Say Anything Blog

I love this idea of a wall and think it is long overdue. 

Vicente Fox has to realize that he doesn’t have a leg to stand on in this fight.  No other country has any right to tell us what we can do on our own soil.  Fox can cry, complain, and fight this all he wants, but it will get him nowhere.  To think that he feels that his citizens should be allowed to break the laws of another country and that the U.S. is acting unjustly when we try and stop it.  It’s laughable.

You want to come to the U.S., do it the legal and proper way.

And before some of the more liberal commenters try and change the subject to something about these illegal criminal aliens doing the work that Americans won’t do, or complaining about those who hire these illegals, I will say this.  Their is no job that Americans can and won’t do, and if you can’t find them, then have your workers go through the proper channels to work here.  And the U.S. should do a much better job investigating and prosecuting companies and people who hire illegals.

No need for the lecture on economics C.C.  I am fully aware of supply and demand, but that concept becomes skewed when you factor in an illegal labor force. 

And your comparison to the Berlin wall is absolutely ridiculous.  The Berlin Wall was built to keep people from willfully leaving East Germany.  A wall along the border with Mexico will be built to keep illegals out of our country.  You know, people who’s first act in our country is to break it’s law.  The immigrants from Mexico will still have the ability to come into the U.S.  They will just have to do so legally.

Gentlemen,

Just a reminder Reagan went to Germany and told them what do with their wall. So its ok if we impose our idealogy on other countries, but no one should come and tell us what to do. I am not in favor of the communisim however, this double standard does not work. We should pratice what we preach. I do agree the channels to come in and work need to be drastically improved. And to J.R, I recommend you take a look at and econ book. Its not that Americans do not want to do the job, its the demand and supply that allows companies to offer lower wages. If there was less supply, higher wages higher prices and so on and so forth.

CC, I’m not sure I can determine, with absolute certaintly, whether you are for the wall or against it, but there is no correlation between the wall in Germany, and a wall between Mexico and the US.  If congress had voted to erect a wall along the Mississippi River, dividing the US, then I might agree with you.

And to JR, you’re right that there is no job an American can or won’t do.  But, if you can’t find someone to do the job then increase the wage to a point that someone will do the job.  Once everyone is working in the US, and has health care , then we can start thinking about bringing in legal immigrants to fill those positions.

I know JR, healthcare is a completely different discussion. I just can’t miss the opportunity for a shameless plug for my blog. I’m addicted.

BTW, what tag, or html code do you use to get the white block when you highlight some other quote?

But, if you can’t find someone to do the job then increase the wage to a point that someone will do the job.

Once everyone is working in the US, and has health care , then we can start thinking about bringing in legal immigrants to fill those positions.

I have no problem with legal immigration as it is today.  Health care issues is something that warrants a completely different discussion.

[...] The issue of illegal immigration is an important one for our legitimately sovereign government. So when Mexico’s President threatens to interfere with our plans to build a wall, what he’s really threatening is to interfere in a sovereign country’s affairs. Will the same critics that claim alleged American imperialism around the world decry this gross violation of our national rights? [...]

Marc,
Use the “Blockquote” button (right above the comment box) to highlight quotes in white.

Illegal immigration costs us far more than it benefits us.  The benefits only accrue to certain businesses, while the costs are borne by all taxpayers.  Any increase in produce prices is more than offset by the increased costs of healthcare and education, which are direct costs, and the slowing down of mechanization in the target industries, which is an indirect cost.

J.R,

Excess supply of labor reduces the price paid by employers. As long as companies are forced by investors and managers to reduce cost they will favor lower labor cost. There is not enough American supply of labor to fill the demand of remedial jobs immigrants do! Furthermore, no matter what size of wall you built they will come. Cuban refugees still make it to Florida and Chinese immigrants still come via boats. To this date there has been no correlation that terrorist are coming through Mexico, but there has been a couple coming through Canada. I do not see the government building a wall in the north. I am against the wall, but in favor of better immigration laws. No wall will ever hold anyone back. They have never worked.

Excess supply of labor reduces the price paid by employers. As long as companies are forced by investors and managers to reduce cost they will favor lower labor cost.

Lower labor cost is all well and good, but hiring illegals because you want to save on labor costs can not figure into that equation.  It is against the law.

There is not enough American supply of labor to fill the demand of remedial jobs immigrants do!

Cuban refugees still make it to Florida and Chinese immigrants still come via boats.

Different argument.  Cubans are not considered illegal once they reach American soil, they are refugees seeking asylum from a communist regime.  I’m not sure about Chinese immigrants though, but I think they fall under the same classification.

To this date there has been no correlation that terrorist are coming through Mexico, but there has been a couple coming through Canada.  I do not see the government building a wall in the north.

And no one had ever used a plane as a missle and flown into a skyscraper before 9/11 either.

I am against the wall, but in favor of better immigration laws. No wall will ever hold anyone back. They have never worked.

It’s working pretty well along disputed borders in Israel. 

Yes, the wall isn’t going to stop every illegal immigrant from entering this country, but it will stem the tide of a majority of them.

Cubans automatically get asylum, green cards and a shot at citizenship. Chinese don’t.

J.R

First off, who are we to decide if Cubans have more moral right than do Mexicans or South Americans or from any other country? Again the laws make no sense. You cannot punish ones and not the others. They, Cubans and South Americans, are all coming for an opportunity to improve their life. Chinese do have the same treatment as Cubans do either. Second the terrorist that made 9/11 happen were all here legally, with US visas. So stop with your hypothetical, if there is no evidence to support your argument, stop using it. Again, we need better immigration laws, end of story. To this date there has been no evidence that the wall in Israel is deterring. There could be a correlation that after Arafat died there was no support for the terrorist. So that is a flawed argument as well. With regards to the jobs they take being a drag, again unless you know more than Alan Greenspan, Gary Becker and Milton Friedman the whole reason the U.S economy has remained so strong is because of this inflow of immigrants. They contribute to this economy, and with a purchasing power of 1 TRILLION dollars to this economy its hard to say they are a drag. These are facts!! Lastly, the right to slavery was allowed and it was lawful, does that make it right? Of course not! You could have beat, sold and ill-treat an American and the law would allow it. It was not right then and it is not right now. J.R. sometimes we need to modify the laws and update them to reality. This should be done with our current immigration laws. Instead of building walls, we should improve the laws. Maybe charge for immigration a hefty premium. I do not know exactly what is the right way, but I do know the current system does not work.

C.C

Before we start writing new immigration laws, how about we start enforcing the ones we already have on the books?  That would start with stopping the flow of, again, ILLEGAL immigration across our borders.  You keep writing immigrants, which I can only assume to mean both legal and illegal.  Legal immigrants coming to work here no doubt improve and contribute to our economy.  Illegal immigrants are criminals breaking the law, that is the only pertinent fact to this argument.

Nice straw man with the slavery law comparison.  Give me a break.  The people crossing the border are not being forced into labor and they also have a legal alternative.  Using slavery is simply an attempt on your part to interject emotion into an argument and it’s pointless.  If the wall helps stem the flow of criminals across the border, then it will have served its purpose.

CC: You can’t have it both ways. Either there is an “excess supply of labor” or there aren’t enough Americans to do the jobs, but not both.  Please pick one, figure out the cost, and do the math.  The flaw in the “excess supply” argument is that because of minimum wage laws, it doesn’t lower the price of labor, but raises it.  The flaw in the “not enough Americans” argument is that the price of labor would increase without all the illegals.  That would raise the price of some commodities, but would also raise the purchasing power of the affected workers, leading to increased prosperity.  Markets work best when the supply/demand relationship is a true one. The invasion of illegals has distorted our labor market, which is ultimately a negative effect for our economy.  You also need to factor in the cost to our taxpayers of this invasion in the form of taxpayer-paid social services.  It doesn’t add up, IMO, no matter how you try to play it.  If the wall didn’t work, they wouldn’t be all angry about it.  Ditto for shutting down the border.

Robert,

Lets get your economics straight. Excess supply of anything, with demand constant, lowers the price. This is simple econ. Many of the immigrants that do the jobs are legal, however they chose to do the jobs they do beacuse they have no other skills. So you have an excess supply of labor for remedial jobs. Since excess supply leads to lowers wages, companies love it. So an American will never take the job for such a low wage. If you raise the minimum wage, it sometimes hurts more and companies seek other alternatives such as cheap labor. Again, there is not enough Americans to move the supply of labor curve, bringing in the immigrants allows the price of labor to be cheaper. Same reason that Wal-Mart brings everything from China, labor cost are way lower and companies here like that, for obvious reasons. The relationship of supply and demand always holds true. Again the hispanic immigrants have a purchasing power of 1 Trillion in the U.S.. The reason hispanics are mad at the wall, is that if someone is willing to sacrifice and risk their life to improve a better state for their family why should we detter them. The U.S was founded on these principles. Again slavery was wrong, and it was a law. Just because its a law, there is not justification that it is correct. I am for better immigration laws, but no walls. I agree, the social cost will hurt, we need to find alternatives. Maybe charge higher prices of immigrating. I do not know the solution, but I am confident that walls are not the solution.

C.C said, Just a reminder Reagan went to Germany and told them what do with their wall. So its ok if we impose our idealogy on other countries, but no one should come and tell us what to do.

Telling Gorbachev to tear down a wall that was keeping people in is “imposing” idealogy? In what sense? Did we tear down the wall? No. So how is it “imposing” idealogy?

I am not in favor of the communisim however, this double standard does not work.

What “double standard”? What are you talking about?

There is not enough American supply of labor to fill the demand of remedial jobs immigrants do!

Really? What about people on welfare? There are plenty of them available to fill the demand.

Furthermore, no matter what size of wall you built they will come.

There will always be some, however, that is hardly a ringing endorsement of your position. A wall will reduce the flood of illegals to a trickle. It has already been proven in a couple of places along the California/Mexico border.

To this date there has been no correlation that terrorist are coming through Mexico, but there has been a couple coming through Canada.

Perhaps. We do get a lot of gang members though. Ever hear of MS-13? Why should we wait for the terrorists to come through our borders? Again, hardly a ringing endorsement of your position.

No wall will ever hold anyone back. They have never worked.

It holds most people back. It always works.

So stop with your hypothetical, if there is no evidence to support your argument, stop using it.

What hypotheticals? You should apply your statement to yourself.

To this date there has been no evidence that the wall in Israel is deterring.

You’re wrong again. Suicide bombings are drastically dropping in locales where there is a wall up.

There could be a correlation that after Arafat died there was no support for the terrorist. So that is a flawed argument as well.

Your argument is flawed. Agreed.

It will not be on their side of the border, they can’t block shit.

Once again, illegal immigration floods the market with cheap labor, which would drive down overall wages, and does, except for the minimum wage law.  If the price could drop to its market level, without govt interference, wages would drop considerably.  In my area, not all illegals are unskilled, and they are driving down the price of labor in skill positions for legal Americans.  It is not a benefit.  It costs American jobs, and costs the taxpayers trillions of dollars, both in direct costs and in harm to the structure of the economy.  American was not founded on illegal immigration.  Once again, if the wall isn’t going to work, why protest it?  It will work, which pressures Mexico to reform its economic and political situation.  They would rather dump their problems on us, and keep taking their graft.  Since the illegals come here voluntarily, slavery is irrelevant.  Also, most illegals send their money to Mexico, which is also a drain on the US.  Some laws are good, and the immigration laws are good laws.  They just need to be enforced.

C.C,

Stop using your idiotic slavery law reference.  Stop trying to play to people’s emotions and fears.  Do you really think that sort of tactic works on intellectual people?  Stop it.

Second, can you please stop conflating the legal and illegal immigrant.  They are two totally separate types of individuals.  Illegal immigrants are criminals.  The first thing they do in this country is break the law, no one is forcing them to do it (you see this is where your slavery argument doesn’t hold water).  And where are you getting this figure of the 1 trillion dollars of buying power?  Are they legal or illegal? 

The reason hispanics are mad at the wall, is that if someone is willing to sacrifice and risk their life to improve a better state for their family why should we detter them.

Why?  Do you really need to ask?  They don’t comply with the laws, regulations, and taxes that the rest of us do.

I agree the legal immigration laws need to be improved and streamlined and reviewed so that we are admitting people who provide benefit to our economy swiftly.  The illegal immigration laws need to be enforced better and this wall will help start us in that direction.

So C.C, care to address the problem of ILLEGAL specifically?

CC: It is also inaccurate to consider illegal labor as a part of our market.  They are not fully a part of our society, so considering them to be part of our market, fully subject to the terms and conditions of our market, is wrong.  They distort our market.

Telling Gorbachev to tear down a wall that was keeping people in is “imposing” idealogy? In what sense? Did we tear down the wall? No. So how is it “imposing” idealogy?

So what is wrong with Fox telling the U.S his point of view with the wall. Just like the Gipper did it back in Germany. And talking about Reagan he gave amnesity not walls. He obviously knew more economics than you do. The U.S needs labor and participants in the labor force.

The double standard is that you can not go telling others what they should do, “tear down this wall” and go home and built one. That is wrong. That is a double standard. PRATICE what you preach.

Again, a small econ class for you. Even if you took everyone off welfare and handed them off jobs there would still not be enough supply of labor. This is a know fact. Another is that immigrants are willing to move to where the jobs are, I am certain that a person on welfare in CA will not move to NY or CT that easily. Or would they? So be realistic beacuse even people on welfare have opportunity cost.

Yes it has dettered them from crossing to CA, but what a coincidence you forgot to mention that more are crosssing through Arizona. So state the facts. It detters them but they always have other ways. Either paying an american official or whatever it might be. Walls detter but they it will not hold them back.

Actually even the jewish people in Israel agree that it was Sharon and the death of Arafat that has almost completely stopped the terrorist. They stopped the flow of funds and surprise surprise no more terrorist. It ain’t the wall buddy. And again suicide bombings slowed down after Arafats death. While the wall has been there for a much longer time. So sorry can’t use that argument. Maybe its casuality?.

The terrorist excuse does not work as a valid argument for the wall. About MS-13, check the facts first. Again this gang was started since we were supporting the military to stop the sandanistas in south america, and gave quite a few a free passage to the U.S. So read the facts on this gang before you write arguments with no logic. Yes they continue to come through and yes they should be stopped. I support the ones that come to work not gangs.

If you need good econ papers, or books let me know.

Regards.

So what is wrong with Fox telling the U.S his point of view with the wall.

Nothing. You changed the argument mid-stream. My disagreement was with your “impose our idealogy” claim.

He obviously knew more economics than you do.

Who the hell are you talking to?

The double standard is that you can not go telling others what they should do, “tear down this wall” and go home and built one. That is wrong. That is a double standard. PRATICE what you preach.

The Berlin Wall was built to keep people IN. The proposed wall along the US/Mexico border is for the purpose of keeping people OUT. They don’t compare. There is no double standard. You can now drop your facetious and ignorant “PRACTICE what you preach” claim now.

Again, a small econ class for you. Even if you took everyone off welfare and handed them off jobs there would still not be enough supply of labor. This is a know fact.

Source?

Yes it has dettered them from crossing to CA, but what a coincidence you forgot to mention that more are crosssing through Arizona. So state the facts.

So they go to where there is no wall. Thanks for emboldening my point and bringing up that salient fact. Much obliged.

It detters them but they always have other ways.

Nothing is fool-proof in life so this is hardly a good point to be making. The only certainty in life is death.

Either paying an american official or whatever it might be. Walls detter but they it will not hold them back.

They do a hell of a job holding them back.

Actually even the jewish people in Israel agree that it was Sharon and the death of Arafat that has almost completely stopped the terrorist.

Ironically, it somehow largely stopped the suicide bombings precisely where the wall is already built. Where the wall is yet to be built there are still suicide bombs. Ironic, that.

They stopped the flow of funds and surprise surprise no more terrorist. It ain’t the wall buddy.

So you keep on claiming.

And again suicide bombings slowed down after Arafats death. While the wall has been there for a much longer time. So sorry can’t use that argument.

The wall is still in the process of going up. So sorry, you can’t claim otherwise.

The terrorist excuse does not work as a valid argument for the wall.

You just don’t like the “excuse” because it is a valid one.

About MS-13, check the facts first. Again this gang was started since we were supporting the military to stop the sandanistas in south america, and gave quite a few a free passage to the U.S. So read the facts on this gang before you write arguments with no logic.

What an ass you are. Would you like to give more excuses for these murdering and raping gangs? Perhaps you could answer how the gangs started - as in - where did they come from and how did they get here? Maybe you’ll find out that we deport many of these gang members over and over and over again. Somehow, they find it easy to slip back in via the US’ southern border. Wonder why? Perhaps you will find out that the gang started in the streets of Los Angeles as hordes of illegal El Salvadorians banded together to fight the black and hispanic gangs. Perhaps you’ll just blame that on America again, who knows. So read the facts on this gang before you write arguments with no logic. Right back at you ya insulting shithead.

CC: I think economists will be glad to know that full employment will produce a shortage of employees.  No one else knows this fact, and it should make millions for you.  In the supply/demand model, demand is the independent variable, supply and price are the dependent variables.  The supply of labor depends on the demand for it.  None of that changes the fact that illegal immigrant labor is a distorting force in our economy, and is fundamentally detrimental.  We have enough labor here in the US to supply all of our demand.

CC’s argument is a perfect example of what Steven Den Beste said; “perfection is the enemy of good”.  His argument is ‘since the wall won’t keep everyone out, then we shouldn’t build the wall’.  If it can’t be done perfectly, then don’t do it all.

[...] With an estimated 5 million under- or unemployed service workers (source: CIA World Factbook), it’s little wonder that the Mexican government is worried about the United States’ plans to build a wall along the border. Every year rougly 150,000-200,000 illegal Mexican immigrants (source: US-English.org sucessfully evade our unmanned and underprotected border. These illegal immigrants find work that, even at a lower wage than American workers, pays better than what is available in Mexico--it is easy to understand their personal motivation in coming. However much we may feel sympathy for the day to day economic hardship of our friends and neighbors in Mexico, our security as a nation should come first.National security has many different components, one important component is economic security. When an illegal takes a job in America, it increases the tax burden on Americans. Illegal immigrants don’t pay taxes (outside of the small amount of sales taxes on the day-to-day items they purchase), yet they use public services: medical care, education, in some cases even welfare. What’s more, in a lot of cases they send a good amount of what they earn back to their families still in Mexico (as well as elsewhere). Capital flight weakens the economy.More unfortunately, it’s not just Mexicans that make the journey. An open border means that enemies of the United States can easily make the journey also. For the advocates of an open border, a simple question: how many terrorists crossing our border is an acceptable number? While it is surely true that other routes exist for terrorists to enter, that’s no excuse not to close this route.The issue of illegal immigration is an important one for our legitimately sovereign government. So when Mexico’s President threatens to interfere with our plans to build a wall, what he’s really threatening is to interfere in a sovereign country’s affairs. Will the same critics that claim alleged American imperialism around the world decry this gross violation of our national rights?So Mr. Bush, build this wall! However, the policy cannot stop there. We must crack down on American companies that break the law and hire illegals, and we need to reform the immigration system to ease the process for legal applicants. This is not a xenophobic, anti-immigration stance--legal immigration is good for the nation--this is pro-law and pro-security stance. [...]

Arriba Mexico Cabrones!
Chinguen a su madre todos los que quieran poner pared.

hi everybody I am not a citizenship of the USA, in fact I’ve only here like Less than a Year, I am not latino but I am against the "wall’