) A bad Charles Bronson movie*, and

2) A guy at the Waffle House.**

* is there any other kind?
** mmmmmm....waffles....[drool]

Thought provoking!
In a democracy, the group in power isthe people.  Within that idea, some people in power are elected or appointed to exercise that power--the executive branch.  Others, the legislative, should represent those who elected them.  The third branch, the judiciary should only interpret small differences. Power does corrupt as we have been reminded recently, and then those citizens can elect a different representative, or even recall them.  I am glad I live in a democracy and in particular the USA, not under communism or a dictatorship.

chief:

In a democracy, the group in power is the people.

How sweet. How nice.

How wrong.

Of course, I wish it was true. I really do. And it probably used to be true in the 18th and 19th centuries. But not any more, dude.

The group in power is the people with the money. Or to be more precise, the people with the capital.

Don- at 2:53,
No, not quite.  Those were merely matching anicdotes that were a contrast to yours.
My knowledge and history dates back to reading about union history in books (many and differing ones), watching and reading about Robert Kennedy’s crusade if you will, and being fairly close to those in the New York City area, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey, Michigan and parts of other areas.  I have some friends who are strong union supporters in the FAA and other areas.  We have spirited discussions from time to time.  He makes some good points as you have, but does accept counterpoints without minimizing the facts presented.
By the way, I have never seen the movie you pointed to.  I do not get information from fictional movies, nor fiction books.  Again, the real person I talked with is an example of The Truth and it should have put a human side to this discussion.  I am about to leave now, but will check back tomorrow.  I thought a previous poster had a legitimate question:  What is your profession (where are you coming from)--your perspective.

ellinas-- To Richard’s post at 10:53

Don- at 2:44:
Some may think that.  Some are not lured by filthy lucre.
Some people have a higher moral orientation.  The Truth:
In South Carolina, around the 1970-80’s, a certain candidate came here and spent around $7,000,000 and thought he could buy the nomination for President.  He was sadly mistaken.  The people here were not influenced my money, or capital.  Remember, this is the state that voted for, and as far as I have researched, elected the only US Senator by a write-in!
Capital is necessary to exchange for goods and services, but barter works also.  Capital is earned or gathered usually by the sweat of one’s brow.  That is the kind that lasts and is morally sound.  If you have noticed, those who gather up their treasures on this earth by underhanded means, usually loose it just as quickly.  By the way, as I stated, almost all of my garmets are made in other places than China; for example:  Hungary, Germany, Romania, Taiwan, Lithuania (a nice sport coat), Mexico, Canada, Japan, just to name a few.  Again, if more people would do something about not buying Chinese goods than just talking about it and lamenting about it, we would all be better off.

SayAnythingBlog.com has a doosey.  Jan 04, 2006 at 07:25 AM in Education, Morals & Ethics, Politics - American, Schooling | Permalink | Comments (0)