Say Anything Blog

Now that they can’t do that stuff in the games I hope they don’t find the need to do it in real life.

This should have gone under the banned video game post.  Don’t know what happened, sorry!

I don’t see what the big deal is.  During the revolution, we WERE insurgents, we DID use the tactics of terror, and it WAS a rebellion.  Pretty much the same as in Iraq.

But DON’T try to call them Freedom Fighters, because that’s NOT what they’re after.  Therein lies the difference.

I don’t see what the big deal is. During the revolution, we WERE insurgents, we DID use the tactics of terror, and it WAS a rebellion. Pretty much the same as in Iraq.

I’d have to disagree with you Marty on pretty much all of this.

1) American soldiers fought in recognized military units, when possible they wore uniform etc.  As such they were rebel soldiers.
2) The Iraqi nationals involved in the insurgency are insurgents, which basically means that they don’t wear recognizable uniforms, they use non-military targets like hospitals, mosques and schools to fight out of, et.  This is a distinction with a difference.
3) The foreign fighters are not insurgents since they are not part of the indigenous population.  Man for man, they are also the most lethal towards the Iraqi civilian population.  Pretty much the only reasonable labels (other than foreign fighters) is terrorists or “brain-dead pawns of Islamofacists”
4) The use of nonconventional tactics against a military unit (including IEDs) is not terrorism, any more than ambushing a British patrol in the forest is.
5) The use or threat of use of terror against a civilian population is terrorism. If you can find any document demonstrating a systematic use of terrorism by the American rebels please produce it.  There is no question that the Iraqi insurgents systematically target civilian populations.  This is another distinction with a difference
6) Of course, the US Revolutionary Was constitutes a rebellion.  I am not sure that the Iraqi insurgency qualifies.  To me a rebellion signifies an organized military opposition with a well defined government to replace the seated one in the case of victory.  There is no cohesive central governance, no “rebel lands”, no “rebel army”.  Doesn’t seem to me to be a rebellion.
7) I think “freedom fighter” is one of those useless terms.  It begs the question “freedom from what”?  Too jargony for me.

If you want to prove me wrong, point to a systematic campaign of terror practiced by the American rebels against the civilian population.  Let’s start by discussing any example of a act of terror.  Any beheading of civilian hostages?  Any murdering school children because they were accepting candy from British troops?

1) sorta like a football team, and that helps make it okay.

2) count the dead civilians and blown up schools, churches, civilian homes and businesses...from “our” guns…

3) what hoppent to alls the injuns? wait, by “indigenous” you must mean not including them in any way shape or form.

4) yeah, it’s much more civilized to push a button and let the bombs and missiles do all the killing for you. And why not if you’ve got billions of dollars to pump into the technology?

5) like carpet bombing the streets and cities, having soldiers on every corner who have the self instilled power to order everybody around, promising that your way of life will soon be their way of life…

6) rules of war, eh? well, even you’re not sure of this one. Think about it and make up your mind, since everything else is so black and white with ya.

7) finicky over the nomenclature, but everything else remains the same....

Carrick,

What about what our rebels did to loyalists during the American revolution?

In areas under Patriot control, they were subject to confiscation of property and even tar and feathering or worse. They could be arrested for being loyal to the British, some were even blackmailed, whipped, abused, threatened, and attacked by mobs of Revolutionaries.

I think that could be considered terrorism.  I’m not saying that the Iraqi insurgents are the same as our founding fathers, but to say there aren’t any similarities is a lie.  What made our revolution so different was the fact that we were overthrowing a foreign and oppressive government and had a strong majority support from our locals.

And as holier than thou pointed out, we did use biological terrorism against innocent Native American people.

Two wrongs don’t equal a right, guys.  If America has used unsavory tactics in the past (and I’m not really prepared to get into that argument right now) it hardly exonerates the head chopping and suicide bombing tactics the terrorists use.

There’s also a question of scope.  Decapitating a bound hostage can hardly be compared to whippings.  Suicide bombings can hardly be compared to tar-and-featherings.  They’re just not the same thing.

And keep in mind that the American revolutionaries were fighting for freedom and democracy.  The terrorists are fighting for Islamo-fascism.  That’s worth considering as well.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

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The obvious, undeniable difference between our Founding Fathers and the terrorists around this world is that our Founding Fathers were fighting for a freedom that would create the greatest nation to ever exsist on this earth (a nation, btw, that has done more good for the world than any superpower in history). Meanwhile, the terrorists are fighting to restore dictators, murderous regimes, and in general can be said to fight AGAINST freedom whereever it shows it’s head.

Terrorists=Bad
Founding Fathers=Good

This is undeniable to any reasonable person…

The small pox infected blankets given to Native Americans by the British and Americans. The only proof I have is what is written in history books.

That is the first time that I’ve ever heard that it was the Americans.  I’ve only ever heard that British soldiers supposedly gave the Indians smallpox infected blankets at Fort Pitt in 1763.  In any regard, it is just a story from one guy and has never been proven.

Care to back this claim up with proof?

The small pox infected blankets given to Native Americans by the British and Americans.  The only proof I have is what is written in history books.  Although I must admit that there is current speculation among some historians that such attacks were planned but never actually carried out.

Decapitating a bound hostage can hardly be compared to whippings. Suicide bombings can hardly be compared to tar-and-featherings. They’re just not the same thing.

I agree that the tactics of the Iraqi insurgents are far worse.  But the fact is all of those tactics are still considered terrorism and are wrong no matter how you look at them.  Most rational people will see the differences.  But no one can claim that our own rebels were devoid of any wrong-doings.

Two wrongs don’t equal a right, guys. If America has used unsavory tactics in the past (and I’m not really prepared to get into that argument right now) it hardly exonerates the head chopping and suicide bombing tactics the terrorists use.

I don’t think anyone is arguing against that point.

Andrew said, And as holier than thou pointed out, we did use biological terrorism against innocent Native American people.

Care to back this claim up with proof?

The more difficult comparisons are between the Iraqi insurgents and, say, 1954-1962 Algerian fighters.

From what i understand, the smallpox blankets incident happened once or twice by a few unscrupulous people, and was never a policy of the government.  Clearly that was a war crime, but it bears little resemblance to the way it is used by the “hate america first” crowd.

Carrick, i will concede to your post—well put.

Sluggo, thanks for the book reccomendation, i’ve placed it on hold at the library.  Oh, and BTW—when did smallpox “enter the human genome” exactly? 

By the time the British gave smallpox infected blankets to the native indians, smallpox had already been introduced.  Smallpox is passed from the horse to humans, and it was the Spaniards who first introduced the horse to the Americas, decades before the English arrived.  By the time the British came along, most of the indigenous populations were already resistant to smallpox.  After smallpox had wiped out 20+ million of course. (Source- Guns Germs and Steel by Jerrod Diamond, PhD in Genocide studies at UCLA)

Why let facts get in the way of hatred.  Right holy and Andrew? 

As long as we are pointing fingers.  Why don’t we blame the Chinese for introducing the horse to Europe and killing 100 million Europeans in the ensuing smallpox epidemics.  Hey, lets blame the horse too, because if the hore did not exist, then smallpox would never have entered the human genome.

Give it up holier and Andrew.  All you can do is learn from history.  Don’t seek to repeat it because you feel justice is necessary.  Otherwise you are no better than the ignorant humans of the past.

Sluggo,

Why let facts get in the way of hatred. Right holy and Andrew?

What hatred are you referring too?  If you are implying that I hate America, then just stop right there.  I don’t need to talk to you.  If you are talking about the Bush administration and Republicans, you don’t know me very well.  I’m a registered Republican and voted for Bush in the past election.

As long as we are pointing fingers. Why don’t we blame the Chinese for introducing the horse to Europe and killing 100 million Europeans in the ensuing smallpox epidemics. Hey, lets blame the horse too, because if the hore did not exist, then smallpox would never have entered the human genome.

First off, I admitted that I may have been mistaken on the small pox issue.  Secondly, there’s a difference, intentionally giving people small pox infected blankets is evil, and accidently spreading the disease is not.

Give it up holier and Andrew. All you can do is learn from history. Don’t seek to repeat it because you feel justice is necessary. Otherwise you are no better than the ignorant humans of the past.

I have no clue how this relates to anything I wrote.  How am I repeating history?

I don’t support the Iraqi insurgents and I don’t feel their tactics are justified.  Just because I’m critical of America does not mean I hate it.  America may be the greatest country, but that doesn’t mean we aren’t guilty of injustices and there isn’t room for improvement.

Andrew:

In areas under Patriot control, they were subject to confiscation of property and even tar and feathering or worse. They could be arrested for being loyal to the British, some were even blackmailed, whipped, abused, threatened, and attacked by mobs of Revolutionaries.

Actually, the “they” are British sympathizers.  If you are actively helping the other side, and you are a civilian, that makes you a legitimate military target.  Recall my definition of terrorism was

The use or threat of use of terror against a civilian population is terrorism.

Thus, none of this terrorism, since it is selectively to individuals who are identified (justly or otherwise) as a threat. Even today, we still selectively put people in jail, take away their liberty, and even execute them… but it’s still not terrorism.

HTT makes a series of generally erroneous non sequitors in an attempt to build one good straw man from a series of poorly researched facts.  Point of fact: We were talking about the Revolutionary War and whether American Revolutionaries could reasonably be called “terrorists”.  Trust me, I have never doubted that pinheads like you consider the currentUS military (and Karl Rove) to be terrorists.  When you learn to think on your own, I’ll take you a lot more seriously.

Nice.  That is the longest non sequitor I’ve seen on SA.

rules of war, eh? well, even you’re not sure of this one. Think about it and make up your mind, since everything else is so black and white with ya.

I have no Earthly idea what you are talking about here.  I never said anything about “rules of war”.

finicky over the nomenclature,

DRUDGE NEWSFLASH!!!!  SCIENTISTS FIND WORDS HAVE MEANING.  THE EXISTENCE OF MORE THAN 200,000 WORDS IN ENGLISH LEXICON NOW EXPLAINED!  (Developing...)

Andrew, I’m not picking on you… really.  You say:

First off, I admitted that I may have been mistaken on the small pox issue. Secondly, there’s a difference, intentionally giving people small pox infected blankets is evil, and accidently spreading the disease is not.

Only if giving blankets to Indians spreads the disease… which Sluggo correctly pointed out that it does not.  Secondly, you will find a hard time obtaining evidence that British officers in the 1700’s knew enough about the spread of infectious diseases:  In truth, they like the medical world at the time knew nothing… That’s why doctors at the time didn’t wash their surgical tools between operations or have any idea of proper sterilization procedures.

Anyway, we were talking about American Revolutionaries weren’t we?

Don’t get so defensive Andrew.  My hatred comment was more directed to Holier, than you.  I should not have included you. Sorry for the misunderstanding.  That being said, it is humanity which is guilty of injustices against itself.  To single out one group or nation for blame seems shortsighted and comes across like hatred. 

Marty, I would need to look up the exact date, but I believe smallpox coincides with the domestication of equines 50,000 years ago.  Makes you wonder why people left Asia for the Americas about the same time.  I guess smallpox, eventually caught up with them in 1492.

Sluggo, I just wanted to comment that sometimes Andrew will ask questions because he is interested in the answers, and not necessarily because he has a set belief on the matter.

I should probably have let Andrew say this, but he is welcome to tell me I am full of shit, if he really believes that American Revolutionaries are terrorist thugs.  Nothing wrong with asking questions, I always say, except when you get executed for the crime that is.

I’ll echo Carrick and say that Andrew, like a lot of other commenters here, often just likes to play the “Devil’s Advocate” for the sake of discussion.  Sometimes, as is often the case with communicating over the internet, things can get confused.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Secondly, you will find a hard time obtaining evidence that British officers in the 1700’s knew enough about the spread of infectious diseases: In truth, they like the medical world at the time knew nothing… That’s why doctors at the time didn’t wash their surgical tools between operations or have any idea of proper sterilization procedures.

Ahhhh...that’s true.  I hadn’t thought of that before.  I guess it wasn’t until the 1800’s that disease transmission started to be understood.  I think Semmelweis was the first to discover it (with his introduction of chlorine to disinfect tools), but it wasn’t accepted until Lister.

Actually, the “they” are British sympathizers. If you are actively helping the other side, and you are a civilian, that makes you a legitimate military target. Recall my definition of terrorism was

No doubt many of them actively helped the British.  But I had heard about patriots doing these things to people who merely refused to fight or get involved in the revolution because they were still loyal to the crown.  I could be wrong and you seem to be much more the “history buff” than me, so I’ll take you’re word on it.

Andrew will ask questions because he is interested in the answers, and not necessarily because he has a set belief on the matter.

I guess that’s a good way to sum it up.

I should probably have let Andrew say this, but he is welcome to tell me I am full of shit, if he really believes that American Revolutionaries are terrorist thugs.

I don’t think American Revolutionaries are terrorists.  I was just merely pointing out that they probably weren’t saints either.

Andrew says: 

I don’t think American Revolutionaries are terrorists. I was just merely pointing out that they probably weren’t saints either.

No argument there.

finicky over the nomenclature, BUT EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME!!! newsflash...carrick just don’t geddit.

What group of humans in the history of our species could ever be described as “saints?”

On a totally unrelated note, I was recently reading a historical biography of the American revolution and learned that some deserters of the American army were routinely decapitated as punishment for fleeing.  Many in the army considered it a distasteful practice and it seemed to be almost exclusively employed by Corporal “Light Horse” Harry Lee, but it happened.  And it was generally accepted, if not exactly encouraged.

It just goes to show how much we, as a society, have changed.  What was acceptable military practice 200 years ago isn’t acceptable today.  Its hard to compare tactics from different eras, just as its hard to compare baseball players from different eras.  Barry Bonds is often spoken of in the same breath as Babe Ruth, but are they really comparable?  Babe Ruth, for several seasons, not only hit more home runs than any other single player in the league but also hit more home runs then the total hit by all the players on any given team in the majors.

Consider another example: Abraham Lincoln was a visionary for civil rights in his era.  Would his opinions about blacks and civil rights in general be considered very enlightened today?  No.  But compared to his contemporaries Lincoln was as progressive as it got.

So, basically, I just don’t think its fair to compare the situation with Islamic terrorism today and the situation surrounding the American revolution of well over 200 years ago.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

"get a grip” needs to get one:

BUT EVERYTHING ELSE REMAINS THE SAME!!!

Exactly.  The entire commentary was a random compendium of unrelated insults slung at the current US military.  From the argument you put forward, American Revolutionaries still aren’t terrorists and liberals are still calling modern American soldiers terrorists.

Nothing has changed.

ja carrick, I’m aware of the “debate”...I just can’t believe there are folks like yourself who mull over the admitted pointlesness of it all. Cannon fodder for those who will do nothing about anything but want to feel otherwise. You elect to become a blip in the big PR picture; a bona fide armchair politician.

So, basically, I just don’t think its fair to compare the situation with Islamic terrorism today and the situation surrounding the American revolution of well over 200 years ago.

I agree that drawing comparisons between eras is difficult, if not impossible.  But also keep in mind that Islamic and middle-eastern culture hasn’t seemed to change much since its beginnings.  I’m not saying any of that justifies their actions.  If anything, its just more reason for us to be over there.

What group of humans in the history of our species could ever be described as “saints?”

Well none of course, as I’m sure you’re well aware of.  I just find it amusing that many people seem to view our founding fathers as all-knowing and that every action they took was justified.  History has even been twisted to make our revolutionaries look better. 

Take the Boston Tea Party for example.  We all grew up learning that it occured because the British imposed the Townsend Act which sky-rocketed the price of tea.  But in actuality the colonists usually drank smuggled tea that went untaxed.  In fact, John Hancock was a big Dutch tea smuggler.  To undercut American smugglers, the British passed the Tea Act, which eliminated taxes on British tea, and sold their supplies well below what the smugglers were charging.  Smugglers responded the only way they could, by force.

Sorry for that bit of trivia.  I kind of went off topic a bit.

Wahabists want to create a world where women are property, adolescent boys are prostitutes, and anyone who does not drop to their kness and vow to be their slaves is dead. Exactly how does this make them"Patriots"?

ja carrick, I’m aware of the “debate”…I just can’t believe there are folks like yourself who mull over the admitted pointlesness of it all. Cannon fodder for those who will do nothing about anything but want to feel otherwise. You elect to become a blip in the big PR picture; a bona fide armchair politician.

It’s a fucking debate.  We all like arguing and talking about politics and thinking about the issues.  What are you here for?

You have an inflated view of your own self importance Carl.  “Get a grip” indeed.

I have no such view likwidshoe...I don’t come here to make friends or maintain good report. Mebby you do, as is evident by your snide say-nothings in response to what you call my snide say-nothings. Mebby muslims stole your girlfriend, that’s why you’re such a racist fuck. Get a clue or get over it; I’m just speaking my peace like everyone else, only I’m not in a room full of my peers. Got the balls to do the same?

I have no such view likwidshoe…I don’t come here to make friends or maintain good report. Mebby you do, as is evident by your snide say-nothings in response to what you call my snide say-nothings.

You totally missed the point.

Mebby muslims stole your girlfriend, that’s why you’re such a racist fuck.

I didn’t know that Muslims were a race.  Thanks for the info Carl.

Get a clue or get over it; I’m just speaking my peace like everyone else...

No. You’re just being an unremittant jackass.  You’re not here in good faith.

...only I’m not in a room full of my peers. Got the balls to do the same?

Yes. And I do.  But I sure as hell won’t tell you where those places are.

You’re not here in good faith.

nope, I’m here with an understanding that you and like minded constituents are in true faith of an oppressive, exclusive corporate government. And as I and many others see it, most are blind to the fact because media conditioning works. I’m not active in politics at all really...but what better place to tell it like I see it than in a room full of people who I see support the problem?

Yes. And I do. But I sure as hell won’t tell you where those places are.

why you lyin’? and what’s with your snide say nothings? Get a clue or get over it.

why you lyin’? and what’s with your snide say nothings? Get a clue or get over it.

Piss off Carl.

Carl, why are you here? Mommy not hug you enough? The other reindeer wouldn’t let you play? What, exactly, is your malfunction? We all are curious.

I’m not sure what Likwidshoe and Carl/Carql/HolierThanThou/GetAGrip have against each other, but you guys should really just get over it.  Seems like every other thread turns into a pissing contest between you two…

why do you keep calling me carl? listen to yourselves...in the very least I’m saying SOMETHING in a room full of people who I know won’t like what I have to say, yet I believe it to be the truth. Can’t handle my presence in your little forum support group? You’re well on your way to being grumpy old men if you’re not there already.

This thread is comparing current anti-establishment militants to people two hundred years ago. Sure, call them terrorists, doesn;t mnake a difference and I’d agree that’s what they are. I responded, point per point I might add, to a very shallow list of perspective comparisons...adding that you could look at current “freedom fighters” of the united states military under the same light. To wit all you can do is respond as above? Should I brush up on my encyclopaedic paragraphing skills under the assumption that you can’t make heads or tails of anything I said? I’m flattered I guess, thanks. I’ve stumped you to the point of verbal aggression. Grumpy old men. You’d think with the government and hte military and the corporations and the whole scene all being so great and glorious as you constantly defend, that you’d have no reason to be upset at these “moonbats” that keep telling you otherwise. There’s nothing to their story, they’re crazy. But the majority of this forum is based on complaint. Sounds like you guys are the ones who need to get out and play more reindeer games, you’re sure upset over nothing.

Sorry carl, I am not upset at all. Just want to know what your problem is.

"get a grip” sputtered out, I’ve stumped you to the point of verbal aggression.

Oh yes.  Calling me a “racist fuck”.  Brilliant dude...way to stump ‘em!

Carl B:

ja carrick, I’m aware of the “debate”…I just can’t believe there are folks like yourself who mull over the admitted pointlesness of it all. Cannon fodder for those who will do nothing about anything but want to feel otherwise. You elect to become a blip in the big PR picture; a bona fide armchair politician.

How to know when you need immediate help:  When you start posting this type of inane prattle.

Once again:  Nothing has changed.

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