Say Anything Blog

A portion of Eric Muller’s statement:

[There is a French book which calls the attack an American-orchestrated affair.]

A book justifying 1930s Japanese militarism and expansionism at Pearl Harbor?

[There are quite a number of these that could be translated from Japanese into English.]

A book preaching the necessity or utility of displacing American Indians from ancestral lands at Wounded Knee?

[All one need do is look to the works of L. Frank Baum.]

Do you really believe that Manzanar is the right place for Ms. Malkin’s book to be available? Do you not understand that there might be a difference between a memorial site and a museum?

Well, well...by such logic, would Rob mind if Mein Kampf or David Irving’s book denying the Holocaust took place were sold at the Holocaust museum?

How about selling Ward Churchill’s essay at the 9/11 Ground Zero memorial?

Nice bit of moral relativism JG.

Nice bit of moral relativism JG.

It’s completely appropriate, Sluggo. Maglalang’s book is a piece of racist crap, having no basis in historical fact.  That’s it sold at Govt. site commemorating those American citizens wrongly detained is offensive.

It is racist crap, Carrick. Maglalang’s book uses the widely discredited thesis of a loser named Lowman (even Lowman’s editor admits much of Lowman’s research was shoddy) and ignores the historical record to make an argument that if internment of US citizens was once justified--why can’t we do it again?

It really doesn’t get more racist than that.

Michelle is the administrations consort and they are paying her off. That’s the way you do it.

“ the Bush administration’s decision to keep selling creationist literature at the Grand Canyon,thus giving the impression that creationism is approved of by the National Park Service”
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/121645.htm

JG says:

Maglalang’s book is a piece of racist crap, having no basis in historical fact.

That harangue aside, I happen to agree with JG that selling the book at Manazanar is completely inappropriate, especially without a thorough vetting of the claims made in the book first.

WOOF:  What would be utterly stupid would be selling creationism books at Dinosaur National Park.  That’d be a bit like selling Flat Earth Society books from the space station.

the theocracy will get to Dinosaur national Park , if they haven’t already.

“The Bush Administration has decided that it will stand by its approval for a book claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah’s flood rather than by geologic forces, according to internal documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER).”
http://www.valleyskeptic.com/PARK_SERVICE_STICKS_WITH_BIBLICAL_EXPLANATION_FOR_GRAND_CANYON.html

Minorities who tow the liberal line = valued victims.

Minorities who dissent from liberal orthodoxy = racist bigots.

The point that puts the lie to the whole internment issue is the thousands of Japanese-Americans who, even after internment and seizure of homes and businesses, joined the US military and served with distinction. Unlike you, you angry, self-loathing banna. No one should hate you, they should pity you for the total lack of manhood and honor you display at every opportunity. Your ancestors weep for you.  Woof, you should be more careful of the company you keep,Jgs kind always turn on their own. It is all they know.

The point that puts the lie to the whole internment issue is the thousands of Japanese-Americans who, even after internment and seizure of homes and businesses, joined the US military and served with distinction.

To the contrary, the fact Japanese-Americans served, fought and died for this country does not “put the lie” to the issue.  It makes the internment of these American citizens that much more repulsive.

Repulsive like those who would defend this racist policy.

Woof: Do you really believe everything you read?

Color me completely skeptical on this story.  Anyway, if the creationists wish to run the “Noah’s flood” explanation (if such a theory even exists and this isn’t anything more than another obnoxious liberal hoax), I invite them to publish it far and wide.  Bad theories, like mushrooms, grow best in the dark.

JG:

It really doesn’t get more racist than that.

If Malkin’s scholarship is as bad as you describe (I reserve judgment till when and if I take enough interest to look into it), then “It really doesn’t get more pathetic than that” would hold.  On the other hand, if you are misrepresenting her sources (knowing you, I’m afraid that this is pretty likely), it wouldn’t be the first “non-pc” book you libs have “new-speaked” into a racist tome…

I did not say it was right or the proper thing to do, from 60 years remove from the events, it is you who are denigrating their sacrifice. You and your fellow travelers on the left are using the tragic events of that time to advance YOUR political and social cause. Why do you hate your own racial group so much. Why are YOU pissing on their graves and casting away the honor they fought for. Even knowing that at home their families were being treated badly, they overcame and triumphed, and you throw it all away for socialism. How sad, how pathetic, how typical.

Naturally, I disagree, Carrick.

Think about what Maglalang is trying to do here.  She’s deliberately trying to revise a very racist and tragically wrong event in our history into something good and/or noble.  That’s bad by itself.

Maglalang takes it to another level by than suggesting we repeat these actions again against another group of US citizens.

In your example, that’s one person behaving badly with scarcely any impact on anyone.  Maglalang is attempting to revise history and impact future policy.

David Irving and Michelle Malkin are about on par when it comes to ahistorical whitewashes. 

And comparing the fisking of Malkin by Mueller to a pie in the face is the real bullshit here.

Of course, nobody has suggested Maglalang’s racist tome be banned.

What has been suggested is that it not be retailed at a US Govt. site commemorating the US victims of a terrible injustice.

Let’s see if Rob can tell the difference between banning and inappropriate forums.

Rob says he has a young daughter.  Would Rob have any objections if, say, the novel Candy by Terry Southern were available in her classroom library or offered to her for sale as part of a retail scholastic books program?

Its pretty damn sad that Hus, who tells us time and again about how his libertarian ideals support all sorts of freedoms, sets those ideals aside to support the banning of a book he doesn’t agree with.

By the way, I wasn’t comparing the fisking of Malkin’s book to a pie in the face, I’m comparing the banning of Malkin’s book to the same.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

2Hotel9,

The point that puts the lie to the whole internment issue is the thousands of Japanese-Americans who, even after internment and seizure of homes and businesses, joined the US military and served with distinction.

And what does that say of the draft-resisters then? 

BTW, you should probably note that only Japanese citizens were interred.  Americans of Japanese descent were deported to other states.  However, due to the racism of the state governments of the states that they were deported to, most deportees were put into camps.

I don’t see why people are acting as if the left is trying to ban Maglalang’s book from the entire country.  So what if one bookstore refuses to sell it?  I don’t think it really belongs there anyway, but that’s just my opinion.  I’d like to find out how Japanese Americans feel on this subject.

2Hotel9,

I believe that most of the “Japanese-American” units were made up of, well, draftees. 

Government coercion was at the base of their efforts to join.

______________________________________

Its pretty damn sad that Rob and his ilk are willing to defend a book that they likely have never read, on a subject that they likely know very little about, just because Malkin happens to be a “conservative.”

Here is Mueller and Robinson’s fisking of Malkin: http://www.isthatlegal.org/Muller_and_Robinson_on_Malkin.html

Agree with it or not, Malkin’s book represents one perspective on the history of internment in this country.  The bookstore of a museum dedicated to that very same internment is pretty much the most appropriate place for it to be sold.

If a museum is supposed to be about history why not present all sides?  Unless, of course, one were to actually believe that Malkin’s book is akin to holocaust denial, which is just plain silly.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

If a museum is supposed to be about history why not present all sides?

Think you can convince the Holocaust Museum to carry David Irving’s book?  What about The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

The fact is Maglalang’s book is no different than Holocaust denial; in some respects it’s worse in that it advocates repeating the injustice.

"forced encampment”

Malkin is a conservative hero.  Therefore, anything that she does is ok with conservatives.  Its the basic groupthink that one sees in liberals when they discuss say, Michael Moore.

However, the fact is that her book is a thinly researched, largely plagiarized effort to defend the deportation and eventual encampment of numerous American citizens due to their skin color.

Rob conveniently adopts a post-modernist mind-set when he likes to.

Rob,

Its pretty damn sad that Hus, who tells us time and again about how his libertarian ideals support all sorts of freedoms, sets those ideals aside to support the banning of a book he doesn’t agree with.

The book isn’t “banned” you knucklehead.  It wouldn’t be sold at a park.  You can continue to order that tripe on Amazon.com to your heart’s content. 

Imagine the following: a monument to the astronauts who landed on the moon and a bookshop next to it that is part of the park which encloses the monument.  Now imagine that bookshop selling books which claim that the moonshot did not indeed happen. 

By the way, I wasn’t comparing the fisking of Malkin’s book to a pie in the face, I’m comparing the banning of Malkin’s book to the same.

No, calling for the book not to be allowed at the bookstore is akin to calling for a book questioning the moonshot not being at the analogous bookstore. 

I’m sorry, but not every view, no matter how moonbat it is, has to be represented at such a facility. 

Agree with it or not, Malkin’s book represents one perspective on the history of internment in this country.

Merely because it is a perspective doesn’t mean that it is a remotely factual one.  Again, given your moronic line of reasoning, we would be including the book questioning the moonshot in the bookstore honoring the lives of the astronauts going to the moon. 

If a museum is supposed to be about history why not present all sides?

No.  A museum is supposed to represent the truth.  “All sides” at a holocaust museum according to your stupid logic would include a book by David Irving. 

The only reason you are defending Malkin’s book is because you’re a Republican.  You’ve never read it.  You know nothing about the issue.  You are ignorant of the entire affair.  As such I find that I can easily discount any claim that you might make on the matter.  You reek of ignorance in fact.

Rob,

Did you support the censor of the original Enola Gay display at the Smithsonian?  Did you know that many Republicans did?  Are those Howard Dean Republicans? 

Let’s note that the display which was eventually thrown out was actually grounded in the historical record, unlike Malkin’s book, which isn’t.

Or non-answer.  He tends to duck out when things get difficult.

I’m going to love to see Rob’s answer.

Note that Malkin’s book basically is balanced on a very thin reed.  She argues that because some decrypted messages exist that must have been the reason why FDR, etc. ordered the deportation.  The decrypts aren’t actually cited in any of the material leading to the decision though nor is there any evidence that FDR or any other decision-maker ever read them.  Nor are the decrypts remotely as conclusive as Malkin tries to protray them to be.

Rob,

Its pretty damn sad that you let your party loyalty get ahead of your brain. 

If somebody writes a book taking a stance you don’t agree with on a controversial subject, push to get it banned.

Of course, the book isn’t being pushed to be “banned.”

At a holocaust memorial I would not support David Irving’s book being present if the administrators choose not to allow its presence.  Would you Rob?

A question for the folks who post here:  In the heat of what has become a very polarized political season in this country, have we lost all sense of propriety?  Are we seriously debating whether Malkin’s book should be offered for sale at the Manzanar site?

This is the National Park Service’s call and whichever way it goes is fine with me.  But to posit that Malkin is being ‘banned’ or treated unfairly is ludicrous.  The hardcore social conservatives here are always yammering about the rights of business owners being infringed, etc.  And now you want to make the case Malkin’s 1st Ammendment rights are being violated if the book is taken off the shelf at Manzanar?  Hogwash.

Regards…

The hardcore social conservatives here are always yammering about the rights of business owners being infringed, etc.

Well, I’m not sure what being a social conservative has to do with business rights, but this issue certainly doesn’t have anything to do with small business rights.  Its a government-owned bookstore.

And, really, I’m just pointing out yet another rather typical display of liberal tolerance.  They don’t like what Malkin’s book says so they don’t want people buying it.  The fact that its on sale at other places in this country isn’t relevant to the situation.

Aside from Jadegold (and other’s) rather ridiculous claim that this book is somehow akin to holocaust denial, is there any good reason why the book shouldn’t be sold at the bookstore?

At a holocaust memorial I would not support David Irving’s book being present if the administrators choose not to allow its presence. Would you Rob?

Well, I’m not familiar with Irving’s work but from the way you’ve framed the question I have to assume that it has to do with holocaust denial.  Which, if that assumption is true, of course I’d be against it.  The holocaust did happen, denying that it didn’t is stupid.

But Malkin’s book cannot be compared to holocaust denial.  She isn’t denying that the internment happened but is rather putting for the idea that there may have been some good reasons for it.  That’s not a stance I entirely agree with but neither do I see it as grounds for keeping it out of any bookstore, especially the bookstore of a museum dedicated to the very subject the book is about.

Why are some of you so against a free exchange of ideas in this instance?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob,

You are not aware of one of the most controversial books of the past decade or so?  Are you aware of Irving’s lawsuit against his detractors? 

But Malkin’s book cannot be compared to holocaust denial.

Actually it can be.  But as you HAVEN’T READ IT, how the hell would you know?

She isn’t denying that the internment...

It was a deportation.  Only Japanese citizens were interred.  The two are very different legal concepts. 

...happened but is rather putting for the idea that there may have been some good reasons for it.

And there were none of course.  She is denying basic historical reality.  Her position is about as credible as some moonbat individual claiming that no one landed on the moon. 

That’s not a stance I entirely agree...

You wouldn’t know either way because you are completely ignorant of the facts of the events in question. 

I am not opposed to the free exchange of ideas.  I am also not particularly bothered by a bookstore, even at a national park site, not carrying a book which conflicts with reality.

You are not aware of one of the most controversial books of the past decade or so?

Irving’s book, Hitler’s War argued that Hitler wasn’t such a bad sort and never ordered the mass extermination of Jews.  When critics began questioning Irving’s thesis--Irving took it a step further and said the Holocaust was a hoax.

Irving then sued a critic, American historian Deborah Lipstadt in British courts where libel laws are nearly completely in favor of the plaintiff. Irving lost badly.

It should be pointed out Christopher Hitchens assisted Irving in his suit.

It was a deportation. Only Japanese citizens were interred. The two are very different legal concepts.

The two are very different legal concepts and you’ve got ‘em reversed.

But as you HAVEN’T READ IT, how the hell would you know?

Have you read the book?  I’m guessing that you haven’t either.  I haven’t, but I’ve read enough reviews from people who’s opinions I respect to feel safe in saying that comparisons to holocaust denial are rather silly.

I am not opposed to the free exchange of ideas.

Except in the case of works where you’ve subjectively judged the content to be deficient.

Where are your libertarian ideals now?  They sure seem to fly out the window when you come up against some opinions you don’t like.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Rob,

Anyway, I’ll be more than to support its presence there, as long as you support the presence of David Irving’s book at Auschwitz.  That they are about as equally accurate in their portrayal of the historical record, that ought to be a nice trade off.  Oh wait, you don’t support the latter.  Now wait a second.  Where was this business about “open debate?”

Yes, I have read the book.  In a day.  Its junk.  Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of the events in question realizes this from the start.  You see, unlike some people, I read the fucking shit that I make claims about. 

I haven’t, but I’ve read enough reviews from people who’s opinions I respect to feel safe in saying that comparisons to holocaust denial are rather silly.

Who are these reviewers?  I’d like to read some of these reviews. Yeah, that’s me calling bullshit, ad changer. 

Her book is as ahistorical as any book that denies the holocaust.  That the subject matter of the books differ is no matter.  Her book is as blatantly ahistorical as a book which claims that the moon landing did not happen.  That you try to compare the subject matters as opposed to the veracity of their claims is just, well, fucking dumb. 

Except in the case of works where you’ve subjectively judged the content to be deficient.

“Subjectively judged?” Sorry, its not subjectively judged.  But as you have never read it, how the fuck would you know?  You don’t.  You write out of complete ignorance and are completely unqualified to speak to this issue.  As such, your comments are meaningless tripe. 

Where are your libertarian ideals now? They sure seem to fly out the window when you come up against some opinions you don’t like.

Exactly where they have always been.  Libertarianism doesn’t mean supporting lies after all.  Your values do though as long as the liar is supporting your party.

Let’s note at this point you have given me no reason to accept Malkin’s claims as worthy of debate.  Indeed, in no way have you undermined my statements as to the nature of her book.  You continue to act as if there is some value to her book.  That it is a worthy portion of a “real debate.” Yet no “real debate” exists.  What exists is your stupid partisan interests. 

What one has here is a book which is as historically accurate as a book which claims that men did not land on the moon, that the Earth was created ~6,500 years ago, that the holocaust didn’t occur, or that the Soviet Gulags were nice places.  Yet it has become the cause célèbre of Republicans who claim that they believe in things like property rights and the right to due process (they don’t and never have) yet are willing to throw all those things out the window whenever a war might be on.  Now, you tell me who is living up to their values?  The libertarian or the Republican when the libertarian questions the veracity of such a book and states that it need not be placed in a memorial’s bookstore?  I’d say the libertarian is. 

When you can provide me with one iota of evidence that I should believe Malkin’s crackpot story, show it to me.  Until then I suggest that you stop embarressing yourself with your stupendous displays of ignorance.

Hus, you are a simple minded fuck. Go grow up. Get a clue. They are fairly cheap, you need only use your mind. No pyshical effort needed.

How many pages? What are the major points of contention, in relation to the established"facts" of the matter. Who, What, When, and Where. A simple, concise, summary will do. Keeping in mind I have the tome in question on the counter beside me. Right now. FedEx dropped it, along with a pile of other books I had on order.

Where was this business about “open debate?�

Well, I’ve certainly been letting you have free reign in the comment section here.  That’s pretty open.  You posted nine freaking comments in a row on this thread alone.

And you keep coming back to this idea that I can’t comment on a book banning because I haven’t read the book.  What does that matter?  I can see what the score is: You and others don’t like the book, you want to prevent it from being sold.  Easy enough, though a rather sad commentary for somebody who is a self-professed libertarian.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

Yeah, that’s me calling bullshit, ad changer.

I assume that you’re referring to the “Blow Away Liberals” (or whatever it read) ad on my sidebar?  For the record, I can’t control those.  I can cancel the ad and/or email the advertiser to request a chance...but I can’t change content.

Nice of you to make that assumption though.  Do you always jump to conclusions like this?

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.

-- Thomas Jefferson

Rob’s recently listened-to songs:

And you keep coming back to this idea that I can’t comment on a book banning because I haven’t read the book.-Rob

It’s kind of like his,"you can’t comment about the war if you don’t fight” comments.

What? that was Coward*?

Oh. Man, I get these trolls confused.

Son of America

*I have replaced JG’s name with the word coward because he is a better defination of the word than the word itself.

that should be definition

"It was a deportation. Only Japanese citizens were interred.”

Answer: That’s “interned”.

Internment camps were run by the Department of Justice and held only enemy aliens who had been deemed security risks and their U.S. citizen family members who were allowed at their choice to stay with them. Internees included 10,995 Germans, 16, 849 Japanese (5,589 who voluntarily renounced U.S. citizenship and became enemy aliens), 3,278 Italians, 52 Hungarians, 25 Romanians, 5 Bulgarians, and 161 classified as “otherâ€?.  Only a small fraction of enemy aliens were interned. Japanese citizens with families were sent to Crystal City, Texas and lived side-by-side with German and Italian families. Single men were sent to internment camps in other states. Not all enemy aliens were placed in internment camps, and no American citizen was forcefully placed in an internment camp. If you were interned it was determined that you, a spouse or parent was an enemy alien and a security risk.

It should be noted that all 16,849 Japanese enemy-aliens including the 5,589 that renounced American citizenship were eligible for an apology from the United States and a $20,000 reparations payment while the Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians received nothing.

"The point that puts the lie to the whole internment issue is the thousands of Japanese-Americans who, even after internment and seizure of homes and businesses, joined the US military and served with distinction.”

Answer: 5% of Japanese Amerian men of fighting age volunteeted to serve. The other 95% sat the war out or openly supported the enemy.

"When you can provide me with one iota of evidence that I should believe Malkin’s crackpot story, show it to me.”

Answer: 
http://www.athenapressinc.com/smithsonian/Appendix3.html

Malkin’s story “in Defense of Internment” is worse than crackpot- it is wishful thinking by Malkin. In the introduction Malkin says that the book is based on what-if this had happened and that had happened- and about 20 more major what-ifs and some smaller what-ifs- the rest of the book is pure fiction because there is always some prt that is based on Malkin’s imagination.