Say Anything Blog

How do you know what democrats are thinking?

It seems the Dean/Pelosi/Reid wing of the Democratic Party cares more about putting a stick into the eye of the President than whether or not we actually win in Iraq.

And MI, if this qualifies as swallowing the propaganda, then so be it.

It is rather tasty.

Propaganda?

So...Howard Dean really didn’t say that we can’t win in Iraq?  Nancy Pelosi really isn’t calling for an immediate pull-out right after she voted against one?

Man, those tricky damn Republicans....

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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Boy, you’re swallowing the propoganda whole these days, huh?

modern instances said, Boy, you’re swallowing the propoganda whole these days, huh?

Hey - if the shoe fits. That commercial just told it like it is. You know what else? More and more of us are questioning a lot of the Democrats’ patriotism. And it’s about time.

And as always - if you don’t agree, then provide an argument. Your belittling remark told us nothing.

First of all, the vote against immediate withdrawal was a joke.  It was a purely partisan ploy to make the Democrats look stupid.  It was a brilliant move from a partisan perspective but it was essentially a bankrupt and childish act in and of itself.  Grown-ups wouldn’t have played the game.  Smart Democrats would have abstained from voting but unfortunately there aren’t many smart Democrats in the leadership body right now.

Second of all, you’re pretending that the issues we’re facing in Iraq aren’t complex issues that require complex solutions.  Republicans like to play the game in black and white for precisely the same reason you claim the Democrats are being wishy-washy on their Iraq stance—Republicans like to win too.  They use the black and white approach because they think Americans are stupid.  Unfortunately they are right but that doesn’t make Republicans right, it only makes them more effective at the political game (not necessarily providing good leadership however).

If you’re truly convinced that the Republicans are earnest in their desire to serve the American people to the best of their ability you ARE swallowing the propaganda.  This administration is as corrupt as they come and the primary motivation for this group is profit and power.

Politics is politics and we all suffer for that.  We ought to kick the whole lot out of office in my opinion.

Maybe you’re right, maybe Democrats don’t really care about Iraq (I don’t believe that as a Gulf War Vet myself.  But you’re welcome to believe it).  But the thing is, these Republican’s currently in office don’t really care about the American people.  They care about American corporations, American corporate profit, profiting their buddies, and maintaining a lock on power.  Which is the worse offense?

First of all, the vote against immediate withdrawal was a joke. It was a purely partisan ploy to make the Democrats look stupid. It was a brilliant move from a partisan perspective but it was essentially a bankrupt and childish act in and of itself. Grown-ups wouldn’t have played the game. Smart Democrats would have abstained from voting but unfortunately there aren’t many smart Democrats in the leadership body right now.

So it was a “joke”, “purely partisan ploy”, “bankrupt”, and “childish act” because? Why again?

Second of all, you’re pretending that the issues we’re facing in Iraq aren’t complex issues that require complex solutions.

How is he pretending that?

Republicans like to play the game in black and white for precisely the same reason you claim the Democrats are being wishy-washy on their Iraq stance — Republicans like to win too.

“Black and right” equals either we stay and win the war or pull out. You’re right about that part.

They use the black and white approach because they think Americans are stupid. Unfortunately they are right...

As opposed to the “nuanced” positions of the Democrats who vote to stay and finish the job one week and then say that we need to cut and run the next? Americans would be “smart” to agree with that?

If you’re truly convinced that the Republicans are earnest in their desire to serve the American people to the best of their ability you ARE swallowing the propaganda. This administration is as corrupt as they come and the primary motivation for this group is profit and power.

Yeah...those are nice claims, but where is the substance? So far we don’t know why you believe that the Murtha inspired vote was a “joke”, “purely partisan ploy”, “bankrupt”, and “childish act”. We don’t know why you believe that Rob is “pretending that the issues we’re facing in Iraq aren’t complex issues that require complex solutions”. And we don’t know why you believe that the American people are “stupid”. To sum up - so far we don’t know why you believe any of what you have laid out on the table as you’ve only given us a bunch of hot air and rhetoric.

Politics is politics and we all suffer for that.

Huh? Could you get any more vague?

Maybe you’re right, maybe Democrats don’t really care about Iraq (I don’t believe that as a Gulf War Vet myself. But you’re welcome to believe it).

Why don’t you believe it or why do you believe that the Democrats do care about Iraq?

But the thing is, these Republican’s currently in office don’t really care about the American people. They care about American corporations, American corporate profit, profiting their buddies, and maintaining a lock on power. Which is the worse offense?

Yet more unsubstantiated claims. What a joke.

Don’t hurt yourself with that handgun sweetheart, or, perhaps with that sweet little attitude you’re sporting.

I’m not interested in playing a game with you about who’s right and who’s wrong.  You have your opinions, I have mine.  I’ll indulge your questions but if your next post is as rife with attitude as your last one you can monologue with yourself.  And my attitude in this post was purely a response to yours.  If you detected attitude in my last post none was intended.

You said:  “So it was a “joke”, “purely partisan ploy”, “bankrupt”, and “childish act” because? Why again?”

It was a joke because the resolution was never meant as a legitimate question.  The Republicans knew in advance what the outcome would be.  If they didn’t know the result the resolution would never have made it to the floor.  Can you imagine if it did and the vote was in the affirmative?!!! It would have made George Bush and his administration look like idiots.  It would have been tantamount to a vote of no confidence.

Secondly, the resolution was very simply a partisan “fuck you.” It was a calculated attempt to force the question when there wasn’t really a question.  I mean come on, if you don’t get it your not following the game.  Bush’s numbers are faltering, the war is becoming increasingly unpopular, and one Democrat, who just happened to formerly be vociferously in favor of the war, changes his mind and says we should start a staged pullout over 6 months while calling for maintaining a rapid-deployment force in the region, and the Republicans go ape shit and decide that they better do something quick. 

What do they do?  They put together a hastily arranged resolution to force the question and keep others from calling for an immediate withdrawal as well.  They well knew that it wasn’t the Democratic leadership calling for an immediate withdrawal and they knew that it wasn’t even the view of a majority of Democrats.  So, if that’s the case, why hold the vote? 

That’s why it was a joke. 

Now, were the Republicans successful in accomplishing what they wanted?  Yes, and No.  They were, in my opinion, successful in making the Democrats look like idiots.  They were successful in getting everyone on the record.  They were successful in making it seem like there was a case when indeed there wasn’t.  They weren’t successful in turning public opinion on the war.  They weren’t successful in winning the big media coop they were after.  They weren’t successful in making Murtha look like an idiot.

The vote was a nasty, partisan, calculated “put or shut-up” to anyone who wasn’t standing firmly with Bush or the Republican majority.  It was cheap, it was un-necessary, and it was A JOKE.

You said:  “Second of all, you’re pretending that the issues we’re facing in Iraq aren’t complex issues that require complex solutions.”

Very simple.  The whole Republican line on Iraq is “support the President, support the troops.” As a former U.S. Marine and Gulf War Veteran I’m all for supporting the troops and I’m all for a victory in Iraq but I’ve gotta tell you.  These guys running the show have made things FUBAR.  You don’t continue to support a President who is a flaming idiot and who’s policy is not showing success.  I’ve got friends in Iraq right now and I’ll tell you—they also think this President is an idiot!  My best friends brother who was stationed at Camp Anaconda never got proper body armor.  It’s been over two fucking years and this administration can’t get their shit together.  That’s unacceptable.  I don’t support the troops by leaving them up shits creek but apparently that’s what supporting the troops means to Bush and those who support them.

So, the question isn’t as simple as “stay and win” or “withdrawal and lose.” We may never win if we stay and play the game as Bush and company are playing it.  The question is one of creating and executing a successful policy and strategy.  The current policy is NOT working.  That’s not my opinion, that’s the opinion many of the troops on the ground and, quite frankly, some pretty high ranking officers who are on the ground in Iraq.

The situation in Iraq isn’t simple.  There are only a handful of Democrats who are calling for a pull-out.  Most of the Democrats are calling for intelligent policy and a clear exit strategy (which Bush still hasn’t defined—and, by the way is one of the major pieces a good warrior puts into place BEFORE he attacks).  So, to pretend that the question is a simple “stay and win” or “retreat and defeat” is bogus.

There are far more nuanced arguments to be had about our policy in Iraq but the easy one to play on in the media is the one you, Rob, and the rest of the Republican blogosphere are playing.  It’s cheap.  Let’s talk about the real issues like what IS our exit strategy.  How can we insure that our troops are properly equipped.  What is really driving the enemy in Iraq.  Is it really an Insurgency?  I’m not so sure, but if you fight a war as if it’s an insurgency and it’s not your executing BAD POLICY.  I’m all for winning babe but let’s be smart about it so we DO win and aren’t locked into another Vietnam.

I’ve gone on long enough.  If you really want to know what I think and why I think it feel free to send me an email or call me up for tea but don’t jump on me on this blog like I have to provide a fucking briefing to you on my opinions.  I won’t ask you to provide one on yours.

My best friends brother who was stationed at Camp Anaconda never got proper body armor. It’s been over two fucking years and this administration can’t get their shit together.

Yup, President Bush and all of the rest of the civilians in government sure better hand out body armor.  Heaven forbid the military supply channels do their jobs.  This one time, in Iraq, I didn’t have a way to keep my water cool, and I blame the president.  This one time, in Iraq, the people in the headquarters troop who never left the base, they got new jackets when there wasn’t enough for the all of the line guys that went on missions everyday and sometimes lived on their vehicles for days at a time, and I blame the president.  This one time, in Iraq, I had to eat T-rats or MREs, and I blame the president.  This one time, in Iraq, the heater in my bradley deadlined, and I blame the president.  This one time, in Iraq, I didn’t have airconditioning, and I blame the president.  This one time in Iraq, I didn’t have heat, and I blame the president.  This one time, in Iraq, we didn’t get mail for a while, and I blame the president.  This one time…

You get the picture.  It’s all the fault of the Bush administration.

Is it just me, or does that sound really silly?

LA, want to know why US military did not have the proper equipment in sufficient quantities, go ask your Democrat politicians. They have held the senior seats on congressional Armed Services committees since the ‘80s. They have resisted modernizing our military at every turn. John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and Jack Murtha opposed full force armor and acquisition of dedicated APC/ACC vehicle systems, not on grounds of cost, oh no, they opposed them on the grounds that it would make us appear to aggressive to our enemies. As for “losing"in Iraq, we won the war. Now we are backstopping for the citizens of Iraq, giving them the time and support to stand on their own. In case you have not noticed, we are inflicting casualties upon the enemy at a ratio of 39 to 1. And in the last 120 days they have focused the majority of attacks against civilians, which is pissing them off. Not at us, at the terrorists. The people of Iraq are building a representative republic in the middle of indian country. Will the whole thing run off the tracks? Possibly. At least we are trying. Would you rather we all get on our knees,convert to Islam and die as slaves? The death-worshipping Wahabists keep telling everyone they will rule the world and we will submit or die. Which do you choose? And don’t come back with"we have to understand and talk to them”. That is a non-starter, and if you are a Marine you damn well know that.

Liberal Agitator said, Don’t hurt yourself with that handgun sweetheart, or, perhaps with that sweet little attitude you’re sporting.

Oh, don’t worry “sweetheart”.

I’ll indulge your questions but if your next post is as rife with attitude as your last one you can monologue with yourself.

I’ll remember that as I’m talking to the person who said that “Americans are stupid”. As for monologuing with myself? If you want to go down that route, I’ll continue to ask for clarification and continue the calling out of your claims and you can be silent and ignore me. That only helps me.

It was a joke because the resolution was never meant as a legitimate question. The Republicans knew in advance what the outcome would be.

It was a legitimate question. You see, the Democrats are saying one thing and then voting another. The Republicans knew in advance that the Democrats would continue to be hypocritical, you’re right about that one.

Can you imagine if it did and the vote was in the affirmative?!!! It would have made George Bush and his administration look like idiots.

Yep. It would have. But it didn’t happen like that. So why say it?

Secondly, the resolution was very simply a partisan “fuck you.” It was a calculated attempt to force the question when there wasn’t really a question.

Oh no, it answered one question. The question was: will you guys put your vote to where your mouth is? We got a resounding “NO” on that question. It showed very clearly that the leading Democrats will espouse a cut and run policy in words and rhetoric, while in vote they’ll overwhelmingly vote the opposite. People like you will then rush to their defense, ignore their words and rhetoric, and then criticize the vote as if there was no need for it.

I mean come on, if you don’t get it your not following the game.

Read above.

Bush’s numbers are faltering, the war is becoming increasingly unpopular, and one Democrat, who just happened to formerly be vociferously in favor of the war, changes his mind and says we should start a staged pullout over 6 months while calling for maintaining a rapid-deployment force in the region, and the Republicans go ape shit and decide that they better do something quick.

Who was that Democrat? Please don’t say Murtha. That would just be sad and show that you buy so easily into manufactured stories.

So, if that’s the case, why hold the vote?

Ever hear the term, “put your money where your mouth is”?

Now, were the Republicans successful in accomplishing what they wanted? Yes, and No. They were, in my opinion, successful in making the Democrats look like idiots.

Correction: the Democrats are making themselves look like idiots. Voting one way and then immediately saying the exact opposite tends to make one look foolish. I don’t blame the Republicans for highlighting such hypocrisy. I applaud it.

They were successful in making it seem like there was a case when indeed there wasn’t.

Are you kidding? Everybody is on record now. You said as much yourself. Now we get to sit back and watch the hypocritical Democrats “stick foot in mouth”.

They weren’t successful in turning public opinion on the war. They weren’t successful in winning the big media coop they were after.

Wasn’t the intent.

They weren’t successful in making Murtha look like an idiot.

You’re right. Murtha, along with help from certain media and defenders, is making himself look foolish.

The vote was a nasty, partisan, calculated “put or shut-up” to anyone who wasn’t standing firmly with Bush or the Republican majority. It was cheap, it was un-necessary, and it was A JOKE.

You keep on saying this but I don’t see a strong case in support of these assertions. You just keep on asserting.

These guys running the show have made things FUBAR.

Beyond all relief? How?

You don’t continue to support a President who is a flaming idiot and who’s policy is not showing success.

Great argument there pal. Call names and ignore all of the progress. Two votes, an interim Constitution, a growing Iraqi army, astounding low coalition casualties = “not showing success” in your world. At least I know where you stand and where your dishonesty begins.

I’ve got friends in Iraq right now and I’ll tell you — they also think this President is an idiot!

I’ve got friends in Iraq right now who think you’re an idiot. Would you like to move beyond the name calling?

My best friends brother who was stationed at Camp Anaconda never got proper body armor.

Yes. The body armor shows us that the war isn’t perfect. Like those other wars we fought that were fought perfectly. Which ones again?

I don’t support the troops by leaving them up shits creek but apparently that’s what supporting the troops means to Bush and those who support them.

I wonder why the military overwhelmingly voted for the guy then. I guess you’ll now call the military “stupid” like you called Americans “stupid”. As such, I don’t buy your framing of the debate. We are not “leaving them up shits creek”.

The current policy is NOT working.

Again, two votes, an interim constitution, more Iraqi troops coming on line, infrastructure getting rebuilt built and bad guys getting blown up left and right = “NOT working” in your world.

Most of the Democrats are calling for intelligent policy and a clear exit strategy (which Bush still hasn’t defined — and, by the way is one of the major pieces a good warrior puts into place BEFORE he attacks).

What is the Democrats’ “intelligent policy”? As for your claim that Bush “still hasn’t defined”, it’s time to get new talking points and to start paying attention to what’s been put out there.

So, to pretend that the question is a simple “stay and win” or “retreat and defeat” is bogus.

“The question”? It is just one of many. Things are a bit more complex and require more than just one “the question”.

There are far more nuanced arguments to be had about our policy in Iraq but the easy one to play on in the media is the one you, Rob, and the rest of the Republican blogosphere are playing. It’s cheap. Let’s talk about the real issues like what IS our exit strategy.

Hey, stick around. You clearly don’t know this blog too well. We are talking about the “real issues” as well as this real issue of the Democrats saying one thing and voting another.

Let’s talk about the real issues like what IS our exit strategy.

Then address it.

I’m all for winning babe but let’s be smart about it so we DO win and aren’t locked into another Vietnam.

I’m a guy by the way. As for Vietnam - the parallels are many. We are winning every battle, the main stream media is against it, the communist left is against it, it is often mischaracterized as “civil war”, and the American left is actively rooting against its own country. So in that aspect, we are in “another Vietnam”.

If you really want to know what I think and why I think it feel free to send me an email or call me up for tea but don’t jump on me on this blog like I have to provide a fucking briefing to you on my opinions.

Most of your opinions centered around calling people juvenile names and twisting reality around. I have to call you on it.

I’ve gone on long enough. If you really want to know what I think and why I think it feel free to send me an email or call me up for tea but don’t jump on me on this blog like I have to provide a fucking briefing to you on my opinions. I won’t ask you to provide one on yours.

You’re wasting your breath, LA.  If you’re looking for intelligent debate, you’ve come to the wrong place.  Lik is only interested in repeating the talking points and his only response is “what do you mean.” It’s quite understandable that you think he’s a chick, but he’s still pre-op.

Wow! MI, we did not know you cared so much! You are such a sweetheart!XOXOXOXO!!!

[...] Yesterday Republicans released an ad blasting Democrats for their defeatist rhetoric. Today Democrats are responding. First they put out this shamefully inaccurate press release, now they’ve trotted out another war veteran1 from their ranks to tell us all how hateful the Republicans are being for criticizing the Democrats. Today, Senator Daniel Inouye, the Ranking Member of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee and a recipient of the Medal of Honor for his service in World War II, released the following statement: [...]

[...] Retreat And Defeat [...]

MI:

his only response is “what do you mean.”

Then what are you doing here?

Killing time.

A question for clarification is a “talking point”? Okay there…

Clarification is one thing.  You lack basic comprehension skills.

You’re a sad individual.

Yeah, but I’ve never been described as a childish dick by my friends.  So I got that going for me, which is nice.

modern instances blows, If you’re looking for intelligent debate, you’ve come to the wrong place.

Then what are you doing here? Bounce.

Lik is only interested in repeating the talking points and his only response is “what do you mean.”

A question for clarification is a “talking point”? Okay there…

It’s quite understandable that you think he’s a chick, but he’s still pre-op.

While I may have questions “talking points”, you have these sorts of juvenile insults.

You’re a sad individual.

Clarification is one thing. You lack basic comprehension skills.

So you claim, but you never point out where.

Yeah, but I’ve never been described as a childish dick by my friends.

So you claim, but you never point out who these “friends” are.

For the sake of honesty, the person he’s referring to is me.  When you unsubscribed him from a post I emailed him and told him that it was a childish, dick thing to do.

Though, really, MI hasn’t exactly been an even handed seeker of honest debate on this site lately either, so his criticism rings sort of hollow.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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