Say Anything Blog

It is the employee thing, partly, but it’s also the way they beat up on suppliers. They use their market power to force price reductions down suppliers’ throats. That’s why a significant (I think it’s 1 in 8) portion of the trade imbalance with China is due to WalMart.

And it has nothing to do with white trash - at least not for me. We’ll do Target, Home Depot, Costco and BJ’s - but not WalMart.

Actually, we did make an exception when I was unemployed and really needed to conserve cash. But ever since we got our finances in order… not a single trip.

There was a good article (I think it was about a year ago) in either Business 2.0 or FastCompany about WalMart and its suppliers. It claimed that their heavihandedness was the primary cause of Vlasic Pickles going into bankruptcy, for example.

Huh.  Well I can say is that Wal-Mart is the primary cause of me being able to buy more stuff every month and stay within my budget.  Supposedly my local Wal-Mart is also going to open up a filling station and pass along low-cost savings on gas as well.  If they can ever get the idea past the protectionist politicians who are no-doubt being well paid by the North Dakota petroleum sellers.

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When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

The real gripe with walmart is they contribute as little to american manufacturing as possible ...and at the same time treat their employees as low wage expendables. If you work at walmart, you’re scraping for spare cash at the end of each month. 80% of everything in walmart was manufactured in china, and in something like 7 years they expect the number to be in the 90-percentile. If more americans were making the things in their store and being paid proper for it, more americans would be able to afford the slightly higher prices they would “have to charge”...which is in itself somewhat of a myth because the profit formula doesn’t allow a downslope to the guys in the big chairs, and they’d really be the ones feeling the brunt of hiring people in the US to supply their store.

The real gripe with walmart is they contribute as little to american manufacturing as possible...

American manufacturers have priced themselves out of the market.  I don’t blame Wal-Mart for that reality.

…and at the same time treat their employees as low wage expendables.

Not exactly true, but at the same time - aren’t they?

If you work at walmart, you’re scraping for spare cash at the end of each month.

Life lesson here - get some employment skills that are worth more.  Don’t expect to make a lot of money running the cash register and stocking shelves.

If more americans were making the things in their store and being paid proper for it...

What is “being paid proper” and who determines it?

Proper pay is not 14 cents an hour for chinese child labor.

“priced themselves out of the market” is exactly the problem...as ethnocentric about the US as you seem to be, I’m surprised you don’t support a stronger push for american made products, or rather for corporations that rely on american money to give back in production money. Retail and handling labor pales in comparative infrastructure strength when it comes to citizens having money to spend..again the only ones taking the hit are the corporate fat cats...there would be fewer of them vs. diverse american small business. Sell american, buy american...the money stays local. People as individuals are not capitalist, they are survivalist (your “survival of the fittest” takes on government/business architecture, as well as a lack of empathy toward poor blue collar laborers are shining examples of the extreme). It is legal, but it is not right..."in my opinion”.

You dork…read your blogs, read your blogs…become a veritable webster of the right wing dictionary…then talk like you read the news or look shit up on your own. Look up some free trade counterpoints and start reading…you sound as dumb as a brick, sorry.

I sound as dumb as a brick?  You are the king of irony Carl. Way to turn a civil conversation into juvenile mudslinging. I guess it was easier than addressing what I talked about.

Proper pay is not 14 cents an hour for chinese child labor.

If that’s even true.  In any regard, one mistake people make is to apply the same standards, be they pay or whatever, to another country.  What some often miss is that the people in those other countries are making more money than they have ever seen before and the working standards at their place of employment are often legions above the other options in their area.  There is a reason that “chinese child labor” is working for 14 cents an hour and that is because it is the best option.

“priced themselves out of the market� is exactly the problem…as ethnocentric about the US as you seem to be, I’m surprised you don’t support a stronger push for american made products, or rather for corporations that rely on american money to give back in production money.

And how would I do that?  Tell these companies that “even though American made products are more expensive and come with a list of demands that you won’t find elsewhere, you should buy them anyways”?  Or are you suggesting that I should shell out more money than I really have to, thereby facilitating a market in which the American made goods are only surviving based upon my generosity?  No thanks.

Retail and handling labor pales in comparative infrastructure strength when it comes to citizens having money to spend..again the only ones taking the hit are the corporate fat cats…there would be fewer of them vs. diverse american small business.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.  I think you are saying that retail and “handling labor” pales in comparison to the strength of a manufacture economy.  I tend to agree with that sentiment.  But after that, I’m not sure what you are saying.

People as individuals are not capitalist, they are survivalist...

Survivalists want the best product at the lowest possible price.  Capitalism with its “survival of the fittest” competition most often affords this.  So in the end, people are capitalistic even if they don’t recognize it.

(your “survival of the fittest� takes on government/business architecture, as well as a lack of empathy toward poor blue collar laborers are shining examples of the extreme)

I don’t have a “lack of empathy toward poor blue collar laborers” simply because I recognize that manning a cash register doesn’t produce a lot of wealth.  The pay should be in line with the output of work. That’s just reality.  No need to get emotional over it or claim that it is a “shining example of the extreme”.

It is legal, but it is not right…�in my opinion�.

What is “right” in your world?  So far it seems to be 1) paying people more than their work is worth; and 2) “buying American” even though you have yet to demonstrate that “the money stays local” has any demonstrable benefit or has any demonstrable increase in wealth.

likwidshoe: “...If that’s even true.”

You dork...read your blogs, read your blogs...become a veritable webster of the right wing dictionary...then talk like you read the news or look shit up on your own. Look up some free trade counterpoints and start reading...you sound as dumb as a brick, sorry.

You don’t know what you’re talking about, you said so, and that is why I can resort to no more than calling you for the pseudo-newsie that you are. You support a company that is all for chinese labor ethics? 90% of walmart’s stock is a huge number! Outsourcing saves america! YYAAAYYY!!! I understand...you want me to address your points, but they’re drawn and tired. I’d feel in much better company for conversation if you’d demonstrate reading up on what you preach. On occasions that I say “look it up yourself” you claim I’m the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I undertand you like blog-speak, that’s obvious...mebby you lack research skills, and that’s okay...but it doesn’t mean I have to like pointing everything out to you. Remember you called me a mudslinger next time you yell whoop whoop! and check your head if you can’t look past a little namecalling, it’s grade school both ways.

Next time you complain about illegal immigrants coming into this country and stripping us of our jobs and civil resources, remember that you support companies like walmart that are doing far more damage “legally”.

You don’t know what you’re talking about, you said so, and that is why I can resort to no more than calling you for the pseudo-newsie that you are.

Where did I say that Carl?  And even if I did say that somewhere, what gives you the right to start the petty bullshit?

I understand…you want me to address your points, but they’re drawn and tired.

Nice excuse.  The reality: you can’t (which is why you turned this conversation from a civil one into a namecalling one).

I’d feel in much better company for conversation if you’d demonstrate reading up on what you preach.

Example of me not doing that?  Come on Carl, you make these proclamations and then don’t back them up.

On occasions that I say “look it up yourself” you claim I’m the one who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Provide your own sources, it is as simple as that.

I undertand you like blog-speak, that’s obvious...

What the hell is “blog-speak”?  And why are we talking about it instead of the issue?  (I suspect I know the answer to that one as well...perhaps because you have nothing to say in regards to the issue?)

...mebby you lack research skills...

Mebby you just like talking out of your ass.

...but it doesn’t mean I have to like pointing everything out to you.

Please.  You give yourself way too much credit.  I’d suggest that you stop patting yourself on the back long enough to actually debate something, but I’m betting that it’s a useless suggestion.

Remember you called me a mudslinger next time you yell whoop whoop! and check your head if you can’t look past a little namecalling, it’s grade school both ways.

The question is: why did you start with the namecalling?  One minute we are talking about Wal-Mart and their practices and the next minute you’re calling me a “dork” and saying that I’m “as dumb as a brick”.  Noticeable absent was any explanation or argument.

Next time you complain about illegal immigrants coming into this country and stripping us of our jobs and civil resources, remember that you support companies like walmart that are doing far more damage “legally”.

Never once have I ever made the “they are taking our jobs” argument because it isn’t one that I buy.  I believe it is without merit.  As for your claim that Wal-Mart is “doing far more damage ‘legally’”, do you have proof?  Or are you just going to tell me to research it myself and call me some belittling name?

By definition, at some point, that leads to some level of job loss, either by forcing efficiencies or by forcing the outsourcing of operations.

On the flip side - someone making minimum wage can buy a nice microwave oven in less than a day.  Or a DVD player.  Or a whole host of other products that were much more expensive before Wal-Mart priced the market down.

I don’t have a problem with things being made in China - costs generally get driven down over time. Usually, however, it’s due to having to compete with others who are lower-cost.

WalMart, on the other hand, forces people to outsource to low-cost countries. How so? If you don’t meet my price, I’ll pull your items and put in your competitors. And, according to that article I mentioned, apparently they ask for price reductions on a regular basis. By definition, at some point, that leads to some level of job loss, either by forcing efficiencies or by forcing the outsourcing of operations.

I agree with Carl that I’m surprised that “Buy American” wasn’t the first thing from your lips.

I won’t even tell you to look it up, just call you some belittling name. Doofus. Go walmart! Go chinese labor laws! Yay outsourcing! Less made in america, more hecho en mexico!

~fin

Walmart means we all get “more” for less.  llkwidshoe is right, even if he has a bad picture.  Seriously dude, you need to upgrade that shit.

llkwidshoe is right, even if he has a bad picture. Seriously dude, you need to upgrade that shit.

Ha!  Damn...and I thought that one was okay… It’s an old picture though, I’ve been meaning to update it now that I’ve finally got a digital camera.

Starting from back here:
Carl says:

Proper pay is not 14 cents an hour for chinese child labor.

Likwid replies with a good point about relative standards.

If that’s even true. In any regard, one mistake people make is to apply the same standards, be they pay or whatever, to another country. What some often miss is that the people in those other countries are making more money than they have ever seen before and the working standards at their place of employment are often legions above the other options in their area. There is a reason that “chinese child labor� is working for 14 cents an hour and that is because it is the best option.

One point I’d like to add is that increasing the populations wealth and prosperity under a regime such as the current Chinese leadership would make the population MORE amiable to the traits and tactics that they currently use.

“priced themselves out of the market� is exactly the problem…as ethnocentric about the US as you seem to be, I’m surprised you don’t support a stronger push for american made products, or rather for corporations that rely on american money to give back in production money.

Have I read you wrong all this time Carl?  I though you were a liberal.  Where is the “no world boardersâ€? and “International Courtâ€? and “UN as the one world governmentâ€? talk?  Though, In Truth, I agree with your point in respect to governments that treat their people poorly and are aggressors in the world community.  (you might think this a disparagy considering the Iraq War (that I support), it’s not because I think that dictators should be taken out with impunity, preferably by their own people, but if ruled in order, as Iraq was with the UN, we should do so by force. 

And how would I do that? Tell these companies that “even though American made products are more expensive and come with a list of demands that you won’t find elsewhere, you should buy them anyways�? Or are you suggesting that I should shell out more money than I really have to, thereby facilitating a market in which the American made goods are only surviving based upon my generosity? No thanks.

To LikWid’s point, I will add that this type of market influence regulates what the people gain in relative prosperity.  There isn’t yet enough to go around for everyone to live like kings.  Someone has to do the work that goes on in the country.  But when the cost to produce, due to employee benefits, becomes exceptionally high, imports bring us back to reality.

(your “survival of the fittest� takes on government/business architecture, as well as a lack of empathy toward poor blue collar laborers are shining examples of the extreme) It is legal, but it is not right…�in my opinion�.

It may not seem, or feel “Rightâ€? Carl, but it’s the “Grown Upâ€? think to do.  You let each man (vernacular, don’t get on me, you psyco-feminasi’s) rise to the level that he wants.  The goal of a parent should be to see their child achieve to a level greater than their own… as a culture we should promote the development of the individual, inspire that drive and ambition, but not MANDATE it.  The problem that “Liberalsâ€? have is that they “Feelâ€? that the “Rightâ€? thing to do is to do FOR someone.  Most parents realize, at some point, that they have to let their kids “fly or dieâ€? (as it were).  This is just part of maturity, something that comes with age and time.

psyco-feminasi’s
And Durbin gets raked over the coals for referring to Nazis?  Or would he have been OK if he had spelled it with an “s”?

My problem with the Marts and the Depots is that it negatively alters the work experience for many people, in many intangible and tangible ways.  Would you rather punch in and out for lunch every day, or just say to your supervisor “Hey, I’ll be back in an hour”?  I used to go to the local hardware store with my dad every weekend when I was a kid, and we’d always get helped by the same guys.  It helped to foster a real sense of community for me.  That kind of attention and service just isn’t as possible in the warehouses, and they contribute to the further “individualisation” of our society.

My problem with the Marts and the Depots is that it negatively alters the work experience for many people, in many intangible and tangible ways. Would you rather punch in and out for lunch every day, or just say to your supervisor “Hey, I’ll be back in an hourâ€??

So what’s the solution, everybody works for a small business?  Everybody works for a mom & pop so they don’t have to punch a time clock?

C’mon, you’re smarter than that.

That kind of attention and service just isn’t as possible in the warehouses, and they contribute to the further “individualisationâ€? of our society.

What’s wrong with individualism?

You sound rather suspiciously like a socialist.

---

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Hmmm… I missed this post. 

That kind of attention and service just isn’t as possible in the warehouses, and they contribute to the further “individualisationâ€? of our society.

Wait, so the large bulk warehouse stores contribute to Individualism?????  Wha?  Putting more people into a place makes them more individual?  Really? 

Not that I think promoting individualism is bad, quite to the contrary.

psyco-feminasi’s

yup, I misspelled that, sorry.  I was joking, BTW.  I was making a joke regarding the Vernacular of the word “MAN” to mean “Human"… The extreme feminists hate the word “Man” used to describe people… thus the joke, you see?

By the way, did you notice the S in “individualisationâ€??  If you spelled it with a Z, would the statement still be moronic?  You betcha!

"Individualisation” and “Individualism” are not the same thing.  The latter is the belief in self-reliance and independence.  The former is a term used to describe the loss of communality in today’s American society, where the individual is less in touch with their literal community.  The causes of this phenomenon include the explosive growth of the internet (where people form virtual communities, and can know more about a person halfway around the world than they do about their next door neighbor), more entertainment opportunities in the home (why pay $8.50 for a movie at the theater when I can see it on my big screen with surround sound in my den), and the depersonalizing effect of big box retailing on commerce (like my hardware store example above).  See also James Howard Kunstler’s “The Geography of Nowhere,” in which he discusses the increasing homogeneity of the American landscape, and the loss of locality.  One may be an “individualist” and still desire a sense of community with one’s neighbors.

My observations do not make a judgment that this is good or bad in and of itself.  My opinion is that it’s detrimental to the sense of community that most of us wish to feel.

You sound rather suspiciously like a socialist.

She sounds, rather suspiciously, like JadeGold.