Home Mobile Archives Reader Blogs Register Login

Sunday, August 07, 2005

Georgia’s “Disturbing” New Law

The New York Times:

Georgia has passed a disturbing new law that bars people from voting without government-issued photo identification and seems primarily focused on putting up obstacles for black and poor voters. The Justice Department is now weighing whether the law violates the Voting Rights Act. Clearly it does, and it should be blocked from taking effect.

The new law's supporters claim that it is an attempt to reduce voter fraud, but Secretary of State Cathy Cox has said she cannot recall a single case during her tenure when anyone impersonated a voter.


Read the whole, stupid thing.

So the assumption being made here is that applying for a $10 identification card will be too difficult for poor people and blacks. But I'm wondering, why would this necessarily be harder for blacks than other demographics? Like, for instance, white people? Or Hispanic people? Is the implication here that black people are dumber or poorer than other segments of the population? So dumb and/or poor that they can't apply for and receive identification? Isn't that a rather arrogant, borderline racist assumption to make?

Now go read this, which is text from the actual law passed in Georgia. Specifically Section 7, which reads as follows:

The department shall not be authorized to collect a fee for an identification card from any person:

(1) Who swears under oath that he or she is indigent and cannot pay the fee for an identification card, that he or she desires an identification card in order to vote in a primary or election in Georgia, and that he or she does not have any other form of identification that is acceptable under Code Section 21-2-417 for identification at the polls in order to vote; and

(2) Who produces evidence that he or she is registered to vote in Georgia.


Well what do you know. If you don't want to pay the $10 it takes to receive a state identification card all you have to do is sign a form stating that you cannot afford it and bam...you've got yourself some identification.

So what, exactly, is the opposition to this law based on? Isn't it a bit ludicrous to say that $10 is going to put a financial hurt on anybody, especially in light of the fact that people can get the requisite identification for free if they can't afford the fee? If this is the sum total of the opposition to this law I've got to believe that the people advocating against it are acting on ulterior motives, and the only ulterior motive I can think of is the fact that they want to keep it easy to commit vote fraud.

Comments

Avatar for keep it simple

The fact is, this will affect poor voters most. Voter impersonation at the polls has never, even in conspiracy theory, been a problem. Why support another law on the books that isn’t needed?

keep it simple on August 7, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for Seth Williams

Sorry simple, but there are more than enough examples of people multiple registering and registering with a fake identities. I’m not worried that someone is going to vote as me, I’m worried that someone will effectively nullify my vote by registering with multiple names. A good voter ID system goes a long way towards helping this.

Seth Williams on August 7, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

It has never been a problem at the polls, nor would it have any affect on the falsification of mail-ins or the like. We’re talking about votes cast in person, and the duplications you’re refering to were not cast by physical impersonators at the polls. What it would do is knock a huge chunk of poor voters off the mark and throw another pile of paperwork in the law.

keep it simple on August 7, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

There IS no problem with in-person voters not being IDed; physical impersonation isn’t a problem at all. Also, as it stands one does have to present identification, it just doesn’t have to be a photo ID.

keep it simple on August 7, 2005 at 07:08 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum

You’re simply denying reality, simple.  It is a problem when you can register as whoever you want and vote under that name without producing any form of identification.

And yes, the mail-in ballots produce problems of their own, but this is in no way a valid reason to not address the problem of in-person voters not being IDed

Sphagnum on August 7, 2005 at 07:09 pm
Avatar for Eneils Bailey

I think the democrats integrate the lack voting identification requirements into a strategy of getting as many votes as they can. If you are denying that no problems exist or will continue to exist, you are simply not being truthful or terribly ill-informed. It is the highest right and responsibility that an individual has in selecting the leadership for all levels of government. Everyone must have a picture ID to vote, if an individual does not have the resources to pay for one, then give it to them free. I don’t want someone voting multiple times to get into my wallet.

Eneils Bailey on August 8, 2005 at 01:08 am
Avatar for Sphagnum

There IS no problem with in-person voters not being IDed; physical impersonation isn’t a problem at all.

You’re denying reality again. You’re telling me you don’t think there is a single person out there that is impersonationg someone else at the polls or voting under a completely ficticious name?  Not one?

If there is one, there is SOME problem…

Sphagnum on August 8, 2005 at 03:09 am
Avatar for Carrick

Keep it simple isn’t:

Voter impersonation at the polls has never, even in conspiracy theory, been a problem.

Excluding mind-bending conspiracy theories, many cities, especially Chicago has a problem with the walking dead on voting day.

What it would do is knock a huge chunk of poor voters off the mark and throw another pile of paperwork in the law.

Conflating two issues.  The “paperwork” is nothing.  All it requires is that the voter produce positive ID, which the vast majority of Georgians own already.  “Knock off a huge chunk of poor voters”????????  Exactly how?

I thought this mental-midget nonsense was pretty funny too:

but Secretary of State Cathy Cox has said she cannot recall a single case during her tenure when anyone impersonated a voter.

So they don’t have a way to positively ID voters and don’t remember catching anybody impersonating another voter, which would be nearly impossible without ID cards.  The complete and utter circularity of moonbat reasoning sometimes can be utterly breathtaking.
Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 04:08 am
Avatar for Daniel

Washington just passed a law like this awhile back… I, for one, am glad.  I’d really like to see it spread to more states.

Daniel on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 am
Avatar for ICallMasICM

’The fact is, this will affect poor voters most.’

Actually it affects fraudulent voters most. Anyone who suggests that voters shouldn’t need picture ID is endorsing fraud.

ICallMasICM on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 am
Avatar for WOOF

Fraud will not be stopped by these measures.
18 year olds are belly up to the bar with their fake State ID’s. People are emptying your debit accounts and registering cars in your name right now.
The law is an impediment to lawful voters. The aged, handicapped,and poor.
We will see what the Justice Dept tells Ga.

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 05:09 am
Avatar for keep it simple

IN-PERSON VOTER IMPERSONATION IS NOT A PROBLEM. There IS NO PROBLEM. Fraudulent votes of which you’re speaking are NOT CAST IN PERSON. PHOTO ID’s are NOT NECESSARY. Why do you want to pass a law for a non-existent problem?

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 07:08 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

WOOF said, Fraud will not be stopped by these measures.

No it won’t be stopped.  But it will be harder.  That’s the whole idea.

“keep it simple” said, IN-PERSON VOTER IMPERSONATION IS NOT A PROBLEM. There IS NO PROBLEM.

Says the guy who keeps on changing his nickname. Right Carl?

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 08:08 am
Avatar for WOOF

GreatGranma Scarlett now has to drag her old bones down to the DMV and give them $10 from her SS check, because someone else might be commiting a fraud? Disenfranchise an honest citizen’s most basic right, because of dishonest ones?

Ga. always loved the Poll Tax , that is what this law establishes.

Ain’t gonna fly

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 09:08 am
Avatar for Sphagnum

Seriously, Woof, you’re being ignorant intentionally here?

GreatGranma Scarlett now has to drag her old bones down to the DMV and give them $10 from her SS check, because someone else might be commiting a fraud?

::sigh:: If you actually read Rob’s post, you’d note that it is extremely simple to get the ID without paying a dime…

Disenfranchise an honest citizen’s most basic right, because of dishonest ones?

How is anybody being disenfranchised?  No one is, unless you are a fraud.  Asking for proof that you are who you say you are is just common sense.

Ain’t gonna fly

Says who? It’s the law, it’s already been established…

Sphagnum on August 8, 2005 at 11:09 am
Avatar for Carrick

I think that WOOF has misunderstood the law.  All it requires is that people produce a government issued photo ID.  A current driver’s license, an expired passport, valid military id, etc. all count as legitimate “government issued photo ids”.  Guess WOOF hasn’t flown lately:  When you pass through security at an airport, you have the same exact requirements to produce a government issued photo ID as for voting in Georgia.

As far as I can see, the left is making a stink on this precisely because they know ignorant deadbeats vote 95-05 democratic, and this may reduce the number of deadbeats voting.  How??? Remember that some of these people have warrants out for their arrest, so they can’t exactly waltz into the DMV to request a new ID.

So the way I analyze this, the only voting block that will get marginalized is are ignorant deadbeats who “The Man is trying to hold down”.  If I were the DNC, this is the group whose voting rights I would want to be seen defending.

WOOF:

Fraud will not be stopped by these measures.

Nothing will STOP fraud.  Georgia is just trying to make it a bit harder to commit and a bit easier to catch.  If it stops 90% of the fraud and costs the state very little it’s worth it.  Most or all states already issue photo ids for people who can’t legitimately obtain a driver’s license, and the vast majority of adults in this country already possess some form of government issued photo ID, so the real cost to society and the individual is virtually zero.

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 12:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

Scarlett is not indigent (SS) she has to pay.
A Poll tax.
if she’s 80 yrs old in a wheel chair, the DMV is a large imposition of what little time she has left. Disenfranchisement.

Nice sob story.  If getting an ID takes too long for “what little time she has left”, then what’s the point of spending that time voting?

Deadbeats? What part of the Constitution says a citizen must have money to vote?

Nowhere.  Good thing that this point of yours doesn’t apply to the story.

9 Southern states voting laws must pass muster with the Dept of Justice before their laws go into effect. They have a history of denying the vote to qualified applicants.

Good thing that this isn’t “denying the vote to qualified applicants”.

Do you have a real point to make WOOF?

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 01:08 pm
Avatar for Carrick

WOOF:

… if she’s 80 yrs old in a wheel chair, the DMV is a large imposition of what little time she has left. Disenfranchisement.

Quit shoveling horseshift bullshit (gotta stand with Novak).  The time required to get a photo ID is no worse than the amount of time required to vote.  If she is a citizen and wants her vote to count, she should be happy to know that efforts are being made to stop fraudulent votes, which act only to reduce the importance of her vote.

Fun links.  I didn’t realize that technically you don’t have to show the TSA your id.  I’ll keep that in mind next time I want to be a “selectee”.  That sounds like a lot of fun!

Also (legit) thanks for reminding me about the DOJ oversight on southern voting regulations.  How quickly we forget.

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 01:08 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum

Woof, the Constitution doesn’t say anything about me needing to pay the DMV to register my car either, but it’s not a violation of my rights to require me to do so.

The State has every right to ask for valid identification of it’s voters, as long as it is not done in a discriminatory fashion (only blacks must show ID, etc) which you have not even begun to make a valid case that this is…

Sphagnum on August 8, 2005 at 01:08 pm
Avatar for WOOF

If you actually read Rob’s post, you’d note that it is extremely simple to get the ID without paying a dime…

Scarlett is not indigent (SS) she has to pay.
A Poll tax.
if she’s 80 yrs old in a wheel chair, the DMV is a large imposition of what little time she has left. Disenfranchisement.

Deadbeats? What part of the Constitution says a citizen must have money to vote?

9 Southern states voting laws must pass muster with the Dept of Justice before their laws go into effect. They have a history of denying the vote to qualified applicants.

Flying without showing ID to the TSA
http://permanenttourist.com/4paths/fly-without-id.html
http://cryptome.org/no-id-fly.htm

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 01:09 pm
Avatar for WOOF

Valid ID does not mean a State ID.
Used to be able to get a Passport i9f someone vouched for your citizenship and signed some form.

The Twenty-fourth Amendment, ratified in 1964, outlawed the use of this tax (or any other tax) as a pre-condition in voting in Federal elections. A 1966 Supreme Court decision held that the poll tax as applied to state elections violated the equal protection clause of United States Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_Tax

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 01:09 pm
Rob
Rob
19965 comments
Send a private message

Quit shoveling horseshift bullshit (gotta stand with Novak).

That made me snort Coke all over my laptop.

Thanks for that, Carrick.  Jerk.  wink

I didn’t realize that technically you don’t have to show the TSA your id. I’ll keep that in mind next time I want to be a “selectee”. That sounds like a lot of fun!

I have an inherent fear of stout women with latex gloves...so I think I’ll just show them my ID.

IN-PERSON VOTER IMPERSONATION IS NOT A PROBLEM. There IS NO PROBLEM. Fraudulent votes of which you’re speaking are NOT CAST IN PERSON. PHOTO ID’s are NOT NECESSARY. Why do you want to pass a law for a non-existent problem?

Look who sounds like Baghdad Bob.  “The infidels are being slaughtered.  There is no invasion.  Everything is hunky dory.  Please ignore the man behind the curtain.”

By the way, Carl, pick a name a stick with it.  All this changing crap is making things confusing.  One name, or I’m gonna ban ‘ya.  I don’t want to ban you, but enough is enough.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on August 8, 2005 at 03:08 pm
Avatar for moderninstances

I think you’ve got to look at this in the context of the numerous administrative obstacles that states have used since the voter’s act in 1965.  Maybe this one law doesn’t seem so bad, but it’s one in a coordinated string of actions.

moderninstances on August 8, 2005 at 03:08 pm
Rob
Rob
19965 comments
Send a private message

Maybe this one law doesn’t seem so bad, but it’s one in a coordinated string of actions.

What are the other actions?  And can’t we take the laws on a case-by-case basis?  I mean...if this law doesn’t seem so bad why not pass it and then consider the next one?

And I’m still not seeing where this law puts undue hardship on much of anybody.


When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

robport.gif border=0

Rob on August 8, 2005 at 03:09 pm
Avatar for Seth Williams

simple and WOOF: The poll tax was unconstitutional because it was designed specificly to disenfranchise blacks (because, at that time, blacks were generally too poor to pay it). The law above was designed to with provisions specificly exempting poor people from any fees. Insofar as your example of the 80 year old grandma, get real. Methinks nana wasn’t getting to the polls too much before this if an hour in the DMV is too much out of her precious time.

Insofar as the claim that in-person voter impersonation isn’t a problem, even a casual Google session gives the lie to that statement.

Seth Williams on August 8, 2005 at 04:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

It creates an UNECESSARY hardship, regardless of how minute, where none is needed. Again, I don’t understand why you would be in favor of a law for a non-existent problem. Nobody is addressing this. Would you be in favor of a law requiring all drivers of automobiles to wear helmets? THAT would at least have some sort of effect on something.

By the way, Carl, pick a name a stick with it. All this changing crap is making things confusing. One name, or I’m gonna ban ‘ya. I don’t want to ban you, but enough is enough.

???

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 04:08 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum

It creates an UNECESSARY hardship

Thus is the cruzt (however you spell that) of the debate.  Is it necessary?  I believe it ABSOLUTELY is…

Right now, we have a system where I can register to vote as 40 different people and get away with it with hardly any effort at all.  Shouldn’t we strive to make it reasonably difficult to commit voting fraud?  Isn’t being asking to produce valid ID (which 99% of the voting population already has) a reasonable restriction to put in place for this goal to be obtained?

Sphagnum on August 8, 2005 at 04:09 pm
Avatar for Carrick

Keeping it simple isn’t living up to his namesake again:

If you believe it is absolutely necessary, what says you of the past…oh…200 years of our society?

History lesson time, but I’ll keep it short.  Voter fraud has been a problem for the last 200 years.  Indeed, voter fraud in the 1960 presidential election is generally recognized as changing the outcome of the election.

Where is the problem???

Exactly, Carl B!  If there isn’t any problem, but it doesn’t cost the state anything to implement, then it’ll have no effect.  No problem.  Right? 

Or is it that are you advocating a ban on Georgia laws that have no effect?

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Right now, we have a system where I can register to vote as 40 different people and get away with it with hardly any effort at all.

You could not register and vote as 40 different people in person. If you believe it is absolutely necessary, what says you of the past...oh...200 years of our society? Where is the problem???

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Or is it that are you advocating a ban on Georgia laws that have no effect?

you would not be in favor of removing unecessary laws from the books?

Voter fraud has been a problem for the last 200 years.

At the polls, not the case at all.

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for moderninstances

What are the other actions?

Here’s the wikipedia entry for the Civil Rights Act of 1965: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act

And can’t we take the laws on a case-by-case basis? I mean…if this law doesn’t seem so bad why not pass it and then consider the next one?

Yes, but when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism . . .

If I go on a rampage ala “Natural Born Killers,” I’m pursued as a serial killer, not the perpetrator of numerous separate murders.  Every act occurs within a context.

moderninstances on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

"keep it simple” said, Is that your final reasoning likwidshoe? I’d think you of all people here would not be in favor of creating a law for a problem that doesn’t exist.

If you keep on claiming that the problem doesn’t exist, then there is no talking to you.  I just outlined how easy it is to commit voter fraud.  But don’t address that.

moderninstances said, Yes, but when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism . . .

Wow.  All of that rhetoric over showing an ID at the polls.  Pathetic.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Is that your final reasoning likwidshoe? I’d think you of all people here would not be in favor of creating a law for a problem that doesn’t exist.

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 05:09 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

"keep it simple” said, I defy you to find a single case of in-person voter impersonation in this country.

How would you even know in a lot of cases?  All you do is show up, tell them a name, and they cross it off the list.  A lot of the time they don’t even ask you for the address. That’s it.  End of story.  And now you are sitting here telling me that “There IS NO PROBLEM.” Those of us who have voted know better.

Have you ever voted Carl B. “keep it simple”?  It appears not.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 05:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Insofar as the claim that in-person voter impersonation isn’t a problem, even a casual Google session gives the lie to that statement.

paste links please; I’m not speaking out of my ass. I defy you to find a single case of in-person voter impersonation in this country.

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 05:09 pm
Avatar for WOOF

Older people vote, they know the worth of the ballot.
Why do you think pols are always visiting seniors?

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 05:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

and you haven’t answered: why create a law for a problem that doesn’t exist?

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

moderninstances said, In the interest of transparency, here’s the source of all that pathetic rhetoric:

Nice try. No cigar. How about providing an argument as to how requiring an ID at the polls is, “a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism”.  Until then, I’ll consider it baseless rhetoric regardless of whatever document you grabbed it from. It’s baseless rhetoric because you are perverting the meaning to suit your own agenda.

I find it interesting that those who believe that impersonation is rampant at our polling places generally are the same folks who think that the idea of fixing computer voting machines is ludicrous.

Non sequitur.

“keep it simple” does anything but, Voter fraud does not happen at the polls. PERIOD. Why create a law? THERE IS NO PROBLEM!

Yes. We heard you Baghdad Bob.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

There is ultimately verification.

Where and what?  What verification?  It doesn’t exist.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM, why create a law?

Because there is a problem whether you want to admit it or not, that’s why.

I would pull a classic “likwidshoe” and ask you to provide me with a single case, but it’s unecessary…because IT’S NOT A PROBLEM. Why are you in favor of passing a law for a problem that doesn’t exist? It IS as simple as that!

Okay Baghdad Bob. We heard you the first time.  We just don’t buy your explanation no matter how many times you capitalize your words and no matter how many exclamation points you put at the end of your sentences.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum
Sphagnum on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

"keep it simple” said, and you haven’t answered: why create a law for a problem that doesn’t exist?

Read Seth William’s comment Baghdad Bob.  Learn how to Google Carl.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

There is ultimately verification. THERE IS NO PROBLEM, why create a law?

I wish that was true.

I would pull a classic “likwidshoe” and ask you to provide me with a single case, but it’s unecessary...because IT’S NOT A PROBLEM. Why are you in favor of passing a law for a problem that doesn’t exist? It IS as simple as that!

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Where...is...the...problem?

Where

is

the

problem

that ordains new law? THERE...IS...NO...PROBLEM. VOTER FRAUD DOES NOT HAPPEN AT THE POLLS. This is unecessary and would only serve to hinder people, overwhelmingly the poor.

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for moderninstances

I find it interesting that those who believe that impersonation is rampant at our polling places generally are the same folks who think that the idea of fixing computer voting machines is ludicrous.

moderninstances on August 8, 2005 at 06:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

By the way Carl,

Here’s one example

Here’s another

But...but...THERE IS NO PROBLEM!!!!

wink

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

first example: where would that vote end up?

second example (from text):

“We have had stories and documentation of people showing up multiple times with voter registration cards and voting in multiple precincts,” Denny said.

Rep. Rafael Anchia, R-Dallas, a committee member, said there was no testimony of voter fraud, just anecdotal stories.

“We did not hear one shred of evidence that there is voter fraud in this state,” Anchia said. “If this was a court of law, this case would be thrown out for lack of evidence.”

Besides the fact that the guy claims he has documentation but presents none...he’s talking out his ass.

likwidshoe, maybe you’d like to give it a shot? There’s a problem? “prove it” is what you’d say.

Voter fraud does not happen at the polls. PERIOD. Why create a law? THERE IS NO PROBLEM!

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for moderninstances

moderninstances said, Yes, but when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism . . .

Wow. All of that rhetoric over showing an ID at the polls. Pathetic.

In the interest of transparency, here’s the source of all that pathetic rhetoric: http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

moderninstances on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for Seth Williams

simple says: paste links please; I’m not speaking out of my ass. I defy you to find a single case of in-person voter impersonation in this country.

I’m not “talking out of my ass” either. As I said, a casual google on the words “voter fraud” gives me 934,000 links to ponder. I pass 5 of them along to you. Note: these are talking about in-person voter registration (and voting), NOT absentee ballots (or not exclusively anyway). Here you go:

During the last several weeks, the Florida Department of Law Enforcement has received numerous complaints and has initiated several investigations...regarding widespread and sometimes organized efforts to commit voter fraud. These complaints are regarding voter registrations, party affiliation forms, and absentee
ballots.
Link.

Provisional ballots are ballots that voters are allowed to cast if the voter’s name isn’t on the voter roll at their polling place...Herrera says roughly 25 percent of the provisional ballots in Bernalillo County have been rejected as invalid.
Link.

On election day, hundreds of rented vans and buses hauled people to vote for Mary Landrieu, in violation of Louisiana’s Anti-Vote Hauling Act. Some of these vehicles transported people from one precinct to another to enable them to vote multiple times...Thousands who registered and voted gave their addresses as public housing units that have been abandoned.
Link.

Mary Poppins. Jeffrey Dahmer. Janet Jackson. Chad Staton. Defiance County elections officials were confident the first three hadn’t moved to their small community. But the fourth one lived there, and - in exchange for crack cocaine - tried to falsely submit the first three names and more than 100 others onto the county’s voter registration rolls, police said.
Link.

Bellman said his office has had numerous calls from people...complaining that those taking down the voter information deliberately put inaccurate information on the form...Bellman said he also received a batch of registrations...that contained several hundred forms, including ones that have been held since July and ones with fictitious names and addresses and even wrong counties.
Link.

Seth Williams on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

Where…is…the…problem?

For the dipshits out there: you can vote simply by saying a name that then gets crossed off the voter rolls.  There is no verification.

THERE…IS…NO…PROBLEM. VOTER FRAUD DOES NOT HAPPEN AT THE POLLS.

I wish that was true.

This is unecessary and would only serve to hinder people, overwhelmingly the poor.

It’s free.  So out with this stupid argument.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for WOOF

Where I live you have to show a voter reg card or some other ID and sign your name.
Your sig is checked against one on file.
There are also reps of both parties, poll watchers who can challenge your sig/id.

WOOF on August 8, 2005 at 06:09 pm
Avatar for Carrick

Seth:  Thanks for the work in digging up some references.  I guess that Carl B KIS failed to notice the example from 1960 that I pointed to earlier as well.  Changing the outcome of a presidential election is as dramatic as you can get.

My position is simple:  Require photo IDs for voting, but make them free.  If we are going to spend billions of federal dollars improving electronic voting machines, the least we can do is spend a relatively few number of dollars on getting them photo ids.  Even if 10% of the voting age population had no photo ID (from what I have read, this is likely an extreme upper limit), this would put a burden on the federal government of less than $200 million, a fraction of the money that conspiracy-minded liberals are willing to spend on “fixing” the voting machines.

You have to be a dunderhead to claim that voter fraud has never be an issue in our society.  As Seth and Likwid point out, a simple google makes a complete lie of such a claim.  Therefore, the GA law will fix a real problem.  It can be done with minimal effect on voter turnout.  There is no reason to not do it, except to protect the ignorant deadbeats on the lamb from the law, of course.

Here’s an interesting Republican Policy Committee paper on federal reforms, by the way.

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 07:08 pm
Avatar for Carrick

WOOF:

Where I live you have to show a voter reg card or some other ID and sign your name.  Your sig is checked against one on file. There are also reps of both parties, poll watchers who can challenge your sig/id.

What a pointless law!  Strike it from the books!  We all know that nobody ever attempts voter fraud. </sarcasm>

Seriously, WOOF.  The only distinguishable difference between your new law and your old is that the photo ID is a much more objective standard than challenging somebody’s signature.  Exactly how many of these people at the polls are trained to spot a fake ID after all, let alone screen each individual signature to make sure it’s the “real registered voter”.

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 07:08 pm
Avatar for Carrick

MI:

I find it interesting that those who believe that impersonation is rampant at our polling places generally are the same folks who think that the idea of fixing computer voting machines is ludicrous.

I find it interesting that you think this.  Exactly who are you referring to? Can you point to one person, or is this just speculation that they would be the same people?

For myself, I have no problem with dramatically improving the chain-of-custody on electronic voting machines.  [*] Nor with improving cross-state checking to prevent people from voting in multiple states.

People who think that their vote should count more than mine really piss the f**k out of me, period.  I could careless which party they belong to.

Carrick on August 8, 2005 at 07:09 pm
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

I find it humorous that Carl is claiming that there are no vote fraud issues while using a fake sig, and trying to deceive…

Telling, I think.

Seth Yantiss on August 8, 2005 at 08:08 pm
Avatar for moderninstances

I really don’t see what the big deal is with people using different logins.  The sudden resurrection of the use of pseudonyms in public discourse, brought on by and fostered by the internet, is reminiscent of the debates that people used to have hundreds of years ago, albeit in a more laborious and time-consuming media.  One may choose to use a certain pen name when writing about a particular subject.  And most of us use different names on different forums, exactly for that purpose.  I’ve gone by MrHyde and raggedstranger, and will use others, I’m sure. 

You know who it is, anyway, so why even worry about it.

moderninstances on August 8, 2005 at 09:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

"keep it simple” said, VOTER FRAUD DOES NOT HAPPEN AT THE POLLS.

How would you know?  That’s the beauty of voter fraud at the polls now.  It’s safe to get away with.

Please explain why it is a pain in the ass to you.

How about this: you’re just being a pain in the ass.  Why are you even still here to begin with?  Remember when you said that you “shall never set cursor in this domain again”?  Oh wait!  That wasn’t you, Mr. “keep it simple”.  That was some guy named “Carl B.” See where the pain in the ass part comes in?

It says a lot that you would think so.

Really?  What does it say?

What are you responding to in this forum?

What?

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 10:08 pm
Avatar for likwidshoe

You know who it is, anyway, so why even worry about it.

It’s just a pain in the ass.  Changing once or twice is one thing.  Carl just thinks he’s being cute.

likwidshoe on August 8, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

link #1: not voter impersonation; has to do with attempted application fraud and mail ins.

link #2 (from text):

“One of my employees can identify one person that did bring in the majority of those [registration] cards that we didn’t enter into our rolls because addresses didn’t exist,” said Bernalillo County Clerk Mary Herrera, explaining why her office disqualified several provisional ballots.

Provisional ballots are ballots that voters are allowed to cast if the voter’s name isn’t on the voter roll at their polling place.  Before they are counted, the county clerk verifies that the voter is actually registered.

Herrera says roughly 25 percent of the provisional ballots in Bernalillo County have been rejected as invalid.  Now that those in-lieu-of ballots have been sorted, the vote counting begins.

The problem is where? It is interesting what else you chose not to quote.

link #3: Nice link from 8 years ago...how’d that whole thing turn out? Not in favor of you presenting it here.

link #4: Again, registration. Pathetic attempt at that.

link #5: Again, registration...to wit (from text)
Bellman said he believes it’s an attempt to overload the elections office.

So, what is the problem that this law would fix? The part of the voting process to which there is no problem? VOTER FRAUD DOES NOT HAPPEN AT THE POLLS. Not even “conspiracy theorists” are crying voter impersonation. KEEP IT SIMPLE.

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

It’s just a pain in the ass. Changing once or twice is one thing. Carl just thinks he’s being cute.

Please explain why it is a pain in the ass to you. It says a lot that you would think so. What are you responding to in this forum?

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

now you’re off in loco land...forget I asked; I had no idea you could so easily get upset over something so trite. wait, yeah I did...anyway, sticking to the subject:

How would you know? That’s the beauty of voter fraud at the polls now. It’s safe to get away with.

It all boils down to ‘we just don’t know’. That’s why you think we should pass this law. We do know! It’s not happening! Voter fraud is happening in the computers, through vote suppression, etc. NOT AT THE POLLS. Why pass a law for a problem that doesn’t exist?

keep it simple on August 8, 2005 at 11:08 pm
Avatar for Seth Williams

simple: I see. You reject fraudulent registrations because...well, I don’t understand why actually.

In the 1st link, I showed you fraudulent registration takes place. Registering fraudulently is, actually, voter impersonation; it is a requisite first step to voting fraudulently.

In the 2nd link, I showed you that there have been fraudulently cast provisional ballots. Your objection seems to be based on the fact that it was caught. Logical fallacy, simple: I can’t prove to you that there is uncaught fraud, because if it were known about, it would be caught.

As to your statement about what I chose to quote or not, I provided a link to the original text so I didn’t have to post the whole article. I put in elipses to indicate I cut for brevity; I don’t believe the context was harmed, anyway I wasn’t hididng anything by giving the link.

In link 3, it was an instance of the House deciding not to act on it, NOT the same as no fraud. What does the timeliness of the example have to do with it anyway? 8 years is not that long in the cycle of elections. You stated that there were NO examples of voter fraud at the polling place. Now you complain that it’s not a recent enough example. Nice moving of the goalposts, pal. If fraud was possible and happened in the past, and the electoral rules haven’t changed since then, then fraud is possible now. What is possible is likely to be taken advantage of by people of low ethical standards if they see an advantage to be gained. That’s exactly what we have laws for.

In link #4, I showed you another example of fraudulent intent. I’ll reiterate my point that it’s hard to give an example of a sucessful electoral fraud, because if it is sucessful, it remains unknown. As to your statement of it being a pathetic attempt, I would agree. Of course, you’d expect that the more pathetic attempts at identity fraud would be caught.

In link #5, I showed registration fraud again. It amazes me that you can be shown all these examples of fraudulent registration (again: that IS voter impersonation) and still say that identity fraud with regards to elections is NOT a problem. I suppose people just fill out thousands of voter registrations for fun.

What can be proved is that people register fraudulently, people get caught trying to vote fraudulently, and there are plenty of cases of districts where there were more votes than eligible voters in the districts. Put it together and you have a the outlines of voter fraud. I’m not inclined to do a lot more research on a topic that you simply dismiss out of hand because...again, I can’t figure out how to end that sentence.

Seth Williams on August 8, 2005 at 11:08 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum

I think Carl is trying to rip a page from the Dem play book for Social Security… “THERE IS NO PROBLEM!”

Of course, even the dems had to eventually admit there is in fact a huge problem…

Sphagnum on August 9, 2005 at 03:08 am
Avatar for Carrick

Carl B appears to be asking for proof that uncaught voter impersonation fraud is occurring.  Even though plenty of examples have been given for people cheating, he argues against closing the door on one of the most difficult forms of voter fraud to catch.

The circularity of lefty thinking is sometimes mind-boggling. 

Carl B: Voter fraud is happening in the computers, through vote suppression, etc. NOT AT THE POLLS.

In your swamp fever hallucinations anyway.

I’m not even going to ask you for proof of computer fraud because you’ll give us some Area-51 level of conspiracy theory.  Rather than argue you on this, I would say that there is at least as much evidence for voter impersonation as there is for electronic voting machine fraud.  Nonetheless, I support voting machine reform to ...as I said… improve the chain of custody on the data.

I want all fraud stopped, period.  Currently there is a hole in the voting process wide enough to herd cattle through and you advocate doing nothing.  Your argument is so much cerebral mush given that there are such a lack of checks and balances that voter impersonation fraud is nearly impossible to catch.

Carrick on August 9, 2005 at 04:08 am
Avatar for keep it simple

Voter fraud is happening in the computers, through vote suppression, etc. NOT AT THE POLLS. Why pass a law for a problem that doesn’t exist? To obtian a legitimate photo ID you’d have to provide documentation such as your birth certificate that many poor people don’t have to begin with. Also, many state’s photo ID’s expire and would have to be renewed through the same process. In some states they expire after four years. You’d have to repeat every time you voted. Why complicate the ONE part of the voting process that nobody’s calling foul? Why are you up in arms about this but not about the widespread fraud that people ARE complaining about, in great numbers I might add, via computer registration/votes and polling machines?

keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 09:08 am
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

Carl, Since you seem to be a simpleton…

Voter fraud is happening in the computers, through vote suppression, etc. NOT AT THE POLLS.

This is Simply NOT TRUE.  There ARE problems at the polls.  Convicted felons registering to vote, more votes than people… etc… these are examples of vote fraud.  If it is not caught in the polling places, then it is because there is no procedure to catch the fraud at the polling booth, not because it doesn’t happen. 

My belief is that you LIKE voter fraud because fraudulent votes tend to go for the candidate that you support.  In my world-view, you oppose the anti-fraud legislation because it’s becoming your sides only hope for power.

Here in Florida, I had to show my license when I went to my polling precinct.  I have NO PROBLEM WITH THAT!  Verifying my license allows my vote to be relevant.  Allowing dead, illegal alien, felon voters to register then vote depreciates the value of my vote.

Oh… you’re still an idiot… Changing your name doesn’t change that…

Seth Yantiss on August 9, 2005 at 09:09 am
Avatar for Carrick

Seth:

Here in Florida, I had to show my license when I went to my polling precinct. I have NO PROBLEM WITH THAT! Verifying my license allows my vote to be relevant. Allowing dead, illegal alien, felon voters to register then vote depreciates the value of my vote.

Exactly my take too.  Except, I think they should provide free ID cards for the poor.  I don’t know how many people in practice would excluded from voting by not having an ID card, but if it’s free then I can’t seen how Carl B can argue anything.

There are plenty of laws on the books which are gratuitous in the case that Carl B were right (which he can’t PROVE of course).  I suppose we can expect roving bands of liberals to go around getting all of those century old do-nothing blue laws off state books.  BECAUSE OF THE HYPOCRISY.

Carrick on August 9, 2005 at 10:08 am
Avatar for Carrick

KIS cries:

why are you up in arms about this, but not about the voter fraud that people ARE complaining about in forms of mass suppression, computer votes/regs, etc?

Who said we were up in arms over it?  Seems like a perfectly reasonable law that will prevent prior frauds like the 1960 Chicago voter fraud racket from being repeated.  How can we make that any more clear?  And I am all for reforms necessary to prevent electronic fraud, and ballot box stuffing (I have a friend who observed that first hand in California), and so forth.

I think poor people should be able to vote without having to produce photo ID’s that they don’t have and would have a hassle getting/renewing/etc, and that all statistical indications say WILL knock a large number of poor potential voters off the mark.

How many poor people do you know that don’t have a photo ID card?

And your “statistical indications ... large number of poor” claim is a bunch of crap.  Show me a reference.

Carrick on August 9, 2005 at 10:08 am
Avatar for keep it simple

My belief is that you LIKE voter fraud because fraudulent votes tend to go for the candidate that you support. In my world-view, you oppose the anti-fraud legislation because it’s becoming your sides only hope for power.

Now THAT is idiotic.

so again...why are you up in arms about this, but not about the voter fraud that people ARE complaining about in forms of mass suppression, computer votes/regs, etc? Is it because the most prominently voiced complaints with the largest piles of evidence in such matters are directed toward the outcomes of the candidate on your “side” of the overall coin? I don’t give a flip who’s running against who in this matter; I think poor people should be able to vote without having to produce photo ID’s that they don’t have and would have a hassle getting/renewing/etc, and that all statistical indications say WILL knock a large number of poor potential voters off the mark. It is a complication of a process that nobody is complaining as being the source of the problem the law claims it will fix.

keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 10:09 am
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

Except, I think they should provide free ID cards for the poor.

I have no problem with that.  I think signing the waiver is fine.

An additional benefit is that people who decide to register days before the election will have a harder time doing so… I think a lot of the problems with the previous elections were the 12th hour registration drives.  If you don’t even know that the election is coming up… why should you get to vote? 

By the way, there is NOTHING in the constitution that guarantees a vote to anyone.  If you are not informed, I don’t think you should vote.  I know too many people who simply look for the (R) or the (D) rather than getting info on the candidate.  That is a REALLY bad way to vote.

Seth Yantiss on August 9, 2005 at 10:09 am
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

but not about the voter fraud that people ARE complaining about in forms of mass suppression, computer votes/regs, etc?

Yes yes, and NONE of the claims appear to be truthful.  Long lines and lack of voting machines were reported and found to be true… but no one has shown computer fraud to have happened.  Nor was the “disenfranchisement” claim shown to be valid.

But here’s something that might surprise you.  The poor would not be as effected by this bill as the rich… you see, the rich have less time on their hands than the poor do.  They are out there WORKING!

If you are too poor to afford the time to get an ID then *I* don’t want you to vote anyway.

Seth Yantiss on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for Da Truth

A law like that in Illinois would instantly turn it Red and save us from the People’s Republic of Daley. And all they’d have to do is give up a couple 40s....

Da Truth on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for keep it simple

Who said we were up in arms over it?

‘zactly, nobody is except through draft of this law. It’s a law that doesn’t need to be. I’ve met countless poor people without valid photo ID’s.

keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for Carrick

KIS:

’ve met countless poor people without valid photo ID’s

Countless???  Where do you live? Perhaps, Rub al Khali?

Carrick on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for keep it simple
keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for keep it simple

But here’s something that might surprise you. The poor would not be as effected by this bill as the rich… you see, the rich have less time on their hands than the poor do. They are out there WORKING!

If you are too poor to afford the time to get an ID then *I* don’t want you to vote anyway.

yeah, *you* have issues.

Yes yes, and NONE of the claims appear to be truthful

You’ve already decided there’s no truth to them. So, about this useless law...?

keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 11:08 am
Avatar for likwidshoe

"keep it simple” said, Voter fraud is happening in the computers, through vote suppression, etc. NOT AT THE POLLS.

That’s a nice tactic Carl.  Just deny that there is a problem despite all of the evidence to the contrary.

Anyways...thanks for showing us once again that you are not a serious person grounded in reality.

likwidshoe on August 9, 2005 at 12:08 pm
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

No, there is not truth to the claims of disenfranchisement.

If someone is too poor to get a license or a free state ID, then they should not vote.  They don’t have enough intelligence to make an informed choice. 

I bolded “too poor” because the ID is FREE if you don’t have the cash… So it has nothing to do with money, but would have to do with personal DRIVE.  If you don’t have the motivation to get an ID so you can vote… DON’T.

Not everyone is informed enough to make a decision on everything.

If you owned a store and the fate of the store was dependent upon a vote, wouldn’t you want the people voting to have at least a SMALL CLUE about the issue???  Nah, I guess you wouldn’t.  Let the chips fall where they may, right?

Seth Yantiss on August 9, 2005 at 12:09 pm
Avatar for keep it simple

Not everyone is informed enough to make a decision on everything.

Many would say this about you. Should we consider your voice moot? The analogy is lame, stick to the matter at hand.

keep it simple on August 9, 2005 at 12:09 pm
Avatar for WOOF

the rich have less time on their hands than the poor do. They are out there WORKING!

LOL
That would be the Paris Hilton section of the electorate?
Are they voting at the Palm Beach, Palm Springs or Aspen residence?
WOOF on August 9, 2005 at 12:09 pm
Avatar for Sphagnum

Carl/Baghdad Bob/Simplicity~

I have a perfect example of voter fraud being a problem AT THE POLLS.  Myself!

I voted in San Jose, CA.  I then moved to Sacramento, CA.  I got reminders to go vote from both the Santa Clara County (San Jose) and Sacramento County offices.  So you see, perpetuating voter fraud is so easy at the polls I can do it unintentionallly.

If I had to show my ID at San Jose and it had my Sac address on it, something fishy would have been realized, at least its a possibility, and therefore I would have been hindered in my attempt to vote multiple times.

Sphagnum on August 9, 2005 at 02:08 pm
Avatar for Seth Yantiss

Carl,

Many would say this about you.

Yup, I 100% agree with that statement, they would be correct.  I can not, could not hope to, nor have the ridiculous notion that I could know EVERYTHING about EVERYTHING.  I don’t think I know 1% of the information that is available about human history, let alone the sciences.  I do not pretend to think I know more than you.  I just think that you do not rationalize data in the same way that I do.  You have a logic loop somewhere in that neural-network of yours that is shorting out the “reasoning” centers of your brain. 

Should we consider your voice moot?

By not securing voting from fraud, by not counting military votes, by playing politics with the process, too many voices have been made moot. 

But, to answer your question in the context of the conversation.  I am a taxpayer.  I do not “get back” from the government each year.  I pay SS taxes for the whole year, I pay income wage tax, property tax, sales tax, Medicare/medicate, and I help pay for the embedded tax in all of the products I buy.  I help fund this country.  I deserve a vote.  For those who cannot get their sorry asses to the DL or DMV to pick up an ID… they relinquish their vote. 

I have OFTEN tried to think of ways that we could test potential voters prior to them voting.  I have no reasonable ideas on how to do this though…

Seth Yantiss on August 9, 2005 at 05:08 pm
Avatar for Say Anything » Groups File Lawsuit Against G

[...] Its absolutely amazing to me how obtuse these people are. As I’ve pointed out before, Georgia’s voter ID law is very simple. If you want to register to vote you must show a state-issued identification card. If you don’t have one you must shell out ten bucks and get one. If you can’t afford one, they’ll give you one for free. To hear some of the groups listed above tell it you’d think that Georgia were going to start setting up obstacle courses in front of voter registration areas, but that’s just not true. [...]

Avatar for Say Anything » Judge Blocks Georgia Voter ID

[...] This despite the fact that the law, as written, allows citizens who cannot afford identification to obtain one by simply signing an affidavit. [...]

Evidence of the “never been a problem” problem:

The investigation discovered more than 300 noncitizens had registered to vote in Bexar County, some as far back as the mid-1990s, and that 41 of them had actually cast a ballot.

likwidshoe on August 11, 2008 at 04:54 am
Page 1 of 1        

Post a Comment


Before commenting, please recite:

Grant me the serenity to ignore the trolls,
the courage to debate with honest opponents,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Name   
Email   
URL   
Human?
  
 

Upload Image    

Remember my personal information

Notify me of follow-up comments?

Note: Notifications will only be sent to confirmed email addresses.

    

By submitting your comment you agree to our terms of service.