Say Anything Blog

Once again, the stated intent is the exact opposite of the effect. Imagine that!

Working at McDonalds for $6.50 an hour in Bismarck is about the best they’d want anyways, right?

Working high iron and pipefitting used to be their chosen professions.

Geez, the Indians in Minnesota and other parts of the country are doing quite well thanks largely to casinos.  For instance the Indian Casino in my home town of Mahnomen draws gambling crowds from everywhere including Canada and probably North Dakota.  Don’t the Indians in North Dakota have access to gambling.

doc? Do you mean the indians from Corsica, Sicily, and Vegas? Them and the"indians" from the government are the ones profiting from casinos.

Doc, ND Indians have casions...it just seems like there isn’t much of the casino money that finds it’s way down to the general reservation population.

Still, casinos are hardly a solution for the larger problem.  The whole reservation system has got to go.

Working at McDonalds for $6.50 an hour in Bismarck is about the best they’d want anyways, right?

Why is $6.50/hour bad?  It’s a step up from being unemployed, right?  You can live on that.  I know people who do.

And you’ve got to start somewhere.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

2Hotel9, you need to get around more.  There is a whole bunch of Indian (by that I mean native American Indians) who own, run and profit from casinos.  The one in my home town is called the Shooting Star, a Vegas type casino, and is owned and managed by the Anishinaabeg Indians on the White Earth Indian reservation.

Ya, I know there are casinos on Rez. It is much like union, the same group of people actually"own" gambling venues. Though the Argentines and Columbians are making inroads. And don’t forget the Cuban Ex-pats, they know how to turn a peso on a game.

So it’s going to be a bit hard getting the Indians off the rez if they don’t want to go

Sad but true.  Maybe if we start cutting the incentives for living on the res (special treatment from federal government, etc.) they’ll be more inclined to joining the rest of society.

many don’t want to leave because the rez is the only place where they can preserve their cultures.

I doubt that.  I’m scandanavian and there is a large, organized effort to keep my heritage alive.  It can be done.  Reservations aren’t neccessary for that.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob, can’t disagree with you on the reservation thing being a bit obsolete.  However, as you probably know the reservation thing was created by our Federal government as a way of 1) stealing land from the Indians 2) putting them in a known area where they could be watch and managed by Federal agents.  It was also the brilliant minds in Washington that gave the Indian tribes sovereignty status i.e. that status of independent nations, and the courts have upheld that status.  So it’s going to be a bit hard getting the Indians off the rez if they don’t want to go and many don’t want to leave because the rez is the only place where they can preserve their cultures.

I’d like to see some education/employment numbers for Indian families who live away from the reservation. I’m guessing the contrast between those numbers and the numbers detailed above would be stark.

I wouldn’t even have to “guess”. With very, very, very few exceptions, government intervention NEVER improves the lives of its citizens.

$6.50/hour is, pre-tax, about $12,480 a year.  That’s below the federal poverty line for a family of 2 and far, far below the federal poverty line for a family of 4.

Better than being unemployed, but not by much.  And making $6.50 an hour would make you among the highest paid in three of North Dakota’s counties (3 of the 100 poorest in the nation).

ND has the highest rate of people who work two jobs in the country.  Whatever happened to working one job and supporting a family off it?  I refuse to believe that these massive corporations, making huge profits, couldn’t afford to kick a few bucks back to their employees - not only helping them, but helping the local economy instead of shipping profits to their shareholders out of state.

I really don’t think you’re trying to say that people should work at McD’s and be happy about it, Rob.  Personally, I hope North Dakota can offer potential workers something better in the way of careers and opportunities.

Ryan, I’m not sure how you did that math, but at $6.50 an hour, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, that’s $13,520 pre tax. That’s above the poverty line in the contiguous 48 states for a family of 2.

By the way , a family of two is likely two adults, both of who could work, so let’s make that $27,040, pre tax. If you want to trot out the single mother canard, then I’ll simply retort that there is child support.

You’re either debating ill-informed or dishonestly, Ryan.

The problem with using artificial boundaries like the federal poverty line is it does not factor in regional cost of living.  Nor does it properly fold in tax credits and other subsidies (like food stamps) for low income families.  In my opinion, it is a meaningless number.  Poverty should be defined in terms of impoverishment not potential risk.  The statisticians at the Census Bureau use the risk argument (I think) simply because it makes their job easier, even if it has no practical meaning.

$6.50/hour isn’t a great wage, but you can get by with it.  Most jobs have upward mobility if you are hard working, so after about six months, you are talking about $10/hour with benefits for a junior management position (my oldest daughter got her first $10/hour management position after 2 months).  Two adults working at that wage and you are suddenly talking about $40k per year.  Unless you are in a metropolitan area, this is enough to afford a three-bed room house and two cars, and a two-week vacation per year, assuming you can manage your money wisely.

The real problem is not too many $6.50/hour jobs, but that we don’t have enough skilled workers in this country, and over time we are producing fewer. 

I work at a University and associate with quite a few contractors---you simply can’t find engineering types these days to fill all of the positions you need, unless you import them (e.g.) from India.  The UN educational system is pumping out too many IT people that only know how to write simple PHP scripts for SQL and munchkin-level web pages, and way too few science and engineering majors.  As the president of a small company from Dallas told me yesterday, “Everybody wants to be a programmer these days”.

Companies would move into poorer areas (due to lower tax burdens and real estate costs) if it were possible to find qualified workers.  I know of a company that considered moving a printed-circuit-board manufacturing plant into Corinth, MS a few years ago---then decided against it, after they realized there were no EETs (electronic engineering technical degree) in that area that they could hire.

You want to help impoverished areas?  Support and encourage Universities to bring outreach programs to these communities that encourage students from that area to train in fields other than car repair and webpage design.  This economy has plenty of capacity to create many more high paying jobs, the real problem is we have maxed out our skilled labor pool.

I wonder if the problem is the reservation, or the fact that people have learned that they will have food and shelter without working, and then the only “career” suggested by so called leadership is work in a casino--in other words, gambling, not work, is the way to prosperity.

It seems to me that closing the casinos and cutting welfare (or requiring work for welfare payments) might be the kindest thing we could do for those on reservations.

and what does that have to do with what I said about letting people do what they want on the land they already have?

Ryan, I have been in and out of the general workforce since the ‘70s. The only times I have worked for less than $10 hr was on jobs where the cutomer could not afford to pay that on labor. Have only drawn unemployment in the 26 weeks after I left the Army. It was my money and I damn well took it back. Go cry a river of crocdiletears somewhere else. I ain’t buying it.

"We Need To Get The Indians Off The Reservations”

you need to let the indians do what they want on the little land they have left after the white guys came and forcefully declared ownership of half the continent. That includes letting them sit around getting drunk all day in a pile of their own garbage, because what the hell do you know about being in their shoes.

And you’re right, most indians do get drunk from alcohol off the money.

I never said that, and you’re very wrong.

how and why is it an open book?

If you have the capital and the will and/or the will to get that capital - you can easily own land in America. You don’t even have to be American.

you need to let the indians do what they want on the little land they have left after the white guys came and forcefully declared ownership of half the continent.

What are they? 150 years old? Why do you say, “on the little land they have left”? America is an open book in terms of who can own land so that comment of yours really doesn’t apply.

how and why is it an open book?

you need to let the indians do what they want on the little land they have left after the white guys came and forcefully declared ownership of half the continent. That includes letting them sit around getting drunk all day in a pile of their own garbage, because what the hell do you know about being in their shoes.

Tp tell you the truth, most indians do put themselves in their own dang shoes.  Most of them mooch of the government to get their money.  And you’re right, most indians do get drunk from alcohol off the money.  But to tell you the truth, here in ND their is alot of meth.  And you know what?  A majority of the people on the reservations are making meth, testing it on dogs, and taking it themselves.  Rob’s right, kick the Indians that ‘are’ lazy off the reservations.  They don’t need to be wasting our tax money.  They need to go out in the real world in see what it really is about.

And yes we did take the land.  But the Native American’s that are lazy’ and still complaining need to get a grip and take life as it is.  Get off the reservation and do something about themselves.

I didn’t address that part of your comment so what are you talking about?

tell me, please, how I was suggesting any action other than letting the native americans do what they want on the land they have. Like hotel, you’re arguing just to argue.

You are keeping the red and the black men down.

I deeply resent that assumption. You really don’t know me very well. I often work for them, actually...and have stayed on reservation land all over the west many times.

Carl B. holier than thou holier than marty get a grip keep it simple diverts the argument instead of addressing it, and what does that have to do with what I said about letting people do what they want on the land they already have?

I didn’t address that part of your comment so what are you talking about?

KIS said: you need to let the indians do what they want on the little land they have left

Actually, the tribal lands comprise just slightly less than 2% of the total land area of the US (source: BLM), while the american indian and eskimo populations in the US are slightly less than 1% of the total population (source: 2000 Census). That doesn’t count any american indian land ownership outside of tribal lands, not to mention the fact that there exist legal mechanisms for incorporating more tribal land. So, proportionally speaking, the american indians aren’t doing too bad.

That includes letting them sit around getting drunk all day in a pile of their own garbage, because what the hell do you know about being in their shoes.

Wow, such a lack of compassion, not to mention fallacious--shades of the chickenhawk argument leftists like to trot out when debating the war.

Wow, such a lack of compassion, not to mention fallacious–shades of the chickenhawk argument leftists like to trot out when debating the war.

??? white guys like to sit around and get filthy drunk on their land just the same, and I feel the same way about them...you’re making some bold assumptions. I am not “leftist”, I have made that clear many times.

Carl B. holier than thou holier than marty get a grip keep it simple gets lost and starts the insults, tell me, please, how I was suggesting any action other than letting the native americans do what they want on the land they have. Like hotel, you’re arguing just to argue.

Oh my goodness. You’re lost. Pay attention and I’ll spell it out for you.

In this comment I questioned the age of these Indians in regard to your “on the little land they have left after the white guys came”. The “white guys” came a lot longer ago than any Indian alive today. You follow?

Also in that comment I made the point that America is an “open book” in terms of land ownership therefore your “forcefully declared ownership of half the continent” comment does not apply. It applied to Indians of long ago who are now deceased, but not to Indians alive today. You still following?

You then questioned what I meant by “open book”. This was a good question.

I then replied that if one has the will and the capital, one can easily own land in America.

You then went off topic and asked me something that I did not address.

I recognized the diversion.

You then give me a reply showing me that you didn’t follow the conversation and topped it off with a smart-assed comment.

I can’t simplify it for you any more. I wasn’t arguing just to argue as you ignorantly stated, I was being clear and responding to your posts. Typical for you though, you got lost, didn’t respond to what was actually said, diverted the argument, and then topped it off with an insult. A typical conversation with you.

You are leftist, you have made that ABUNDANTLY CLEAR many times. You are keeping the red and the black men down. I give them jobs at every opportunity, you scumbags tear them down at every opportunity. Now take the razor firmly between thumb and index finger and DO IT. I double dawg dare your ass.

You sure take leftist positions. Shoe, fitting, all of that.

Indians get special benefits not available to any other ethnic groups, not to mention sweeping powers of autonomy--that’s why they can have casinos when no others can be built--why should we fund their poor choices? It’s just enabling them to make those very same poor choices.

I don’t begrudge them the special status of the reservations, and I have no problem with helping people in need. What I do take issue with is enabling people to ruin their lives, the ‘help’ we currently give is clearly keeping them down. I’d like to see them empowered, and they are the best people to do it, for themselves.

And you’re right, most indians do get drunk from alcohol off the money.

Uh well it came across that way.

That includes letting them sit around getting drunk

And about myself being very wrong?  I think I stated the truth.

carlB, you really are a simple-minded son of a bitch. Go slit your wrists and leave the rest of the world to its own business. Remember, don’t cross the road, up and down the tracks gets the job done, you leftard dumbass.

Bullshit. I am not arguing with you. You have done nothing but spout leftard horseshit. As for your"Helping the poor, downtrodden minorities”, give it a rest. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!! Leftard asswipe. We know you from your words, all of which you glean from your Marxist/Socialist education. Now toddle on back to Kos, your trough of talkingpoints and platitudes is getting cold.

what are you trying to get me to say, likwidshoe? All I’ve said to do is let people do what they want on their land...it’s a fairly universal ideal that I believe you stand by as well.

The Indian reservation system was the first large government sponsored welfare system.  Considering how it has absolutely failed to help the intended participants, you’d think we would have learned from that folly not to extend welfare to others.

[...] On a related note, perhaps this wide-spread corruption in Indian affairs dealings will cause some people to re-think my proposal for ending the reservation system all together. [...]

SIR WHY WE GIVE BACK THERE LAND THEY HAD AND WE GO ABOUT OWR OWN WAY REMEBER THE WHITE PEOPE TOOK IT AND THE GOVERMENT PUT THE INDAIN ON A 6X12 REZ

B.  “We” did not “take it”.  The Indians did not subscribe to the notion that anyone “owned land.”

Communism is evil

What was the purpose of your article?  Having grown up on the Turtle Mountain Indian Reservation, I was confused by your article. Was your navigation system broken, was your eyesight so poor that you couldn’t accurately read the road signs or did you step out into the twilight zone?  I find what you wrote to be a grossly inaccurate account of what life on the reservation is like.  Although, I do not live there now I live close and work on the reservation.  And while I do agree there is a lot of poverty, I don’t think that most households are as grim and disgusting as your article suggested.  Your tale about a 29 year old grandmother makes it seem as though it were common place on the reservation. Your view of the place I call home is very unacceptable.  By the way, where did you get your psychology degree, because you sure seem to think you “know” a lot about what Native Americans think.  I really don’t appreciate the way your article tried to lump your limited experience to reflect all or most of what the Turtle Mountain Reservation is like.  So once again I ask what was the purpose of your article?  To misinform, to bash Native people to try to make you or other white folks feel better about themselves by leading them to believe that they are better than the Native people of North Dakota, or a futile attempt to rally support to end reservations?  We are all Gods children and until we start looking out for one another and trying to help each other instead of pointing a finger things will never get better.

I don’t think that most households are as grim and disgusting as your article suggested. 

Good thing I didn’t say that “most” households on the reservation are like that.  That’s something you read into my article.

What I wrote was fact.  I saw what I saw, and I wrote it down.  If you’re disputing my facts, prove me wrong.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

I suppose anyone could tell a tale true or not to try to manipulate people into believing the worst possible things about others but what does it really accomplish?  Once again what was your purpose?

Diane, my goal was to call attention to the abhorrent conditions on North Dakota’s Indian reservations in an attempt to spur change.

I told the truth about what I saw, and never once did I say that what I saw represented all Indians.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Again, Rob who are you suppose to be?  I mean, come on here, what makes you think people would listen to you?

I have to tell I was not mad at what you wrote.  I never once said what you saw wasn’t true, but who do you think you are?  You are nobody to us.  I can see why you would want things to change.  You can’t change anybody but yourself.  If certain individuals won’t change, what can you do?

Janel, I am concerned citizen.  I wasn’t aware that I needed to be anything more before exercising my free speech.

If you think I’m nothing then fine, ignore me.  But a lot of people don’t ignore me.  A lot of people read what I write, and I’m not going to stop writing about the problems on the reservation.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

If certain individuals won’t change, what can you do?

You’re trying to change Rob, Janel, by threats and intimidation.  You are intolerant of a diversity of opinion.  You want his opinion silenced, because you don’t want to hear it.  Take your own counsel.

"Give the lefties a pile of money, and they’ll spend it buying votes.” - Rush Limbaugh on the “bailout”.

If you had actually mentioned some of the many positive things that are happening on the Turtle Mountain Reservation as well as the many things the people who live here are doing to help those who need a “helping hand” you would have been better received.  However, your title suggests that you find the reservation as a whole appalling and people in general don’t like to be “put down”.  People deserve to be treated with dignity and if you truely understood the area you would know that a lot of the people who live in this area love their family and will never leave.

If you had actually mentioned some of the many positive things that are happening on the Turtle Mountain Reservation as well as the many things the people who live here are doing to help those who need a “helping hand” you would have been better received.

Maybe I should have mentioned some of the positive things on the reservation in the same column, but does the fact that I didn’t change the facts as I wrote them?

No.

And don’t lecture me about treating people with dignity.  I’m the one who wants the Indians to pull themselves out of the poverty-and-crime addled communities they’re living in and demand something better.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

When you only tell one side of a story… the story is biased.  Do you actually know anything besides what you “found” in your limited exposure?  And other than reading the front page news in our local newspaper ”Tribal Council Bans Controversail Blogger From Reservation” I had never heard of you or this article you wrote before.  And like a lot of other people I decided to see what it is you wrote that was considered so controversial.  You may not have said all Natives were this way but you never said that they weren’t.

Janel - I mean, come on here, what makes you think people would listen to you?

You’re here! So are a lot from “your community”. They’ve even had official meetings about Rob’s writings. I’d say that a lot of people are already listening. Plus add the 8,000 or so who came in from this link just today, and you’ve got a whole lot of people who are listening.

I mean, come on here, who is NOT listening?

You are nobody to us.

He’s banned from the reservation for one article. That means he is very much a somebody to you.